Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This basically should be something that is fixed either change the way tank damage worked previous patch or make it so you can't use 270 str acc on tanks both options work.

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Honestly, I don't see just the latter option working; it doesn't solve the underlying problem, the why tanks are using i270 accessories to begin with. It would just make more disgruntled players, likely reduce the tank population even more, and increase queue times for healers and especially DPS's.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Honestly, I don't see just the latter option working; it doesn't solve the underlying problem, the why tanks are using i270 accessories to begin with. It would just make more disgruntled players, likely reduce the tank population even more, and increase queue times for healers and especially DPS's.

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Hyperbole much?

People are using str accessories because they can, not because they need to. Threat and dps checks might become a problem later but they aren't a problem now. As time goes on and threat does become problematic with gear scaling, it will also become more and more of a burden not to upgrade your gear, since you will have relatively less and less hp than you could.

Don't conflate the two different problems:
1. Threat scaling is much more likely to be an issue with tank damage being lower and not scaling as well with gear upgrades. This will lead to enmity management feeling worse as average players gear gets better. This can be fixed in a number of ways, but the most likely are a. going back to vit scaling damage, or b. scaling enmity with either vit or any other ilvl-increasing stat.

2. Tanks can still use ilvl270 str accessories, while not being able to use higher ilvl str accessories. This somewhat hides point 1, and acts as a short term solution, but is neither the cause nor the fix of that issue. While tanks are able to use those accessories they offer significantly more damage in an environment that doesn't yet demand higher survival than the severe ilvl drop costs.

The 270 accessories absolutely should be role blocked if the higher ilvl accessories remain blocked; 270 accessories from the previous expansion being significantly better is highly unintuitive and definitely not what the devs want to be happening. New players have to somehow work out where their damage is coming from, they have to know that the old accessories still allow this, and they have to farm the materials required to get those accessories in old content. This is not good for the game, even if the experienced tanks like putting out that extra 30% damage for the next couple of weeks.

Call for solutions to the actual problem rather than conflating it with a contextual one.

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Originally Posted by Alpha087

It's not an exploit, it's terrible game design.

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While it does happen to be poor design, I'm more likely to believe it was an oversight on their part, having forgotten about (or repressed) the STR tanking meta from Gordias.

Just did Lakshmi yesterday as OT with all strength accessories.... was more than fine. Weaved in a few STR accessories for Sussano, again.. was fine.

No one should be blaming TANKs for trying to optimize themselves. We've been here before. Until they add materia with high enough values, or give VIT back as a damage modifier, they just made old STR accessories optimal for tanks. It's all Min/Maxing again. Since Vitality is ONLY Hp, you only need as much as you need to survive, and anything else is just fluff that can be traded for damage.

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Originally Posted by Furious

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I don't think I was conflating the issues. I find threat management issues to be rearing its head at the moment. The person I was replying to, said the problem could be fixed with either going back to vit scaling or locking 270 accessories. However, if we go back to vit scaling, locking the 270 accessories becomes unnecessary as they would become inferior to the vit ones while just locking the i270 accessories wouldn't solve the threat scaling problem.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

You can swap accessories once you are in the instance, even if it would bring you under the minimum ilvl.

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Oh, I know. The person I quoted wanted to include a whole new mechanic not to dissimilar from accuracy. If you didn't have enough "defense," bosses just one shot you. That was what I was replying to there.

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Originally Posted by Furious

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Is it really hyperbolic though? Tanks preferring 270 accessories says a lot more than mere stats. People don't like the changes to tanks since most feel incredibly arbitrary. The game isn't requiring more from them as a tank per se, but simply not allowing them to do more damage. Threat management could be fun if it tied into more than spamming one combo endlessly. Nothing is fun about using Power Slash. It doesn't give MP and is a straight damage loss. Necessitating several more in a fight sucks for Dark Knights. The fact 270 accessories make it easier to handle aggro only confounds the issue further. The devs need to stop beating around the bush. Do they want tanks and healers to perform their roles more? Then make the content warrant it. I am perfectly happy to hold aggro or heal 80% of a fight. All you needs do is make it interesting. Presently, a design oversight is better than the actual changes they made. That's... embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

I don't think I was conflating the issues. I find threat management issues to be rearing its head at the moment. The person I was replying to, said the problem could be fixed with either going back to vit scaling or locking 270 accessories. However, if we go back to vit scaling, locking the 270 accessories becomes unnecessary as they would become inferior to the vit ones while just locking the i270 accessories wouldn't solve the threat scaling problem.

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In a world of tanks using shirk and taunt swapping there is pretty much zero chance you're having actual threat issues right now in vit gear, even with the changes, that aren't involving rotational issues (whether yours or your dps not using their tools). A shirk rotation alone gains 56% snap threat on top of your current main tank's threat, and there are many more tools available for management of enmity from the dps. Whether or not they use them is up to them and you.

It will become an issue, but it certainly isn't one yet.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Is it really hyperbolic though? Tanks preferring 270 accessories says a lot more than mere stats. People don't like the changes to tanks since most feel incredibly arbitrary. The game isn't requiring more from them as a tank per se, but simply not allowing them to do more damage. Threat management could be fun if it tied into more than spamming one combo endlessly. Nothing is fun about using Power Slash. It doesn't give MP and is a straight damage loss. Necessitating several more in a fight sucks for Dark Knights. The fact 270 accessories make it easier to handle aggro only confounds the issue further. The devs need to stop beating around the bush. Do they want tanks and healers to perform their roles more? Then make the content warrant it. I am perfectly happy to hold aggro or heal 80% of a fight. All you needs do is make it interesting. Presently, a design oversight is better than the actual changes they made. That's... embarrassing.

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Arbitrary is a buzzword that never means very much. The changes clearly are not arbitrary, they were done with intent, not at a whim. If that is an arbitrary change to you, then literally every change made to the game is arbitrary by the nature of it being a game. Whether or not they work or things were missed, they aren't arbitrary.

Using the enmity combo in and of itself may be more boring, but requiring more variation in rotation potentially is not. I don't know dark at all so I cant comment there, but for paladin when you need threat, you need to fit rage of halone combo in to a slot where you would have put royal authority. It's not more difficult, it's not less complex, it's not really more complex, but an increased need for it increases potential decision making.

I don't have any particular problem with SE having the goals of reducing tank damage or increasing the need for enmity generation as a portion of actions taken; these things are only a nerf in a relative sense compared to previous iterations. What I do have a problem with is the nerf to scaling of damage and/or enmity. When they change the scaling so that one class scales more quickly or more slowly than another, that becomes a more significant issue over time. The scaling of enmity (and/or damage) will still equally be a problem even with str accessories; it will just manifest later.

Tanks preferring 270 accessories really isn't more than "mere stats" - they allow the tanks to do more damage and threat than vit accessories in a scenario where survival is zero sum and dps is uncapped. This has already been addressed by SE by disallowing str accessories, it just wasn't applied unilaterally enough.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Arbitrary is a buzzword that never means very much. The changes clearly are not arbitrary, they were done with intent, not at a whim. If that is an arbitrary change to you, then literally every change made to the game is arbitrary by the nature of it being a game. Whether or not they work or things were missed, they aren't arbitrary.

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Tanks are still more than capable of pulling the room and healers can still DPS large pulls. You're simply punished for optimizing both jobs outside their core roles. If they want tanks in tank stance more, make the damn bosses hit hard enough so the mere idea of Slaying accessories would be ludicrous. The fact tanks can walk into Susano and Lakshmi with upwards of 10k less HP and survive is the actual problem. Likewise, even if they do correct the HW accessory oversight but Omega Savage still doesn't require 50-60K to survive everything. It's rendered pointless. These changes are arbitrary because we're still playing the exact same way, it's simply a dumb downed variety.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Call for solutions to the actual problem rather than conflating it with a contextual one.

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I agree but with I doubt we'll see any changes before 4.2.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...hange/di28d2s/

I am waiting for the day that tank buster will one shot a tank without vit accessory because even now I still love my healer and I still wear vit accessory

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so are jap players complaining about aggro too?
because it's a stupid reason
why not just say outright we want more damage
or that we want to feel like we're contributing to group and not just taking hits
etc etc
and not just use aggro as a scapegoat because we don't want to use the aggro combo
I'd expect Yoshida to just tell us to use aggro combo and it'll be fine

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Some people just don't understand. The thing is, when optimized, even now tanks can still pretty good DPS. I never hit near that ceiling so that's not my concern at all. My concern is actually about aggro in the future (We do have Shirk and Diversion and Lucid and whatnot, but I don't expect others to use them and Ican't force them either). Let's hypothetically say SE removes everything except the aggro combo, and buffs the aggro combo potency so that tanks can do DPS on par with actual DPS. I would still be very unhappy, because it's not really about the DPS. If Yoshida's answer is just "use the aggro combo" I will literally stop playing tanks. That's not a threat or anything. That's just what I will do as a player because it won't be fun.

And if it's such a stupid reason, why are JP players saying the same exact thing?

From Google Translate because I am too lazy to translate:

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I think that it is an interpretation that I want a hate acquisition power proportional to the attack power of DPS, not to hit the DPS's attack power. . .
I think that it is understandable that the difference between DPS's damage and tank's damage caused by the future update will be increasing steadily as it is the current system in which the damage amount is the hate acquisition amount as it is, so I think that the job as a tank is neat In order to do, it is impossible even if it will be impossible to hold in future if you increase extension damage by the same ratio, or increase subparameters such as hostile + and add it to the accessory.

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I do not agree with you on one thing: DPS should use all their tools, no excuses. Physical damage tank buster incoming? Use feint!

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I do not agree with you on one thing: DPS should use all their tools, no excuses. Physical damage tank buster incoming? Use feint!

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"Should" being the word here. DPS should do a lot of things, but many don't. I never say they shouldn't do so; I merely said I do not expect them to do so. It's like expecting DPS not to stand in AoEs.

You gutted my main job and made it from the hardest tank to a 1-2-3 idiot mode with no ogcds? Cool, thats fine.

Then you take away my ability to deal respectable damage while wearing GEAR FOR MY JOB. Get some competent designers please, the state of tanks in 4.0 is disgusting. I clear susano SSS with one minute left with slaying accessories and 15s left with 320 lakshimi fending accessories. Holy shit.

did Lakshmi-Ex as DRK OT, on first run i went full VIT access, was fine, on second run i swapped to 270STR i gained around 500-550dps Healers didn't notice a change in the way they healed me... but the DPS jump is worth it, you only have to care about the big cleave as OT and it's easy to mitigate it with the lv70 shield/CD...

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Originally Posted by Noza

did Lakshmi-Ex as DRK OT

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What about MT ?

The discussion surrounding STR accessories isn't really about enmity. You can comfortably hold aggro without them. While it is true that the current system will result in a widening gap between tank and dps enmity with each tier of gear, enmity is more forgiving than it has ever been. Not only have a number of the enmity modifiers been increased, but tools like Shirk really simplify the process. And that's kind of the point - enmity management is an artificial system that's shoehorned in to make everything work. It only exists because game designers need to create a discrepancy between tank dps and direct damage dealers, so that you can't run 6 tank 2 healer groups and gain extra survivability for no trade-off in damage output.

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

The reason why the concept of STR tanking upsets people is because it translates differences in skill into performance differences. There are many factors involved. You need to be able to tank the fight with less HP, which involves understanding damage thresholds and mitigation. Your cotank needs to swap in a timely fashion. Your healers need to understand fight timings well. It's not particularly hard, and the effort remains the same, but the margin for error becomes smaller. In a way, it's like clearing a fight at a lower ilvl, and being rewarded with extra dps for doing it correctly. The problem is that not every group can replicate this, and the instant someone else starts clearing this way, you feel compelled to keep up. If nobody else could do it, you can't feel bad about not doing it yourself.

It's not about strength tanks vs. non-strength tanks, though. It's about the fact that, when you pick up your sword/axe/spiked bat and go to tank the boss, you want to feel like you're helping out. You know those 1% clutch clears where the only player left standing is the tank, and they pop their invincibility move and finish off the last bit of the boss' hp? Those only happen because you have tanks who contribute a meaningful level of dps. It's fun for the player, good for the team, and more epic for people watching. At its core, this strength accessory debate is important because it draws attention to a significant problem that needs to be addressed. It's actually in everyone's interests to see this resolved in a way that allows tanks to have respectable damage scaling with gear.

I feel this would be "ok" within a static, like fights were OT only helps soak damage like in Noza's example. Haven't tanked that much yet but is it really that hard to hold hate as a tank now that you would require the extra damage to hold a boss as an mt? I am a bit undecided on this one, i did enjoy the str acc "take" on tanking, where you had to mix and match based on what the encounter could dish out, but again those were examples in which you had a static. If you are doing it cuz all the cool kids are doing it, without having an actual solid grasp on your tank jobs mitigation "capacities" and just stressing the healers though, it could be 1000 more dps and I would still say its not worth it. There is a difference between doing things to help with cutting edge content within their respective competitive communities, as groups, and being an a-hole that wants to play at being leet at the expense of your healers.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want.

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For me, that's exactly the reason. In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff. If I have full mastery over a damage rotation, I don't want any average joe doing more than me with a lower ilvl just because they have different gear. Basically, it's akin to the rant about Diadem weapon, where no skill could ever compensate for the gap in stats.

And I still don't understand how tanks could not feel like "they're helping out" when, without them, the team would be wiped in mere seconds...which is basically what happens when a STR tank is killed because he miscalculated how much max HP he needed.

We are currently at 0.6 AP~ with full str VI melds at i314. Comparing to the previously 0.8AP~ from 3.5 (need more maths, im lazy).

We are so gimped that I don't understand the logic on the sudden change of str being primary again. If they truly want to kill tanks' dps, they should do something about enmity first.

Else gtfo. Quit all you want, rant all you want because as long as SE doesn't do anything to the i270 slayings, they just want us to use it. Period.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me, that's exactly the reason. In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff. If I have full mastery over a damage rotation, I don't want any average joe doing more than me with a lower ilvl just because they have different gear. Basically, it's akin to the rant about Diadem weapon, where no skill could ever compensate for the gap in stats.

And I still don't understand how tanks could not feel like "they're helping out" when, without them, the team would be wiped in mere seconds...which is basically what happens when a STR tank is killed because he miscalculated how much max HP he needed.

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Blame the players, not the meta. Skilled tanks are already past the "just being a hitting dummy for mobs/bosses". Adapting to the meta is always important if you want to improve as a player, not just as a tank per se.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Blame the players, not the meta. Skilled tanks are already past the "just being a hitting dummy for mobs/bosses". Adapting to the meta is always important if you want to improve as a player, not just as a tank per se.

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Frankly, I'd blame the designers...because pure tanking rarely rise above "just being a hitting dummy for mob/bosses", so players find another direction where they can push their job. For me, it would be much more fun that a perfectly played theoretical tank should come close to 100% self-sustainability instead of competing in damage numbers.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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As long as you can make decisions about gear stats, there will always be differences in performance that result from it. If you want a "pure" gameplay experience, then not only do you need to remove differences in primary stats like STR out of the equation, but all of the secondaries. Then it purely becomes about rotation, not gear. But that's neither here nor there.

There are many things that tanks do to help their groups out, but defeating the boss is often one of them. For many of us, part of the fun of tanking is standing toe to toe with an enemy and trading blows with them. Even if that's not your thing, then having tank damage scale with accessory ilvl doesn't affect you at all. You can still Flash tank the boss to achieve the pacifist run of your dreams. For the rest of us, having tank damage scale with accessory ilvl is very important. Regardless of your style of gameplay, there's no reason for anyone to be opposed to this idea, as it doesn't impinge on your gameplay style.

Again, my point isn't about STR tanking. I'm comfortable with doing it when needed, and I don't mind if there are people out there who refuse to. I understand both points of view, and don't have any strong inclination to persuade people either way (or debate tank philosophy, for that matter). My point was that if you had tank accessories with both VIT and STR, tank damage will also scale with accessory ilvl, kind of like every other role in the game, including healers. Treat the problem, not the symptom.

Failing that, just remove our weapons, change our main stat to Charisma, and have us incessantly irritate the boss with witty banter until it focuses us. Dancer and Mediator confirmed tanks for 5.0?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What about MT ?

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Didn't try yet, but on Susano Ex (with VIT) you can eat Stormsplitter with ease without tank stance (DRK shield + CD is enought), Stance=20% damage reduction, STR=20% hp loss, so i think you can mitigate Stormsplitter the same way as with VIT by stance dancing... the problem is not gears, you have enought HP to survive any attack, the real problem is greed/unexperience, as long as you know the fight, incoming damages and how to deal with them, you dont need the VIT imo, i mean why do you prefer loosing about 30% damage when you are confident on your skills and your party ?
The combo PLD/DRK can even protect each others with their skills which helps healers, its up to you but i prefer running STR on fights that i know, push the dps, skip mech... as long as they don't fix it STR will remain the way to go, sadly...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Again, my point isn't about STR tanking. I'm comfortable with doing it when needed, and I don't mind if there are people out there who refuse to. I understand both points of view.

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agree with you, if you are not comfortable with it, don't, if its ok, just do it...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

As long as you can make decisions about gear stats, there will always be differences in performance that result from it.

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But tank situation is basically an oversight from SE...no other job has to make that kind of "decision". Even if you have a liking to a certain secondary stat, never will it have such a huge impact on your performance.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Regardless of your style of gameplay, there's no reason for anyone to be opposed to this idea, as it doesn't impinge on your gameplay style.

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I'm not opposed to the idea of aggressive tanking. I'm opposed of it being the only way from a competitive standpoint. Basically, the game gives you two options : One that offers nothing in a competitive aspect, and the other who offers everything...not really a choice, now, isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

My point was that if you had tank accessories with both VIT and STR, tank damage will also scale with accessory ilvl, kind of like every other role in the game, including healers. Treat the problem, not the symptom.

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Or you could do like healing accessories with piety. Vit would become like a secondary stat and wouldn't increase your damage at all. But no more pure VIT accessories.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff

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I mean this isn't really true. Yes, your damage is literally increased by your increased STR, but dead tanks do zero damage. Surviving with that lower HP does take more skill and gameplay understanding than surviving with more max HP. You can look at it as part rotation tightness and part having enough fight knowledge and execution to be able to survive. Threading that needle can be tough in fights like Living Liquid where his cleaves do ~75% of your HP and missing your mitigation timing means you're dead.

Anyway I'm not so much concerned with big dick DPS numbers as I am with the lack of scaling for my small dick DPS numbers. If they keep it like it is now (which I doubt they will), i270 rings will pop up late in the expansion since each one gives you ~3 Stormblood pieces worth of STR. You might not wear full i270 stuff in the final raid, but giving up one accessory's worth of VIT for 3 of STR is almost a no brainer.

Once again I'd like to propose the ultimate solution of removing main damage stats from all accessories, making them VIT/substats/class specific stuff only, and forcing everyone to use main stat materia. Currently INT/MND/DEX materia have zero use in the game and that's pretty dumb. Really though they should just add some amount of scaling STR to tank accessories and class lock everything from pre-SB. I'm the type that actually loves unique items that stick around through expansions in MMORPGs, but those items aren't supposed to be something as boring as STR accessories.

Also this is kind of a side thing but god damn removing crafted overmelds and strength accessories and different sword delays and different shield types makes me really hate their item and battle team. Rather than fixing VIT accessories by giving them some actual advantage they just gimped everything else. If they're going to keep choice so limited can they at least TRY to add set bonuses or something? Removing item choice takes away things to do in the game (i.e. collecting items so you can make those choices). I was actually kind of excited when I heard Skillspeed would increase your auto attack rate because that meant it'd be better for Sword Oath and Ninjas than for other classes. Turns out that was BS and it just increases AA damage. Thanks SE.

Even with the change to STR, at Stormblood launch, I saw my attack power fall from 1337 to 1246 due to the fact I was wearing BiS VIT gear.

With STR once again being the sole source of attack power for tank jobs, we've come back to this perception that the failure of any given tank player to stay standing is solely due to whether or not they're wearing VIT or STR accessories. I get how people who don't necessarily main any of the tank jobs, or main them but don't particularly play them well, would draw that conclusion. The fact of the matter, though, is that aggro generation in this game scales with damage dealt. This has nothing to do with any of us wanting to hang out in DPS stance 24/7. This has everything to do with a valid concern that the ability to maintain hate against DPS jobs is going to become a major problem so long as tanks remain locked out of attack power gains on half their gear, while DPS jobs continue to scale upward. I completely understand the desire to ensure that tank damage potential does not approach dedicated DPS job damage potential, and it's for that reason that the STR/VIT hybrid calculation made sense and worked.

I feel that the sudden switch back to STR-only for tanks owes itself to the changes in how Weakness and Brink of Death are calculated. What needs to change is how Weakness and BoD are handled - these SHOULD be timed damage down debuffs at 25% and 50% respectively instead of reductions to main stats. This would let us go back to STR/VIT hybrid scaling, and make the use of VIT accessories viable again. Otherwise, holding out against 40k crits from SAM and the incredibly fast spin-up on RDM is going to demand tanks squeeze as much attack power as they can out of what's presently available, and that means holding onto those i270 pieces.

I find it really funny how the only people with their heads far enough up their asses to defend this cancer are the PLDs.
Totally a coincidence!(sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

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Don't you know you're a tank and you're supposed to sit in tank stance and spam your aggro combo for days? :^)

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Blame the players, not the meta. Skilled tanks are already past the "just being a hitting dummy for mobs/bosses". Adapting to the meta is always important if you want to improve as a player, not just as a tank per se.

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I agree 100% with Reynhart. Despite its numerous problems, in my opinion, TERA did tanking right. In TERA, a perfect tank would be 100% self-sustainable because they wouldn't take any damage.

FFXIV has designed tanks to be braindead dummies for bosses. So yeah I blame the designers.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I agree 100% with Reynhart. Despite its numerous problems, in my opinion, TERA did tanking right. In TERA, a perfect tank would be 100% self-sustainable because they wouldn't take any damage.

FFXIV has designed tanks to be braindead dummies for bosses. So yeah I blame the designers.

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TERA required that, else you are dead even if you are a tank. This is another game you are talking about, if FFXIV does this as well, you will be seeing more DPS slots in a raid rather than taking more healers or tanks in the end. It's all the same simple question; Do you need the extra survivability? If no, go do your extra DPS. It is that simple. Even TERA's tanks can do obscene amount of damage while tanking perfectly, in essence whatever you can get away with, you generally abuse it.

It's a chain of events that started with something completely unrelated. SE changed Weakness so that it no longer lowers your HP, but instead lowers your primary damage stat. Since VIT was a primary damage stat for tanks, presumably they decided to uncouple damage from VIT so that they could make that change without either having it affect tanks too much (damage and health penalty) or too little (half the damage penalty other classes got).

So once you have the new Weakness formula no longer affecting VIT and VIT no longer being a damage stat, the only way to stop Gordias from happening again is to role lock the accessories... And then they forgot to lock the older accessories.

So in other words if tank damage was calculated with VIT, then weakness would not affect their HP OR their damage, giving tanks a pretty good return, and paving ways for zombie builds with tanks as DPS(mostly PLD due to their high dps currently) that as long as they get raised, they have no effective penalty for dying.

Lulz it's alotta salty tears in this thread, I'll continue to wear full slaying to spite the healers.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

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There's a whole lot of subjectivity in this comment that really is illogical.

A. What is respectable damage? What would you be happy with?
B. Why do tanks need to do a specific value of damage provided they can do their jobs? Whatever level they are set at, that is what people will optimise to, same as dps values.
C. Why wouldn't tank contributions be valued just because they are lower?

The argument just doesn't work; it requires as much subjectivity to pose the question as it does to presuppose an answer from SE. The only answer that will ever matter is "because that's what SE wants".

When you say there's ongoing resistance to tanks doing respectable damage you predispose the listener to assume that that paradigm is in some way valuable intrinsically. It's not. Tanks work just fine as a paradigm at practically any baseline relative damage value, as long as they otherwise work mechanically. What matters is what SE wants for that paradigm.

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Originally Posted by Furious

What matters is what SE wants for that paradigm.

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What matters is what the paying customers want sunshine, better live with that though. And considering you're a pally, your opinion hardly counts.

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Originally Posted by Furious

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It's an opinion. There is no such thing as intrinsic value, as it is always ascribed relative to an individual's personal value system. My views here are subjective, just like yours. To pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. This isn't math class, and I unfortunately can't algebraically prove the truthiness of my sentiments. I can, however, express my feelings and opinions on the matter as they've developed over the course of these two expansions.

By "respectable damage", I'm talking about damage as a percentage of total raid dps. You don't want tank dps to proportionally be so high that you overlap with pure damage dealer jobs, when played competantly (as was the case in Final Coil/Gordias). At the same time, if you tune it to be proportionally low, there's less and less incentive to play optimally. The problem that I have with these changes is that with each iteration, the relative proportion of tank dps to raid dps keeps getting scaled back.

Part of the satisfaction of tanking for some players is the fact that, as you refine and optimise your mitigation timing, your dps goes up. You don't just get positive feedback as a tank for positioning well and surviving the fight; you also get it for pushing out damage that people simply weren't expecting you to do on your chosen job. I'm not looking for the illicit thrill that you got when you outperformed a BRD as a STR WAR in T13 while doing all of the tanking mechanics. Those days are over. I'm just looking to be able to chase their heels a little and make 'em sweat.

As a tank in a raid environment, you often end up making sacrifices to facilitate other players and make their jobs easier. But we're not just there as support, we're there to help defeat the boss too. There has to be a certain amount of give and take, and that only happens if we can bring a reasonably significant contribution to the table between the two tanks. Otherwise we're just there to position the boss, do tank mechanics, and watch at the behest of damage dealer roles. You want people to take up the tanking mantle? Let players feel like their Bloodspillers, Fell Cleaves, Holy Spirits, and other assorted attacks matter, for starters. That's really what's at the core of this STR accessory debate.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

TERA required that, else you are dead even if you are a tank. This is another game you are talking about, if FFXIV does this as well, you will be seeing more DPS slots in a raid rather than taking more healers or tanks in the end. It's all the same simple question; Do you need the extra survivability? If no, go do your extra DPS. It is that simple. Even TERA's tanks can do obscene amount of damage while tanking perfectly, in essence whatever you can get away with, you generally abuse it.

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It's definitely true we'd have less tanks. But having 3 tanks in a 24-man raid leads to other problems, suck as tanks trying to wave their e-peen and keep provoking rather than actually doing their job.

I agree that DPS is also the meta in TERA, but it has a lot more skill required even before getting into maximizing DPS. My point wasn't that DPS isn't the meta in TERA. My point was simply that I blame the designers because there's no direction where you can push your job in this game if you just stick to pure tanking. Obviously in TERA, once you practice and memorize a boss' patterns perfectly then you have to optimize DPS to push yourself further, but before that point, you can push yourself by just sticking to pure tanking.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I agree that DPS is also the meta in TERA, but it has a lot more skill required even before getting into maximizing DPS.

Obviously in TERA, once you practice and memorize a boss' patterns perfectly then you have to optimize DPS to push yourself further, but before that point, you can push yourself by just sticking to pure tanking.

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Well that's pretty much what it's like here, no? You can't tank savage bosses out of tank stance before you memorized the attack patterns perfectly and coordinated mitigations/heals for the whole fight. Just because it's optimal doesn't mean everyone and their grandmas can tank out of tank stance. If it's worth anything, nearly every single pug creator/midas savage clears I've been in had what I consider turtle tank as the "MT", and I'm sure the number of tanks who have done a12s with both tanks completely out of tank stance is ridiculously low. Yeah to be optimal you need to not use tank stance, but the majority of the playerbase aren't skilled enough to be pushing themselves at that point.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Well that's pretty much what it's like here, no? You can't tank savage bosses out of tank stance before you memorized the attack patterns perfectly and coordinated mitigations/heals for the whole fight. Just because it's optimal doesn't mean everyone and their grandmas can tank out of tank stance. If it's worth anything, nearly every single pug creator/midas savage clears I've been in had what I consider turtle tank as the "MT", and I'm sure the number of tanks who have done a12s with both tanks completely out of tank stance is ridiculously low. Yeah to be optimal you need to not use tank stance, but the majority of the playerbase aren't skilled enough to be pushing themselves at that point.

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I don't entirely disagree but there's a lot to be said about fight design when you can map things out by the GCD. As far as I can tell in this game, mitigation is figuring out when the tankbusters occur and then planning out which cooldowns you're going to use. In TERA the damage was constant like in WoW, so someone could tell you what the attacks were and their tells, but you'd have to figure out the dance yourself. Bosses were still scripted but the attack pattern was far more random.

Also in TERA, this wasn't just at endgame hard mode dungeon level (which is what I'd compare to Savage). This was in every dungeon including leveling dungeons. I'm not so sure I'd say the same of FFXIV.