How are Tanks holding up from PLD WAR DRK

so anyone have DRK / WAR susano dummy DPS?

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Originally Posted by Steelbreeze

All dps and healers now have enmity tools to help them not pull aggro. Usually if I toss out a few enmity combos I can comfortably go into sword oath for a good while before they start to creep up on me, and if they are paying attention and use their enmity dump it takes even longer.

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Yeah. No.
I don't see any DPS ever using it, heck they don't even take goad as cross class and usually don't have any idea what they are fucking doing. :|
On paper it should be like that but thats mostly only for premade that people take acutally supporting cross class skills.

Paladin <3
lvl64 is gamechanging

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Originally Posted by Kyt

The new paladin rotation is pretty awesome honestly... we have a 2 phase dps system now where you start the fight scorn, spirits within, 1 halone combo and then you hit requiescat into dumping your entire MP pool via holy spirit (5 casts) - you CAN swap to sword oath and pop a ramparte or something here for higher dps but if you're doing current content probably not the best idea. Then your downtime is riot blade combo and shelltron to regain mana before requiescat comes back up. Rinse and repeat. You don't have requiescat yet but it's essentially the same.

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^this
Holy Spirit burn of paladin is great. But I would say to to use Sheltron every 2 Holy Spirits(+20 oath each in tank stance) to help mana.

It has become a style in which you have to watch the threat gauge and adjust accordingly as well as managing your mana/oath gauge.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Yeah. No.
I don't see any DPS ever using it, heck they don't even take goad as cross class and usually don't have any idea what they are fucking doing. :|
On paper it should be like that but thats mostly only for premade that people take acutally supporting cross class skills.

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Aaaannnnnddd THIS. I've has so many people cry when they start to get eaten in trash pulls. Not my fault when they don't even have the aggro dump slotted. I'm always doing everything I can to hold.

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Originally Posted by Sipherous

The DPS tank Meta is pretty much dead at this point and that's not a bad thing. This will require the DPS to actually do their jobs more and not rely on the extra output from Tanks and Healers to meet checks.

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First and foremost, no one expected tanks and healer to meet DPS checks. It was always about equal contribution. The idea DPS just need to "git gud" and that the others roles shouldn't have to deal damage is utter nonsense. The whole point of extra damage is essentially that; damage outside the requirement, thus making content go faster. The only difference is only one role prioritizes it above all else.

Aside from that, no the DPS meta is not dead. All the adjustment cause is players being even less willing to switch back. I guarantee you, Warriors won't be thinking "oh, I better be careful with stance dancing." They'll think, "Heal me because once I turn on Deliverance, I'm never going back." The only thing that will never hinder the DPS meta is content that necessitates more defensive play. I've already seen plenty of tanks pull 6+ mobs and handle it fine. Sure, it's more a struggle currently since everything is new. But that isn't going to last nor suddenly deter players who always played aggressive to stop. On the healer side of things, White Mage is a DPS monster in dungeons. In fact, Cleric Stance was largely abandoned because it made healer DPS feel clunky and frustrating at times. Why punish tanks for the same thing you removed from healers?

Putting all that side, others have already summed up another issue going in the direction the devs have. If less people perceive tanks fun, they simply won't play them. Currently, I find Dark Knight awful because everything I loved about the job was gutting in favour of a simplistic, bare bones approach. I'll see if my opinion changes the more I level it, however this just pushes me closer to sticking with Samurai or picking up the new OP Paladin I hear so many people gushing over. I doubt that is what the devs wanted nor am I alone feeling this way.

Being a WAR myself I learn to adjust and not cry about this in that because that's not warrior like. So for little babyman/woman this is for you.
https://youtu.be/j7leQB_Oe_k?t=1m40s

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Originally Posted by Dezee

Being a WAR myself I learn to adjust and not cry about this in that because that's not warrior like. So for little babyman/woman this is for you.
https://youtu.be/j7leQB_Oe_k?t=1m40s

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Yeah with that attitude we would still have 2.0 WAR.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Aside from that, no the DPS meta is not dead. All the adjustment cause is players being even less willing to switch back. I guarantee you, Warriors won\\'t be thinking "oh, I better be careful with stance dancing." They\\'ll think, "Heal me because once I turn on Deliverance, I\\'m never going back." The only thing that will never hinder the DPS meta is content that necessitates more defensive play.

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The harsh truth. Tanks won\\'t stop trying to DPS and will do anything for it. I\\'m tired of this discussion. Every patch and expansion is the same topic. "Oh my God tanks want to DPS." And no tanks and no end game people keep giving opinions about it and the truth is. More DPS = faster clear = Easier fights.
Even if they remove tanks DPS instance we will keep trying to achieve the best DPS possible.
And guess what? It\\'s fun to DPS as Tank! OMG yeah. We like to contribute to the team DPS!

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Originally Posted by Kothos

The harsh truth. Tanks won\\'t stop trying to DPS and will do anything for it. I\\'m tired of this discussion. Every patch and expansion is the same topic. "Oh my God tanks want to DPS." And no tanks and no end game people keep giving opinions about it and the truth is. More DPS = faster clear = Easier fights.
Even if they remove tanks DPS instance we will keep trying to achieve the best DPS possible.
And guess what? It\\'s fun to DPS as Tank! OMG yeah. We like to contribute to the team DPS!

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Get this madman out of here.

Sitting in Defiance and spamming my 123 combo is the most engaging tanking experience I've ever had in my life.

Stormblood is an expansion for *real* tanks.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

so anyone have DRK / WAR susano dummy DPS?

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WAR and PLD are very close with WAR just slightly higher by double digits dps. DRK falls behind by about 100 dps but overall all 3 tanks are pretty close.

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Originally Posted by Ciderfox

WAR and PLD are very close with WAR just slightly higher by double digits dps. DRK falls behind by about 100 dps but overall all 3 tanks are pretty close.

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i already saw the dummy parser, well in general DRK lose more on dummy since you can't use The Blackest Night.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

i already saw the dummy parser, well in general DRK lose more on dummy since you can't use The Blackest Night.

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Wondering about that too, potentially another BS every ~15 seconds, curious how much those extra would contrast,

No with this attitude I would just tank because that's what I do no matter what. My job is to keep the attention on me so dps do what they do best besides dying so as long as that's getting done I could tank in any patch. Big number don't mean nothing to me unless it's about that gill.

I don't see Holy Spirit being used often in MT'ing, as you are seemingly not able to block, parry and/or dodge attacks during the cast.
Sure, 1.5 cast time seems to be rather quick, but burning the whole mana bar down in one go leaves you with 7.5 of the 12.5 seconds on reduced defense.

But being a OT with a WAR seems to be his ideal place - Burning Req+HS and applying Interventions to the WAR.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

I don't see Holy Spirit being used often in MT'ing, as you are seemingly not able to block, parry and/or dodge attacks during the cast.
Sure, 1.5 cast time seems to be rather quick, but burning the whole mana bar down in one go leaves you with 7.5 of the 12.5 seconds on reduced defense.

But being a OT with a WAR seems to be his ideal place - Burning Req+HS and applying Interventions to the WAR.

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I'm fairly confident that Warrior MT and PLD OT is going to be the new meta. Warrior's Defiance kit is stronger than ever with the new meter, meaning you can have obscene mitigation time by weaving Inner Beasts in between Vengeance, Rampart, and Raw Intuition. This combined with Equilibrium being on a fairly short cooldown, and Upheaval getting bonus damage from defiance, means that WAR could potentially be -the- definitive Main Tank going forward. Along with that is PLD's incredible support and utility skills in Intervention and Cover 2.0, along with their sheer amount of damage output between their two buffs and holy spirit.

Loathe as I am to admit it given my previous complaints about how tanking plays right now, Defiance Warrior is likely the new strongest tank from a defensive standpoint, especially when backed up by a Paladin. I still probably won't play it, but facts are facts.

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Originally Posted by Dezee

No with this attitude I would just tank because that's what I do no matter what. My job is to keep the attention on me so dps do what they do best besides dying so as long as that's getting done I could tank in any patch. Big number don't mean nothing to me unless it's about that gill.

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More damage means many things. It means bigger self heals, it means more enmity, it means ending the fight faster.

A good tank who maximizes damage is also a better job tanking.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

I'm fairly confident that Warrior MT and PLD OT is going to be the new meta. Warrior's Defiance kit is stronger than ever with the new meter, meaning you can have obscene mitigation time by weaving Inner Beasts in between Vengeance, Rampart, and Raw Intuition. This combined with Equilibrium being on a fairly short cooldown, and Upheaval getting bonus damage from defiance, means that WAR could potentially be -the- definitive Main Tank going forward. Along with that is PLD's incredible support and utility skills in Intervention and Cover 2.0, along with their sheer amount of damage output between their two buffs and holy spirit.

Loathe as I am to admit it given my previous complaints about how tanking plays right now, Defiance Warrior is likely the new strongest tank from a defensive standpoint, especially when backed up by a Paladin. I still probably won't play it, but facts are facts.

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Moot point: PLD can block (so inner beasts boon of effecting magic while block doesn't is nullified, with block coming ahead). Equilibrium is shared. Rampart is shared. Paladin has more more group utility, many of which also effect the paladin themselves (like divine veil). PLD has Bulwark, it has Sentinel (which WAR has no equivalent to). Dont know why you included Upheaval at all since PLD has the same skill: Spirits Within.

Its not like having two paladins would prevent one of the paladins from using their kit. Being able to have two interventions is better than having one intervention and one.... nothing, WAR offers the group nothing aside from a damage buffs that others can give.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

I can say now for sure tenacity helps, .

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i can say for sure it does not. in testing the scaling for damage/healing receved/damage reduction from tenacity has shown that 500 tenacity is equal to less that a 1 percent increase. its worse than parry.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

so anyone have DRK / WAR susano dummy DPS?

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on a dummy as a war i am currently getting between 3100 and 3200 dps with full slaying right side. not sure about drk.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Moot point: PLD can block (so inner beasts boon of effecting magic while block doesn't is nullified, with block coming ahead). Equilibrium is shared. Rampart is shared. Paladin has more more group utility, many of which also effect the paladin themselves (like divine veil). PLD has Bulwark, it has Sentinel (which WAR has no equivalent to). Dont know why you included Upheaval at all since PLD has the same skill: Spirits Within.

Its not like having two paladins would prevent one of the paladins from using their kit. Being able to have two interventions is better than having one intervention and one.... nothing, WAR offers the group nothing aside from a damage buffs that others can give.

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I do think that if anything holds back the double PLD meta, it's going to be the LB gauge over WAR's defensive kit, you are entirely correct about that.

DRK/WAR are both in really dicy spots relative to PLD, I'm just going off the assumption (probably false) that we're still going to see two different jobs be taken. PLD/PLD is going to be bonkers strong, and WAR doesn't really provide anything of value outside of it's defensive suite, so I'm really more playing devil's advocate here.

Nevertheless, Warrior's got a thousand problems, I'm making a whole list of them for my own thread on here once I ding 70 on it, but it's defense suite definitely isn't one of them. This is the most durable we've ever been in the history of the game.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

I do think that if anything holds back the double PLD meta, it's going to be the LB gauge over WAR's defensive kit, you are entirely correct about that.

DRK/WAR are both in really dicy spots relative to PLD, I'm just going off the assumption (probably false) that we're still going to see two different jobs be taken. PLD/PLD is going to be bonkers strong, and WAR doesn't really provide anything of value outside of it's defensive suite, so I'm really more playing devil's advocate here.

Nevertheless, Warrior's got a thousand problems, I'm making a whole list of them for my own thread on here once I ding 70 on it, but it's defense suite definitely isn't one of them. This is the most durable we've ever been in the history of the game.

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Warriors lost a flat 10% damage reduction and a massive amount of self healing. They gained no real new defensive benefit aside from being able to inner beast more. I'm not seeing how they are oh so much more durable.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Warriors lost a flat 10% damage reduction and a massive amount of self healing. They gained no real new defensive benefit aside from being able to inner beast more. I'm not seeing how they are oh so much more durable.

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The 10% damage reduction is shared for all tanks since it's a design choice made to remove WAR from the "permanent spot because too stronk" place they were until now. This is irrelevant since it doesn't concern WARs alone, but all tanks in a raiding composition.

On the other hand, WAR traded foresight (which was always nice to have, but if we are to be honest, useless in most cases) for Rampart, which is way more useful AND provides a better defense buff.

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Originally Posted by Tila

They gained no real new defensive benefit aside from being able to inner beast more.

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They also gained a flat damage increase on Defiance, a huge potency boost on Inner Beast, and the ability to use far more beast skills in Deliverance.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They also gained a flat damage increase on Defiance, a huge potency boost on Inner Beast, and the ability to use far more beast skills in Deliverance.

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Which would all be buffs if WAR was meant to be a higher damage tank still, instead all tanks have around the same damage and their overall damage has been lowered due to the removal of strength of ACC leading to far less healing. That 10% was also their primary group utility which they lost and other tanks either still have their group utility (and gained more) or lost their utility but gained one.

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Originally Posted by Tila

Which would all be buffs if WAR was meant to be a higher damage tank still

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I think WAR is still meant to be that. And if your answer is that PLD has a higher damage output...then, for me, PLD needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Tila

their overall damage has been lowered due to the removal of strength of ACC leading to far less healing.

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Every tank suffers that penalty equally. Keep in mind that we also lost Parry in favor of Tenacity which boost our damage, healing and mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Tila

That 10% was also their primary group utility which they lost

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Several high-level WAR claimed that Storm's Eye was WAR's primary utility, and they still have it. Sure, if you have a SAM or a NIN, it's less important, but not every party has one.

I'd still wait for some real field tests to judge each tank's damage output.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

In PvP
WAR is so much fun in PvP however, with the new gap closer you now have that and holmgang to merder those sassy little healers, and with the way the skills have been streamlined WAR feels more fluid than it did pre SB.

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Hmm, how are you not just being blow up when you do that? WAR is now basically a weak hitting goon with 2.5K more HP... basically you need a pocket healer... as a tank. Tanks are pretty much pointless right now in frontlines.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Several high-level WAR claimed that Storm's Eye was WAR's primary utility, and they still have it. Sure, if you have a SAM or a NIN, it's less important, but not every party has one.

I'd still wait for some real field tests to judge each tank's damage output.

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Potency increase on inner beast is pointless as every IB is a lost of a Fell, so it is still a lose. Eye loses most of its value now. both SAM and NIN should be applying the debuff as part of the normal rotation (remember that in HW NIN needed to use a diff rotation if applying). Sure if you are running without a SAM/NIN the debuff will be nice for the tanks, but with tank damage as a % of party dps being even further decreased in SB the increase in raid dps is smaller and smaller, and if the numbers turn out as we think, and Pally is doing 20% more damage, double pally, with or without a NIN/SAM will still be max dps.

Warrior is real bad. Everyone else has already gone on about the clunkiness and the unecessariy heavy nerf, but also I want to underline our... Total loss of identity.

What even am I now? I've been doing this since 2.0. Once upon a time, we were the lifesteal tank. Then we lost a bunch of that and we're still mostly the lifesteal tank but you kept is around for path and eye. Then deliverence happens and we're the flowing, stance dancing DPS lifesteal tank with path and eye. Now it's 4.0 and we're... What. Not a noteworthy DPS tank, no unique buffs/debuffs, no meaningful self sustain outside of tank stance, gameplay is clunky, path is irrelevant and eye is better accessed with a samurai or a ninja. What even is the goal here?

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

Potency increase on inner beast is pointless as every IB is a lost of a Fell, so it is still a lose.

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No, it's not...you use Inner Beast not for damage, but for mitigation...for tanking, which is your primary focus.
And, compared to before, if you need that mitigation, you're doing more damage.

As long as people will throw away any consideration for the mitigation part and only consider pure DPS, you'll only bring problems to future WAR adjustments. In fact, it's probably the overfocus on Fell Cleave in any theorycraft about WAR that turned them into Fell Cleave bots.

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

Eye loses most of its value now.

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WAR is still the only tank to bring that. And you have a higher chance to have one of your two tanks as a WAR than one of your four DPS as a NIN or SAM.

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

and if the numbers turn out as we think, and Pally is doing 20% more damage, double pally, with or without a NIN/SAM will still be max dps.

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Again, for me, that's a problem with PLD. And I say that as a veteran PLD : If PLD really does more damage than WAR on field testing, they should reduce PLD's damage.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

on a dummy as a war i am currently getting between 3100 and 3200 dps with full slaying right side. not sure about drk.

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At 310 left side w/ 310 weapon, and 5x slaying accessories i270, no grit I hit 2731. Though I'm testing out different openers and always making sure to never cap on MP during weapon, they always land between 2600 and 2700. Mind you I have no melds on atm. Right side accs are: aug shire earring, alex neck, alex wrist, alex ring, proto ulti ring

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

on a dummy as a war i am currently getting between 3100 and 3200 dps with full slaying right side

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What's your rotation? I usually fill with Storm Path (when Storm Eye buff is up ofc) still don't know if the loss of Potency (190 + 250 Path vs 200 / 280 Butcher which is 40 potency per chain) is worth the extra 10 gauge I get per chain.

Usually my rotation looks like this:
- Storm Eye Chain to get buff up
- Storm Path x2 + Storm's Eye x1 => 100 Gauge
- Berserk + Inner Release => Fell Cleave x2 / Infuriate => Fell Cleave x3 => Path Chain => Upheaval + Fell Cleave (Inner release runs out right after the 6th Fell Cleave)
- Reapply Storm's Eye
- Storm Path Chain and Fell Cleave if I reach 100 Gauge / Upheaval on CD
- At 60 sec do a usual Berserk / Double Fell Cleave / Infuriate / Fell Cleave / whatever chain / Upheaval
- At 120 sec re-do the Berserk + Inner Release combo

Rinse and repeat. I don't think I get close to 3100 dps though