DRK is going to be Nerfed in Stormblood

I believe DRK gotta a straight up damage nerf across the board regardless of the DS changes, the loss of scourge is insane, no replacements for our defensive utilities either, so we ended up losing more skills then gained, we didn't get added skills else where except for a shitty shield THAT NO ONE ASKED FOR.

If i wanted to shield some one i'd play on my astro. I'll trade the shield for scourge any god damn day ffs.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

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To be honest with you...I sincerely have no problems with these changes. In my own personal opinion...yes this is my opinion as you have your own so please be respectful......I personally believe that a tank should never leave Grit Stance unless they are off tanking as you are taking less damage and allowing your healer to do more off damage themselves. Now again, this is all based on my play style. As for all the other abilities....they truly do not bug me. To me, the only people that are upset by this are the Dark Knights that once they pull and aggro a group of enemies they immediately switch Grit off to be more of a burden on the healer. So, please do not insult or disrespect me or anyone for voicing my opinion....

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

To be honest with you...I sincerely have no problems with these changes. In my own personal opinion...yes this is my opinion as you have your own so please be respectful......I personally believe that a tank should never leave Grit Stance unless they are off tanking as you are taking less damage and allowing your healer to do more off damage themselves. Now again, this is all based on my play style. As for all the other abilities....they truly do not bug me. To me, the only people that are upset by this are the Dark Knights that once they pull and aggro a group of enemies they immediately switch Grit off to be more of a burden on the healer. So, please do not insult or disrespect me or anyone for voicing my opinion....

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News flash, even if other players do that YOU don't have to do that. You can keep grit on all day and literally never turn it off if you want, the option was always there. But instead we LOST options.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

I believe DRK gotta a straight up damage nerf across the board regardless of the DS changes, the loss of scourge is insane, no replacements for our defensive utilities either, so we ended up losing more skills then gained, we didn't get added skills else where except for a shitty shield THAT NO ONE ASKED FOR.

If i wanted to shield some one i'd play on my astro. I'll trade the shield for scourge any god damn day ffs.

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shitty shield? it's an awesome defensive tool and by granting 50 blood when broken also a great offensive tool. in the time it takes to come off cd, you will have replenished the mp already. if you use blackest night whenever possible you'll basically have 1.8 times of your HP while gaining access to up to Bloodspiller 4 times per minute.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

News flash, even if other players do that YOU don't have to do that. You can keep grit on all day and literally never turn it off if you want, the option was always there. But instead we LOST options.

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Praesul, I respect your opinion but I am glad we did lose options. Now all Dark Knights will understand that their playstyle is about holding hate, mitigating damage and above all else....being a tank. I do not think that the damage is as severe as you might imagine...or it could be....but would you not say it is fair to wait to actually play before passing judgement?

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Praesul, I respect your opinion but I am glad we did lose options. Now all Dark Knights will understand that their playstyle is about holding hate, mitigating damage and above all else....being a tank. I do not think that the damage is as severe as you might imagine...or it could be....but would you not say it is fair to wait to actually play before passing judgement?

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They were already holding aggro before, they were already mitigating before, they are 100% tanks. Not having grit on doesn't all of a sudden make one INSTANTLY lose aggro and die. If I'm tanking the boss, if I'm taking the hits, if I'm surviving the damage then I'M the tank and no one can say otherwise. You are, 100%, objectively, wrong.

It's not even a slight against you specifically. It's just factually wrong.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

They were already holding aggro before, they were already mitigating before, they are 100% tanks. Not having grit on doesn't all of a sudden make one INSTANTLY lose aggro and die. If I'm tanking the boss, if I'm taking the hits, if I'm surviving the damage then I'M the tank and no one can say otherwise. You are, 100%, objectively, wrong.

It's not even a slight against you specifically. It's just factually wrong.

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As I said....that is based all on your biased opinion on what your playstyle is. I consider you philosophy to be incredibly shortsighted based solely that you do not consider the communities generalized playstyle vs your own! I believe you have a right to voice your opinion....but understand one fact, what I feel and what you feel makes no damn difference in the end. SE will redesign any job they feel does not meet what they consider the correct playstyle. I have my own qualms about SE....but even I admit to this fact even if I disagree with it!

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

As I said....that is based all on your biased opinion on what your playstyle is. I consider you philosophy to be incredibly shortsighted based solely that you do not consider the communities generalized playstyle vs your own! I believe you have a right to voice your opinion....but understand one fact, what I feel and what you feel makes no damn difference in the end. SE will redesign any job they feel does not meet what they consider the correct playstyle. I have my own qualms about SE....but even I admit to this fact even if I disagree with it!

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It is not an opinion. If I'm playing a blue icon job, have the boss' attention, am using mitigation cooldowns, then I am the tank. This is fact. There is no arguing otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

It is not an opinion. If I'm playing a blue icon job, have the boss' attention, am using mitigation cooldowns, then I am the tank. This is fact. There is no arguing otherwise.

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Praesul, lets leave this amicably...let us agree that we both disagree. I hope you still play Dark Knight after SB drops and take care.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

As I said....that is based all on your biased opinion on what your playstyle is. I consider you philosophy to be incredibly shortsighted based solely that you do not consider the communities generalized playstyle vs your own! I believe you have a right to voice your opinion....but understand one fact, what I feel and what you feel makes no damn difference in the end. SE will redesign any job they feel does not meet what they consider the correct playstyle. I have my own qualms about SE....but even I admit to this fact even if I disagree with it!

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Personally, I see nothing more short sighted than the belief that a skill should be called "Tank Stance" and that not being in said stance makes you any less a tank.

I personally prefer to play beyond the bare minimum required to clear content and do more for my group with appropriate skill usage. Looking at some of your other posts, you seem to be under the impression that Grit makes you 100% more durable and grants healers Triple DPS uptime when that clearly isn't the case at all.

For a meager 20% damage reduction, you as a Dark Knight, lose upwards of 40% personal damage due to not only natural grit penalty but the loss of Blood Weapon. Your healer doesn't get 20% more damage as it doesn't simply work that way. If anything, healers, especially in this game, that are worth their salt will barely notice a difference if you use your actual, costless defensive cooldowns appropriately. They already have hots ticking on you, they have a plethora of instant off the GCD heals and their basic cure potency can chunk your hp from 1 -100 in no more than 2-4 casts. What you lose over your entire attack uptime, can never be made up by a healer receiving at best, one additional Stone 2 cast.

I'll never understand the idea that the "proper" tank fantasy should be a walking shield with moderately annoying lights that pose no real threat to their enemies.

I personally prefer a tactically trained holy knight, a ruthless black knight of the abyss, and a battle-crazed barbarian over that. But that's just my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

The loss of scourge is ok wtih me, the 5% darkside buff and the fact that you don't need to use a global on scourge (because it's gone) makes the flow alot better.

I've went through all the tanks skills and gameplay and drk still seems to flow the best, with the best aoe, best dmg, most enmity gain, and just all around better than what the other tanks are getting.

The no mana drain while in Darkside is a big deal, it means way more dark arts and that you can't drop darkside.

Delerium change is good also, I have nothing bad to say about the new dark.

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Have you ever even play DRK? and I mean, end game Raiding etc? cause you sound like someone who never even touched DRK tbh.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

As I said....that is based all on your biased opinion on what your playstyle is. I consider you philosophy to be incredibly shortsighted based solely that you do not consider the communities generalized playstyle vs your own! I believe you have a right to voice your opinion....but understand one fact, what I feel and what you feel makes no damn difference in the end. SE will redesign any job they feel does not meet what they consider the correct playstyle. I have my own qualms about SE....but even I admit to this fact even if I disagree with it!

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But he is correct.

Tanking means holding aggro. If he is holding aggro, he is performing the job's role.

A bad tank will just hold aggro, and that's it.

A good one will maximize his dps while doing it.

More DPS will always help in any situation, so people will always be seeking to maximize it even if it is not their primary role.

Thats like the difference between healers that fiddle their thumbs waiting for the group/tank hp to drop and those who are always in motion doing something useful.

You are there for your main usefulness(heal tank or dps)and you cant neglect that, but that doesnt mean you must only do that, thats just the bare minimun.

The more you can offer to the group the better

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Originally Posted by Falar

But he is correct.

Tanking means holding aggro. If he is holding aggro, he is performing the job's role.

A bad tank will just hold aggro, and that's it.

A good one will maximize his dps while doing it.

More DPS will always help in any situation, so people will always be seeking to maximize it even if it is not their primary role.

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On a side note, I personally disagree with a "tank" being summed up as threat holding.
I'd sum them up as making the healer consume less MP (only to the point of not running out, any remaining MP could have been spent in DPS if the tank wasnt dieing too quickly)

My reason stems from MMOs where some tanks didnt have threat moves, and other classes had to make the boss focus on the tank.

BUT I will make an exception to FFXIV, due to positionals, and DPS checks.
So it's roughly equal in both "enough threat" (too much is pointless), and "enough mitigation". (if the tanks DPS is enough to help with DPS checks, and the healer wont run out of MP, any extra MP the healer has is wasted.)
Even more so with all DPS getting a quelling strikes now, and OTs gaining the ability to threat dump onto the other tank.

Not only that, DPS = enmity so it is also in a tank's interest to DPS to the best of their ability. Even for MMOs where tanks do shockingly low damage compared to DPS this always holds true, DPS = aggro.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

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So, here goes my opinion.
I'm not a burden to healer when I take grit off, because I biuld 2 waves of aggro combo with grit on, then I use Shadowskin, drop grit, DPS, then right before it end I put grit on. Shadowskin = 20% dmg reduction, same as grit, so, with this, I'm gaining 20% damage for the duration of Shadowskin becaus of grit-off. So this is much more PRO than being lazy with all time grit on. Cheers o/
And I do not turn off grit on AoE trash mobs.

Aggro > damage mitigation > damage

We lost damage mitigation and damage.

Tank is the most HARD class, MUST be REWARDING.

Next time do base your OPINION on something I truly told to you, not in you preconception of me.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Not only that, DPS = enmity so it is also in a tank's interest to DPS to the best of their ability. Even for MMOs where tanks do shockingly low damage compared to DPS this always holds true, DPS = aggro.

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Well, the "Win condition" is almost always "kill the enemy(s)" so doing DPS is always the base common feature in all roles. But what makes 1 DPS stand out from another, is that the "Tank DPS" does something else, besides DPS.

(They obviously cant make a tank/healer that cant kill, otherwise they would never get quests done, etc.)

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Tank is the most HARD class, MUST be REWARDING.

Next time do base your OPINION on something I truly told to you, not in you preconception of me.

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No one who tanks will ever take you seriously with your ridiculous tanking is hard nonsense.

Being able to cheese encounters with extra tank dps doesnt equate to skill sorry.

Raiding is a team job, unless your a world first race kinda guild then tank dps is practically NEVER part of encounter tuning.

Sure those of us who raid seriously like to push the boundaries of any class, however crying like a 3 year old that tanking is hard makes me lol.

Try mastering the new DRK and it\\\\\\'s role in the new Content, then bring the tears.

Ok this nonsense made me post over long time aswell.

Tankstance less fight in A12

maintank DTPS value on tank is 1.2k dmg per second and offtank 1.0k DTPS. Mainhealer HPS in that fight is 3.2k Health per second. Off healer healing is 1.5k healing.

this mean that if u whant blame someone taking to much dmg then it is your dps.

overall mainhealer can manage to heal both tanks whitout tankstance who use tank cooldowns correctly.

if thats true then faster you finish fight less healing healer need to do = less manna healer need to sustain = less dmg tank need to midigate.

so skipping mechanics and ruhsing dps is helping all 3 points you ppl argue about.

BTT
As numbers stands ATM Drk will have overall dps increase 4.5% compare to HW when ignoreing stat changes.

Bloodspiller whit DA and whitout DA dont realy mather because u can use DA on syphon or Souleater and dps wong change all 3 skills have 140 potency increase.


about losses = we lose around 3-5% raidwide dmg by loseing repraisal and lowblow oGCD hits what is given us back by increasing our darkside dmg increase by 5%

removal of scourche 500 raw potency will be returned to us by Bloodspiller note that if u whant have fair compare u may not use 520 potency DA hit because u didnt use DA on scourche so. to be fair

u need do around 1,5 Bloodspillers evry 30s to cover loss of scourche.

so where that leave us = it leave u to ground 0 aka back to start.

mechanicaly class changed alot all ppl need learn Drk again but gain factor is 0

where paladin potency increase compare to HW is 54%

and last raid tier pld did 120 dps less then DRK in top tier. and war did 100 dps more then drk.

whit this patch paladin gaining 54% increase warior 15% increase and drk 4-5% increase in potency
ranking in dps on tanks will be
PLD > WAR > DRK
Midigation wise order is same.
this will not mean good for DRK for early start of SB.
This is based on info we have on this day and all is subject to change.

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Originally Posted by Azreal

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And isn't tank difficult to play? Are you going to tell me that DPS is more difficult than tank? LMAO
Enter Ramuh Ex as a blind DPS, and then enter as a blind tank to see which one is the wipe and which one is a carried role.
And did I tell someone that extra tank dps is the same as skill? tsc tsc..

I'm going to master RDM. Seems more challenging than the new brainless DRK.
Mastering the new DRK won't be that hard tho.

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Originally Posted by Eliroth-Kaminari

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Do some math like this guys and you will see the nonsense: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ur-information

i think you should re read link you posted yorself.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=698917636
PLD has 562.5 potency/GCD,
WAR has 458.7 potency/GCD,
DRK has 430.6 potency/GCD,

So, that concludes that DRK new changes won't bring DRk back to 0, it's less. BS potency is not enought to recover Scourge loss and a lot of things that the math of this guys proves that the changes to DRK are actually not very good.

yes - i think u miss read my first post
Nonsense part was ppl argueing should tank dps or not.

BTT- Back to topic
means that i agree whit topic not just nonsense that whent in this topic before i posted.

Oh, I see. My bad xD

Love the changes

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Love the changes

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You love having the lowest potency of all 3 tanks, losing our most damaging ability, getting 3 mediocre abilities in Qu, Bloodspiller, and Blackest Night? And to top it off, getting to spam 1 combo? Love it? Really?

PLD has 562.5 potency/GCD,
WAR has 458.7 potency/GCD,
DRK has 430.6 potency/GCD,

You LOVE this, eh?

My main of two years, literally looks easier now than paladin. PALADIN FOR GODS SAKE!!! Plus these potencies make no sense... you have us lose scourge, reprisal and low blow and give us what. One ability on the gcd that's 520 potency after wasting 2400 mana...? So it's nothing like our free 600+ potency dot, requires less skill to maintain and is a dps lose to use in conjunction to one of the few defensives we have.


-Least defensives out of the tanks
-Least dps out of the tanks
-Over simplified one combo rotation
-Our only upside is that we have Dark Mind.

Did Yoshi really just want to buff PLD to 3.x Warrior and to just switch places with DRK for 4.0....? So much for not introducing a new tank in the name of "class balance". This needs to be addressed ASAP and yes I understand that the build is as of April... however that's not going to bring scourge back, or any complexity that used to be in the job. Still gonna play it, just salty at these baffling and illogical changes.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

And isn\\'t tank difficult to play? Are you going to tell me that DPS is more difficult than tank? LMAO
Enter Ramuh Ex as a blind DPS, and then enter as a blind tank to see which one is the wipe and which one is a carried role.
And did I tell someone that extra tank dps is the same as skill? tsc tsc..

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Sorry princess, just because a tank can wipe the raid in a particular encounter that a dps with no idea can\\'t doesn\\'t make tanking harder. Unless you can make a valid argument as to why you think it\\'s so hard please stop.

Bottom line is tanking like any other role requires encounter and class knowledge, it\\'s no harder than healing or dpsing. In fact tanking is ridiculously easy in most content.

PS people are talking about tank dps because you used that as a definition of being skilled, your example of game play and saying noobs don\\'t do it.

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

Still gonna play it, just salty at these baffling and illogical changes.

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I'd actually advise against that if you're unhappy with the changes.

SE is unlikely to react to things like this if people are still gonna play the job - They'll just think it didn't hurt the job and feel justified.

I'm not too bothered about specific potencies, those can be adjusted. Little disappointed with how uninspired blood gauge is though.

Ok guys i think we need to chill until the patch notes on 15th as yoshi-p has stated the build the media tried on was an old april build so alot of things might have change since then so i think we should just wait for 15th patch notes before we speculate any further..

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Originally Posted by Falar

Not only that, DPS = enmity so it is also in a tank's interest to DPS to the best of their ability. Even for MMOs where tanks do shockingly low damage compared to DPS this always holds true, DPS = aggro.

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In that case I might as well just stay in my tank stance, since DPS=aggro, i can get even more aggro!

I think there is something important that a few people on here are actually misunderstanding somewhat, the info we've been fed currently is all we have to theory craft on but these numbers aren't final and are still subject to change. So lets drop the doom and gloom until we actually have it, hands on, and then start making opinions about whats good/bad about the changes because it seems most of us are worried about our DPS standing with the other tanks. You should see the WAR posts, even they are upset about the changes that are coming there way and they feel a lot more penalised for some reason.

SE's idea about balance is a joke, true, but I feel what they were aiming for was that every tank class had something to bring to the table, whether you were MT or OT. But there are a few things I will agree with though, yes we lost Scourge, yes we lost Delirium as a damage dealer outside DA Souleater, if you had to recover MP so you wouldn't drop Darkside by over spending on your mana by an error. Dark Dance is gone, Low Blow/Reprisal procs are gone, sad sad times. But we have been given new skills to compensate for the skills which were good ogcd's to weave into our rotations.

Personally I think Bloodspiller will be great in and out of grit, not to mention the Blackest Night, we can pre charge our blackblood before pull. WARS and PLDs cant do that as far as I know, for a cost of DA yes... But that can be recovered before pull still. 5% increase on Darkside with no mana ticks? Sounds promising, at least the bad Darks wont have any excuse not to have DS up during runs and not to mention our combo for aggro generation and dps has been made simplier although I can't fathom why some felt our combos were complex and using scourge felt out of place when it was perfectly fine even in burst openers. All in all, i'm a little underwhelmed about these changes too and it seems we have less skills than both PLD and WAR. Our job has been simplified, for better or worse I don't know but can we please wait till release then make up our minds then? Savage wont be for another four weeks come release, sounds like enough time to theory craft to me...

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Originally Posted by Azreal

Sorry princess, just because a tank can wipe the raid in a particular encounter that a dps with no idea can\\'t doesn\\'t make tanking harder. Unless you can make a valid argument as to why you think it\\'s so hard please stop.

Bottom line is tanking like any other role requires encounter and class knowledge, it\\'s no harder than healing or dpsing. In fact tanking is ridiculously easy in most content.

PS people are talking about tank dps because you used that as a definition of being skilled, your example of game play and saying noobs don\\'t do it.

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While I understand why you think that shouldnt count towards deciding if something is harder or not, deciding what is "Harder" is not measurable for everyone, at best you can try to find an average for the largest number of people, but it will not, and can not be applied to each person, because its a vague perception.

You cant even say someone has a good memory because people are better at remembering various different things, while being bad at other ones.

In short, most people tell me X jobs are easier, and X jobs are harder, while I find the reverse to be true.
And this will always be dependent on the person.

You say the class mechanics of a DPS is more complex.

You're not wrong
but thats not all there is to a role.

knowledge of a fight is part of a role.
also being able to see what a fight is trying to convey to you, w/o as much needed prior knowledge is also a skill that helps.

I can practice my rotation for a DPS outside of the fight, and in most harder content, that wouldnt change.

So eventually, no matter how much complexity a DPS gets, it eventually becomes easier when you keep doing the same thing over and over.

This doesnt mean DPS is easier either.

Because some fights require the DPS to do the mechanics to win.

But now some people know the DPS is important, so they make healers/tanks do any extra mechanics they can, to make sure DPS stick to DPSing the same rotation.

Personally I find tanks "easier" than DPS, but I have DPS friends who can do great, but cant do great as a tank, because they cant adapt as well.

With enough practice in THAT fight, they get better. (and to an extent im almost as bad, as I'm just mediocre in my ability to adapt.)

Endgame tanks need to coordinate with eachother, and with their healers a bit more often than DPS coordinate with eachother. (also depends on party makeup)

blah blah blah, so on, so forth.

it's up to an individual to decide what is harder for them. and to both people, dont decide it for someone else.

True but u cant go over limitation that skill numbers bring.
No matter how good pld u are in 3.0 u cant overcome War dps.

No matter what changes come on the 16th, one thing is clear

We lost complexity

If anything numbers can always be adjusted and such... however nothing is bringing Scourge back, nothing is bringing delirium back (even if it was only used for its int debuff and more damage over soul eater) nothing is bringing back Dark dance, reprisal procs and low blow procs. We now only have 2 combos, other tanks have 3. We now have the least defensives of the 3 tanks without cross classes. If anything I feel Bloodspiller needs to be oGCD with a 5~ second cooldown with maybe 60 more potency? As it stands right now it's just a button you press whenever you get 50 blood. Not really intuitive or special, it's just there and doesn't bring anything to the resource game that DRK's were known for.

All in all, this sucks and I hope PLD/PLD is the new meta (looking that way from April build numbers, if anything might be PLD/War)

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

Ok guys i think we need to chill until the patch notes on 15th as yoshi-p has stated the build the media tried on was an old april build so alot of things might have change since then so i think we should just wait for 15th patch notes before we speculate any further..

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My issue is that if they aren't going to get a LOT of feedback on this well ahead of time, then they need to make sure it's perfect. Yoshi plays BLM and from what I've heard from my BLM static member, changes are solid. Why isn't there someone on their development team passionate about each job? No main DRK, passionate about that role, would sign off on these crappy adjustments as late as April. Either get your act together and have a crew dedicated to adjusting each job to a fun and competitive level or open some test servers and get feedback earlier than -60- days before launch. It feels lazy and unacceptable to have this many oversights with this many jobs as of April.