Summoner and the upcoming changes

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Originally Posted by Iromi

I dont know if anyone realizes but it was confirmed that the build that was previewed was from late April and many changes since have been made.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lily_with_100/

I am taking all of this with a grain of salt..lol. I think Summoner will be fine.

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One week to go until preliminary patch notes. It's looks like it's going to be a very long week lol

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Also there is a very minor variation between Deathflare and Akh Morn but not the huge: Deathflare Ahk Morn

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I made a side-to-side comparison.

I almost cried when I saw that Shadowflare is now a cooldown. Do they realize how often we have to recast that because the mob moves?? I can handle almost every change except for this. It SHOULD NOT be a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by tansypotato

I almost cried when I saw that Shadowflare is now a cooldown. Do they realize how often we have to recast that because the mob moves?? I can handle almost every change except for this. It SHOULD NOT be a cooldown.

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If you have to move your Shadowflare all the time, then don't even put it up. It's a mana waste and a GDC waste.

I do not mind the changes to Shadow Flare, instant cast OGCD, no MP cost, it only lasts 15s from what we've seen in Mrhappy's video.
Overall from information we've gotten even if it's outdated from a older build, if summoner works the way I think it will work, we're dealing with alot less DoT management but more ruin weaving and buildup to bursts.
Being able to maintaint DoT's for 90s using only Tri-disaster? I'll take it.

Interesting thing I noticed in MrHappy's video, during the time we got Bahamut out, the Aetherflow gauge is not locked, makes me wonder if it's worth blowing through as many skills as possible instead of spreading them out like we'd do normally. Also Bahamut seems to use a shockwave when you use Aetherflow itself.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

I dont know if anyone realizes but it was confirmed that the build that was previewed was from late April and many changes since have been made.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lily_with_100/

I am taking all of this with a grain of salt..lol. I think Summoner will be fine.

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"The build was old" sounds like PR damage control after the uproar over White Mage.

I find it hard to believe the changes from April → release will be that profound, although I'd love to. Otherwise, why show the original build at all..?

I guess we'll just have to see in four days. :o

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Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi

I haven't heard any of the top SMNs (people who actually raid with them and know the ins and outs of the class) expressing concern about the class.

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Im far away from top tier or worlds firsts but im raiding as smn since gordios... my personal opinion about 4.0 raids (although we lost Virus and e4e) - there is a spot for smns due to all the xclass skills, egi buffs, emergency res and some of the new skills. Kinda like that we could support the grp even more than before. Wont start a discussion bout personal dps here cause i cant stand it anymore... but for raids our static dont see a reason why i should change raid-cls yet :3

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

I do not mind the changes to Shadow Flare, instant cast OGCD, no MP cost, it only lasts 15s from what we've seen in Mrhappy's video.
Overall from information we've gotten even if it's outdated from a older build, if summoner works the way I think it will work, we're dealing with alot less DoT management but more ruin weaving and buildup to bursts.
Being able to maintaint DoT's for 90s using only Tri-disaster? I'll take it.

Interesting thing I noticed in MrHappy's video, during the time we got Bahamut out, the Aetherflow gauge is not locked, makes me wonder if it's worth blowing through as many skills as possible instead of spreading them out like we'd do normally. Also Bahamut seems to use a shockwave when you use Aetherflow itself.

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Looked like Aetherflow is locked during DWT but not during Bahamut summons.

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Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi

I haven't heard any of the top SMNs (people who actually raid with them and know the ins and outs of the class) expressing concern about the class.

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There are concerns, but our info is basically all from a somewhat dated build used for the media event, and not everything at the media event was tested extensively so there's only so much that can be figured out from the info and gameplay footage available. Summoners are looking like they should be decent from a numbers perspective given the info we have though. My personal gripe is more how boring and clunky it will play in 4.0.

Indeed the first few month will be like a Beta-Test not just for Smns but for all Cls'. There will be balancing patches for nearly every cls later on - people will find exploits like the egi/fairy "bugs" for 100% uptime - devs cant test things like we can as a comm with more than what, 1mio (?) members... we just have to try things out - real balance can't be set with the release, that's utopia : O

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Originally Posted by Neela

Indeed the first few month will be like a Beta-Test not just for Smns but for all Cls'. There will be balancing patches for nearly every cls later on - people will find exploits like the egi/fairy "bugs" for 100% uptime - devs cant test things like we can as a comm with more than what, 1mio (?) members... we just have to try things out - real balance can't be set with the release, that's utopia : O

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SEQ takes forever to do balance changes, and this goes back all the way to ARR. Though they always seem to pay close attention to BLM since I guess it's yoshi main.

I don't understand the usefulness of sustain some people claim here.

The last time I had to sustain was in Keeper of the lake, i think.

And in current content a pet only gets hurt if misplaced and then its either insta dead (e.g. Sephirots cleave) or it gets healed by simple AoE heals ffom healers.

Also maybe they buffed the def./m.def. of them again.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I don't understand the usefulness of sustain some people claim here.

The last time I had to sustain was in Keeper of the lake, i think.

And in current content a pet only gets hurt if misplaced and then its either insta dead (e.g. Sephirots cleave) or it gets healed by simple AoE heals ffom healers.

Also maybe they buffed the def./m.def. of them again.

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Whilst I mostly raid, I did make good use of sustain when I was forced to fate farm for the stupid crystals for my anima D: It was great then. With the loss of sustain, it makes solo content for summoner a bit more difficult. Guess I'm forced to find where I dumped by choco and use him instead.

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Originally Posted by AristocraticCorgi

I haven't heard any of the top SMNs (people who actually raid with them and know the ins and outs of the class) expressing concern about the class.

I will wait until SB to formulate a proper opinion on the state of the job.

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I'm a top SMN (I think) that raids. My biggest concern is that the class looks boring and how our damage is far more DWT centric than before. But my 100% main concern is how boring the class will be as numbers can easily be changed if a class is too weak or too strong. If a class isn't fun to play, I believe it would require far more work than a simple numbers adjustment to change that. Quiet a few things I enjoyed will be changed to make it easier for the average player. That said, I'm optimistic and will wait to see how it plays out!

I guess people will miss it for solo runs and fates and not for partyplay... the question is how useful Titan will be without reg : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

I guess people will miss it for solo runs and fates and not for partyplay... the question is how useful Titan will be without reg : /

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There's a high chance that Titan will be useless simply because Bahamut removes your current pet. So its enmity will probably be reset anyway.

So you'd have to deliberatly not summon Bahamut in order to keep Titan tanking. Which is kinda dumb.

Uh yeah that's a point... so Titan now is just for cls low lvl progress hmm... .___.

Well I saw over at FFXIV Reddit some tooltips pics people are taking at E3. Fester is still 300 Potency and SE needs a good /slap over Devotion because it still states player closest to the Egi or basically Garuda is still mandatory because SMN aren't going to go out of their way to move the Egi around just to try and buff one player. More tool tips too come or SE could just release the patch notes already ><

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCRI2xwWsAEzNg_.jpg

Deathflare's E3 tool tip >u>;;;;;;;

Truthfully I'm not that concerned about the change to Deathflare. It only negatively affects AoE damage, but it kind of evens out when you get two Akh Morn for every two Deathflare.

What concerns me more is that the change to Bane is still in effect. An 80% reduction in damage is pretty harsh and severely harms the damage potential of a Scholar.

Reference images:

http://i.imgur.com/DkAxC0Y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oGT2IKU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/x0SgQCl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qj7WWtm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cAZ9DTU.jpg

E3 SMN Tooltips

So Devotion is absolutely garbage.

...The much touted silver lining to the nerfs, folks. How wonderful.

Deathflare nerfed and flare can still be casted each 10 seconds. Nice love you are showing to Smn, SE.

I love the way Summoner looks. Simplified, less centered around balancing umpteen timers and more around dedicated moments of power.

I could care less about numbers, those can be adjusted with time.

I have not rolled DPS since HW started because of the obnoxious bloat and complexity. I am so excited to play SMN. HOPEFULLY since SE is FINALLY removing the ridiculous button load we can get even more exciting fights since people will have time to look at them instead of their CD's or the enemy debuff bar.

Aetherpact is actually pretty poor ability with correct translations. 5% buff for one party member 15 seconds. Uptime is 15/90 seconds so 16.6% time it is up. 16.6% x 5% = 0.83% dps increase? Probably little more in the opener with cooldowns, but overall pretty poor skill. If it would be buff for whole party it would be something.
http://i.imgur.com/qj7WWtm.jpg

Why does Deathflare need a damage % falloff? It's already gated behind Aetherflow use and DWT ffs.

I hope I feel differently about Summoner when I reach level cap, because right now this is looking like a heap of trash.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I love the way Summoner looks. Simplified, less centered around balancing umpteen timers and more around dedicated moments of power.

I could care less about numbers, those can be adjusted with time.

I have not rolled DPS since HW started because of the obnoxious bloat and complexity. I am so excited to play SMN. HOPEFULLY since SE is FINALLY removing the ridiculous button load we can get even more exciting fights since people will have time to look at them instead of their CD's or the enemy debuff bar.

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You're right, less SMN, more BLM way... Less DOTs, more moments of power... That's wonderful !
Change every class identity each TWO years SE, that's what people are asking...

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Originally Posted by Len

Why does Deathflare need a damage % falloff? It's already gated behind Aetherflow use and DWT ffs.

I hope I feel differently about Summoner when I reach level cap, because right now this is looking like a heap of trash.

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Because SE is nerfing speed runs instead of fixing the actually problems with dungeons and tomes. SMN had the best AoE so they got nerfed the hardest with the AoE crackdown.

It must feel great being a Black Mage, the director of the goddamn game's favorite job.

..Especially when you compare how precisely tailored and beneficial the Stormblood improvements are for BLM and then you look at the stupid changes we get.

Summoner hasn't stopped feeling like an afterthought since it's implementation in 2.0.

This is why the developers should ignore everything the English forums speak about. Constant negativity and naysay before we even touch the product. You cannot know how things will pan out until you actually play it. If they are recalculating potency formulas or gameplay we know only text and a few playtests. Nothing truly constructive.

So I have a question, with the massive nerf to bane, would it not be more effective to just hard cast our DoTs on multiple targets? I mean, we only have 2 now and 1 is instant cast. What kind of damage is it even gonna do with 80% knocked off it?

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Originally Posted by Len

It must feel great being a Black Mage, the director of the goddamn game's favorite job.

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I know you're venting, but SMN has spent a larger portion of this games life as being better or more "meta" than BLM. You're taking blind shots at this point.

at level 70, the two dots will be 50 laid potency and 800 ticking potency, so the "after 4th" ennemies get 200 potency on them. But it takes 30 seconds to get the full 200.

I do agree not to be negative yet about lvl 70, we'll see how it turns out. But all before 70 is a plain nerf and a synced SMN 60 will be 30% less effective than it is now. That bothers me, to be the "shit, never go back !" class, exactly like it has been with Heavensward for 50 and before 50 content (never have I been back in there with the SMN, so boring).
My problem is, if I have to do 60 stuff and still have fun, and I will have to, thanks to memo farm and relics and stuff, I'll have to level up another class. Only way to avoid seeing myself being less effective in dungeon than now. Yoshiii, if I go in roulette with SMN it's to burn useless trash that are of NO interest to get to the boss quickly.

Bane being nerfed is a much bigger deal for SCH. We still have Painflare, which has no damage falloff with more targets, and even in Heavensward Painflare was usually a viable option compared to Bane, unless it was an extended AoE situation like A2S was.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

This is why the developers should ignore everything the English forums speak about. Constant negativity.

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I hate to be a negative nancy myself, but falloff damage for attacks that require stacks to even use is pretty ridiculous. It's not like we have infinite stacks and can use them whenever......I mean I could understand the nerfs if aetherflow didn't have a cd time of a full minute. As is now, we're looking at tons of people complaining about BLM being superman on release, and SE will just buff us again to extreme levels until next patch lol.

On titan, honestly with the removal of sustain titan should just be deleted, replaced or reworked. Increase his tanking abilities, maybe give him a mode where he can actually not tank and just buff/dps. Idunno make him more useful instead of just a limited low level tank.

Idunno about this, but if it's too bad i'll just switch to RDM/SAM until reworking.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I know you're venting, but SMN has spent a larger portion of this games life as being better or more "meta" than BLM. You're taking blind shots at this point.

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I personally won't be jealous if Blm becomes the magic monk of SB - Haven't played MnK in HW, most probably won't play Blm in SB. There will ever be the one cls which provides the strongest personal dmg. Why not Blm for SB? I'm sad about the aoe loss but happy bout Bahamut and the utility for caster-synergy. Blm & Rdm even healers can shine even more cause of us now that's great. After all it's about grp synergy and teamplay and not about who has the biggest ego to pose solo, isn't it? So happiness overlaps at least for me :3

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Originally Posted by Neela

I personally won't be jealous if Blm becomes the magic monk of SB - Haven't played MnK in HW, most probably won't play Blm in SB.

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Same here, again if it turns out that SMN does perform badly in comparison to the competition I'll just hop over to RDM/SAM until the inevitable buff. Nothing, not even super damage can make me go back to BLM, felt like too much of a chore in dungeons with heavy mechanics. That and well I like to be on the move. I find BLM to have the most boring playstyle in the game. I could never understand the BLM mains who would call SMN boring to play when playing BLM meant just being a turret for the duration of a fight. While SMN, perhaps more than any dps job (especially on consoles) required much shifting between your main loadout and the pet loadout to play optimally.

Honestly, SMN looks to be in a very terrifying place, with Ruin III being nerfed, removing 50 potency per cast in Dreadwyrm Trance, the fall off for Deathflare and Bane is simply unacceptable and then Shadowflare is literally the same total damage, but shorter and needs 60s to use.

We now need luck to get back our 200 potency, Ruin is potency 100... for whatever that helps for, we can no longer use Fester or Painflare (why care about Bane now that it's garbage and who uses Energy Drain beyond MP needs?) in Dreadwyrm... but we get Bahamut, right? 30 more potency than our normal pets but he attacks when you do, and you get two 680 potency aoes when he's out. Wait, Black Mage gets quad flares and a 650 potency aoe every 30s? Um.

At least Bio III and Miasma III are kinda overall buffs, even if it costed us a third DoT to stack with them...

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

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Currently Energy Drain is worth 270 potency, due to the Ruin 3 upgrade from 80->200 it grants, so if you don't reach max MP, and get to spend all of it, it's better than painflare. That will no longer be the case, as it goes from a 120 potency increase to a 50 potency increase, making it equal to a painflare, but delayed.. so there is no reason to choose it over painflare.

And I'm not sure if I stated this on the forums already, but I would prefer 2.0 bane over this damage fall off.
Max 3 spread targets, but full potency, makes it much better in common situations (it's better or equal up to 6 targets, so 5 spreads), and allows for multi-dotting anything that wasn't hit by it (which is useful cause we don't have a spam AoE anymore anyway).
Further, any situation with more than 6 mobs tends to be over quickly anyway, so you wont get the full duration on DoTs off, so I rather have a good limited-target bane than a weak unlimited target bane.

Funny thing is, Aero III and Thunder II/IV don't have drop offs... and no other drop off is as harsh as Bane's. Why is this necessary?

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Funny thing is, Aero III and Thunder II/IV don't have drop offs... and no other drop off is as harsh as Bane's. Why is this necessary?

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Probably because bane is off-gcd.. if that's such an issue, I'd not even mind putting bane on the GCD (still costing a stack), if that means it can just keep the HW effect.

Off GCD AND costing a stack feels like it'd be more than necessary to not require a dropoff.