Sentinal is a thorn in our sides

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

regarding the enmity effect of the "new sentinel" it doesn't matter how much enmity t generates the tank will still have more given he also used the skill. The tank probably used the skill 10 times by hellfire. Ive seen people argue this so much and it doesn't make sense. I can go a whole fight with others being red and not accomplice them and still not lose hate.

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You do realize all the other abilities are changing too right? do you know how much enmity they will generate when compared to the "new sentinel"? I'll answer for you, you don't. Based on that alone, your experience so far based on the current abilities carries no weight in this discussion.

The only thing that we can safely assume is that this "new sentinel" will generate more hate than the abilities that do not list enmity generation in their description. Based on that alone, I will try something else before resorting to the "new sentinel" as a mage for defense.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You do realize all the other abilities are changing too right? do you know how much enmity they will generate when compared to the "new sentinel"? I'll answer for you, you don't. Based on that alone, your experience so far based on the current abilities carries no weight in this discussion.

The only thing that we can safely assume is that this "new sentinel" will generate more hate than the abilities that do not list enmity generation in their description. Based on that alone, I will try something else before resorting to the "new sentinel" as a mage for defense.

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It doesn't matter if it's new or old. Cross classing is set at half potency. So, yeah. It's always going to be less for everyone else and more for the tank. Even with a simple mind that will tell you that if everyone uses it at the same time it would balance out and be in the tank's favor. It doesn't matter if one mage pops it before the tank. They will be less than a second apart in popping it together during hellfire.

This does not screw up positioning as he's already performing a TP move in the center ring and will need to be positioned after it.

Also, I understand what you're debating, but you don't know anything as much as the people you're debating against. It's quite useless.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Also since when did hard = leveling up all jobs?

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I think it is more like leveling up all classes = easy and leveling only 1 class = hard

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You do realize all the other abilities are changing too right? do you know how much enmity they will generate when compared to the "new sentinel"? I'll answer for you, you don't. Based on that alone, your experience so far based on the current abilities carries no weight in this discussion.

The only thing that we can safely assume is that this "new sentinel" will generate more hate than the abilities that do not list enmity generation in their description. Based on that alone, I will try something else before resorting to the "new sentinel" as a mage for defense.

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you cant assume that at all, how do you know its not the new rampart.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

It doesn't matter if it's new or old. Cross classing is set at half potency. So, yeah. It's always going to be less for everyone else and more for the tank. Even with a simple mind that will tell you that if everyone uses it at the same time it would balance out and be in the tank's favor. It doesn't matter if one mage pops it before the tank. They will be less than a second apart in popping it together during hellfire.

This does not screw up positioning as he's already performing a TP move in the center ring and will need to be positioned after it.

Also, I understand what you're debating, but you don't know anything as much as the people you're debating against. It's quite useless.

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First, screw you for the statement in bold, it's uncalled for. I've been playing this game since early beta, I know what the hell I'm talking about.

Secondly, you can operate on the assumption that the balance between classes and actions are the same. I'm going to operate on the assumption that SE has changed the class balance as they say they have and try a diff strategy first.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

you cant assume that at all, how do you know its not the new rampart.

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semantics, what it's called has no bearing on the results.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

semantics, what it's called has no bearing on the results.

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the point is the only thing that is fact is that everyone can use it, they still wont take hate from tank if the tank already had hate. 2+2=4 and 10+10=20, you cant change the ways numbers add up.

i do realize that you are only saying that you are gonna try something else first cause you wanna be innovative and original, and that fine but you cant argue facts.

I was reading this thread at work but couldn't post but Molly, you are sorta right and sorta wrong.

In patches 1.17 and before the buff description when Sentinel was used read: "Temporarily reducing damage and increasing emnity from actions."

In 1.18 when Emnity algorithms were adjusted they changed the buff description to: "Temporarily reducing damage."

I can't believe no one else mentioned that yet, or just no one ever hovered above the buffs to read them? Sentinel wasn't the only one with a buff description that was off a bit from its tool tip.


But in any case GLA Ablity 1 is nearly the same description as Sentinel's buff description was Pre-1.18. As many people have said the name doesn't matter, the tool tip doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if it provides 40-60% damage cut to do the same thing. The +Emnity (on actions done during sentinel) existed before and it wasn't a problem and with Sentinel only lasting 7-10 seconds subbed you can't even do many during it so it won't be a very big issue regaining the emnity factor it previously lost.

Anyways, its pointless to debate it now. The patch is a week away so we can just wait until then and they point fingers at who's wrong if people feel like it.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

I was reading this thread at work but couldn't post but Molly, you are sorta right and sorta wrong.

In patches 1.17 and before the buff description when Sentinel was used read: "Temporarily reducing damage and increasing emnity from actions."

In 1.18 when Emnity algorithms were adjusted they changed the buff description to: "Temporarily reducing damage."

I can't believe no one else mentioned that yet, or just no one ever hovered above the buffs to read them? Sentinel wasn't the only one with a buff description that was off a bit from its tool tip.


But in any case GLA Ablity 1 is nearly the same description as Sentinel's buff description was Pre-1.18. As many people have said the name doesn't matter, the tool tip doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if it provides 40-60% damage cut to do the same thing. The +Emnity (on actions done during sentinel) existed before and it wasn't a problem and with Sentinel only lasting 7-10 seconds subbed you can't even do many during it so it won't be a very big issue regaining the emnity factor it previously lost.

Anyways, its pointless to debate it now. The patch is a week away so we can just wait until then and they point fingers at who's wrong if people feel like it.

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we are not discussing sentinel, rather the new ability which may or may not be sentinel-esk in1.20

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

First, screw you for the statement in bold, it's uncalled for. I've been playing this game since early beta, I know what the hell I'm talking about.

Secondly, you can operate on the assumption that the balance between classes and actions are the same. I'm going to operate on the assumption that SE has changed the class balance as they say they have and try a diff strategy first.

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It doesn't matter how long you've been playing. It's still true. I don't care how long you've been playing either. I know others who have been playing since early beta with me too, but still don't know how attributes loosely work and others who have joined much later who are wonderfully adept to the mechanics. How long you've been playing is totally irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

I was reading this thread at work but couldn't post but Molly, you are sorta right and sorta wrong.

In patches 1.17 and before the buff description when Sentinel was used read: "Temporarily reducing damage and increasing emnity from actions."

In 1.18 when Emnity algorithms were adjusted they changed the buff description to: "Temporarily reducing damage."

I can't believe no one else mentioned that yet, or just no one ever hovered above the buffs to read them? Sentinel wasn't the only one with a buff description that was off a bit from its tool tip.


But in any case GLA Ablity 1 is nearly the same description as Sentinel's buff description was Pre-1.18. As many people have said the name doesn't matter, the tool tip doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if it provides 40-60% damage cut to do the same thing. The +Emnity (on actions done during sentinel) existed before and it wasn't a problem and with Sentinel only lasting 7-10 seconds subbed you can't even do many during it so it won't be a very big issue regaining the emnity factor it previously lost.

Anyways, its pointless to debate it now. The patch is a week away so we can just wait until then and they point fingers at who's wrong if people feel like it.

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I don't disagree with anything you said, but have something to add; In a perfect Ifrit run, with more enmity generation on the sentinel like action, you likely won't notice a difference. But we all know that most runs aren't perfect, and that is where you are going to see a difference I believe. When it's going to be a problem is that time when you (as a mage) just popped the new ability and lets say a couple DDs screwed up and their timing was off, so you have to toss a curaga within the extra enmity window.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

do you know what the word average means?

sorry to be an ass, but you are making some pretty illogical arguments. We are comparing the new ability to sentinel not to speed surge.

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oh so its ok for you to do it but when someone else does it then it isn't ok?

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Originally Posted by Krausus

oh so its ok for you to do it but when someone else does it then it isn't ok?

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I don't follow

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I don't follow

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arguing small points that make no difference to the argument.

Also I never meant to come off as hostile to the argument I hope you didn't take it that way, I have no issues with you personally, I just think your argument was moot to the point just as me talking about LNC skills and enmity. I think you probably get that now and I do understand your concerns for mages but it isn't a concern to me because it will more then likely not effect my Ifrit groups. I think it mostly stems from some people hate the fact that Sentinel makes it easier on a group especially those that do not wish to take the time to get the ability in order to be less of a burden on the rest of the group. But flat out saying Sentinel is going away without any evidence of such is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

But flat out saying Sentinel is going away without any evidence of such is wrong.

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Then lets say that sentinel as we know it now is going away and just call it a day. Maybe the new ability is the same as sentinel before 1.17 or whatever, but it's not going to be the same as it is now if it exists at all.

sigh.........

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Then lets say that sentinel as we know it now is going away and just call it a day. Maybe the new ability is the same as sentinel before 1.17 or whatever, but it's not going to be the same as it is now if it exists at all.

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How do you know this?

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Originally Posted by ninesunz

How do you know this?

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I explained that here, a couple pages back. The descriptions are not the same. Currently (as another poster pointed out) sentinel generates an average amount of enmity when compared to other actions, after the patch, the ability that comes closest (by its description) generates more than average enmity.

hmmm i started something didnt I lol. It was just a small frustration rant nothing more, I swear lol

I got my last 6 lvls Im good, but since I dont like gld I know Ifrit will give me nothing but swords and nothing for any of my actual 50 jobs or jobs I am currently taking to 50 ^^ Moogles Law

Can't we just agree that the new skill in 1.20 is basically Sentinel + Cadence combined into a new skill?

Because that's what's happening, basically. (Changes to the damage reduction and enmity generation notwithstanding)

No, because to imply Sentinel + anything means your making the assumption of having a massive damage mitigation ability. Which might not be the case, the SAFEST approach would be for everyone to agree that these new abilities are COMPLETELY NEW, and like nothing we've seen thus far (since by their own definitions, they are). And that we'll just have to wait until 1.20 (12/14/11) to figure out what is what.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

No, because to imply Sentinel + anything means your making the assumption of having a massive damage mitigation ability. Which might not be the case, the SAFEST approach would be for everyone to agree that these new abilities are COMPLETELY NEW, and like nothing we've seen thus far (since by their own definitions, they are). And that we'll just have to wait until 1.20 (12/14/11) to figure out what is what.

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Holy crap, somebody gets it! Fact of the matter is everything is changing ability wise. We may as well toss that emnity chart out because most likely it won't be right. Since the point of this patch is to change the balance between classes, right now we must assume that's what will happen and therefore create new strategies.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Can't we just agree that the new skill in 1.20 is basically Sentinel + Cadence combined into a new skill?

Because that's what's happening, basically. (Changes to the damage reduction and enmity generation notwithstanding)

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yep, sounds about right. unlike cadence there is a active timer on it so you could get a couple ws outta it instead of one

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

yep, sounds about right. unlike cadence there is a active timer on it so you could get a couple ws outta it instead of one

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Yeah, so one could also think of it as a Sentinel + Warmonger - the AOE Taunt effect.

It's still called "Sentinel", according to the Mog fight video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rPVbrnIDiI

Um..I take it you must read Japanese? Also who is to say they are using updated ability list? Its also says in the footer that this is all WIP (basically), could always be temp names.

Also just looked at the big move (deals ~2500 dmg) and none of the players had a massive damage reduction, they all took roughly the same 2500 damage give or take a bit. So while it might be Sentinel its not the same, either that or they are just trying to prove to the player base you don't need the ability to have fun, lol.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Um..I take it you must read Japanese?

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Um..Yes?

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Its also says in the footer that this is all WIP (basically), could always be temp names.

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Could be temp names. Or not. All I said was that according to the video, it's still called "Sentinel".

The AOE defense up move is also called "Rampart".

/smiles guess what

Seriously. I can't believe there was so much controversy over something as trivial as this.

new patch notes up :)

Sentinal is obtainable at level 22!

I'll opt for rampart with it's area affect over sentinel. Although the tank should still be using sentinel. We'll see how everything works in reality in the next couple days, though.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I'll opt for rampart with it's area affect over sentinel. Although the tank should still be using sentinel. We'll see how everything works in reality in the next couple days, though.

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You don't get the AOE if you're not Gladiator. It's a Trait bonus.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You don't get the AOE if you're not Gladiator. It's a Trait bonus.

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I know. What I mean is the GLA will pop rampart giving the effect to the other classes.

Kind of curious what the damage reduction will be on Sentinel post patch. If people can find a spot for it on their action bar they'll still set it if it's worthwhile enough. At least it's obtained at a fairly low level now.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Kind of curious what the damage reduction will be on Sentinel post patch. If people can find a spot for it on their action bar they'll still set it if it's worthwhile enough. At least it's obtained at a fairly low level now.

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Me too. My guess is that since it's now a level 22 skill, the cross-class version probably got a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Kind of curious what the damage reduction will be on Sentinel post patch. If people can find a spot for it on their action bar they'll still set it if it's worthwhile enough. At least it's obtained at a fairly low level now.

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I'm hoping at most it will be base 10-15% and with the trait a GLA will hit 30-35%... I don't think it should be the same as it is now unless you are a GLA with the trait or at least make it cap at 50% as a GLA with the trait so that would be a 30% base with no trait...

Oh well things to think about and I'll probably still not lvl GLA and get it... because really I don't see a need to.

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Me too. My guess is that since it's now a level 22 skill, the cross-class version probably got a nerf.

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Well, the cross-class bit doesn't matter as much since abilities scale with your current class level (I think Sentinel might be one of those ones that is a fixed amount of damage reduction regardless), but being that Gladiator gets a trait to make it 25% more potent, I don't think it'll be anymore than 25% reduction without the trait. If Hellfire does around 2500 damage with a spike down and no Sentinel, the question to ask is the 650 damage it prevents really worth it over some other ability?

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Well, the cross-class bit doesn't matter as much since abilities scale with your current class level (I think Sentinel might be one of those ones that is a fixed amount of damage reduction regardless), but being that Gladiator gets a trait to make it 25% more potent, I don't think it'll be anymore than 25% reduction without the trait. If Hellfire does around 2500 damage with a spike down and no Sentinel, the question to ask is the 650 damage it prevents really worth it over some other ability?

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Obviously this is speculation, but a combination of abilities might be the way to go now instead. Also, I wonder if the effect of decoy has been increased...

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Obviously this is speculation, but a combination of abilities might be the way to go now instead. Also, I wonder if the effect of decoy has been increased...

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2 Action Decoy Consumes MP to evade a single ranged or magic attack. Recast Time: 90sec. / Duration: 60sec.

Looking at this... 1 ranged or magic attack misses you if it would hit during the 60sec duration...

the cat is bemused =-.-=

maybe a combination of rampart cast by tank and sentinel.