LOLSE, We're not wearing 270 STR to hold hate, c'mon now...

Yeah it's always bothered me that the Greatsword and Greataxe did less damage then other weapons when the standard for those weapons was they were slower but hit a fuckton harder. But in XIV they hit like a wet noodle.

I don't know how to feel.
On the one hand, I've always tanked defensively- I don't mind doing heavy mitigation and recovery as the focus. But on the other hand, if they wanted that to be the focus, they shouldn't have spent practically all of the last expac letting people get a taste of all that damage. Even if I don't play that way, it's their own fault for attracting people to the role with something and then pulling the rug out.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I don't need to repeat how pointless excelling in binary requirements is. Anyone worth their tanking salt should be aware of it by now.

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You're not excelling at binary requirement. You just put a lot of strain on your healer, narrowing his contribution for your own personal satisfaction, and probably put the blame of him if you die, even if you perfectly managed your cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're not excelling at binary requirement. You just put a lot of strain on your healer, narrowing his contribution for your own personal satisfaction, and probably put the blame of him if you die, even if you perfectly managed your cooldowns.

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Sorry the amount of hp you have doesn't actually make you harder or easier to heal. That's why vit accessories are useless. They literally do nothing for you. Hp has always been (and always will be) like how accuracy was. You only need "enough" and anything more than that is completely useless.

Going back to your first comment, no people who only prioritize vit won't be considered good right now, because there are people that can tank damn well and do solid damage, so you're never going to look as good as them of you only prioritize one.

By end of the day, Tanks have 2 options, one that allows for more (and often unneeded) amounts of HP, and another that gives near to none (adding VIT) HP but a very substantial power boost despite being 50 ilvls lower.

Of course most will go for the power boost for sure...

Even if battles are designed with an infinite loop of tank busters 100ilvls ahead, people will have 0~4 VIT accessories and rest the i270 STR ones so long they have enough HP to survive :/

Not making the VIT accessories 50+ ilvls higher to the i270 STR ones desirable at all is definitely a flawed design...

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I did not actually mean that. I mean damage from healers is nerfed compared what it was before and even vitality geared tank can surpass current healers dps. Back in days if tank used vitality gear, healer surpassed tanks dps.

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It is nerfed in the sense that a healer in cleric would out dps a healer now, but without the need to stance dance with cleric gone, over the course of the actual fight (and to bridge the gap between the best and the bottom) the dps should be similar to or greater in 4.0.

As a result of the removal of cleric you can't really compared tank damage to healer damage in 4.0 to 3.0. (Note they do not design any fight/job to have a healer or a tank in dps stance basically 100% of the time, that is just something that can be done when groups perform at max level)

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

They could, but if tank stats become important then they'd have to start balancing around tank stats, which would again mean that if Jimmy Spellspeed the poorly melded paladin tries to tank something he'll get clobbered. I wish they actually would do stuff like that, but whattayagonnado. Game's super casual in all the bad ways.

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No they don't. They just need to make Tenacity give like -10% damage reduction when stacked (which wouldn't be so different from Storm's Path), which still requires tanks to use their CDs but also saves healer GCDs. Right now it's around -5%? Not totally worthless, but not worth taking. As far I know they didn't balance bosses around Storm's Path, so Storm's Path just made everything a bit easier.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

if the job is no longer "fun" because "mah deeps" I dont see that as a valid concern.

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Why not? I have no idea why you put fun in quotes. Fun is subjective. And I'll say it right now. Tanking is boring as crap in this game compared to TERA. I can watch Netflix while holding aggro and mitigating damage. You don't think it's a valid concern that certain roles are boring and bland without optimizing DPS? I would never try doing that in TERA, because I would get wrecked as a tank.

Last numbers I saw had Tenacity at 1%. 5%?

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Not making the VIT accessories 50+ ilvls higher to the i270 STR ones desirable at all is definitely a flawed design...

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Truth be told, they might even have thought the VIT accessories "are" desirable. I don't think they really understand their own metagame, I don't think they understand that tanking and healing are innately binary roles that lose all value the very moment the 0 turns into a 1 and the consequences of that fact. I think they truly believe that the trinity is a construct where every pillar is equally important, rather than acknowledging the innate supremacy of damage.

And that's going to cause issues, because optimization now and forever will boil down to: Meet the non-damage demands as necessary, deal damage as much as necessary. Health, healing, mitigation... they're all worthless in surplus. Even if they removed DPS checks from the game entirely, all they'd serve is to drag out battles. With DPS checks, they can't even do that.

Oh well... we'll see how their "solution" will look like.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Last numbers I saw had Tenacity at 1%. 5%?

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Those aren't the latest. Here they are: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...city_datadump/

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Why not? I have no idea why you put fun in quotes. Fun is subjective. And I'll say it right now. Tanking is boring as crap in this game compared to TERA. I can watch Netflix while holding aggro and mitigating damage. You don't think it's a valid concern that certain roles are boring and bland without optimizing DPS? I would never try doing that in TERA, because I would get wrecked as a tank.

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I was going to make a point about the comment you're replying to yesterday but I ended up forgetting, but yeah my reply would have essentially been this. The game being less fun because of less DPS is a perfectly valid concern, imo.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

The game being less fun because of less DPS is a perfectly valid concern, imo.

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... really? I personally never had more fun on the single basis that I did a few more hundred points of DPS. I have fun on the basis of seeing new mechanics, location settings and clearing new content, and progressing the main story. But simply a bit more DPS? Nope. Never.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

I was going to make a point about the comment you're replying to yesterday but I ended up forgetting, but yeah my reply would have essentially been this. The game being less fun because of less DPS is a perfectly valid concern, imo.

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You know, despite being a dps main, I don't understand this mindset. I mean, I'm as happy as can be when I score a 40k Midare crit, don't get me wrong, but not enjoying a job on the basis I don't see five digit numbers all the time...? As a tank, I have the most fun when I'm holding hate in dps stance and shrugging off tank busters, not because "OMG LOOKIT MUH FELL CLEAVE GUYS"! I don't even care about the numbers specifically, I just like shrugging off those hits like so much chump change.

About the only complaints I could see being valid would be inability to hold hate or broken gameplay mechanics, but lower numbers? Only way I could see that being bad is if you prefer prioritizing epeen over clearing content.

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

Those aren't the latest. Here they are: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...city_datadump/

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Nice.

Not as terrible as initially thought but still probably last priority. I am thinking it will Det>Crit/Sks>Tenacity. Though I have no idea about direct hit---sicne our gear has none and the default amount means 0% chance I am guessing Direct hit may be #1 or 2 priority for melds.

If they finally do the right thing and put STR on our accessories meaning we can secondary both sides then I would really see direct hit becoming #1.

A few hundred more dps... it more like 600-800 more dps. My clear time on sss went from 7 secs left to 38 secs left.

This entire thread is cancer.

Please, this change helps "muh deeps"... just not the way you wanted AKA potency increases or mythical str additions

Less time spent using threat moves is more time spent doing deeps. How are people upset by this?

I m totally fine with how SE did to tank damage, if the party can't do the dps check that's on those 4~5 ppl, not tanks' business, even if you are sitting on tank stance and do only aggro combo you are still dojng damage.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a tank, I have the most fun when I'm holding hate in dps stance and shrugging off tank busters, not because "OMG LOOKIT MUH FELL CLEAVE GUYS"! I don't even care about the numbers specifically, I just like shrugging off those hits like so much chump change.

About the only complaints I could see being valid would be inability to hold hate or broken gameplay mechanics, but lower numbers? Only way I could see that being bad is if you prefer prioritizing epeen over clearing content.

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Well the thing is if you can do all that. Hold hate survive tank busters and everything a tank should do AND be able to wear 270 for more dmg then why not. I did both ex lakshmi and ex Susano in i270s while tanking in dps stance. (Shirk OP AF)

I think the problem is in 2 parts. Bad tanks that don't know how to handle having lower HP pool (not using defensive cooldowns) and healers that don't know how to handle a tank with lower HP.

I can understand the rationale behind having HP and damage scale off of separate stats. Every role does this, irrespective of whether they're tank, healer or dps. The solution for tanks is identical to those other jobs: have gear pieces that boost both HP and damage. Left side pieces on all roles boost both. This is not controversial. For some reason, however, the right side is controversial for tanks, in spite of the fact that there's a working standard on every other role in the game.

If the main concern is that tanks won't have enough HP if you use a similar setup to other roles, you have two solutions. Either boost the HP contribution of left side pieces and keep the right side STR only, or make the accessories VIT + STR. If the main concern is that tanks will look at the right side STR contribution and clue into the fact that it's significantly lower than what you see on melee jobs, then just disguise the tank primary damage stat with a new name so that people can't tell that it's weaker. Or better yet, maybe make it so that new tank gear is marginally better than last expansion's dps gear? Either works.

But let's take a moment and talk about the elephant in the room. Players like dealing damage. Anyone who has played a Final Fantasy game previous to this one knows the joy of unlocking a flashy new ability only to unleash a sequence of "9999s" across the screen. There's something viscerally satisfying about it. That's why the devs very deliberately throw in ability combinations like IR into hexacleave, or Requiescat into Holy Spirit spam, or BW/Delirium into chain Bloodspillers, even on non-dps jobs. It's also the reason why every new expansion unveils a new, meatier Stone/Malefic/Broil (stay tuned for 7.0, for the grand reveal of Malefic 6, now with even higher potency and flashier lights). It's operant conditioning at work: press the button to feel good. What better way to draw people in?

The usual counterargument to this is that tanks mustn't concern themselves with dealing damage. It's not your job, you see. You ought to enjoy using your zero damage enmity moves, like a true pacifist. If you really wanted to do damage, shouldn't you really play a dps? This might as well translate to: "If you want to have fun, shouldn't you play a dps?" But perhaps telling the least played role that they ought to switch isn't a particularly good idea.

A lot of this sentiment comes from non-tanks, motivated by the fear that if your tank is doing dps, and your healer is doing dps, then what function do the dps play? So we introduce in discrepancies between the damage dealt by each of the roles and superimpose in systems like enmity to assuage the vocal majority and get everything to work out. But why is tank gameplay design being dictated by non-tanks?

So we run into this situation where tanks are forced to indirectly complain about enmity (which is a direct function of the discrepancy between tank damage output and dps damage output) because they aren't supposed to want to hit things very hard. Likewise, instead of recognising and admitting that these changes in 4.0 were made deliberately to widen the discrepancy between the roles (at the start of a new expansion no less, where the drop in dps is much less obvious to the average player than it would have been mid-expansion), we're talking around the point. Many tanks want to do more damage, and they're being blockaded at every turn in the name of preserving role distinctions within the tank/healer/dps trinity. It's actually pretty fortunate that the STR accessory situation panned out the way that it did, because it gave us a voice to be heard.

The bottom line is this. Some compromises are in order. Most tanks don't want to outdps pure damage dealers. But we also want to feel like our attacks count for something. We want to feel like our attacks get progressively stronger with higher levels of gear. There are many ways to resolve this equitably. But I think the starting point is in acknowledging that there are a significant portion of tanks and healers out there who are passionate about doing damage in addition to their other responsibilities, and instead of stymieing this, facilitate it.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Their design

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At this rate it wouldn't surprise me if they leave it like this and Tanks are stuck with i270 accessories until 6.0 when they implement Materia VIII with +100 STR

This change is dumb. On pld, in a dungeon, those for the change are saying it's ok for me to do nothing? SO > Flash > SoS > Flash > use a CD > wait 10 sec > Flash. That's on trash and bosses. There is literally no incentive to dps because my dps doesn't matter anyway. Tank gear is now for ilvl and glamour.

Why is it that proper tanking isn't a reward enough?

I've seen tanks wipe raids in LakEx and SusyEx because they failed at mechanics. They failed to tank swap or perhaps turned a cleave on the raid. It seems most tanks on this forum don't attribute this activity as helping, when they should. A Tank's (major) contribution is the flawless execution of the bosses mechanics and damage as to save the raid from being one shot by the boss and maximize the raid's damage against the boss.

Yes, we definitely need to do SOME damage, but the 100% focus on dps is truly infuriating to me. We can't ALL be big member DPS. This game is a holy trinity MMO. We, the tanks, are there to soak damage, position mobs/bosses, ensure the raid or group stays safe, and throw in some damage.

The problem is, and has been, an attitude problem with the PLAYERS. The changes to accessories is an attempt to force a change in that attitude. Either change your thoughts, or change your class.

Your choice.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

Why is it that proper tanking isn't a reward enough?

I've seen tanks wipe raids in LakEx and SusyEx because they failed at mechanics. They failed to tank swap or perhaps turned a cleave on the raid. It seems most tanks on this forum don't attribute this activity as helping, when they should. A Tank's (major) contribution is the flawless execution of the bosses mechanics and damage as to save the raid from being one shot by the boss and maximize the raid's damage against the boss.Yes, we definitely need to do SOME damage, but the 100% focus on dps is truly infuriating to me. We can't ALL be big member DPS. This game is a holy trinity MMO. We, the tanks, are there to soak damage, position mobs/bosses, ensure the raid or group stays safe, and throw in some damage.

The problem is, and has been, an attitude problem with the PLAYERS. The changes to accessories is an attempt to force a change in that attitude. Either change your thoughts, or change your class.

Your choice.

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You are describing the bare minimum, that's why.

All those things are required to play tank. If you can't do them, you can't tank. Those are the bare minimum requirements to play the role.

What separates the great tanks from the marginal ones is how much DPS they add to the group while accomplishing their role. When the goal is to kill the enemy any extra DPS that can be found anywhere is a huge bonus.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

We want to feel like our attacks get progressively stronger with higher levels of gear.

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That's all there is to it...
Sure it doesn't feel good to do less damage than 6-8 months ago but if the tank dps nerf was really consistent across the board, there wouldn't be an issue since everybody would be playing with the same handicap.
The fact that the i270 STR accessories are still available to tanks is a huge oversight because not everyone can afford passing on 25% HP for 20-25% dmg increase, increasing the gap between players.

Second point is the gear progression as your mentioned... whether upgraded through tomestone grinding or raid drops, all gear upgrade should feel like a reward and help you perform better in content. Getting a Savage accessories lets say after 5 weeks of clears to get a 300 HP boost and marginal dps increase (hello tenacity) just feels bad... whereas any dps or healer will feel happy getting an upgrade.


having 270 STR accessories > 320 pentamelded VIT > 340 VIT from savage is just wrong...

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Originally Posted by Falar

You are describing the bare minimum, that's why.

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That is an attitude that you, and seemingly others, are imposing on yourselves. It's NOT the bare minimum. YOU feel like SE's attempts to control tank DPS is negatively impacting the job. I'm here to tell you that your attitude is the problem, not SE.

Hell, I'm not even knocking trying to increase your damage as a tank. I used to do it in WoW Legion all the time. The bottom line, however, was that I wasn't that worried about dps to succeed. I wasn't SUPPOSED to. The DPS had to do their job (big numbahs), and any short-fallings thereof was for THEM to correct, not me. I contributed by healing myself for more, by mitigating damage better as to bring FEWER healers to a raid and more DPS, by following mechanics perfectly, and by adding my admittedly small dps numbers. (in WoW it's not uncommon to have DPS at 1/2 to 1/3 of the worst dps in your raid.)

In FFXIV people like yourself have taken the DPS optimization ideal to the ultimate extreme, and it's a really ugly look. SE's choices are clearly trying to steer you away from this mindset... yet tanks resist like a child throwing a temper tantrum in the mall. Mom (SE) will wait till they are done, I'm sure.

Either it's time to accept the changing times of what SE wants, or change jobs. It's that simple.

I guess the question is, how hard do you find tanking? Is moving a boss really that difficult? Or using a cd when you see a cast bar? Following a mechanic? How does a player measure personal progress as a tank? Just hp pool? That's dull. But if these forums and PF are any indication, it looks like people are following your advice.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

That is an attitude that you, and seemingly others, are imposing on yourselves. It's NOT the bare minimum. YOU feel like SE's attempts to control tank DPS is negatively impacting the job. I'm here to tell you that your attitude is the problem, not SE.Hell, I'm not even knocking trying to increase your damage as a tank. I used to do it in WoW Legion all the time. The bottom line, however, was that I wasn't that worried about dps to succeed. I wasn't SUPPOSED to. The DPS had to do their job (big numbahs), and any short-fallings thereof was for THEM to correct, not me. I contributed by healing myself for more, by mitigating damage better as to bring FEWER healers to a raid and more DPS, by following mechanics perfectly, and by adding my admittedly small dps numbers. (in WoW it's not uncommon to have DPS at 1/2 to 1/3 of the worst dps in your raid.)

In FFXIV people like yourself have taken the DPS optimization ideal to the ultimate extreme, and it's a really ugly look. SE's choices are clearly trying to steer you away from this mindset... yet tanks resist like a child throwing a temper tantrum in the mall. Mom (SE) will wait till they are done, I'm sure.

Either it's time to accept the changing times of what SE wants, or change jobs. It's that simple.

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Spoken like a true DPS. So SE wants us to tone down our gameplay a few notches to "casual" and you want us to oblige? No thanks.



Any dummy can get out of the AoEs and pop a CD when a cast bar appears.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Sorry the amount of hp you have doesn't actually make you harder or easier to heal. That's why vit accessories are useless. They literally do nothing for you. Hp has always been (and always will be) like how accuracy was. You only need "enough" and anything more than that is completely useless.

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The less HP you have, the more mitigation you need to survive (busters in particular).
The more HP you have, the less migitation you need to survive.

Mitigation is not only a Tank's job. It's also the job of the Healers, and DPS as well (Feint, Troubadour, Nature's Minne, Palisade, Apocatastasis, Addle...).
So, saying that the amount of HP a Tank has doesn't impact the healing difficulty is technically correct, but it drastically impact the amount of mitigation you need. It means that you may need a defensive cooldown, plus healer's shield, plus something else (from a DPS, or Reprisal, or Intervenstion from the OT, whatever) to survive a Tank buster with STR accessories, while a Tank wearing VIT accessories may only need a defensive cooldown.

Not only HP helps keeping more cooldowns available (and thus, ease cooldown management, including stance switching) but reduce the amount of stress from other party members who might have to never fail something in order for you to survive.

HP also impact these (they aren't part of my main point, but I though it was a good idea to add them):
- Benediction. With the change to 3mn cooldown, the total amount of HP healed throughout a fight drastically change from STR to VIT acc.
- Divine Benison. Again, the more HP, the safer you are, Benison might be good enough for you to survive without a N.Aspected Benefic, while wearing STR acc might not.
- Excogitation's trigger. This skill is debated on SCH's topics, but anyway, some SCH might not want to see their Excogitation being triggered accidentaly because you took an unespected critical auto-attack. Quite anecdotal though, I'll give you that.

I'm not saying that people should go all in for HP, or that HP is better than STR... I'm just saying that HP is definitly not like accuracy and heavily impact the mitigation process.

This game isn't that hard at all. Tanking leading up to end game content is extremely easy. After that, I feel extreme tanking and beyond is fun and rewarding. I personally like doing Expert Roulette and Ex trials atm. Back in 3.0 I loved the 24 man raids and a good amount of the 8 man content... but that leads to my point:

I do think that they could do more to make the act of tanking more engaging. This can be accomplished a few ways, but mainly (IMO) they need to make things actually dangerous to our survival more often, so that the act of tanking itself is it's own measure of advancement. Lack of danger leads to wondering what our mitigation is even for. A 6k attack mitigated to 5k means little to nothing when you have 40k HP and the healer can top you off with one spell which costs nearly 0% of their MP.

I don't know if SE ever plans to do anything like this, or perhaps they feel the end game content they make is enough... but it's pretty clear to see now, with 2 expansions released, that they intend to cater to a more casual player base and in doing so are going to make content mostly accessible to them. Asking for more regular challenging content is a hot item as it can affect SE's bottom line by excluding people from content due to difficulty

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Originally Posted by Falar

Spoken like a true DPS

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You assume because I leveled RDM to 70 first that I didn't and don't tank? Let's keep this discussion to the topic, and leave the personal attacks or dismissals at the door.

As to your point about getting out of AoE's and popping CD's - You and I both know end game tanking has much more to it than that. You're minimizing your own role as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

Why is it that proper tanking isn't a reward enough?

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I'm curious, did you ever try raiding at all during the 3.x Alexander Savage series? Because, in each tier's respective heydays, the fights pretty much required everyone – including Tanks – to maximize their DPS as much as possible in order to clear. This was why Warrior, with its former potential to match actual, albeit subpar, DPS role performance with its damage, was so popular near the end of the previous expansion.

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Originally Posted by Falar

You are describing the bare minimum, that's why.

All those things are required to play tank. If you can't do them, you can't tank. Those are the bare minimum requirements to play the role.

What separates the great tanks from the marginal ones is how much DPS they add to the group while accomplishing their role. When the goal is to kill the enemy any extra DPS that can be found anywhere is a huge bonus.

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Falar also raises an excellent point. It's not exactly the most difficult thing in the world to fulfill your role as an enmity-generating damage sponge, even while dealing with mechanics, tank swaps, and mitigating busters. However, while it is good, maybe even preferred in some cases, to play your role exactly to the letter as is intended, under most circumstances going above and beyond can, and most often does, make or break a clear on difficult content, just the same as a clutch heal, or even clutch healer DPS, has the potential for doing exactly the same thing. Removing said potential and delegating all of the damage responsibility to its intended role, which is already widely-played by most of the community and replete with below-average performance players, is incredibly neutering and would likely cause a lot more justifiable frustration with the playerbase in general.

I feel like, just in the new Omega raid fights alone, I've already experienced a small handful of situations where the Tanks and Healers of a party pretty much salvaged what would've otherwise been disastrous wipes, even with all four DPS on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

The fact that the i270 STR accessories are still available to tanks is a huge oversight because not everyone can afford passing on 25% HP for 20-25% dmg increase, increasing the gap between players

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It's more like 35 -40%
My dps went from 2200 to 3000

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

I think the problem is in 2 parts. Bad tanks that don't know how to handle having lower HP pool (not using defensive cooldowns) and healers that don't know how to handle a tank with lower HP.

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the problem is that people think that as tank they have to be bad ass dps , trying to prove something ,but they forget ur alrdy doing something for the party , as in holding aggro and taking big hits , some dps is just a bonus ^^

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

the problem is that people think that as tank they have to be bad ass dps , trying to prove something ,but they forget ur alrdy doing something for the party , as in holding aggro and taking big hits , some dps is just a bonus ^^

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DPS is enmity, so if you can do great damage then it really fulfills your role.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

I do think that they could do more to make the act of tanking more engaging. This can be accomplished a few ways, but mainly (IMO) they need to make things actually dangerous to our survival more often, so that the act of tanking itself is it's own measure of advancement. Lack of danger leads to wondering what our mitigation is even for. A 6k attack mitigated to 5k means little to nothing when you have 40k HP and the healer can top you off with one spell which costs nearly 0% of their MP.

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Yeah... in tank stance with vit I'm sitting at 60k health and even with super heavy 1 shot tank busters I would rather just eat it in dps stance and use holmegang tank swap have the other tank use their invul swap then use my invul.

Well there you go. You said yourself that tanking isn't all that difficult leading to endgame. I would argue that endgame doesn't present any new mechanics but w/e. You said they could make the act of tanking more engaging and I agree, but the fact is they didn't. Tanking is not more engaging and they took away the one thing that made it more engaging. Increased hp / mitigation through gear means we can use less cds, less engaging. Dps numbers are the only engaging thing to tanking, can you see why people are upset?

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Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

It's more like 35 -40%
My dps went from 2200 to 3000

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3000 DPS. Congratulations for being in the top 10 for Warriors worldwide.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

As to your point about getting out of AoE's and popping CD's - You and I both know end game tanking has much more to it than that. You're minimizing your own role as a tank.

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Like moving a boss and tank swapping? Not that difficult either pal.
I need to worry about helping with DPS because in every piece of content I do I'm in the top 3 DPS 95% of the time. Lazy DPS is why I care about doing more than just taking hits and doing mechanics.
It's not like it makes it so I CAN'T do my job, so why does everyone get so butt hurt about it? Just because everyone else is content with barely, if not at all performing their rotations, doesn't mean we are.

Someone really needs to explain this to me, and it better not be about tanking just needs to worry about a few mechanics, because every time I hear that it makes me think you're just a monkey sitting behind a computer copy pasting the same thing as the other monkies.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

I'm curious, did you ever try raiding at all during the 3.x Alexander Savage series?

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No - I was a 60 tank with appropriate gear during the time and could have found a static but I refused to run Gordias Savage, knowing the tight DPS forced groups to squeeze out 10's of DPS to clear content early. I personally didn't have the time to commit to getting the required gear or the hours of banging my head on the wall to do it, nor did I have any desire to.

SE has clearly stated the difficulty level in early Alex savage was a detriment to the game. This fact is even confirmed by players and why Pepsiman is called the "Static Killer". People flat out unsubbed for months due to it.

SE is clearly trying to change the "muhdeeps!" mentality by placing a choke hold on the ways to increase tank DPS. It's written in neon writing on the friggin wall. People, however, are resisting.

What you explain in support Falar is an actual example of this mentality. What if, instead of letting the DPS lay on the ground dead, tanks managed to stave off damage long enough for the healers to rez the dead dps, and by proxy help the boss die faster, since the dps's roll is to do just that. Why does success have to be based around the TANKS (or in this case, also healers) own dps? Do you see here where a turn in mentality and thinking about a tanks' role in the raid can change based on where your focus is?

Players have been focused on tank DPS now for more than a year. It's a habit SE is trying to break.

People inherently resist change, and so we have what we have now.