Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

Actually if you want a "no discrimination" queue system where everyone gets queued together, didn't you have that in NA/EU data centers before RF was introduced? How well did those thordan and a4s DF queues work in 3.2?

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The image is of the duty finder window, not the queue window. The one that you have to look at before you queue. .

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I think you're misunderstanding how the duty finder works.

if you've got 7 people already queud for a duty and none of them have bonus and the 8th person that does have bonus joins the queue where does you're notification pop up then??

or if you've got 17dps in the queue and 4 of them have bonusbut might not be front of the queue what happens then. maybe they weren't front of the queue but someone missed the ready check and now that bonus guy has taken the empty spot........ where does the newbie notification come up now?

i can see how it might work for full parties using the party finder. but when you look at individuals using the duty finder your suggestion just wouldnt work.

so you want to abolish the raid finder because you think its uneccessary but your idea would not work in the duty finder. party finder groups might find it useful i admit. but you're talking about abolishing the raid finder and using the duty finder instead but it wouldn't work as my examples above show.

unless you're going to give them first 7 people queuing the option to queue with cleared people only. in which case its no different to the raid finder at all.

your suggestipn seems to recreate the whole reason the raid finder was added in the first place

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Irrelevancies

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What part of full premade party don't you understand?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

On a side note, you seem pretty obsessed with calling newbies peasants and unwashed masses...

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing, either. This is why games like Overwatch have ranked matchmaking--it sucks for a newbie to get paired with someone who plays nonstop. It sucks for someone who wants to farm something to know that every DF that pops comes with the possibility of someone hopping in without even watching the vid and expecting the fight to be easy enough to do.

If a player doesn't want to teach they shouldn't be forced to, and yet without raid finder the chances are high that they'll have to. A fight that should take ten minutes suddenly takes up to 90 and what time the player had to farm is now up, and so is the free time the player set aside to farm. So they'll go instead to party finder and pray nobody sneaks in hoping for a carry, and DF will be even more dead than RF Uncleared is, meaning people hoping to just experience the fight have even less chance of doing so.

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People certain treat new players like the unwashed masses. Do you have a better analogy?

Matchmaking in competitive games is not a fair comparison. It's actually kind of the opposite in a cooperative experience. If you're inexperienced and you get put against an experienced player in Overwatch, you're going to fail (lose). But if you're inexperienced and you get paired with experienced players in a trial, you're more likely to succeed. (And if you get paired only with inexperienced people, you're less likely to succeed.)

Your interpretation of how DF and RF will affect things is based on the premise that players with clears are universally unwilling to help new players. I can't honestly say if that's true or not, since I don't do Extreme trials except with friends, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. And if there's even one person with a clear who will use DF if RF isn't available, that's still a positive for a player without a clear. I don't understand how you can argue it makes new players less likely to get a clear. At worst, it's no different.

Keep in mind the premise of the OP's request is that new players are a liability. If that's the case, why are we expecting them to get clears with each other?

So, you two are arguing about two different use scenarios. Rongways suggestion of visible duty completion in DF has been, since beginning, for full parties only. This clearly includes first forming the said full party, most propably through PF. In this use scenario, it is reasonable to say that the RF doesn't add anything else to the table.

However, the use scenario Dzian is going after is one where solo player can queue into random party finder with the comfort of knowing they get into a party of those who have completed it. This approach would skip the forming of the farm party outside of the finder. In that use case scenario the suggested feature to DF would not give any results.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

What part of full premade party don't you understand?

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ok you don't understand the problem.

the raid finder was added because it was impossible for people to clear content in the duty finder thus no one used it. and those that did would queue for an hour for thordan get in wipe in 4 mins and disband and go back to the queue... it was much the same in arr if you tried to duty finder coil or extreme primals back then that is the reason they added the raid finder.

party finder and premades are completely irrelevant at this point... the raid finder exists to help indiviuals not premade parties find players that fit there skills and abilities....

whether that be helping individuals finding players thant can reliably farm content they've already cleared or helping individuals find players willing to learn content they haven't cleared....

so if you want to get rid of raid finder you need to put something else in it's place that offers that functionality to the player

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I think you're misunderstanding how the duty finder works.

if you've got 7 people already queud for a duty and none of them have bonus and the 8th person that does have bonus joins the queue where does you're notification pop up then??

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You seem to be pretty informed on the game and I would really like to know why the primals started going with these raid heavy mechanics instead of just more individual effort fights. Before sep there was nothing I recalled that required nearly as much coordination before it with the tethers and the towers or the blue puddle. And I would say sep is def not harder than say even ramuh extreme which yea had its dps checks but wasnt something you had to have voice chat for.

Same thing with all the stacking in Sophia and doing everything as one unit like these arent raids then why the hell are the mechanics like this it really pisses me off. You can still make content challening without putting so much on team work when most people will be doing this content with randoms because they dont have statics are friends to do things with. These hw primals had way to much grouping and way to many if one person screws up everyone's dead mechanics which thus feeds the no bonus community instead of having them based on what one does as an individual in the group.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

You seem to be pretty informed on the game and I would really like to know why the primals started going with these raid heavy mechanics instead of just more individual effort fights. Before sep there was nothing I recalled that required nearly as much coordination before it with the tethers and the towers or the blue puddle. And I would say sep is def not harder than say even ramuh extreme which yea had its dps checks but wasnt something you had to have voice chat for.

Same thing with all the stacking in Sophia and doing everything as one unit like these arent raids then why the hell are the mechanics like this it really pisses me off. You can still make content challening without putting so much on team work when most people will be doing this content with randoms because they dont have statics are friends to do things with. These hw primals had way to much grouping and way to many if one person screws up everyone's dead mechanics which thus feeds the no bonus community instead of having them based on what one does as an individual in the group.

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Ramuh Extreme required a lot of coordination to make sure terror was consistently cleansed. It didn't require voice chat, but it certainly helped. And the same is true for Sophia: everyone can learn the mechanics, at which point voice chat isn't really necessary. I haven't done Sephirot or Zurvan extreme, but the other HW extremes seemed pretty much on par with ARR's mechanical complexity to me.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

You don't seem to know the proper meaning of 'discriminate' because this is a perfect example of it.

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"Excluding" people based on their experience is not discrimination - if you apply for a job that asked for three years of experience without ever having worked in that buisness at all and they go with someone who can bring five years of experience to the table, was that discrimination? No, it wasnt - they hired the person who could get the job done for them, because thats what they were looking for, instead of teaching a new kid how the buisness runs.

Its not a "no lala"-queue (that would be discrimination) - its "I would like to do X* - please, match me with people who share my goal as close as possible to make my experience in this game more pleasent"
*X can be both here: Learn the fight aswell as farm the fight.

Throwing around a word like "Discrimination" - which is a real problem for women, muslims, people of colour (and depending on your culuture potientially many more - they may forgive me for cutting them off here) - when it comes to seperate queues for people with different intrests in a video game seems a bit excessive, honestly.
We all should be playing because we enjoy the game - it might differ from person to person though what they are enjoying in the game right now. A chain is as strong as their weakest link - and a ex-primal/raid-group can only progress as fast as their slowest memember. Its very frustrating to always go snailpace when you're a cheetah (probably a bit excessive, but hey). Ideally the RF would be used to split people into "learning the first phases" - "learning later phases and ready to get the kill" - "know the fight, got the kill, want to kill some more (=farm)"
But you know why that doesnt work? Because people who havent seen any of the fight yet queue for "later phases". Because people join farm parties when they havent gotten the kill yet - without asking if its okay and explaining themself ("Hey, I got this boss to 5% like seven times, but never got the kill - is it cool that I come along?"). Because people put up PFs with "Kill party" or "Clear for a friend" and suddenly you find yourself with seven people who need explantions about "There will be pruple circles on the ground, putting bleed on you - dont stand in them. (And why the hell am I explaining this in a kill-ex-primal-group?! Didnt you learn that in Brayflox? Oh no, my bad... green puddles there...)"

We all want to play this game and have some fun with it - my idea of what is fun might differ from yours. Fun for me might be to finally get that bird - while fun for you is to finally get the kill.
And that doesnt go well together - I play the game as much for fun as you do. I'm not here for your fun. I'm not here as a forced teacher. There might be occassions when I'm having fun teaching (and for me, personally, there certainly are) - but there are also occassions when fun is: Quick, fast kills with a group of people who know what they're doing.
And if thats what I want right now, DF isnt an option. It is only an option for those who "just want to see the fight", making it useless for those who want to farm it.
I'm simply asking of the DF to pair me up with people of my own skill/experience-level - that can be both first timer or farmer. Personally, I would feel bad being the snail in a group of cheetahs, knowing fully well that the problem here is me. I am not so delusional and self-absorb to believe that everyone out there is playing the game to help me (or any other newbie) to get through content.

And a lot of posts from people who dont like the idea of seperating farm-people in DF from learning people seems to go into that direction: "Oh no, those poor newbies wont get the help of experienced people anymore! They wont end up in groups that can potentially kill the boss anymore, because they're not getting the 4 people who have this on farm and testing their luck in DF anymore!"
Not only is this way of thinking very belittling towards newbies because it implies that they need this help and arent able to challenge the fight themself (and if they really cant: maybe they should go back and practice a little more - do you believe that everyone who has killed it was born with the knowledge about how to kill Zurvan EX? No - they learnt their ropes aswell. I am playing this game since 2.0 now, its not so surprising that I know mechanics better than a person who started last week. And its not wrong to tell that person "Yeah, you gotta practice a bit more before you can do this" - quite different even, this is a way of progression next to gear-progression.) - it also leads to a lot of frustration for the person who would like to get a nice, clean kill in. A person, I remind you again, who is playing a game, just like newbie. Newbie having fun isnt more important than Oldie having fun. The RF-queue-option reflects that by letting everyone pick what comes clostest to the experience they consider "fun" right now.

If you are however on about how long the queue times are for certain primals: thats not a problem with RF. It was the same in ARR and DF for certain, more difficult primals since there was no point in queueing for them - specially not, when you had killed the primal and wanted to farm. Chances of getting a kill were and are so low that if you want to farm it, you have to take the slightly bitter pill of making a PF.
I sincerly doubt that a lot of people who are queueing for EX-primals with "clear" selected would queue normally. They queue becaus ethey know its "safe" to do that. Because they know they wont waste their free afternoon with a bunch of strangers and leave the game for work with the feeling to have accomplished nothing.

Asking for a "farm"-option in DF (what RF basically provided) is not discrimination. Its there to match people with matching goals and experience on the fights. You know how they're having swimlanes in swimming pools sometimes that are reserved for people who want to excersice seriously? Because thats "fun" for them and their goal right now? We are asking for that - we are not asking for a "no lala"-option.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

"Excluding" people based on their experience is not discrimination - if you apply for a job that asked for three years of experience without ever having worked in that buisness at all and they go with someone who can bring five years of experience to the table, was that discrimination? No, it wasnt - they hired the person who could get the job done for them, because thats what they were looking for, instead of teaching a new kid how the buisness runs.

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I believe I was the first one to use the term "discriminate" in this thread, and I am sorry for doing so. I actually meant it in the non-loaded sense of deciding whether to include something or not. You're right, the raid finder does not qualify for the pejorative sense of discriminate. That's why I switched to using exclude.

Before RF, you couldn't queue for extremes in the DF unless you had a premade full party anyway when the EX trial just came out. They only allowed solo queueing a couple months later. So it being in the RF was somewhat of an improvement for solo queuers, maybe they kept some of them in there too long though.

3.1 (Thordan): The quests "The Limitless Blue (Extreme)" and "Thok ast Thok (Extreme)" have been adjusted as follows:
Players may now queue solo via the Duty Finder. (Ravana, Bis)

3.2(Sephirot): Players can queue solo for The Minstrel's Ballad: Thordan's Reign via the Duty Finder.

3.3(Nidhogg): Players may now queue solo for Containment Bay S1T7 (Extreme) via the Duty Finder. (Sephirot)

3.4(Sophia): RF (Sophia EX), Thordan+ moved.

Starting with Sophia EX in RF, you could queue as solo as soon as patch day. Before that the policy they settled on was they wouldn't even add a solo queue until they added echo.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Your interpretation of how DF and RF will affect things is based on the premise that players with clears are universally unwilling to help new players. I can't honestly say if that's true or not, since I don't do Extreme trials except with friends, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. And if there's even one person with a clear who will use DF if RF isn't available, that's still a positive for a player without a clear.

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Not exactly, pre 3.3 DF for hard contents like thordan ex and a3s-a4s (post nerf and overgearing) in NA/EU data centers seemed to be pretty much dysfunctional, since new players won't be able to learn the whole fights in 60-90 minutes. DF queues for those fights became useless since people who want to practice later phases or aim to clear, let alone farm can't do what they want then they get matched with someone who's new to the fights. It's just an unofficial "first phase practice" queue, presumably with very abysmal clear rate, though I'm not playing in NA/EU data centers so I can only say that based on what people say in the forum. If those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear. The DF system in JP data centers worked because of the culture adopted by the players here, where DF is pretty much reserved for farming (or at least those who are ready to aim to clear), with little exceptions of people who have no idea queuing into those hard fights.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Keep in mind the premise of the OP's request is that new players are a liability. If that's the case, why are we expecting them to get clears with each other?

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We are expecting them to learn the fight first before expecting clears. Other than sophia and zurvan I don't remember any previous ex trial being possible to be cleared by people new to the fight within one lockout.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

ok you don't understand the problem.

the raid finder was added because it was impossible for people to clear content in the duty finder thus no one used it. and those that did would queue for an hour for thordan get in wipe in 4 mins and disband and go back to the queue... it was much the same in arr if you tried to duty finder coil or extreme primals back then that is the reason they added the raid finder.

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That might be slightly mispresenting the point. While it is true that before RF all raids and ex primals were in the DF, it was not possible to queue into the latest raid or ex primals without full party. It was technical limitation, not just practical one. You were forced to gather one, either by having a static or, indeed, through PF. However both of these methods were limited within the server drastically cutting the pool of possible participants. Raid finder was an attempt to give change to break this server barrier for the content that was, rightfully, considered too hard to be released to totally random parties. Howevr while announcing "practise from start" or "after adds" or similar worked to a point in PF those different options in RF didn't achieve the same result, they only divided the pool of non completers into different queues that never got through. This the only usable part of the RF was the ultimate toggle for completion.

Cross server PF is the second take to the same situation. Does it force people to be a bit social to actually look for a farm party? Yes it does. But that's not different from the same limitations in place before RF.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Not exactly, pre 3.3 DF for hard contents like thordan ex and a3s-a4s (post nerf and overgearing) in NA/EU data centers seemed to be pretty much dysfunctional, since new players won't be able to learn the whole fights in 60-90 minutes. DF queues for those fights became useless since people who want to practice later phases or aim to clear, let alone farm can't do what they want then they get matched with someone who's new to the fights. It's just an unofficial "first phase practice" queue, presumably with very abysmal clear rate, though I'm not playing in NA/EU data centers so I can only say that based on what people say in the forum. If those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear. The DF system in JP data centers worked because of the culture adopted by the players here, where DF is pretty much reserved for farming (or at least those who are ready to aim to clear), with little exceptions of people who have no idea queuing into those hard fights.

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You said that if "those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear" but the alternative (the raid finder option, which is what is being asked for in this thread) is that the people who are farming will queue and the newbies still won't benefit at all, because they can't queue with them. Unless you mean that newbies will be able to use the duty finder to queue with other newbies who also don't have clears, but I don't know why that would improve their chances either.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

We are expecting them to learn the fight first before expecting clears. Other than sophia and zurvan I don't remember any previous ex trial being possible to be cleared by people new to the fight within one lockout.

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This thread is about an option to prevent people without a clear from queuing with people who don't want to queue with them. If those people learn the fight, or have even done it on another character, they still can't queue with them in the raid finder. So how does them learning the fight help them here?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Ramuh Extreme required a lot of coordination to make sure terror was consistently cleansed. It didn't require voice chat, but it certainly helped. And the

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I do not recall such a stacking mechanic in arr anywhere, and you may not need a voice chat for sophia but it is punishing if the stacking mechanics arent done properly. In sep if one person screws up tethers its pretty much a reset, in zurvan if one person screws up soar or two then its a done deal. I dont see this anywhere in the other primals , there are things you have to do in shiva extreme like spreading etc but three people could die and you can still recover. Leviathan there is no such group activity at all, not even in titan extreme its all on individual effort, but when you put in mechanics where one person can ruin the whole run you will get many parties with the no bonus or dont join us mentality.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

You seem to be pretty informed on the game and I would really like to know why the primals started going with these raid heavy mechanics instead of just more individual effort fights. Before sep there was nothing I recalled that required nearly as much coordination before it with the tethers and the towers or the blue puddle. And I would say sep is def not harder than say even ramuh extreme which yea had its dps checks but wasnt something you had to have voice chat for.

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Even if certain mechanics are more an individual effort there were mechanics way before Seph Ex that required the whole party to pay attention - and if one person messed up, it could mean a wipe.

Garuda EX - Kill spiny to early - the whole raid is dead. One person (or even one Egi, always lovely) was enough to mess that up. (Also: stack in the bubble to avoid damage - not so different from stacking to share damage, right?)
Titan EX - people used to bait the puddles, specially the doppel-ones in the last phase. Proper stacking and simutaionsly dodging was required to dodge them.
Ifrit EX - Nails were killed in a specific order, to make sure that they all died while no one was to close to the healer that had this bomb-thing. Theter out two people together, who had to stay clsoe to each other. Ifrit charges required the whole group - except the one bomb-healer, careful! - to move together.
King Mog EX - aaaah, beautiful! No one kills a moggle early, please! Watch out - is there someone else attacking the moggle your chewing on? Is someone interrupting that BLM - or do you risk it to give it a slap and eventually mess it up for everyone? Also: Did you make sure that there was at least one dps close to the paladin, to avoid both healers getting confused? (That mechanic targets the three people closest to the paladin and puts this moggle-confuse on them - one will hopefully be the tank tanking the paladin, the two others shouldnt be both healers...)
Leviathan EX - Whos getting the shield-thingie? Is everyone attacking the adds? And who the hell is pushing Levi down when he really shouldnt take anymore damage?! (Granted, this one most likely requires not a lot of effort when it comes to coordination)
Ramuh EX - KING of coordination! Do tanks need orbs? Should the party clear them? Is it safe to break the theter - or do we have to let tanks them first because thats more important? Is someone getting the charmed people? Did both of them made it to A or not? (And why is that dragoon standing next to me? Aaaaaah, ramuh will kil... ah, yeah, dragoon dead, cool)
Shiva EX - Stack behind her to share sword, dont stack for staff and ice puddles. Everyone make sure they got their safespot for that. Stack behind her to bait avalanche, BUT! make sure you move out of that if you dont have the blue mark!

For HW-primals...

I cant really think about mechanics like that for Bismarck and Ravana - Bismarck because it probably has non and Ravana, because its been ages since I've done the fight properly... and I dont have it down as much as the ARR-primals. However:

Thordan EX - Get your towers! Stack infront of the healer! Stack with the marker - on the tank, please, but dont stack when you have the other marker! Granted, they said they overdid it with Thordan...

...I can go through the other HW-primals, if you like? But let me tell you this: All fights are pretty scripted. You can learn them by heart and if everyone knows whats happening, no team coordination is required, because everyone know what they have to do and where they have to be at any given time. Stacking in Sephirot? Easly an individual effort - you just have to know where you have to stand. Can one person mess that up easly for the whole group and wipe them? Sure - but that was already the case with the very first EX-primal, Garuda. Now, that everyone is either doing ARR-primals unsyched or way overgeared you dont see a lot of mechanics anymore. No surprise that it seems that there are non and that those primals never required coordination - when they did, infact. A year from now, the towers and stacking in Seph wont matter anymore either. Healers will be able to heal through the damage and he will be dead before the blue puddles even have a chance to mess with you.
Primals are simply not a solo-challenge. If you want a solo-challenge playing an MMO is probably a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I do not recall such a stacking mechanic in arr anywhere, and you may not need a voice chat for sophia but it is punishing if the stacking mechanics arent done properly. In sep if one person screws up tethers its pretty much a reset, in zurvan if one person screws up soar or two then its a done deal. I dont see this anywhere in the other primals , there are things you have to do in shiva extreme like spreading etc but three people could die and you can still recover. Leviathan there is no such group activity at all, not even in titan extreme its all on individual effort, but when you put in mechanics where one person can ruin the whole run you will get many parties with the no bonus or dont join us mentality.

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You dont recall those mechanics because you didnt do those fights when they were current content, as you have stated a few times in threads regarding this issue. Today you can recover from three dead people in Shiva EX - but did you know that she has an enragetimer? Actually, she has two - adds have to die fast enough and she gets stacks of her damage up buff (goes up to 16, at 12 you're pretty much fucked - and even if you consider Shiva attractive you dont want that...). To mayn people die - thats about it for the raid.
I've seen Zurvan parties recover from people dying to soar or messing up theters. Two people messing up theters is nasty, but you can still clear the fight.

I don't see what the problem is here. People who can farm trials don't want to play with people who haven't cleared the trial. I think that's fair - it'd mean potentially wasting seven other people's time because one person has questionable skill or knowledge of the fight in question.

On the other hand, PF learning parties definitely work, and they don't just magically disappear from existence a few hours after a fight is released. It was only recently that I cleared Thordan EX and Zurvan EX, but the learning and clear parties that I created filled up within minutes.

Long-term, I would like to see a merge of the RF functionality into DF so that everything is in one place. There are so many people wondering how to even queue for the things that used to be in the RF because they don't know it exists.

I think another issue here is the attitude that new players just want a free easy clear. Which is a blanket generalization that is of course true for some but not others. I find it interesting that folks are telling the players with no clears to go to the party finder because of "X" then get all flustered when the that is said to them. The simple fact is both sides want smoother easier access to the content. The problem as it is now is those with the clear have the easier access whether or not they are skilled players. Meanwhile, those without the clear are struggling to find groups to clear. There has to be middle ground somewhere but this community has become so against the bonus unless they happen to be farming said resource. I'd wager most new players who want to do the primals and raids want to do so to enjoy the content. They might be more casual but that does not equate to them being less skillful.

As to the person who complained about the raid mechanics in primal battles...I'm not sure what the issue here is. It has always been that way. The difference was you had hard mode primals which gave you a reward to progress, the. Extremes came along with another reward. Only extremes are giving people rewards now. This also needs to change imo.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

As to the person who complained about the raid mechanics in primal battles...I'm not sure what the issue here is. It has always been that way. The difference was you had hard mode primals which gave you a reward to progress, the. Extremes came along with another reward. Only extremes are giving people rewards now. This also needs to change imo.

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hard moods are way to easy to get a reward from

In my experience this is a good move. RF did not work for solo queue into old ex primals.
I got my Thordan and Sepirot Ex clears in DF before they were moved to RF. Never got either to pop in RF under any setting.
Got into Nidhogg Ex twice in RF with hours of queuing before finally giving up and moving to PF.
Sophia was the one ex primal I had work in RF. Most likely because she was released at the same time as RF and considered PUG friendly.
Zurvon I got into once or twice before his queues died. I think Cross Server party finder killed him and the RF in general since I didn't have any luck with Sophia queues either post 3.5.

As a tool for checking if everyone in your premade had a clear RF was useful. But I think that can be fixed by just adjusting the PF to have a checkbox for clears only and not letting people without clears join groups with that checked off.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

hard moods are way to easy to get a reward from

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They weren't back in ARR, however hard mode in HW is different than ARR. hard mode should be the entry lvl primal difficultly for endgame. Primals during story should be easy. hard mode should rewards commiserate to it's difficulty and then extreme should have advanced rewards. This also gives multiple levels of endgame difficulty for various players.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

You said that if "those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear" but the alternative (the raid finder option, which is what is being asked for in this thread) is that the people who are farming will queue and the newbies still won't benefit at all, because they can't queue with them. Unless you mean that newbies will be able to use the duty finder to queue with other newbies who also don't have clears, but I don't know why that would improve their chances either.

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They have a chance to get queued together with people who want to learn/help in the duty incomplete queue. Of course there will be much less people who are helping new players to clear the fight, compared to people who just want to farm the fight. As I've said multiple times, sometimes helping others learn the fight means not clearing the fight itself, which means you earn nothing from spending 60-90 minutes with them, other than the pleasure of helping others and helping the playerbase get better as a whole (which admittedly, doesn't help much to get your bird mount or weapons/tokens/whatever).

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Originally Posted by Talraen

This thread is about an option to prevent people without a clear from queuing with people who don't want to queue with them. If those people learn the fight, or have even done it on another character, they still can't queue with them in the raid finder. So how does them learning the fight help them here?

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There's a queue for aim to clear group (duty completion + duty incomplete). You make it sound like it's impossible to clear the fight together with others who haven't clear too. It's hard but doable. I did it in thordan ex, which arguably is the hardest ex trial in heavensward, just by joining practice/clear PF groups. Some of these fights are hard enough that you won't clear even if you're the only person in the group who haven't cleared. If you're late to the content it'll obviously be harder for you to find people to learn and clear the fight together, but that's just how it works in this game. You can't really avoid obsolescence in a vertical progression MMO.

Let's go further and think about the reason why most cleared people only want to go with people who have cleared too. The answer is quite simple, because the content is difficult enough. It's hard to carry people who know little to nothing about the fight. It takes a very long time to completely teach them the fight. You can probably slip into a ravana or bismarck clear party with bonus, and people will just ignore you and clear the fight while pretending you never existed, because they still can. That fight is so easy due to overgearing that you don't see half of the whole fight. It's a different problem if you slip into a12s queue without knowing anything, and if I was going to farm a12s then I'll definitely have problem with it since that pretty much means it's impossible to clear it. It takes hours (even weeks/months) for people to learn a12s before they clear it. When I join a practice or clear party for a12s I do so while keeping in mind that I don't expect a clear, but when I farm of course I expect clears (preferably smooth and easy ones too).

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Please explain how the option to prevent people who haven't cleared content resulted in "a lot of people got a lot of clears." I'm pretty confused by that.

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It was fantastic to go into a fight I had not cleared and know that everyone there was of a like mind who might not understand all the mechanics. After a while you graduate and change your settings to communicate that you are almost ready to clear, then finally you clear and have the choice to move onto clear groups. It's quite valuable in building confidence.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

As to the person who complained about the raid mechanics in primal battles...I'm not sure what the issue here is. It has always been that way.

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Not really. Extreme primals had one or two gimmicks that followed you through the whole fight, usually making it harder to do as you go but never changing the main concept (for example, Leviathan can dash in the middle section in the last phase; Ifrit gets countless Nails; you deal with Ramuh's infatuation together with Rolling Thunder; etc). You learned the gimmick and you went in to clear, not to "practice" (honestly the whole concept of "practicing" in MMORPGs sounds ridiculous to me)

Now in Heavensward extreme primals started having several phases with countless raid mechanics that you had to grind. By "raid mechanics" I mean "stuff that you must know and practice if you want to clear", while said "stuff" changes every phase. So things like adaptation and individual skill are thrown aside for memorization and practice. Sure it's cute to see it work, but I honestly have to wonder how people think that being part of a choreography is fun. It's the same thing that made raiding kind of a chore, but people disliked Melusine so... I guess the majority wins.

I've commented about it on another thread and how this kind of design encourages the behaviour seen in this thread. It doesn't helps that ARR primals were also more rewarding. But I don't expect it to change in Stormblood. Just glad I had my fill in ARR.

Edit: forgot to add, while Titan was also a "choreography", outside of Gaols and tableflips his mechanics were just AoEs so you could react (though if you had high ping you'd have to memorize when Landslides and Weight of Land were used to move out of the way just as he casted them)

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Originally Posted by Feidam

As to the person who complained about the raid mechanics in primal battles...I'm not sure what the issue here is. It has always been that way. The difference was you had hard mode primals which gave you a reward to progress, the. Extremes came along with another reward. Only extremes are giving people rewards now. This also needs to change imo.

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This is because the nature of the duty finder is to make sure all content is being done (so people can get clears). Hard mode primals are in roulette, so they're covered even without a fight-specific reward. Extreme primals aren't in roulette, which is why they added a different incentive with a low drop rate (mounts) so people would keep doing them.

The irony is that mounts exist specifically to keep people doing content so new people can get clears, yet the main content people want to exclude people from is those very farms.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Now in Heavensward extreme primals started having several phases with countless raid mechanics that you had to grind. By "raid mechanics" I mean "stuff that you must know and practice if you want to clear", while said "stuff" changes every phase. So things like adaptation and individual skill are thrown aside for memorization and practice. Sure it's cute to see it work, but I honestly have to wonder how people think that being part of a choreography is fun. It's the same thing that made raiding kind of a chore, but people disliked Melusine so... I guess the majority wins.

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Well, a lot of people like to dance - as in: following a choreography (I mean, its the very origin of the word, right?) - instead of just jumping around the ballroom freely like a little bunny.
While quickly reacting and judging a situation can be a lot of fun too, following a certain pattern and executing it perfectly has a certain... beauty to me - maybe I'm sounding a bit to melodramatic here, but a well structured fight, that allows you to slide from one mechanic into the next one without chaos breaking lose has a certain appeal to it!
...and if I want chaos and reacting to new situations, I do some PvP - which can be more challenging than any EX-primal.

In addition to the whole "HMs need rewards again"-thing... HMs replaced the storymodes pretty much. The only HMs with rewards (beside the rare drop and the TT-card) are Garuda, Titan and Ifrit. The reason for that being: The HM was already the more difficult, challenging version of the storymode (a fight that didnt gave rewards at all!). Since then, we basically lost the storymode and replaced it with the HM-version. The Hardmodes are now the storymodes while the Extreme version has techincally replaced the HM.
I'm not saying that I dont want rewards from HMs (slightly weaker weapons could be nice for example) but I'd like to point out that this more a "naming error" in a sense. Hardmodes arent hardmoes - they're storymodes.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

This is because the nature of the duty finder is to make sure all content is being done (so people can get clears). Hard mode primals are in roulette, so they're covered even without a fight-specific reward. Extreme primals aren't in roulette, which is why they added a different incentive with a low drop rate (mounts) so people would keep doing them.

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I dont actually believe/agree a 100% with this because you forget another reason to give people this incentive: Its in place to keep them playing and give them "something to do". Ypu gotta keep people busy or they'll unsub - so putting this drops in place turns ex-primals into a grind, thats going to make people stick to the game. Its not only to help new people to get their clears, its also to make sure that experienced people have a reason to keep playing after they killed that primal.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

They have a chance to get queued together with people who want to learn/help in the duty incomplete queue. Of course there will be much less people who are helping new players to clear the fight, compared to people who just want to farm the fight. As I've said multiple times, sometimes helping others learn the fight means not clearing the fight itself, which means you earn nothing from spending 60-90 minutes with them, other than the pleasure of helping others and helping the playerbase get better as a whole (which admittedly, doesn't help much to get your bird mount or weapons/tokens/whatever).

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Let me make this explicitly clear: you're right. Having bad players in your group can derail the group. I acknowledge that. Can you acknowledge that removing that risk is not the only effect the duty finder has?

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

There's a queue for aim to clear group (duty completion + duty incomplete). You make it sound like it's impossible to clear the fight together with others who haven't clear too. It's hard but doable. I did it in thordan ex, which arguably is the hardest ex trial in heavensward, just by joining practice/clear PF groups. Some of these fights are hard enough that you won't clear even if you're the only person in the group who haven't cleared. If you're late to the content it'll obviously be harder for you to find people to learn and clear the fight together, but that's just how it works in this game. You can't really avoid obsolescence in a vertical progression MMO.

Let's go further and think about the reason why most cleared people only want to go with people who have cleared too. The answer is quite simple, because the content is difficult enough. It's hard to carry people who know little to nothing about the fight. It takes a very long time to completely teach them the fight. You can probably slip into a ravana or bismarck clear party with bonus, and people will just ignore you and clear the fight while pretending you never existed, because they still can. That fight is so easy due to overgearing that you don't see half of the whole fight. It's a different problem if you slip into a12s queue without knowing anything, and if I was going to farm a12s then I'll definitely have problem with it since that pretty much means it's impossible to clear it. It takes hours (even weeks/months) for people to learn a12s before they clear it. When I join a practice or clear party for a12s I do so while keeping in mind that I don't expect a clear, but when I farm of course I expect clears (preferably smooth and easy ones too).

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I'm not trying to make it sound like it's impossible to win with people who haven't cleared; that's the premise of this request. People want to be able to completely exclude these people because they feel that their presence makes a clear hard or impossible. Yet those same people expect those people to get those clears among only themselves. Or maybe they don't expect them to get clears at all? I'm not sure, because most of said people have barely acknowledged that people who haven't cleared the content even exist, except insofar as they not be allowed to queue with them.

Like I've said a few times, I completely understand why you'd want to have every clear be smooth and easy, and only ever get grouped with people who are well-geared and know the content. I want that too! While I'm perfectly willing to help people with random dungeon mechanics and whatnot, obviously I'd prefer if every run was done in 15 minutes with no fuss. However, I realize that there are implications of a system that allows that, and those implications can be dangerous. I'm not even entirely sure the downside for new players outweighs the upside for farming, but I'd like to at least acknowledge that there is a downside for new players. The mental gymnastics in this thread justifying that no, this is actually better for new players, are interesting to watch, but they don't do much to convince me.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I dont actually believe/agree a 100% with this because you forget another reason to give people this incentive: Its in place to keep them playing and give them "something to do". Ypu gotta keep people busy or they'll unsub - so putting this drops in place turns ex-primals into a grind, thats going to make people stick to the game. Its not only to help new people to get their clears, its also to make sure that experienced people have a reason to keep playing after they killed that primal.

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Giving people something to do is important, but it's a side benefit here. Everything about the duty finder is there for only one reason: to make sure every piece of content is queuable. Look at the introduction of roulettes, how relic and anima worked, Wondrous Tails, etc. Look at the new player bonus. Everything is about keeping content relevant. That is the primary goal. Keeping players subscribed is important, but so is growth, and the game can't grow if new players can't complete old content. (That said, new players don't have to do Extreme primals so I don't know how important it is that they stay relevant. But I have no doubt that's why the mounts were implemented.)

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Let me make this explicitly clear: you're right. Having bad players in your group can derail the group. I acknowledge that. Can you acknowledge that removing that risk is not the only effect the duty finder has?

However, I realize that there are implications of a system that allows that, and those implications can be dangerous. I'm not even entirely sure the downside for new players outweighs the upside for farming, but I'd like to at least acknowledge that there is a downside for new players.

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For contents below certain level of difficulty yeah maybe new players can slip in without knowing anything and get carried through it and get an easy clear, you can consider that a good thing I guess? The problem is that a lot of ex/savage contents, despite being obsolete, don't allow such thing. Even fights outgeared by 30-70 ilv can be impossible to clear if certain players don't know how to execute the mechanics properly. I guess in most cases they're more forgiving to dps not knowing mechanics.

Look at a6s-a8s DF queues, or maybe a4s, do they even pop? Even if they do, will you have any reasonable chance to clear it? If you're able to filter based on clear status maybe many if not all of previous savage floors will be farmable for glamour/mount/achievements.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

The mental gymnastics in this thread justifying that no, this is actually better for new players, are interesting to watch, but they don't do much to convince me.

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Well I'm not going to argue for/against that, as I've said there are contents where you can know nothing and expect to get carried after all. Though personally I think the harm of not having clear filter in difficult contents is a bigger problem, since that'll pretty much make the single queue unusable except for early phase practice.

The JP data center community worked around it by agreeing that you should join DF queues when you're ready to clear (watched guides, practiced, whatever), so at least the DF is usable despite not having clear filter. On the other hand in NA/EU data centers DF queues for hard contents are pretty much only usable for first phase practice, which pretty much means you won't have any reasonable chance to clear. I guess it's subjective but I'd prefer the former, even if I have to exclude newer players or be excluded in contents I'm behind.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Keeping players subscribed is important, but so is growth, and the game can't grow if new players can't complete old content. (That said, new players don't have to do Extreme primals so I don't know how important it is that they stay relevant. But I have no doubt that's why the mounts were implemented.)

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Now this is something I don't really agree. In a vertical progression MMO like this you don't have to complete past contents to be able to reach current end game. I started in 3.0, I never had to look back at coil to learn how to play my job at lv 50 to be good at lv 60. I have friends who started raiding at 3.2/3.4, they didn't have to clear gordias/midas savage before starting in midas/creator savage. Gear dropped in those old contents are obsolete for current raids/trials, and it's not like the raid difficulty curve starts low at gordias and grows higher throughout midas and creator. Heck it's the other way around, gordias and midas are much harder than creator savage.

I completely agree that the game needs to encourage player growth, but I don't think helping them slip into old content queues and get carried will help them grow. I personally think this game needs to give some sort of feedback on new players' performance level and a smoother difficulty curve, starting from easier contents like dungeons, normal trials and raids, 24 man raids to harder contents like ex trials and savage raids. Right now the gap between the difficulty of dungeons, normal trials/raids and ex/savage is too big. People may not even know how "bad" they are until they step into ex/savage and fail miserably.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Now this is something I don't really agree. In a vertical progression MMO like this you don't have to complete past contents to be able to reach current end game. I started in 3.0, I never had to look back at coil to learn how to play my job at lv 50 to be good at lv 60. I have friends who started raiding at 3.2/3.4, they didn't have to clear gordias/midas savage before starting in midas/creator savage. Gear dropped in those old contents are obsolete for current raids/trials, and it's not like the raid difficulty curve starts low at gordias and grows higher throughout midas and creator. Heck it's the other way around, gordias and midas are much harder than creator savage.

I completely agree that the game needs to encourage player growth, but I don't think helping them slip into old content queues and get carried will help them grow. I personally think this game needs to give some sort of feedback on new players' performance level and a smoother difficulty curve, starting from easier contents like dungeons, normal trials and raids, 24 man raids to harder contents like ex trials and savage raids. Right now the gap between the difficulty of dungeons, normal trials/raids and ex/savage is too big. People may not even know how "bad" they are until they step into ex/savage and fail miserably.

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No, you don't have to clear coil for any mechanical reason, but coil in particular has a very good story, and a new player might want to experience that. Extreme primals are generally a tougher argument to make, since the only practical benefit are the mounts and possibly weapons for glamour purposes, but some people might just want to complete them for the sake of doing so. Square Enix doesn't want to have content that is literally impossible for a new player to ever clear. No one wants this to become FFXI where no one had any incentive to do content with you so if you were late to the party you were basically screwed. (Actually scratch that, I think a lot of people here want exactly that, but I don't!)

I actually don't think the difficulty gap is as extreme as you present it, at least not for primals. Certainly there are terrible players that can barely clear a basic dungeon, and should be nowhere near extremes. But most of the "skill" involved in completing the hardest content is just learning the fight. Of course someone who's never done the fight is going to be worse at it, but given teaching, you can get most decent players through an extreme. (I've never actually done savage or original coil pre-echo, so I'm not going to presume to comment on how hard they actually are.) That's not a skill gap, it's an experience gap; indeed, the fact that it's an experience gap is why an "I've already cleared this content" button is useful. There are plenty of people without clears who are much better players than some people who've been carried to a clear.

More important than any of that, though, is that my point is not that new players should be able to "slip into old content queues and get carried." It's that if you give players the option to exclude new players, they will take that option, thus reducing the pool of players available to help them get those important first clears. You need to look at this problem deeper than just on the surface.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

More important than any of that, though, is that my point is not that new players should be able to "slip into old content queues and get carried." It's that if you give players the option to exclude new players, they will take that option, thus reducing the pool of players available to help them get those important first clears. You need to look at this problem deeper than just on the surface.

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First off I'd like to point out that there are certain achievements in this game, mostly PvP related that are very difficult to achieve now because the content you get them from is dead. I am, ofc, talking about the wins in old level 50 frontline content - no one does that anymore, because people have moved on to the level 60 versions. And even there you can notice how a new version often kills the others. Now, the achievments could be easly adjusted to let every frontline-win count for example instead of making it extremly difficult to ever get them (some have tied gear, monuts and titles to them); infact its probably way more difficult to get those wins than to get any of your EX-primal clears.
So there is actually something in place thats screwing those who are late to the party.

Now, to the point I quoted here... I'll repeat again: This is a game, that everyone plays for their enjoyment. It should give us the option to actually make sure we can enjoy the content we want to do. And if enjoying it means not teaching it right now, the game should give me the option for that. I dont take that option because I dislike new players - I take this option because I want to enjoy the game I'm playing. By "forcing" me into a queue with people that simply make my game less enjoyable (without that being their fault, really) you turn this game into stressful, frustrating "work" for me. My hobby shouldnt make me do things I dont want to do. I might sound very selfish right now, and even more selfish than I am or would like to sound, but you really have to understand that asking people to do something they dont want to do (if they want to teach people, they'll queue for that option) is bad - specially when its happening in a game.

Your fix for people not wanting to teach/help new randoms in DF is simply forcing them to do so by not allowing them to avoid an experience they dont want to make. Thats really not a good solution - specially not when it involves taking away the option they previously had to make sure they could play the game the way they wanted.
A new players person experience and enjoyment of the game is NOT more important than that of a person who has been here since 1.0. Their first clear is not more important than my 99th that will give me the token to get my bird - their first clear is ofc very important to them, as is the token very important to me.
Both sides need to be emphatic (...okay, that word seems wrong, if someone can suggest a better one, I would be thankful - not native, sorry >.<) here and have an understanding for the wishes of the other side. You are basically saying to everyone who has cleared the fight yet "Well, yeah, to bad that you still want drops from here and be rewarded for your knowledge of the fight now - get back to square one, please, because its more important that stranger XY learns the fight too than that you get what you want now"
You are currently looking at the problem only from the side of the new person, because you decided that they are more important and that can not and should not be the case.

I totally see the problem of people not queueing for "learning" - but the solution for that problem is not to take that away from them but instead give them a better reason NOT to do that.
Besides... we really need to get rid of the idea that you can clear EX-primals in DF. The game is very missleading in my opionion when it suggests that you can just go on and queue for them solo. I dare to say that it is impossible for a party of 8 random people to get a clear of any EX-primals when they all go in blind - those fights take more than 60 minutes to be understood and learned. By just letting you queue for them like you're used to from dungeons (all CAN easly be cleared within thegiven timeframe of 90 minutes, even with everyone going in blind) the game is giving you false hope and a wrong idea of this content.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

No, you don't have to clear coil for any mechanical reason, but coil in particular has a very good story, and a new player might want to experience that. Extreme primals are generally a tougher argument to make, since the only practical benefit are the mounts and possibly weapons for glamour purposes, but some people might just want to complete them for the sake of doing so.

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I did coil undersized, I meant that doing coil the proper way isn't necessary to progress in current contents. I think it's important to draw the line somewhere, some contents are just way too hard to teach/carry people through it, which is why queues for some contents are completely dead. For easy contents like 24 man raids or normal trials/raids people won't mind teaching/carrying new players.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I actually don't think the difficulty gap is as extreme as you present it, at least not for primals. Certainly there are terrible players that can barely clear a basic dungeon, and should be nowhere near extremes. But most of the "skill" involved in completing the hardest content is just learning the fight. Of course someone who's never done the fight is going to be worse at it, but given teaching, you can get most decent players through an extreme. (I've never actually done savage or original coil pre-echo, so I'm not going to presume to comment on how hard they actually are.) That's not a skill gap, it's an experience gap; indeed, the fact that it's an experience gap is why an "I've already cleared this content" button is useful. There are plenty of people without clears who are much better players than some people who've been carried to a clear.

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The gap is much lessened since 3.4 since the devs decided to bring the roof much lower, so instead of filling the gap(s) they just brought all the contents closer by lowering the difficulties of the latest ex trials and savage raids. I'm not going to argue whether that was a good or bad decision, that's for a completely different thread.

The main problem with some of the previous fights is that there are some mechanics that must be executed perfectly by all 8 people in the group, or otherwise you'll wipe. From all of them a8s is definitely the one most guilty of this. There are many mechanics that'll bring down half or more of the party if one person messes up, and in some parts of the fight, someone's death will give a damage up buff on the boss (stackable), making the final phase unmanageable. Even the video guides for this fight were over half an hour long. Of course that's a very extreme case, compared to some of the easier floors like a1s, a5s, a9s, a10s, but such mechanics are also seen in other savage floors and even some ex trials have really punishing mechanics (thordan last few phases, though overgearing allowed us to kill him before those parts, then sephirot's last phase with buffs, towers and knockbacks).

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Originally Posted by Talraen

More important than any of that, though, is that my point is not that new players should be able to "slip into old content queues and get carried." It's that if you give players the option to exclude new players, they will take that option, thus reducing the pool of players available to help them get those important first clears. You need to look at this problem deeper than just on the surface.

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You may think that, but the only players who benefit from the lack of clear filter are those who "slip into old content queues and get carried," either with or without their knowledge (new players may now know how difficult the thing they're queuing for is). Those who want to actually learn the hard fights won't be able to do it. The queues will be dead since for those hard fights it's impossible to clear while teaching new players. In that case the only people who queue for those fights are those who want to practice early parts, and those who have cleared and want to help, which is exactly what the RF non-cleared queues are right now. Someone who's intending to farm, not teach newbies most likely won't suddenly change their mind and spend 90 minutes wiping to teach the newbies. Even in JP servers if you slip to difficult old contents via DF without knowing anything, they'll give you one or two pulls and then either kick you out or disband, or even instantly leave.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Even if certain mechanics are more an individual effort there were mechanics way before Seph Ex that required the whole party to pay attention - and if one person messed up, it could mean a wipe.

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Ill give you some of those trials with maybe ramuh being the most team focused , but the others had very few one mistake everythings over mechanics. I have seen lots of people kill spiny but its still not as bad as the towers in sep, nor the stacks in sophia and def not soar. But I get both sides I understand where people who farm dont want others in their party I totally get it because some people can perfectly do these trails so with such tight mechanics sometimes you cant afford to have someone in your group who makes a mistake. But at this point the content is basicly two months from going unsync and everyone will deem the content is dead so I see no reason why at this point its not ok with op for them to be in df.

Let people who want to get their clears before unsync have them, with the ability to buy birds with totems it will be far more easy to get the birds in hw as opposed to the still rng base horses in Arr primals. So the op really doesnt have an argument there I think a two month window last chance for sync clears is pretty fair. But to the others complaining here I have to say Vidu you were right people join learning groups very fast Ive seen it with almost everyone of mine. The thing I worry about is closing that gap how do you go from learning, to farming I dont know that answer and settle with my clear alone, but I think think thats the bigger question. Because most people will join a learning party from what Ive seen , I just wish it was a way to make it more anonymous I think thats another thing that people like about df , who wants to plaster their name on their whole data center every time they wana do some content.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I don't see what the problem is here. People who can farm trials don't want to play with people who haven't cleared the trial. I think that's fair - it'd mean potentially wasting seven other people's time because one person has questionable skill or knowledge of the fight in question.

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Long-term, I would like to see a merge of the RF functionality into DF so that everything is in one place. There are so many people wondering how to even queue for the things that used to be in the RF because they don't know it exists.

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Thank you, that's what I've been trying to express here. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about social constructs or conventions. I don't care that farmers want to farm, and I'm not shaking a "shame on you" finger at anybody. None of that is relevant to anything I've said here.


What I am interested in is interfaces.

The Raid Finder is (1) a Duty Finder (2) with a "no new people" option. This is exactly what it is. The different phase settings for "have not completed yet" are not enforced, and so the only option that offers any guarantees is the "no new people" option.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

party finder and premades are completely irrelevant at this point... the raid finder exists to help indiviuals not premade parties find players that fit there skills and abilities....

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And yet, whenever someone starts a "put EX back in RF" thread, there are people who want this specifically so that they can use the "no new people" button when they queue with their premade farm party, to ensure that no new people can sneak in.


Any features of the raid finder that were novel or necessary at the time of its implementation have since been introduced in the form of a data center -wide party finder. The only feature that isn't available in the party finder is an enforced "no new people" option.


So, rather than having two entry interfaces -- a duty finder and a duty finder MkII with a "no new people" option -- and a party finder for forming premade parties, we should just consolidate all duty entrances into the duty finder. Then give the premade parties (a) the ability to self-enforce a "no new people" option by giving them a bonus indicator in party finder and/or (b) the option to have Party Finder enforce a "no new people" option for them.


How people want to spend their time is not in question. But we don't need three interfaces that do the work of two. Just remove the raid finder and move its "no new people" function to one of the other interfaces.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You guys make it sound as if people who want to farm content are such monsters because they dont want to hold every newbies hand

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Because people think that everyone who hasn't cleared something yet is looking for a carry. That is simply not true. Some people just want to get up to bat. Raid finder wasn't working because queues never popped because once people get a clear, they choose the duty complete option. People can't learn if they can't even get a group of 8 to enter with. Duty finder gives people a bigger pool of players. If playing with mere mortals is unacceptable, then don't use DF.

People joining the wrong group for the goals is something that goes both ways. Players that don't have a clue what they are doing shouldn't be joining farm parties. Players that join a learning party shouldn't expect perfection. I've seen too many learning parties fall apart because someone rages over a wipe in a learning party.

I dont think it should go back as people that looking to clear arent able to get in at all as most people dont do uncomplete anymore, adding it to duty finder helps everyone to have chance to clear and people that are cleared can help them clear as well

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Originally Posted by KingXRay

I dont think it should go back as people that looking to clear arent able to get in at all as most people dont do uncomplete anymore, adding it to duty finder helps everyone to have chance to clear and people that are cleared can help them clear as well

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People can help other people to clear in RF aswell. The difference with DF now is that they have to help, even if they dont want to - and that is bad for both sides.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Because people think that everyone who hasn't cleared something yet is looking for a carry. That is simply not true. Some people just want to get up to bat. Raid finder wasn't working because queues never popped because once people get a clear, they choose the duty complete option. People can't learn if they can't even get a group of 8 to enter with. Duty finder gives people a bigger pool of players. If playing with mere mortals is unacceptable, then don't use DF.

People joining the wrong group for the goals is something that goes both ways. Players that don't have a clue what they are doing shouldn't be joining farm parties. Players that join a learning party shouldn't expect perfection. I've seen too many learning parties fall apart because someone rages over a wipe in a learning party.

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Playing with mere mortals is totally acceptable, since we all are that :P Dont try to make this sound as if people who got the clear and want to farm now are all so high and mighty that they dont want to be associated with "peastens" anymore. If DF is only working because it forces people who want to farm into learning groups, than thats broken. If people can only get experience or even kills in DF because people who'd rather not be there but had to swallow that bitter pill, were but into that group, thats not right.
Why are you also so willingly to screw over the experienced people and make the easy matchmaking tool the game gave us, useless for them? Because that is what happend right now: DF is useless for everyone who'd like to farm primals. Its probably great to the see the first two minutes of a fight but thats about it (depending on the fight, ofc). And yet you think its okay to ask of experienced people to throw themself into those first two minutes over and over again because maybe one day, there will be a party who can get the clear?
You're saying DF should be for everyone - when right now its NOT, because it is not useful for those who want quick clears anymore. You're saying that you shouldnt expect that in DF - but RF allowed us to do excatly that!

Sure, farm parties are more useful most often (specially when you do solo-tank or solo-heal strats like on Zurvan), but telling everyone to just make a farm party in PF and not have an option to check "cleared" in DF/RF (I really dont care about the menu it is in...), because you're hoping for those few who dont want to join farm parties right now to hop into DF and get a bunch of strangers to minute five of a fight, is just not... right.

Its a game - it should allow us to have fun! If fun to you means: wiping in phase one of any given EX-primal: Hooray, grats, you can do that by going into DF! If fun means however to clear that fight in less than 30 minutes you are screwed now.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

So, rather than having two entry interfaces -- a duty finder and a duty finder MkII with a "no new people" option -- and a party finder for forming premade parties, we should just consolidate all duty entrances into the duty finder. Then give the premade parties (a) the ability to self-enforce a "no new people" option by giving them a bonus indicator in party finder and/or (b) the option to have Party Finder enforce a "no new people" option for them.


How people want to spend their time is not in question. But we don't need three interfaces that do the work of two. Just remove the raid finder and move its "no new people" function to one of the other interfaces.

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What about people in NON PREMADE parties....

with the raid finder people could queue solo. they could queue as a part group 2-3 people if they wanted to or a full group.....? are you going to give players not in full parties the same options in duty finder that they have in the raid finder..

could be pretty bad if you did that to the duty finder cos might find a lot of people checking that option even for 24 man raids and daily roulettes....

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Originally Posted by Dzian

could be pretty bad if you did that to the duty finder cos might find a lot of people checking that option even for 24 man raids and daily roulettes....

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They could just not make it an option for anything except Savage and EX-primals. Its really about the function, not the interface.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

What about people in NON PREMADE parties....

with the raid finder people could queue solo. they could queue as a part group 2-3 people if they wanted to or a full group.....? are you going to give players not in full parties the same options in duty finder that they have in the raid finder..

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If you want to be picky about the people you play with, there's already an interface for that. It's the party finder. That people want to queue as an incomplete party is unimportant, because no matter what interface we use, it comes down to waiting for the party to fill. Functionally, there is no difference between waiting for a randomly matched party to fill and waiting for a party finder party to fill. It's all cross-world at this point, and using the party finder gives you the added benefit of deciding before the duty starts if you don't like any of the people in your party so you can drop party without whining about a 30 minute penalty. So "I want to be picky about the people I play with, but I don't want to form a full party" isn't a serious argument.

Whether or not people want to use the party finder in its present form is irrelevant. If it included the cleared-only option, there would be no compelling reason to use the raid finder anymore which would lead to more interest in using the party finder.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

could be pretty bad if you did that to the duty finder cos might find a lot of people checking that option even for 24 man raids and daily roulettes....

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This doesn't even apply to anything I said, because everything I've said about DF functionality has been about self-enforcement in a pre-made party, not applicable to roulettes or alliance raids.