Tanks are fine (show your support so they don't change them)

Note: outside of raidwide/partywide damage going out, I refuse to heal people who simply want to heckle tanks because they feel like they can. I have seen tons dps casting spells/ranged skills or charging in as a melee and the tank has not even made it X enemy position or established aggro. I refuse to continue to heal dps who do this, especially those who refuse to use the enmity skills given to their job. Bottom line is, we should be working with the tank to allow said tank job to maintain aggro, not against them. Just my opinions though.

They have no idea what to do with tank stats lol. Implement Tenacity which barely does anything at all. It's Parry's brother
Edit since I was on phone: Not only that, this whole time people were against STR accs and pleaded for people to use
VIT , so they fixed it to make it better and then people finally started to use VIT again, here we are with STR accessories.
What in the world lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gimorian401

I agree and disagree with this. They changed tanks and how they work (please SE put it back to VIT being the only damage calculation for tanks) but many players just dont like tanking. Its a play style mostly.

---

I don't think that matters - Fact is they aren't popular because people don't enjoy them as much.
WHY they don't enjoy them is irrelevant to that fact, whether it's because they're weak or whether it's because they're tanks as such or whether it's because of their visuals, whether it's because of failure visibility or whathaveyou. It can have many reasons and most of them aren't mutually exclusive - but fact is if tanks were fine, they'd be popular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

I don't think that matters - Fact is they aren't popular because people don't enjoy them as much.
WHY they don't enjoy them is irrelevant to that fact, whether it's because they're weak or whether it's because they're tanks as such or whether it's because of their visuals, whether it's because of failure visibility or whathaveyou. It can have many reasons and most of them aren't mutually exclusive - but fact is if tanks were fine, they'd be popular.

---

Tanks and healers will never be 'popular', as you require a certain mindset and awareness to play them efficiently.
But many just want to bring on the big numbers and don't care for anything else. They don't want to 'babysit' the group like tanks and healers need to, they just want to have their fun.
And they are the most impacted ones when players don't perform well on them, thus adding another layer of pressure on the said peeps to put them off those roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arrius

Tanks and healers will never be 'popular', as you require a certain mindset and awareness to play them efficiently.
But many just want to bring on the big numbers and don't care for anything else. They don't want to 'babysit' the group like tanks and healers need to, they just want to have their fun.
And they are the most impacted ones when players don't perform well on them, thus adding another layer pressure on the said peeps to put them off those roles.

---

My problem is tank design. I don't like getting in the enemies face. If there was a ranged CC tank that had bindings or something to hold the enemy in place while I was at range, I would play it. As it currently stands, pure melee has no interest to me.

I'm sure we may see something change, I guess a lot of people are having aggro issues?

Not sure when that starts but maybe I need to jump into EX trials to find out. So far tanking to 70 I've yet to encounter aggro issues outside of DPS not doing things properly. Or my own personal screw ups.

The direction they're facing is a nice change, it just now needs some tweaking it seems. Problem is the ones who demand the change aren't giving any real good ideas to help enhance the game play, instead they're suggesting changes that revert it back to the good ol' days.

While these veteran tanks should be a great source for being able to see where the road is leading and how to deal with it, so far most of the adjustments I've seen (i'm sure there's a few good ones but they get lost in all the "They took my job!" rants) feel like old people who complaining "Well back in my day..."

Then the other side goes "Good job! Everything is good!"

Neither side wants to give in, so we're going to most likely end up either continue going down the road to destruction as the veterans say or we're going to rollback to the glory days. Either way you're going to loose tanks.

"We're loosing them now! People are quitting! Unhappy I say!" Yeah, this happens each expansion. Hell major patches, nothing new here.

Then again, I'm trying to learn not to just listen, but to try it out first. I did WAR to 70, no hate issues no tp issues that were consistent like others said.

Now I'm trying to level PLD because it was praised as being this glorified job. Maybe i need to get the new skills but I did one or two and so far it plays the same before the 60 - 70 skills. To me that's not /drool so much powa! that's "It gets a bit better down the road"

I think that's half the problem, people are listening and getting blind-sided by what others say and it gets in their heads as what they now believe for most things. Play it yourself and find out, but that can't be applied now because people have already gotten in their mind-set. Whether it's someone who went "Here's my 92 hour compiled analysis of <job>!" to "Hey guys, another video here to show you how you should play!" or they got a broken arm for stroking SE too much for each little detail praising them.

Lol in the end it's two piles of sh$t and the only difference is the smell.

Which side will win? Who knows, but much like other jobs, the two sides to the discussion won't come to a compromise and be too stubborn and one will win making it again something fun for some and horrible for others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leigaon

The direction they're facing is a nice change, it just now needs some tweaking it seems. Problem is the ones who demand the change aren't giving any real good ideas to help enhance the game play, instead they're suggesting changes that revert it back to the good ol' days.

---

Something I suggested on these forums before: have just enmity generation caused by attacks and abilities increased by VIT for all tank role jobs. That way, tanks get what they want (increased enmity) and devs get what they want (tanks not doing ridiculous amounts of damage). They could even take it a step further and have that enmity generation bonus only active while a tank is in their respective tanking stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I think the tanks are OK as is with two things that could be improved upon.

The two issues I see are that tanks function best after the 64-66 level skills/traits are obtained, because their skillsets are designed in such a way that only with the skills from levels 66-70 does everything begin to fall into place. So in pre-60 content especially, the tanks can feel clunky because they just don't work as well as they used to.

Second thing is Tenacity. Square Enix, you added a role statistic and then made it's impact almost negligible. What were you thinking? Why would anyone stack their role stat if it has next to no appreciable impact? Fix that. The whole STR/VIT damage scaling thing would be moot if Tenacity had a decent impact; especially as significant impact with Tenacity also boosts healing and damage resistance.

Significantly better impact from Tenacity would grease the wheels of the clunky design in pre-60 content since it lifts tanks in 3 key areas and makes a virtue of stacking something besides STR.

---

I honestly can't agree more with this post I can't tell you how excited I was to level up as a Drk only to feel that it was lacking serious flow until 68, and then I saw Tenacity thinking it's gonna replace STR it must, it's even got damage resistance scaling! Nope it's not great at all and we're back to using ilvl 270 STR rings from HW, i'm honestly baffled that this is O.K in an MMO in this day and age I'm just beyond mad that our stats are causing such a community out roar and rightfully so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazrah

Something I suggested on these forums before: have just enmity generation caused by attacks and abilities increased by VIT for all tank role jobs. That way, tanks get what they want (increased enmity) and devs get what they want (tanks not doing ridiculous amounts of damage). They could even take it a step further and have that enmity generation bonus only active while a tank is in their respective tanking stance.

---

Could also make Tenacity actually useful and have enmity generation boosted by it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferrasper

My problem is tank design. I don't like getting in the enemies face. If there was a ranged CC tank that had bindings or something to hold the enemy in place while I was at range, I would play it. As it currently stands, pure melee has no interest to me.

---

A ranged tank will never exist. Too unbalanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arrius

A ranged tank will never exist. Too unbalanced.

---

Hence why I will never play a tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrCynapsis

I rarely badger them when I see Healers play pure healing only. I use it as an excuse to push a more aggressive play style and see if they keep up. If they pipe up I usually respond with a rant about party synergy.

---

That is the correct way to go about it. If you pull one group and the healer is barely doing anything, go for two. You can keep going until the healer has no time to DPS at all. Keeping in mind that the healer can typically handle two pulls easily, but you are completely on your own for crowd control if you pull too much. A healer can not heal a squishy tank that pulls everything to the boss room.

That said, each healer is different. WHM can easily pull off Holy, Assize and Aero III within 5 seconds on any pull and then not do any additional DPS, (at that point the damage should stop for 5 seconds) but that still requires the tank to gather the trash together, and if the DPS are firing on the mobs as you pull them, that doesn't happen. The other side of this is I should not need to use benediction on a tank during a pull. If I need to use it, it's either because you the tank are too squishy, or I miss-timed/missed healing the tank (which happens when you accidentally click the floor before casting.) When I cast Holy I always move out of the way because the mob AOE's may still be there, but I can't see them once the holy animation starts.

With AST, Gravity isn't Holy. That effect is on Celestial Opposition, and does no damage. Thus it's rarely going to be used except to interrupt a mob's casting. Earthly Star/Stellar Detonation has the effect similar to Assize. An AST can't do the same AOE damage a WHM can, thus Assize or Earthly Star/Stellar Detonation are the only DPS attacks you should always see being used because they also recover HP. As a Healer I try to toss the DoT's out if there is time, but that time only exists on a small pull. Scholar, has no AOE DPS other than Shadow Flare, rather the way Scholar works is they have to single target bio, miasma and then use Bane to spread it to the enemies nearby. That again only works if the Tank has pulled the mobs close together.

Hence the DPS players need to wait for the tank to collect the trash, and the tank also needs to wait for all the trash to die before running off to the next pull. Otherwise you may start the next pull with the healer having already used their MP cooldowns, and having only half their MP.

I don't see how enimty is an issue in any content, in the new extreme fights I stay in dps stance 90% of the time.

With the new shrik ability if you work with you OT you can make all other party members enimty non existanst.

OP in a nutshell.

http://i.imgur.com/ALMhDZF.png

every dps has an agro management skill, perhaps they should start using it, ive noticed ill drop from 2 (half way to 1) on the agro list to 3 (1/4 filled) and its on a short cooldown

Thank you for the support and the likes. If those of us that liked the changes show it they'll keep it and let fell cleave/decimate main tanks in "easy" dungeons adapt to it (if they can/want).

These are all opinions. Saying tanks have no problems, or tanks only should be in defense stance especially from a non tank is assanine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Molic

I don't see how enimty is an issue in any content, in the new extreme fights I stay in dps stance 90% of the time.

With the new shrik ability if you work with you OT you can make all other party members enimty non existanst.

---

In Extreme fights, it is fine due to it being single target. Right now, we don't have issue with single target enmity, especially with shirk around.

It is AoE enmity that is the issue, especially when DPS split dps or don't use their enmity reducers. It is an issue that is currently only rearing its head, but will get worse and worse as ilvl increases as the damage gap increases further due to tanks only gaining HP and no damage from their accessories. People are being short sighted in thinking that because it it is manageable now it will be fine later, but this is an issue that is a problem in the long term.

Saying a tank shouldn't dps so a healer can is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. A healer heals, tanks tank. Any positive dps gain is a positive.

At level 60; Being out of tank mode as warrior nets +25% dps plus many great dps tools as a tank. In fact my tests were showing faster clears with a warrior in dps stance as close to 100% of the time and a healer only healing. Warriors specifically could do as much damage as dps making healers damage meaningless in comparison.

I have zero tests from 70 cap but I'm assuming people are referring to trash dungeons anyways (everything but raids/extreme primals) where non of this matters anyways.

The truth is non of that even matters if I enjoy the game. When you ruin how I like to tank that makes me enjoy the game less. So please non-tanks quit telling me everythings okay and I should just fit some cookie cutter ideal, especially when the content doesn't matter and I should be allowed to do whatever I want as long as I hold hate.

Tanks aren't "fine" any more than healers are "fine".

Whether a job is "fine" depends on three core factors: (1) can it accomplish its intended role; (2) is it reasonably balanced when compared to its peers; (3) is it fun to play. Even as a non-tank myself, I can tell from this thread that (3) is deeply in question, with (1) being a potential issue down the road unless SE adjusts the obvious tank enmity vs. damage-dealer DPS imbalance. That's a problem. I personally find (3) to be an issue for healers, too.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind sticking to the trinity - but SE needs to make jobs fun to play within that more rigid role if they're going to pursue that path. I know I don't find spamming Cure II on a tank to be entertaining as a healer, and I doubt that tanks find firing off the same enmity combo for most of a fight to be especially fulfilling either. A good portion of the toolsets that healers and tanks have vanishes when the game design heavily pushes us to focus only on our primary role. We're playing with only one arm, so to speak.

All this to say, mindlessly shouting "tanks should tank" does not a solution make. It isn't constructive, and it's rooted in bias rather than logic or empathy. The sooner this perspective goes the way of the dodo, the sooner we can collectively provide clearer feedback for SE on exactly what's wrong with tanks (and healers).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yahallo

In Extreme fights, it is fine due to it being single target. Right now, we don't have issue with single target enmity, especially with shirk around.

It is AoE enmity that is the issue, especially when DPS split dps or don't use their enmity reducers. It is an issue that is currently only rearing its head, but will get worse and worse as ilvl increases as the damage gap increases further due to tanks only gaining HP and no damage from their accessories. People are being short sighted in thinking that because it it is manageable now it will be fine later, but this is an issue that is a problem in the long term.

---

An addendum to this that I noticed while leveling up. For dungeons while leveling up while there can be large disparities between gears it becomes a super large chore to hold hate. First run through of the final dungeon in 288 gear vs a dps in 310 gear I was flashing 5-6 times just to hold multiple group aggro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bdyer

An addendum to this that I noticed while leveling up. For dungeons while leveling up while there can be large disparities between gears it becomes a super large chore to hold hate. First run through of the final dungeon in 288 gear vs a dps in 310 gear I was flashing 5-6 times just to hold multiple group aggro

---

Yeah tank gearing is a real issue imo.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nimum/de7hr09/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferrasper

My problem is tank design. I don't like getting in the enemies face. If there was a ranged CC tank that had bindings or something to hold the enemy in place while I was at range, I would play it. As it currently stands, pure melee has no interest to me.

---

Out of curiosity, do you have any examples of a ranged Tank with CC capabilities from other MMO's? Because the concept in and of itself seems improbable to me considering the very nature of what a Tank's responsibility consists of, although I'm willing to eat crow if some other game features exactly what you describe AND does it well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Out of curiosity, do you have any examples of a ranged Tank with CC capabilities from other MMO's? Because the concept in and of itself seems improbable to me considering the very nature of what a Tank's responsibility consists of, although I'm willing to eat crow if some other game features exactly what you describe AND does it well.

---

SMN tanking Ramuh EX back in 2.x. (And honestly most dungeons prior to 4.0)
Hunter/Warlock tanking in WoW.
SMN/BST tanking in XI.

The most obvious answer being a ranged class with a pet.
In a tab target based MMO, a secondary option is a mix between something similar to a pet, and a turret, that acts merely as a means to transfer the damage to you.

Otherwise u would be doing it action styled like Warrior in Tera, who evades the attacks, except in a few instances when they are out of dodges, and put up temporary buffs, to withstand the hits until they can go back to dodging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Otherwise u would be doing it action styled like Warrior in Tera, who evades the attacks, except in a few instances when they are out of dodges, and put up temporary buffs, to withstand the hits until they can go back to dodging.

---

I'm unsure if you're aware of this but Warriors in TERA haven't been dodge tanks since 2013. It's 2017 lol. With the damage output of DPS classes in TERA now I don't think dodge tank would work anymore.

I also am unsure if it would work in FFXIV with damage output as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

The most obvious answer being a ranged class with a pet.
In a tab target based MMO, a secondary option is a mix between something similar to a pet, and a turret, that acts merely as a means to transfer the damage to you.

---

But, then, you're not the one doing the tanking – your combat pet is. Which makes you filling in a Tank role rather worthless since you're essentially a DPS (or support) either way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xaventh

What are you basing enmity getting harder and harder to keep on? Its going to stay how it is, SE made it more challenging yes, but it won't get worse and tanks can still dps.

---

It will get worse because the difference in attack power between tanks and dps will get wider as higher item level gear comes out.

As far as I'm concerened they have 2 options: Go back to VIT/STR like it was in 3.2 onwards or put STR on tank accessories (at least 50% of the VIT value to make 270 slaying immediately useless).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alkimi

As far as I'm concerened they have 2 options: Go back to VIT/STR like it was in 3.2 onwards or put STR on tank accessories (at least 50% of the VIT value to make 270 slaying immediately useless).

---

I'm hoping the fact that the devs reneged on the VIT/STR balancing they implemented back in 3.x was either merely an oversight or just an experiment of sorts to see if the new system they wanted to implement in its place would be functional, which has proven not to be the case so far. If this isn't fixed by 4.1 or 4.2, then that'll be a real problem going forward, I can imagine. Unless they implement some kind of workaround or adjustment to Tenacity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

But, then, you're not the one doing the tanking – your combat pet is. Which makes you filling in a Tank role rather worthless since you're essentially a DPS (or support) either way.

---

A tanks job is to make sure the enemy isn't hitting the healer or dps, so who cares if your pet is tanking the mobs. As long as it has the agro, it is doing the job of a tank with you pulling the strings on how it does it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferrasper

A tanks job is to make sure the enemy isn't hitting the healer or dps, so who cares if your pet is tanking the mobs. As long as it has the agro, it is doing the job of a tank with you pulling the strings on how it does it.

---

I mean, I guess, but then what is YOUR personal utility as the one playing the class? You can't just be sitting back there like a glorified Pokemon trainer while your pet does all the work for you. You'd either have to bring DPS or support yourself or else you're just dead weight that brings along a far more useful AI companion. Again, I feel that eliminates the point of being designated as a Tank class in and of itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

I mean, I guess, but then what is YOUR personal utility as the one playing the class? You can't just be sitting back there like a glorified Pokemon trainer while your pet does all the work for you. You'd either have to bring DPS or support yourself or else you're just dead weight that brings along a far more useful AI companion. Again, I feel that eliminates the point of being designated as a Tank class in and of itself.

---

You can bring utility and dps while you are managing your pet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

But, then, you're not the one doing the tanking – your combat pet is. Which makes you filling in a Tank role rather worthless since you're essentially a DPS (or support) either way.

---

Semantics.

Thats like saying an evasion tank isnt tanking, since they are not stepping in front of enemy attacks, but instead allowing the attack to go through to their team mates.
It's not about the aesthetics of how it functions, but if it actually fills the role.
It needs to lower the amount a healer heals.
it needs to place bosses in the right spot/direction.
it needs to have damage taken, so healers have something to actually heal.

It can skip traditional tank methods, as long as it fills this role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'm unsure if you're aware of this but Warriors in TERA haven't been dodge tanks since 2013. It's 2017 lol. With the damage output of DPS classes in TERA now I don't think dodge tank would work anymore.
I also am unsure if it would work in FFXIV with damage output as it is.

---

No i havent played it recently, though I did hear about how holding hate is pretty much up to the DPS and their threat drops, rather than the tanks.
As for WAR, it shoudlnt be just dodging away from attacks, as that would actually prevent u from dodging more.
You should be attacking the boss, and turning an attack into a dodge.

If your attack lunges forward, use it to lunge to the mobs side, but at an angle so as to also land the hit on the enemy still.
You should never be "not attacking" with the old style.
If anything, they had to nerf how much more dmg and threat a warrior generated compared to a Lancer, since Lancer relied mainly on Taunt for threat, and sitting still behind a shield.
Some people refused to bring Lancers to DPS checks, due to their in ability to do dmg, while trying to mitigate by blocking.

but yes, things have changed, i heard they have Monk, and Berserker now for tanks.
I dont keep up on it anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferrasper

You can bring utility and dps while you are managing your pet.

---

Yes, which makes you decidedly not a Tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Semantics.

---

Considering this game's adherence to the Trinity, they're important semantics. And I'm not saying anything like what you're implying at all – merely stating that a DPS/support job having Tank functionality does not make them a Tank. Besides, considering that all of these functions are handled just as easily by a Summoner's Titan-Egi, then Summoner seems to be the answer to these grievances about having a ranged-based Tank, provided that you really want to go down that route.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Yes, which makes you decidedly not a Tank.

---

/sigh You control the pet which makes you a tank. You may not think it, but it does make you one because you have complete control of it. I am done with this conversation now because you have what a "tank" is in your mind, and there is no changing that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferrasper

/sigh You control the pet which makes you a tank. You may not think it, but it does make you one because you have complete control of it.

---

I know you said you were done, but your rebuttal begs the question: Does that make Summoner a Tank, then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

I know you said you were done, but your rebuttal begs the question: Does that make Summoner a Tank, then?

---

If they gave more abilities and controls to the titan Egi allowing the SMN to have more agro skills with it, then I would say yes it would qualify as a tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

I know you said you were done, but your rebuttal begs the question: Does that make Summoner a Tank, then?

---

If they took away PLDs ability to move at all during combat, removed all but savage blade, flash, and invincible, but instead gave u a pet that did DPS levels of damage, would you be invited to groups as a tank or a DPS?
My answer depends on your answer.

(In case the direction of my post isnt aparrent, I'll also add in; the pet can dodge mechanics and do all of the mechanics just fine, can do limit breaks, cant be easily targetable by healers, w/o losing their focus target on the boss, to see when the boss uses tank busters, the PLD wouldnt be able to use cool downs for every tank buster, the PLD cant hold hate on trash mobs if the DPS are trying even remotely, unless they wait 30-60s before they start attacking, the amount of dmg mitigated is now lower than a tank in DPS stance not using CDs, the PLD cant voke off another tank, to try and do tank swaps. So on, and so forth. Shoudl PLD be able to queue as a Tank, or a DPS?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hitsuzen

Being out of tank stance just causes the healer to dps less and heal more for a net gain of near 0 dps collectively.

---

This has to be satire? Tanks have to use a stance to lower their damage to only tank so healers don't have to heal as much?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ferrasper

If they gave more abilities and controls to the titan Egi allowing the SMN to have more agro skills with it, then I would say yes it would qualify as a tank.

---

But, see, you had to tack on an additional qualifier to make your case, which means that, as the Job currently stands, Summoner is not a Tank. Nor would it likely be made such even with additions to the abilities of Titan-Egi, but that's just my speculation based on the functions of its other combat pets.

I mean, Monk has a defensive stance and CAN certainly tank for a short time in a party under very extreme circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily qualify it to fill a dedicated Tank role in a party. Not with the way roles currently work in game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

If they took away PLDs ability to move at all during combat, removed all but savage blade, flash, and invincible, but instead gave u a pet that did DPS levels of damage, would you be invited to groups as a tank or a DPS?
My answer depends on your answer.

---

You're throwing out an awfully abstract and unlikely example there, but Paladin would probably be made a DPS instead of a Tank if that were the case.

Again, I feel like you're both overlooking the fact that this game adheres strictly to the Trinity, but it's not my intent to argue the necessity, benefits, and detriments of that role Trinity structuring. That can be saved for another discussion entirely as I have no vested interest in that particular matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

But, see, you had to tack on an additional qualifier to make your case, which means that, as the Job currently stands, Summoner is not a Tank. Nor would it likely be made such even with additions to the abilities of Titan-Egi, but that's just my speculation based on the functions of its other combat pets.

I mean, Monk has a defensive stance and CAN certainly tank for a short time in a party under very extreme circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily qualify it to fill a dedicated Tank role in a party. Not with the way roles currently work in game.

---

I never said SMN was a tank though. That was someone else. Could they become one with added stuff? Sure, but I wouldn't recommend it. I think a puppetmaster would be a better tank then SMN. I was just answering you if they could become one.