Please Restrict tank classes from wearing strength jewelry.

I don't understand why the devs decided to revert the Vit changes from HW. It seemed everyone was happy with that decision, so why fix what wasn't broke? I guess Tenacity was supposed to fix that? But I've read in a few places that it doesn't scale well..at all.

Yeah, it was a bad move to try and roll back this VIT change before they were actually ready to do it (as in, fix all the 1-60 accessories too)

You'd think they would have, you know, learned something from Legacy release. Guess not.

Just to be clear, VIT have nothing to do with surviving pulls.... if he is dying from 3 adds, his mitigation is the problem, not the lack of 10k~ hp from not using Vit Acces

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Originally Posted by Shyle

I don't understand why the devs decided to revert the Vit changes from HW. It seemed everyone was happy with that decision, so why fix what wasn't broke? I guess Tenacity was supposed to fix that? But I've read in a few places that it doesn't scale well..at all.

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According to SE it's because then tanks would have too much HP.
I don't get it either.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

According to SE it's because then tanks would have too much HP.
I don't get it either.

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And then they go and make it so all tanks have to wear VIT accessories if they want to keep their item level up anyway.

Like, why?

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Originally Posted by Ameela

According to SE it's because then tanks would have too much HP.
I don't get it either.

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I think honestly they meant "damage inflation" they have to, the hp excuse is the reason they forced vit on tanks to begin with. in 3.2. Not our fault tanks get a hell of alot of Vit with the accessories added, nor that it has to be higher than the other roles on base gear as well

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Just to be clear, VIT have nothing to do with surviving pulls.... if he is dying from 3 adds, his mitigation is the problem, not the lack of 10k~ hp from not using Vit Acces

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Just because mitigation is important doesn't mean max HP stops being important. It's also a critical factor. If you ran into enough healers on the DF that don't have the greatest reaction times or are otherwise seemingly keen to let you drop to low health before doing anything about it, you'd know this.

Personally, for a pull of just 3 mobs, you shouldn't even have to be using much in the way of mitigation, so I'd say this is due to either massive undergearing on the tank/healer's part or the healer not being attentive.

For me, when I'm in a party I know is capable of handling a larger pull (as in, I know they'll actually AoE and won't take forever to kill doing so), I may do a small pull *because* my good CDs are all down and I don't think a larger pull will be survivable in my current state, and I'm using that as a means to get them back for larger pulls.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Just because mitigation is important doesn't mean max HP stops being important. It's also a critical factor. If you ran into enough healers on the DF that don't have the greatest reaction times or are otherwise seemingly keen to let you drop to low health before doing anything about it, you'd know this.

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Im a healer myself, starting on Tanking just to understand them a little better, thats why i say Vit is not as important as people make it sound, having 30k or 40k Does no difference, My GCD and oGCD restore the same amount of Hp to both, meaning that the Extra Vit is good for the first 3/5 seconds of the fight where im not healing them and just letting them take free dmg, once the Hp drops bellow that Max HP or i have to cast my first heal, it losses its value (This speking about using STR acces Vs Vit ones).

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Just because mitigation is important doesn't mean max HP stops being important. It's also a critical factor. If you ran into enough healers on the DF that don't have the greatest reaction times or are otherwise seemingly keen to let you drop to low health before doing anything about it, you'd know this..

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Which is why this arguement keeps rolling around and around - both sides are fighting strawmen. Imaginary healers and imaginary tanks that support their echo box interpretation of the situation, ignoring the valid points of both sides.

Real tanks - responsible tanks, in a PUG will look at the dungeon content, know it's hazards, examine and test their healer in the opening pull, and weigh up their competence and risks BEFORE they decide what strength/vit ratio they're going to roll with and the size of the pulls they might attempt. Tanking is a stressful enough job without immediately getting the ire of your party right out the gate by screwing things up by pushing your team beyond their limits.

People are arguing in a vacuum about how 'Full STR tanks will explode instantly' or how 'healers all DPS when there is a window and a STR tank is blocking them for doing their part' when these situations almost never exist in the real world outsid eof a few incompetent outliers who think they're death and taxes

Why don't they just scale dmg off of VIT and make STR act as a sub-stat for tenacity?

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Why don't they just scale dmg off of VIT and make STR act as a sub-stat for tenacity?

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I really don't know, there is so many ways they could fix this - Desync tank damage from STR like in 3.X, change how VIT-to-HP scale works for tanks, lock tanks to just 1 type of jewelry which has a preset balance of STR and VIT. They control all the variables the 'HP scaling' is a pretty poor arguement.

But they need to be aware that if they keep trying to nerf tank damage, then it's going to drive away a lot of tank players. PLD's might've rolled their class purely for tanking, but WAR came for the fell cleaves, take away the big numbers and they're going to follow them elsewhere. I don't really understand why they WANT Tanks to do low damage; afterall the number of tanks in a party is limited and you can scale the boss HP on the assumption the tank is dealing DPS-level damage and it won't change a thing, except making the tank feel less like an overglorified target backstop.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

Why don't they just scale dmg off of VIT and make STR act as a sub-stat for tenacity?

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Because designing dungeons and raids around the healer/tank/dps trinity is very easy, (hence why it's the MMO standard), but balancing the damage a tank should be able to output is a nut no game designer has ever cracked. And the FFXIV team is spectacularly hostile to public beta testing, for some reason.

They're probably going to whether you want it or not. Now the question is whether they'll fix tenacity.

They should go and either make VIT cover the majority of a tanks scaling or throw a decent sized chunk of STR on the vit accessories.

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Real tanks - responsible tanks, in a PUG will look at the dungeon content, know it's hazards, examine and test their healer in the opening pull, and weigh up their competence and risks BEFORE they decide what strength/vit ratio they're going to roll with and the size of the pulls they might attempt. Tanking is a stressful enough job without immediately getting the ire of your party right out the gate by screwing things up by pushing your team beyond their limits.

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Tell me how many of these you run into in the DF, compared to the ones that just go gung-ho without caring. I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Tell me how many of these you run into in the DF, compared to the ones that just go gung-ho without caring. I'll wait.

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Every single dungeon since Stormblood <.<

...I don't meet a lot of tanks outside of my own FC and the formal tank 'community'. There's only 1 tank per party in most dungeons and therefore it's usually me.

So you really don't have any actual scope of the problem, yet you still feel compelled to talk about it like you do. Okay.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

They should go and either make VIT cover the majority of a tanks scaling or throw a decent sized chunk of STR on the vit accessories.

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the former over the latterr imo. Otherwise DPS would just pick up those accessories, probably. Then again, Tenacity is just gross, so probably not.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

So you really don't have any actual scope of the problem, yet you still feel compelled to talk about it. Okay.

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Well to listen to YOU talk, I don't exist!

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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Assuming you're not exaggerating about how fast that happened, this has nothing to do with what jewelry they were wearing.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Assuming you're not exaggerating about how fast that happened, this has nothing to do with what jewelry they were wearing.

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yeah something else is very wrong here.

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Well to listen to YOU talk, I don't exist!

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I never said that.

What I am saying is that if you think the number of tanks out there who actually carry both VIT and STR gear and actually properly weigh what to use in each and every instance they join, outweighs the number of tanks out there who don't give a rat's ass and will just use whatever they want, whilst blaming "incompetent healers" for whatever extra deaths they receive as a result of their STR gear... you're deluding yourself. Which is easier to do, when you're a tank yourself and you don't get to see what other tanks are like except in the 8-mans, and even then, unless you do the extreme/savage content, the OT is pretty much a ghetto DPS most of the time and you're not really seeing how they are behaving in a situation where they actually have to tank stuff.

I still have absolutely zero comprehension on why SE rolled back this change before it was ready to be rolled back. All of this should never have even been an issue after it got left behind in 2.x (or was it early 3.x? I forget exactly when it happened), yet here we are, again. The dead horse has returned as a grotesque zombie.

I'm really sad that they removed parry.

Means I can't call full vit tanks "parry princesses". :(

(And I say this as someone who can't be assed using str accessories this expansion)

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Originally Posted by Demise

Susano EX can already oneshot them nicely within the first 30 seconds of the fight if Asail(? The telegraphed tank buster) or the auto attack after it crits. Bad tanks are more likely to not mitigate it because it's not as obvious as Stormsplitter.

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You're right it's not telegraphed but as a DRK you can eat it out of Grit easily, Shadow Wall + TBN makes it hit for 7kish, you can just hop into Grit for the last one and time another TBN + Reprisal and it'll hit for 11k. Bad tanks that can't mitigate will continue to be bad and bad str tanks that eat it all with nothing again will be bad it's not just a str or vit tank thing a good tank will survive it easier than a bad one and it's really noticeable.

What really makes me mad is that if people mess the lightning marker mechanic as a tank with 4/5 STR accessories I will die, won't deny that so I hope these changes here soon eliminates stuff like that because it's honestly ridiculous and I don't feel tanky at all. I just want my HP and damage to compliment each other I rolled with str tanking in Gordias and end of ARR honestly didn't like it but I adapt whether I like it or not.

I've met only a few of them. Some wear STR during boss only, so do I. On trash pull I wear vit gear. But yea was 1 tank I had that was using it on trash pull and boss, he was actually good so dpsing as whm wasn't as bad, it was in fact easier to heal him than most vit tanks.

Party DPs is more important than individual DPS.

If a Tank wears full STR accessories, healers have to stop DPSing, therefore the minimal gain of a Tank doesn't compensate the full DPS loss from a healer who can outDPS a tank if done correctly.

Everybody loses.

We will see. Right now with the unwanted WAR at least holmganging a mechanic every 3 min or 2x every 3 min with 2x WAR is not a thing anymore in every group.

We'll see. I still think that in Alexander savage STR tanks (with no VIT acc) wouldn't have been very succesfull, even if they had a +15% damage buff when doing that.

Why should it be different now?

I mean, proof me wrong and do a no-echo ilvl 245 clear in slaying gear in A9s and tell me if it's easier or more effective than going full VIT.


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And of course it's better to have tanks being able to drop down more than 'need 1-2 heals to be topped off', simple because of crits.

If I have to heal a tank at 15k health (because ofincomming TB) and he is missing 15k health a crit almost always results in overheal (i.e. wasted free eHP).

When I can let him drop to 15k health with 25k missing health you actually get a gain if your next heal crits for 20k and you safe healing GCDs.
The bigger the gap between a minimum of HP and the max. HP, the better and more often a healer can utilize occuring crits for less healing GCDs (and eHP of Benediction and Divine Bension is higher, but that's only minor).

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And then when people actually do that and complain about the queues, the same people that told them to play a DPS then end up telling them to just play a tank/healer if they dislike the queues.

You just can't win there.

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Yeah thats called a trade off. Cant cake eat - nonsensical saying to get a point across.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

AoE is the only place the arguement matters since that is where the majority of dungeon time comes from; also, it is the only place in a dungeon where health is a serious issue either way.

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the only time I have concern about tank wearing STR gear are those big trash mob pull
with a larger HP pool, i could just Benefic II/Essential Dignity when the HP drop below a threshold
then continue my Gravity spam

a lower HP pool tank mean I will either over heal with those skills and need to use my big heal more often, or I will have to drop the threshold to a lower level which could be a dangerous move
either way I will have to heal more frequently, it cost me more Mana, cost me more time to drop gravity, or need to use more Essential Dignity or similar oGCD heal (even to a point they are still on CD), or the Tank will have to do smaller pull where it become not worthy to spam gravity and DPS not worth spamming AOE


as for boss fight, i dont feel significant different for a tank to wear VIT or STR gear, since i go DF most of the time, I have to look after the DPS too in boss fight, and i do not think my Malefic will out DPS a tank with STR gear


I would not complain about tank using STR gear, or switch stance, as long as the run is smooth and they done their job, but I definitely prefer a larger HP pool tank with less DPS than a higher DPS tank with lower HP pool in those large pull situations

ITT - People not understanding the concept of EHP, on BOTH sides of the argument.\

"Hurr, more HP does not increase your survivability" Yes it fucking does, it does the same thing your CDs do, increase your EHP. The tradeoff is that you lose dps.

A success of a good mass-pull is not just how the tank acts/is geared and how healer acts/is geared, alot of the burden in those is on dps and how fast they can kill stuff. And that varies GREATLY in DF.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

"Hurr, more HP does not increase your survivability" Yes it fucking does, it does the same thing your CDs do, increase your EHP.

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Technically true, but it increases your survivability by a fixed amount, namely those HP you get from them. It amounts to a little less than one single Benefic II for the healer over the course of the fight. That's fairly negligible.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

"Hurr, more HP does not increase your survivability" Yes it fucking does, it does the same thing your CDs do, increase your EHP.

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It was fun to watch in Omega how one DPS got hit by mechanics and had 68 health afterwards, but survived - with smaller healthpool, he would have been dead. :p

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Party DPs is more important than individual DPS.

If a Tank wears full STR accessories, healers have to stop DPSing, therefore the minimal gain of a Tank doesn't compensate the full DPS loss from a healer who can outDPS a tank if done correctly.

Everybody loses.

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Except wearing str accs doesn't necessarily imply that your healers won't be able to dps. I did a susano ex run with both tanks in full str right side and completely out of tank stance, our healers managed to do around 3k combined healer dps, which is generally more than what they can do with random df tanks who wear full vit and stay in tank stance most of the time. The "minimal" gain on the tanks actually outweigh the "minimal" loss on the healers if the tanks aren't dumb.

I'm not saying that you should wear str accs when learning new contents though, that 12k extra hp is a ridiculously big safety net for when things go wrong, and in progression, many things will. Full str tanking with no tank stance requires you to map every single tank buster or cleave and let your healers know how you or the other tank plan to mitigate it. It may also require more tank swaps than forced by the encounter, like splitting the assails in susano ex first phase to reduce the healing burden, and obviously not eating churning deep when you're tanking.

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Originally Posted by Kaelk

/sarcasm At the same time, lets make it so healers can't DPS. I was tanking a dungeon last night leveling my PLD and died twice due to not receiving sufficient heals because my WHM was too busy casting Aero.

In all seriousness however, that did happen. However, as annoying as it was, I adjusted, re-positioned Convalescence and Clemency to be more easily accessed, kept better watch on my mitigation cooldowns, and we completed the dungeon.

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So what you are saying is that people should adapt to other not playing their role and not the latest actually playing their role?

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

"Cus my DPS!" or so they may say. Personally I think it should be restricted to VIT accessories only. Eventually we will gain enough ilv that they will be forced to remove the STR and I can't see them drop several ilvs just to put them back on in a dungeon or make it that you can't swap accessories if you were to fall below ilv

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everything was fine the way it was before they removed ap scaling from vit cuz tanks were outdpsing awful dps even though warrior has been doing this since 2.0

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Originally Posted by Arutan

So what you are saying is that people should adapt to other not playing their role and not the latest actually playing their role?

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Gee tanks that have to tank and not try and out dps the dps, and healers who have to heal rather then spending most of their time dps'ing and watching their parser numbers. What a novel idea.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

people "I need the dps for hate." No you don't if SE will just keep adjusting Savage Blade
Enmity effect has been increased. Flash
Enmity effect has been increased.It is just as easy for them to adjust that. In fact it keeps tanks better off since you get the hate increase automatically with patch while dps have to gear.

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Increasing enmity modifiers every time dps get stronger gear options isn't really a solution. Or if it is, it's a really bad one.

I'm sure you do love your 30min queues, your going to experience 50min queues if you guys continue, none of you play tanks or want to and you want to pressure the most underplayed and important role because you want 1 extra holy?

Remember when you make your bed you eventually have to lay in it.

I just think its absolutely hilarious that the entire argument for wanting STR on Fending accessories boils down to:
I want to do more dps for the sake of doing more dps.

Is the lack of STR right side preventing you from clearing content due to tight DPS checks? Nope.

By all means, optimize your DPS, push yourself to get your rotation as perfect as possible, But understand that there is a ceiling on your damage dictated by gear. The same ceiling that DDs have. We don't see DDs on the forums screeching for more DPS because they just want bigger numbers.
The developers screwed the DPS checks in Heavensward, they admitted that.
The reason we got the VIT AP scaling was SE slapping down the STR Tanks and forcing them to wear VIT gear without breaking their ability to clear the overtuned Savages they admit to having broken.

You'll never convince me to cut up to 12k HP off myself to push out a measly 500 dps more. I don't care what the 'Meta' wants me to do. I'll Tank in the way that i feel most comfortable doing so.
If your Static wants to use STR accessories to squeeze that lil extra dps out, go for it. What you do in your own static is entirely up to you and what you've worked out with your friends.
But for random parties? Just play it safe. A run with no wipes will always be faster than wiping because there was a disconnect between the Tank and Healers expectations of each other.

If Tanks end up requiring a damage boost to clear content, The best way to handle it is to increase the Tenacity effect accordingly. But for as long as the reason people want more STR is "i wanna do bigger numbers cos i like big numbers", nothing is going to happen.

The biggest problem is that SE half-assed the fix. They obviously want tanks to wear VIT accessories. All higher-level STR accessories are restricted from being worn by tanks, so that really does seem to be the path SE is aiming for: all VIT, all the time. But then they went and left older STR accessories equipable... That was just dumb.

But just because SE wants tanks to wear all VIT doesn't mean that it's the best way to play this game. A good tank will wear enough VIT to survive whatever is thrown at them, and not a scrap more. Just as Accuracy used to be, any amount beyond what is necessary is a waste of stats. A tank who's already surviving anything the enemies throw at them has satisfied their survivability requirement. Their next priorities are enmity and DPS. There's no equipment that will directly enhance enmity, so that can't be geared for. There IS equipment that enhances DPS - and as a side benefit, enhancing DPS ALSO enhances enmity. Logically, once a tank has enough VIT, they should pile on the STR.

Arguing that you should have more of a HP cushion, just in case the healer is bad, is a terrible argument - by that logic, DPS should pile on ilvl 270 VIT gear, just in case the healer is bad. After all, a dead DPS doesn't deal any damage at all! No, all equipment decisions should be made on the assumption that your party members are competent.

As for the example in the original post, that's not an example of STR accessories being a bad thing. It is an example of a bad tank, who has not filled their survivability requirement before swapping a few pieces out for STR.