Got kicked from The Aetherochemical Research Facility by mentor

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Originally Posted by Nirokun

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I can see where you're coming from but in the end I think kindness and understanding brings out the best in people. I also think that if you use the DF to go into dungeons you accept potentially having a slower run and running into new or less capable players. After all, that's why we get extra rewards, right? If there is a completely new player to the duty, especially a MSQ one, don't be a douche. Show how 'superior' your play is by maximising the situation while adjusting to accomodate and teach the new player in a kind and understanding way. Share your experience, try to make the new player feel comfortable so that later in their playtime they'll be a better AND friendlier player.

Anyway, the fast play you probably refer to as superior isn't being villainized here - efficiency is actually very good. It's the unexceptance from a mentor such as in the OP's situation which is. A mentor's job is literally stated in-game to be, when you click on accept for the mentor status, to accommodate to new players in proper etiquette. This accommodation in the shape of growing efficient and learning takes time, for some more than others. Denying said learning moments by kicking isn't helping at all. Kicking people instead of helping them, and you'll find people generally respond a LOT better to kindness and understanding, will in the long run contribute to a lower skillset of the community for we deny new people proper learning. For those of you wondering (and complaining) why the game continues to get easier: it's because it needs to be... and perhaps now we know why. Take time to properly teach your fellow player if you see them struggle instead of excluding, denying, bad mouthing and avoiding them. Not doing so is the thing that gets villainized here, because this behaviour is detrimental to our community, game and enjoyment in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

But there are d-bags everywhere. Crowned and uncrowned.

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The funny thing is the healer wouldn't have had any time to dps in this run, being that they'd have to spam heals at the DDs to keep them alive lol.

Had a run in Sohm Al leveling my DRG where the Paladin, in full i260 collects up all the mobs in the first room, then gets confused why he died. 2 DRGs and a new Healer and he thought he could play a leveling dungeon like it was Ex Roulette.
To his credit, he acknowledged that was a dumb move and we got normal sized pulls after that lol.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

The funny thing is the healer wouldn't have had any time to dps in this run, being that they'd have to spam heals at the DDs to keep them alive lol.

Had a run in Sohm Al leveling my DRG where the Paladin, in full i260 collects up all the mobs in the first room, then gets confused why he died. 2 DRGs and a new Healer and he thought he could play a leveling dungeon like it was Ex Roulette.
To his credit, he acknowledged that was a dumb move and we got normal sized pulls after that lol.

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Thing is, a leveling dungeon is pretty much going to take 30-35 minutes no matter how fast you pull things. That's just the way it is... because you're leveling. You don't have all your tools and your gear probably sucks.

In the run I described I did consider pulling multiple packs and dying to prove the point to them. The problem with that is that purposefully pulling more than I know I can handle and wiping the group would have ACTUALLY been my fault. I already hate being wrong about things. Why would I do it on purpose? :confused:

Folks bashed the mentor for not mentoring and instead kicking. So the mentor telling OP to "pull all" isnt mentoring? Get this; Im a new salesman at a car dealership. Never sold cars before. The 5 year sales veteran appointed by my manager to mentor me tells me how to sell but I respond with "Eh, Im more comfortable selling my way instead (despite never having sold cars before. Derp)" I proceed to perform at a minimal level. I get fired. Blaming n cursing everyone on the way out. "I was selling! Just not as fast as the dealership wanted." Blah blah blah. You get the point.

I dont understand how when youre "new" at something and someone who isnt new tells you how to do said thing, you dont try it at least once. Is it because you already know half of the forums will say that mentor is wrong? Is it because its out of your comfort zone? Because you know better despite never having done it before?

Good job SE for opening up HW for the untested bunch to flood 3.0+ ques.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Folks bashed the mentor for not mentoring and instead kicking. So the mentor telling OP to "pull all" isnt mentoring? Get this; Im a new salesman at a car dealership. Never sold cars before. The 5 year sales veteran appointed by my manager to mentor me tells me how to sell but I respond with "Eh, Im more comfortable selling my way instead (despite never having sold cars before. Derp)" I proceed to perform at a minimal level. I get fired. Blaming n cursing everyone on the way out. "I was selling! Just not as fast as the dealership wanted."

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You should think of it more as engineers operating complex machines. The veteran knows what to do and how to operate it in the most effective way, but the newcomer doesn't. He wants to learn it one step at a time because one error can screw up the whole process. The veteran doesn't care / have the patience and just shoves the newcomer aside and does it themselves.

Sounds awesome, right? The newcomer doesn't get the chance to learn what to do.

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Originally Posted by SilkaN

You should think of it more as engineers operating complex machines. The veteran knows what to do and how to operate it in the most effective way, but the newcomer doesn't. He wants to learn it one step at a time because one error can screw up the whole process. The veteran doesn't care / have the patience and just shoves the newcomer aside and does it themselves.

Sounds awesome, right? The newcomer doesn't get the chance to learn what to do.

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I respectfully disagree. You cant compare the two. What you described is Savage Raid type content. There is nothing complex about gathering more than one group of mobs and holding aggro. Ya know, its just doing the same thing twice in overlapping fashion this thing of "pulling more than one group at a time." Nothing complex about it.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

I respectfully disagree. You cant compare the two. What you described is Savage Raid type content. There is nothing complex about gathering more than one group of mobs and holding aggro. Ya know, its just doing the same thing twice in overlapping fashion this thing of "pulling more than one group at a time." Nothing complex about it.

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That's great if you're comfortable doing that. But if you're not familiar with the dungeon or maybe a little shaky about your tanking (maybe due to experience, maybe due to gear), taking it slower until you're comfortable just makes sense.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Folks bashed the mentor for not mentoring and instead kicking. So the mentor telling OP to "pull all" isnt mentoring? Get this; Im a new salesman at a car dealership. Never sold cars before. The 5 year sales veteran appointed by my manager to mentor me tells me how to sell but I respond with "Eh, Im more comfortable selling my way instead (despite never having sold cars before. Derp)" I proceed to perform at a minimal level. I get fired. Blaming n cursing everyone on the way out. "I was selling! Just not as fast as the dealership wanted." Blah blah blah. You get the point. .

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Why do people compare video games to real life jobs. We paying to play this game, not getting paid.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

That's great if you're comfortable doing that. But if you're not familiar with the dungeon or maybe a little shaky about your tanking (maybe due to experience, maybe due to gear), taking it slower until you're comfortable just makes sense.

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Ive never kicked or agreed to kick a tank who mass pulled and failed due to being undergeared. But I have left groups where the tank is overgeared and pulling one group at a time. I mass pulled as a PLD, I stance danced as a SCH and restored TP/MP as a MCH. Throw me into the next patch of new dungeons and I will mass pull, stance dance and restore from the word "commence". You run one dungeon, youve ran them all.

Nothing elitist about me at all. Im a casual gamer, but a casual gamer since 2.0. And this "im new" security blanket 60s drape on themselves is pathetic. You arent running Satasha NM as a new leaf, youre 60 levels deep into the 3.0 content.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Ive never kicked or agreed to kick a tank who mass pulled and failed due to being undergeared. But I have left groups where the tank is overgeared and pulling one group at a time. I mass pulled as a PLD, I stance danced as a SCH and restored TP/MP as a MCH. Throw me into the next patch of new dungeons and I will mass pull, stance dance and restore from the word "commence". You run one dungeon, youve ran them all.

Nothing elitist about me at all. Im a casual gamer, but a casual gamer since 2.0. And this "im new" security blanket 60s drape on themselves is pathetic. You arent running Satasha NM as a new leaf, youre 60 levels deep into the 3.0 content.

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It's possible not everyone is as good a player as you claim to be

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Originally Posted by Callinon

It's possible not everyone is as good a player as you claim to be

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Aaand there's the toxic behavior ive heard so much about. Gud gud.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Aaand there's the toxic behavior ive heard so much about. Gud gud.

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I don't see how they are toxic and your attitude sounds pretty unpleasant

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Folks bashed the mentor for not mentoring and instead kicking. So the mentor telling OP to "pull all" isnt mentoring?

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Um no it not mentoring, you don't need to be a mentor to say 2 words and then spam it over and over in a demanding fashion.

OP, being pretty new myself, I feel for you. So far I've run into really friendly and helpful people in dungeons and I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with it. I'm finding that doing a quick search on youtube before running a dungeon that's new to me is quite helpful for me to know what to expect. Still, even games with nice friendly people in the community will have a few mean people. Don't give up! The awesome community is here too!

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Originally Posted by duhgirl2u2

I'm finding that doing a quick search on youtube before running a dungeon that's new to me is quite helpful for me to know what to expect.

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You shouldn't be expected to look up any casual content like dungeons, 24 person raids etc. beforehand. But if you wish to be informed before seeing the actual content yourself, then go ahead, of course. :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

You shouldn't be expected to look up any casual content like dungeons, 24 person raids etc. beforehand. But if you wish to be informed before seeing the actual content yourself, then go ahead, of course. :)

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Actually, if it's my first time doing content, I look it up on Youtube to know what awaits me and to not slow down my party members.
There is no excuse for players who do not look up content and then write stuff like "anything to watch out for?".
Naturally, this does not apply to new content.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If you ever try to do a Extreme primal, you will found it even worse. You won't be able to join anything because "Skip Soar", etc. I don't believe any more with the "FFXIV Community is great" like 2 years ago. That's no longer valid for this game. People is trying to turn this into a toxic shit like Lol, WoW or similar, and they are succeeding. And they are proud of quick players for note "being in the average" and other stupid reasons.

Sorry, but the FFXIV is no longer nice anymore. We lost it because people want this game only for "pros", building a wall to avoid newies or less skilled layers to join anything. And even justify it.

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I really feel a lot of these claims have come from bandwagonning. That is not to say that there aren't parties that will disband or kick if the first soar isn't skipped- there are. However, those parties say they will do that in the very description. Don't join those parties if you can't meet those requirements! I see less and less of these parties and more "know how to handle soar and tether please" parties. I'm even in the datacenter with Gilgamesh and Balmung, too; the two servers that probably really pushed for those requirements the most. You make it sound like it's a majority of the community, and it's not. It's a portion of the community demanding this. I really wish people would stop blowing issues like this out of proportions.

Also, how will you know if people can or can't do things without trying? Also, if you approach it with a negative attitude, you've already set yourself to fail.

Onto another relevant topic, the OP is a new player to the dungeon, but not really a new player if they're hitting level 60, end of 3.0 base story. The basics of the game are not new anymore. While I don't mind people going in blind, but if you're going to ask what to watch out for, why not ask Google that? For the sake of the argument that there was a mentor- yes, I am aware. You can get mentorship very easily, to the point that you don't even need the majority of dungeons previously done. As people have pointed out, you can easily farm up the 1,000 needed dungeons doing unsynced content. What if the mentor didn't know either because they never did it before? We have ourselves a little paradox here!

While people are quick to point out flaws with the mentor system, this often gets overlooked. You can put on the crown and queue for dungeons normally and still keep the crown. Or you can use mentor roulette and be forced to wear the crown into a random dungeon- but this requires you to have most dungeons completed. However, my main point was to call to attention the previous paragraph and the fact you can queue normally with a crown and appear as if you used mentor roulette.

Just a thought provoking observation there.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

The basics of the game are not new anymore. While I don't mind people going in blind, but if you're going to ask what to watch out for, why not ask Google that?

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Might have something to do with there being an actual community in game. What's the point of playing with other people if you're going to treat them as NPCs? Why have a chat at all if everyone's just expected to know what to do? It's just another example of expecting everyone to play like pros, and anything less is wasting your time. Everyone has to learn at some point. Every bit of content is new to somebody at any given time.

Besides, not everyone is a visual learner. Watching a video, reading a guide, these things aren't going to help for everybody. Expecting everybody to play the game the way you do is not a way to foster a pleasant experience for anybody.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You shouldn't be expected to look up any casual content like dungeons, 24 person raids etc. beforehand. But if you wish to be informed before seeing the actual content yourself, then go ahead, of course. :)

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I think it's generally polite to try and be as little of a hindrance to the group as possible. Taking a few minutes to be prepared is something everyone should do in my opinion in old content particularly.

I don't expect everyone to be mistake-less in their first, second, maybe even 3rd and so on runs since learning through experience is the best way to learn, but it really gets tiresome having to stop and explain everything in every fight or watching someone else type paragraphs for every little mechanic when the exact same information is readily available online and doesn't come at the cost of holding the group up.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I think it's generally polite to try and be as little of a hindrance to the group as possible. Taking a few minutes to be prepared is something everyone should do in my opinion in old content particularly.

I don't expect everyone to be mistake-less in their first, second, maybe even 3rd and so on runs since learning through experience is the best way to learn, but it really gets tiresome having to stop and explain everything in every fight or watching someone else type paragraphs for every little mechanic when the exact same information is readily available online and doesn't come at the cost of holding the group up.

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Well, to be fair I wrote that under the assumption that an average player in casual content such as dungeons and 24 person raids is able to read the battles well enough to be able to get by well enough without constantly wiping their group. I personally run every content from leveling dungeons to savage and primal fights blind the first time I do them, and I've never considered myself as a hindrance to my group because of that (nor have I ever been complained to about it). Granted I do most of them with full FC groups or on a patch day.

I do think it's ridiculous to expect players to watch guides before standard dungeon runs, story fights or 24 person dungeons. For me at least it would ruin the whole experience of actually seeing and experiencing the content for the first time. And it's very rare that 1 person even can mess up everything badly enough to cause significant hindrance to their group in this kind of content. In fact, just today we did 2 level 60 dungeons and Dun Scaith with a healer who was running them for the first time and didn't know absolutely anything about the instances. In all of the 3 instances, we wiped once - intentionally, since the first timer was dead and we didn't want to finish the boss without her. Queueing for Raid Finder content is a different matter, and for that I personally expect everyone to be prepared beforehand.

Also, I don't think that first timers should expect anyone to explain the fights to them in the instance. If you want to go blind and not prepare for the fight, go blind and do as well as you can. If you want explanations, look them up online before the run.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

The basics of the game are not new anymore. While I don't mind people going in blind, but if you're going to ask what to watch out for, why not ask Google that?

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Jesus fu--yes, exactly! One of my biggest pet-peeves. I don't mind giving pointers if someone asks, but I would also wonder why they couldn't have just looked it up beforehand if they really wanted to know.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

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The point is if you're going to stop the group to ask for tips anyway (versus just attempting a straight blind run), why couldn't you have just looked up a guide before queuing in the first place? That way you're able to take your time understanding the material and you're likely to find a much better description of mechanics than a hastily typed message in game chat. Plus you're not making the other people in the party/raid wait around for however long it takes to go over the basics and make sure you understand them properly.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Plus you're not making the other people in the party/raid wait around for however long it takes to go over the basics and make sure you understand them properly.

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Which is usually all of 2 minutes over the entire dungeon because generally if someone's going to help with that, they're going to anticipate giving that help again on the other bosses. They won't wait to be asked again.

Stop exaggerating the impact this actually has on a run.

Sorry you had this kind of behaviour for a MSQ run, Kragon.
To be fair, the 2nd instance you mention sounds like an epic dps fail, so maybe they saw that and wanted an easy way out of the dungeon without getting the 30min penalty -I think it might not have been something personal at all, they could kick anyone.

Now, for the 1st run, you did the right thing. It is up to you, as a tank to gauge how much and when you pull. The "pull more" spam really makes me laugh: if they really wanted a speedrun they would have used partyfinder, and if they were soooo confident in their awesome dps/healing skills they would have done and cleared the additional pull themselves -the fact that they didn't speaks volumes.


Also, keep in mind that most "mentors" you see in duties are either (a) farming for the mount in Mentor roulette, or (b) of the slacker variety you may see in Idyllshire doing nothing (if Odin is anything like Lich). They don't mentor because they can't/don't want to, and although this is breaking the agreement for the mentor status, there is nothing in place to revoke said status.

Finally, some little insight for the lol-try-hards in the thread: pulling more, wiping due to dps/heal fail, respawning, running back and starting over with mobs reset to 100% HP will take longer than doing smaller pulls and clearing them.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

The point is if you're going to stop the group to ask for tips anyway (versus just attempting a straight blind run), why couldn't you have just looked up a guide before queuing in the first place? That way you're able to take your time understanding the material and you're likely to find a much better description of mechanics than a hastily typed message in game chat. Plus you're not making the other people in the party/raid wait around for however long it takes to go over the basics and make sure you understand them properly.

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I'll just refer back to maybe some people like to play with other people, rather than treating parties as bots of variable skill.

I don't really care one way or another. I'm an odd player, myself. But I would've expected in an MMO, players would enjoy interaction, rather than encouraging behavior that reduces the need to interact with anyone.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Onto another relevant topic, the OP is a new player to the dungeon, but not really a new player if they're hitting level 60, end of 3.0 base story. The basics of the game are not new anymore. While I don't mind people going in blind, but if you're going to ask what to watch out for, why not ask Google that? For the sake of the argument that there was a mentor- yes, I am aware. You can get mentorship very easily, to the point that you don't even need the majority of dungeons previously done. As people have pointed out, you can easily farm up the 1,000 needed dungeons doing unsynced content. What if the mentor didn't know either because they never did it before? We have ourselves a little paradox here!

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Some people enjoy actually interacting with their groups and learning from other players, rather than keeping every group experience as distantly asocial as possible as though it were merely a naked transactional exchange of labor. Additionally, when other players explain a fight, it's likely they'll pare down the explanation to the bare essentials, which may help some players understand what to do by excluding information that's superfluous for their role. It's not as much of a problem in this game, but it's simply about different people learning better in different ways.


I am apparently doomed to be a shadow forever.

That kick doesn't even really make sense anyway. After the first boss there's very little opportunity to pull more than one pack and after the second every single pull is gated. It would have been much faster to just keep you in party and continue than kick and wait forever for a new tank and then still proceed at the same pace. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Jesus fu--yes, exactly! One of my biggest pet-peeves. I don't mind giving pointers if someone asks, but I would also wonder why they couldn't have just looked it up beforehand if they really wanted to know.

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Because this is a social game. You don't need to write paragraphs about strategy, just a simple "make sure you kill the adds, and avoid the AOEs".

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Because this is a social game. You don't need to write paragraphs about strategy, just a simple "make sure you kill the adds, and avoid the AOEs".

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Exactly! Just did an instance ( the Nidhogg one ) with a tank who never tanked the instance before and a DPS who had not done it in ages. A quick 15 seconds or less per boss fight was all it took and I'm not even a mentor. We had no wipes the whole run and we had fun while doing it.

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Originally Posted by Kragon

Is being a new player in mmorpgs a crime nowadays?

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The real crime is have mentors not adeguate to their role and let it pass.

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Originally Posted by Kragon

..... Is being a new player in mmorpgs a crime nowadays?

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When I was new there were same bad / nice ppl. And there was no vote kick at that moment, bad guys just kept spamming "leave!"
So I think that was not something new nowadays.

Btw, if you have not experienced these things before you reached ARF, then it was not bad at all!!
Actually it was so great as very often new guys starts got kick by MENTORs since lv18 dungeon!! ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Actually it was so great as very often new guys starts got kick by MENTORs since lv18 dungeon!! ^^;

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I question how often that actually happens.

/pet

/10char

ok i don't usually post, but i wanted to hear some opinions.

so i've been doing tank runs on my PLD for relic and i was doing lv 60 roulette and got ARF. within the first few pulls, i noticed things were dying really slow. like, i'd put rampart up when we start the mob and by the time we're done with that one, my rampart is back up again.

so i checked the battle log and this dragoon (he was a sprout), was spamming impulse drive. yes, IMPULSE DRIVE. so before the first boss, i pointed him out etc. no response. so i initiated a vote kick, which was rejected.

so, i said "k you guys don't want him to leave? i'll leave" then i left the dungeon lol.

seriously, i don't think anyone should be allowed to reach lv 60 and still be this bad.

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Originally Posted by jellopy

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I guess it depends how thick skinned you are. You are fully entitled to vote kick based on "differing playstyles" (because that is apparently the official definition of poor play). As for the no response, I don't know how difficult it is to type on PS4, but that may be a factor in the silence, I would have waited to see if he changed up his rotation after some pointers, but regardless nobody is going to fault you for your actions.

2 things.. with being kicked or kicking someone from ARF... its gotten worse over the years. this game does not teach people anything. u can literally get to 60 blm by spamming blizz 2 in fates. that being said... these same blizz 2 spammers are some extremely entitled group of players. 2ndly, the new meta in every encounter in this entire game INCLUDING every hunt mob, fate mob, quest mob, Extreme, 4man, 8man, 24man fight is do a ridiculous 20sec countdown for anything and everything then without paying attention to ready check, pull and zerg the boss, monster down and only do mechanics if its an absolute 1shot mechanic. and people still fail those. as long as that stands... I cant say it will change.

Speaking as someone who's leveled all jobs to 50, and all but two to 60, just let people play at their own pace. If you want to speedrun a dungeon or an instance for farming purposes, you have a brand spanking new cross-server party finder with which to find like-minded players. If you want to run a roulette or another instance via the duty finder, by checking that box and joining the queue, you're agreeing to party with 3/7 other strangers of varying levels of skill and kit. Getting irritated and impatient because you have another player in your party who wants to play it safe (because wipes totally aren't a waste of time) is a dick move. If the tank wants to take it nice and easy on his first run through a dungeon, let him. Enjoy your bonus and second chance points. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone can pick up and play this game proficiently, consistently. Expecting tanks to mass pull their first 60 dungeon when HW trash mobs hit like trucks is bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Viki

2 things.. with being kicked or kicking someone from ARF... its gotten worse over the years. this game does not teach people anything.

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That's why people should take things into their own hands and look up guides and such, and practice outside of dungeons if they're a dps. If people don't have the desire to look up guides on how to not be complete dead weight in a dungeon, these same people likely wouldn't do much better even if the game taught them.

Normally I try to carry bad players, but I'm almost at the point where I'm ready to just afk auto attack and enjoy some Youtube in the meantime whenever one or both of the dps are terrible, the healer is standing around doing nothing 90% of the time, or the tank is pulling every pack slowly even when small ones are clearly too easy for them.

I go in, i tank, i leave. if ppl are shit someone else can vote kick them, everyone of you had no clue about the game at some point. The only times i'll consider vote kicking is ppl being asshats/extended offline/afk. However if someone says "sorry if i do bad" "i'm new" it's code for "i dont really know what to expect can i have some pointers", people think there going to get there head chewed off for asking these days.

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Originally Posted by Carcer

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Whether it's because I have previous experience with MMOs or I'm a perfectionist or maybe just because I just cannot stand being carried, I actually had a reasonable idea of how to contribute to the group by the time I went in to Sashtasha for the first time.

I also leveled all of my jobs/classes almost entirely off dungeons, so picking up a new skill every few levels wasn't overwhelming since I immediately put them into practice and worked them into my rotations.

So this idea that everyone was dead weight at some point is false. No one should be dead weight by level 60, and dare I say even by level 30 or so. Anyone who is doing an abysmal job of contributing to the group at 60 and comes prepared with nothing more than excuses for bad play has every reason to deserve the disapproval they get. If they don't like it, they should take steps to solve the problem.

Understanding mechanics is a different issue. Everyone should look at guides if there are any for the content they're about to do so they don't needlessly hold the group up more than necessary, but I don't expect someone new or even in for their 5th time to have a perfect understanding of every mechanic in every bit of content and how to react since there's no way to practice the mechanics outside said content.

But people who are completely lost with rotations using skills they had 30 levels ago or seemingly don't even care going into dungeons and such and expecting everyone to accept it....no excuse for it. Just as for healers there's no true excuse for pseudo-afking and not using at least some downtime to throw out some dps, or tanks who do tiny pulls despite outgearing a dungeon by a huge margin and continuing to do tiny pulls even with an AoE heavy group and when they're obviously having an easy time of things.

If these kinds of things are acceptable, I don't even know why I bother playing at my best in dungeons any more. I've given plenty of free rides, maybe it's time I get some free rides myself.

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Originally Posted by Adire

If these kinds of things are acceptable, I don't even know why I bother playing at my best in dungeons any more. I've given plenty of free rides, maybe it's time I get some free rides myself.

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People who have played other MMOs come into this one with the expectation that the whole player base should immediately be as experienced as they are. It's an easy assumption to make, and almost entirely useless. Some things that make that assumption less than useful include:

Lack of experience with another MMO
Lack of information about all those wonderful sites that tell you "how to get good" (in my experience, none of them do that well)
Lack of Youtube videos geared to inexperienced players.
Dearth of forum posts that discuss class/job rotations intelligently at anything under max level
Lack of a manual explaining what advantage that brand new spell you just received gives you, and how to work it into your rotation.

Add to that the wonderful level 60 changes to your rotation [Black mages, you have my sympathies] and you have players who Adire, for one, apparently can't stand to be around.

I wonder just how many "free rides" commentators had back in the days when all MMOs were new. It took me, for example, six months to learn there was an Auction House in WoW back in BC. Of course, back then there wasn't a Youtube, there weren't game databases, everything you learned was as God and the Developers (same thing, mostly) intended -- by making mistakes, and sometimes being taught by veteran players who didn't believe that they were giving a "free ride" by taking the time to work with inexperienced players.

Some advice, Adire. Get some "free rides" from others in a dungeon instance now and then. It may surprise you to learn that story dungeons might take a little longer, but they're not entirely hopeless.

And, of course, if you only mean 'hard mode' or 'expert' dungeon queues ... none of this really applies to the OP, does it? ARF is a story mode instance.