Ifirit, how it could have been done better.

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Originally Posted by KaiserSinclaire

People still pug? Isn't that the point of your ls? If your doing shit with an Ls you shouldn't even be concerned about "Ninjaing" utterly eliminating that point. If you have a competent LS who can down Ifrit no problem then whats the issue? We all know the loot system is silly Devs, Players, everyone knows its silly. I believe the "Need before Greed" system in combo with the "Master Loot" system will be the most beneficial and proficient system out of the choices. Did you guys even play FF11? Remember when people would gil farm the jackboots then make them retarded expensive? Everyone who needed a pair either had to beat botters or buy them for your first born son lol. All I'm saying is this. If we don't want our already weak economy to go belly up then the craft able Ifrit weapon system is utterly and totally a failed idea.

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First post! Welcome to the forums.. You can stay if you remain on this path of logic and understanding :D

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Yeah the drop rate is low, as it should be.

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Why should the drop rate be so low?

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Why should the drop rate be so low?

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...because the gear should be rare. Keeps the content active and justifies the power of the item. Thought that was obvious. Is there a FF game where low drop rates on epic gear is not expected?

The difficulty of the fight should justify the power of the item. The reason it's fine to have to have low success rates on forbidden materia is because there's no difficulty, no skill, no thought, no pulse required. Ifrit's insanely low drop rates aren't justified considering the content of the fight. The super low drop rates are only "obvious" if you're designing a shitty system.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

The difficulty of the fight should justify the power of the item. The reason it's fine to have to have low success rates on forbidden materia is because there's no difficulty, no skill, no thought, no pulse required. Ifrit's insanely low drop rates aren't justified considering the content of the fight. The super low drop rates are only "obvious" if you're designing a shitty system.

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I hope you're not trying to insist that the Ifrit fight is difficult... I'd have to suggest that you may have less than average intelligence if you struggle with the fight given the amount of information including detailed strategies that exist currently.

The fight is so easy that giving away free items would be ridiculous and you would see even more people than you do currently wielding those flame poons. As stated before the only true fallback in this system, which we all agree is shitty design, is that you are able to get duplicates of items you already possess.

Have a great fucking night Zack Brannigan.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

The difficulty of the fight should justify the power of the item. The reason it's fine to have to have low success rates on forbidden materia is because there's no difficulty, no skill, no thought, no pulse required. Ifrit's insanely low drop rates aren't justified considering the content of the fight. The super low drop rates are only "obvious" if you're designing a shitty system.

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Right.

Let's just own up Ifrit, get our favorite weapon first and then get the other 6 in like 2 days and call it until the next patch. Genius.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

I hope you're not trying to insist that the Ifrit fight is difficult... I'd have to suggest that you may have less than average intelligence if you struggle with the fight given the amount of information including detailed strategies that exist currently.

The fight is so easy that giving away free items would be ridiculous and you would see even more people than you do currently wielding those flame poons. As stated before the only true fallback in this system, which we all agree is shitty design, is that you are able to get duplicates of items you already possess.

Have a great fucking night Zack Brannigan.

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If the Ifrit fight itself isn't difficult (which it's not) then the solution isn't to make the drops super rare, it's to make the drops not as good. I don't understand how you can possibly justify getting Dark Matter 50 times in a row unless you just like doing mindless shit. Duplicates are NOT the only flaw.

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Right.

Let's just own up Ifrit, get our favorite weapon first and then get the other 6 in like 2 days and call it until the next patch. Genius.

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Let's artificially extend content life by filling players' pockets with Dark Matter because we put a 15 minute lockout on success instead of something more fitting.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

If the Ifrit fight itself isn't difficult (which it's not) then the solution isn't to make the drops super rare, it's to make the drops not as good. I don't understand how you can possibly justify getting Dark Matter 50 times in a row unless you just like doing mindless shit. Duplicates are NOT the only flaw.

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So, you're solution to low drop rate son epic gear is to increase the drop rates and make the gear weaker?

So we should just have much more of slightly above average gear instead of a handful of very strong gear?

What did you say about shitty design again?..

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Let's artificially extend content life by filling players' pockets with Dark Matter because we put a 15 minute lockout on success instead of something more fitting.

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It's not a perfect system. Don't pretend what you're suggesting is any better.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

If the Ifrit fight itself isn't difficult (which it's not) then the solution isn't to make the drops super rare, it's to make the drops not as good. I don't understand how you can possibly justify getting Dark Matter 50 times in a row unless you just like doing mindless shit. Duplicates are NOT the only flaw.

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Err.... Materia on the market, you suggest making the items that drop from Ifrit not as good as they are now but with higher drop rates? .. What's the incentive to do the content then? if a regular craftable item with one Materia is better.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

So, you're solution to low drop rate son epic gear is to increase the drop rates and make the gear weaker?

So we should just have much more of slightly above average gear instead of a handful of very strong gear?

What did you say about shitty design again?..

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Gear can be an upgrade and worth getting without blowing everything else out of the water. This also opens you up for PROGRESSION with future content. The point is that if you've killed Ifrit 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 times then YES you've proven you can beat him and you should be done. I just grouped with someone on my server who finally got her last weapon after 350 fights. That. is. retarded.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

If the Ifrit fight itself isn't difficult (which it's not) then the solution isn't to make the drops super rare, it's to make the drops not as good. I don't understand how you can possibly justify getting Dark Matter 50 times in a row unless you just like doing mindless shit. Duplicates are NOT the only flaw.




Let's artificially extend content life by filling players' pockets with Dark Matter because we put a 15 minute lockout on success instead of something more fitting.

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Yeah - maybe we should go to 24-72 HNM pops that have the same low drop rate but 3 day wait / camp fest. The Ifrit fight is engaging, albeit it's fairly simple when you get it down and presents no struggle; you still don't see everyone beating it.

You want this to be WoW where you are guaranteed a drop every run? Cause that's fun... show up get gear log on next patch...

what's your suggestion mr. pro game designer

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Gear can be an upgrade and worth getting without blowing everything else out of the water. This also opens you up for PROGRESSION with future content. The point is that if you've killed Ifrit 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 times then YES you've proven you can beat him and you should be done. I just grouped with someone on my server who finally got her last weapon after 350 fights. That. is. retarded.

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And some people spent months / years camping NM's and didn't get anything.. what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Gear can be an upgrade and worth getting without blowing everything else out of the water. This also opens you up for PROGRESSION with future content. The point is that if you've killed Ifrit 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 times then YES you've proven you can beat him and you should be done. I just grouped with someone on my server who finally got her last weapon after 350 fights. That. is. retarded.

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Again this is due to the 2nd layer RNG - the duplicates going to waste. How many times have I said that now? You're a lost cause...

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Originally Posted by RemVye

And some people spent months / years camping NM's and didn't get anything.. what's your point?

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My point is that is fucking retarded.

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You want this to be WoW where you are guaranteed a drop every run? Cause that's fun... show up get gear log on next patch...

what's your suggestion mr. pro game designer

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WoW, EQ, etc. Yeah. Common and rare drops that are both useful. Dark Matter/nothing consolation prize is dumb as hell.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Again this is due to the 2nd layer RNG - the duplicates going to waste. How many times have I said that now? You're a lost cause...

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I've seen one(1(a single, non-duplicate harpoon)) weapon drop in 60+ kills now so duplicates are not the only problem :))))

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I've seen one(1(a single, non-duplicate harpoon)) weapon drop in 60+ kills now so duplicates are not the only problem :))))

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I heard if you lay Lady Luck you get a Harpoon.

A LSmate of mine got 2 harpoons back to back on his very first 2 kills. On top of that he got a Cudgel on his 3rd kill. It works.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

My point is that is fucking retarded.


WoW, EQ, etc. Yeah. Common and rare drops that are both useful. Dark Matter/nothing consolation prize is dumb as hell.

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Yes, def should have a game where everyone gets something in a run and everything is running around in the same gear set with no effort! Show up get loot! (Fun)!

If that's how you feel... this is not the game for you.


For the 12th time... the only flaw in the Ifrit fight is that you are able to get duplicates of items you already own.


Solution is to lower the drop rate and allow for trading of weapons or prevent users from getting weapons they don't have yet. Yoshi N' Crew talked about giving a gauranteed drop if you didn't receive one after X kills... I hope it's 25+ to be honest. Loot shouldn't be given away like candy on Halloween.

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For the 12th time... the only flaw in the Ifrit fight is that you are able to get duplicates of items you already own.

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For the 12th time you are wrong. : )

p.s. "This game is not for you" lol good one. I'm sure that'll go over well while re-launching this game for 2.0

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

For the 12th time you are wrong. : )

p.s. "This game is not for you" lol good one. I'm sure that'll go over well while re-launching this game for 2.0

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If you expect to show up once and get loot, you're a fool Harry Potter... you will lose

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Originally Posted by RemVye

If you expect to show up once and get loot, you're a fool Harry Potter... you will lose

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And if you really, truly think that the only problem with this loot system is duplicates then I hope for your sake you don't get unlucky on moogle drops.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

And if you really, truly think that the only problem with this loot system is duplicates then I hope for your sake you don't get unlucky on moogle drops.

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It's not the only problem with the loot system. It is the main problem with the drop rates seeming much lower than they actually are. Loot system is going to be changed for a sort of Need/Greed system. Yoshi said as much.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

And if you really, truly think that the only problem with this loot system is duplicates then I hope for your sake you don't get unlucky on moogle drops.

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I'll take my time and enjoy the fight.

I already conveyed solutions, some of which Yoshi maybe endorsing... what's your problem? You want auto-loot; then you should play a game that has that.

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Originally Posted by Dakin

He has been over this. The current system is working as intended. The drop rate as well as the random nature of loot serves as a time sink to keep players occupied until 1.20. As soon as they can roll out enough content to keep people occupied, they will most likely implement a need/greed system.

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theres no damn random nature in getting 5 Ifrits Canes in 20+ kills My 17Conj really needed that cane. Not like i would like a Greataxe for my MRD or Fists for my PUG no i need more Ifrits canes. I wish i could shove all those cane drops up Yoshis ass and see how he likes gettin shafted like me.

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Originally Posted by Hikozaemon

theres no damn random nature in getting 5 Ifrits Canes in 20+ kills My 17Conj really needed that cane. Not like i would like a Greataxe for my MRD or Fists for my PUG no i need more Ifrits canes. I wish i could shove all those cane drops up Yoshis ass and see how he likes gettin shafted like me.

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That is actually a perfect example of how random the loot distribution is, if there is a certain % chance for 1) an item dropping from the chest and 2) the same % for each item.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

So reading this few last posts, if the loot is the problem why dont we get a common mat and combined with other difficult mats you can make the weapon of your choice, i really dont like how the loot is atm at first with first NM's it was a lot more interesting system there, in order to get a drop you had to incapacitate the mob for a sure craft material, then you had to get a few more items mostly sold, others gotten in the same way like the dodore doublet, so at the end you would end up needing a crafter to get your armor or weapon, whats wrong with that?

I think those gears lasted a lot more than the ones that we are getting now, even now after 1 year theres a lot of people using those, so in a few words i prefer by far the system we had and not the WoW style, where you have the extreme easy way to get all and for that everything becomes outdated sooner because even casual players find that boring after a while, back in XI i was more like a casual player so i never got the best of the best but i got good enough gear and was happy about it and i always focused on getting the best gear, so i never got bored.

This is an MMO, so everything should take more effort to get so other players may focus on something and you may be able to enjoy those items longer.

They just need to do one of two things to fix this problem:
1) Make the Ifrit loot system use the same loot system as everything else does at the moment. That way, if the item drops, you can give it to the right LS mate that can use it.
2) Make the item something you can turn in to an NPC to exchange for the weapon you want.

Why they did the Ifrit loot system in the first place, attempting to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place, blows my mind. Did people really ask for this ass-backwards Ifrit loot system?

Also, I do agree the low droprate is retarded. But that's the RNG for you - people think that because they "worked" for it by killing Ifrit 200 times and finally getting that item that you should go through the same shit too, Brannigan. They forget that it's just a stupid time sink that artificially lengthens the longevity of what little endgame content there is.

The players you are arguing with, Brannigan, may have a point that part of the reason why you and some other players may be complaining is that Lady Luck wasn't at your side, but I definitely agree with your argument that after the 9001st kill, you've already proven that you have the skill and strategy to kill him, it's just a matter of actually having that dumb RNG properly roll out towards your favor.

What I find even more ironic about this whole situation is that at some point, should XIV survive within the next year, there will probably be plans for an expansion that render these old weapons that players "worked" so hard for old and obsolete, and we'll probably have to deal with this retarded loot system again if SE doesn't learn their lesson.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

The difficulty of the fight should justify the power of the item. The reason it's fine to have to have low success rates on forbidden materia is because there's no difficulty, no skill, no thought, no pulse required. Ifrit's insanely low drop rates aren't justified considering the content of the fight. The super low drop rates are only "obvious" if you're designing a shitty system.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

The success rate of triple-melding something should be exceedingly low because it requires no thought. The Ifrit drop rates are retarded. It takes like 350 runs to get a full set of weapons. I, personally, am something like 1/50 (I stopped keeping track after I started punching myself in the dick). The problem IS the low drop rate and the fact that the consolation prize is dark matter instead of a turn-in item that you can collect (for the record I don't think that he should drop crafting materials)

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Pressing a button and playing a slot machine is the same thing as defeating a boss with a group. Cool.

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It requires much more than you think mate. To get a 3x IV item requires a lots of time & gil, you either earn the money to buy materias or spiritbond it urself (usually in a group as well). You also have to make the weapons/equips for melding and often you are going to dye the items because they have better stats (costly & time consuming). For felt sets you might have to farm karakul fleece yourself too. Then you try to HQ items or alter the combinations to get a better %. Its alot of hard work in there. Pressing the “Absolutely!” Button is just that last step of the whole process and I am sure some people think a lot & hold their breath before they press that button.

I definitely agree a better distribution system is needed so the player who gets the drop can pass it to others. But if you wanna get a full set of ifrit weapons…then you have to try a lot of times. At least you don’t have to pay to visit Ifrit for 350 times

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Originally Posted by elreed

So reading this few last posts, if the loot is the problem why dont we get a common mat and combined with other difficult mats you can make the weapon of your choice, i really dont like how the loot is atm at first with first NM's it was a lot more interesting system there, in order to get a drop you had to incapacitate the mob for a sure craft material, then you had to get a few more items mostly sold, others gotten in the same way like the dodore doublet, so at the end you would end up needing a crafter to get your armor or weapon, whats wrong with that?
.

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This was already explained... the crafters make the best items in the game already, why should they have control over the second best as well?

Multi Materia Gear/Weps > Ex/Rare NM drops > Single Materia Gear/Weps > No Materia Gear/Weps

So you want crafters to have control over all gear in the entire game? That's the problem.

This has probably been said somewhere in this thread. The compromise between the OP's proposal and the present.

Ifrit sometimes drops his horns, horns are untradeable, can be exchanged at an NPC for weapon of choice.

Requires that you be in the party to complete the fight.
Removes the crafter, HQ, materia possibility out of the equation.
Removes the current loot system fury for Ifrit weapons out of the equation.
Carries Yoshi-P's desire that you could get a weapon from a class you weren't playing with and the drop is still random.

And now the part that will cause even more conflict:
Should the horns be unique to encourage party breaking or sheer altruism (you got horns, party wants to rerun, because they didn't get horns)?

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Originally Posted by Murugan

They better not lock us into it though, I at least want the level of options we had at launch. I want to be able to pass items, if I can do at least that frankly I am happy because then we can deal with loot ourselves, as a linkshell.

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I saw you say this in multiple posts implying you can not pass with a "need or greed" system. You do realize you can right? There is a little red x that you click which passes :P.

Not to mention you keep bringing up WoW, which their system of need or greed was only applicable for there Dungeon Finder. Any Guild with half a brain distributed Loot via Master.. which was usually a leader or GM that would look at the DKP and determine who deserved it, bold'd that for you since you like using that word :D.

Even if they didn't port over Master Loot, which I don't see why they wouldn't, the LS leader can just force people to pass to the person who greeds(if their not on the right class, and if the system truly does restrict them). Not rocket science to figure out you still have control over where the loot goes. And since your LS is "perfect" all your members shouldn't ninja loot and quietly pass since they all love you for some reason.

Regardless I'm pretty sure you're just against Need or Greed since it was in WoW, and for w/e reason FF fans(which i played XI for yeaaaars before playing wow) treat WoW like it molested them when they were younger or something. It confuses me how crazy some people get on an emotional level when they have the WoW v FF fight.

Anyways proceed with your fight :D I mean argument..

I don't really like the OP's idea, but I don't like the current, or past systems either. I am a typical run-of-the-mill, ex-hardcore MMO player. Back in high school I could run things all day every day, I had no bills or family that cared, etc. Now, I want to log in, experience content, get a reward for experiencing such content, be happy, and do more content a little later because the reward I got the first time made me want to come back for more. This is typically how it works with MMORPGs and raiding.

I'm going to use WoW as an example and I know 9/10 people will disregard everything I say because of it, but you are the minority so get over yourself. In WoW, there is ALWAYS a reward for doing content, whether it is in the forum of currency (gold drops), reputation (which leads to loot vendors over time), and drops on top of all of that. In addition, this content is designed around multiple tiers of bosses where you don't go go kill a boss and that was your chance at loot for the week. You kill several bosses and have several chances. And the bosses always drop something, so even if it's not for you, you still see all the people around you getting phat loot, I would also consider that a reward as well.

The last time I logged into XIV, I did Ifrit for the first time. I spent I believe 2 full sessions (total of 10-15 hours). This is the equivalent to an entire raid week in WoW, perhaps more. What did I get? Absolutely nothing, no currency, no rep, nothing. Over the course of all of this time, my groups saw less than 5 total weapons drop. I did get a drop, but it was the PGL weapon, one of the only 2 classes I haven't leveled yet. And I saw it drop twice. I haven't logged on since.

The system in place right now (even after a need/greed system) is lackluster when compared to competition. If SE wants me to come back (and pay a monthly fee...) before 2.0, they need to design better content, because not only does the loot system suck, but the entire system of content in this game is completely shallow. There's nothing to it but a boss and a chest, which may or may not have anything in it at all.

My suggestion would just be adopt a standard MMORPG loot system. One person opens chest, it has a random number of 2-4 (4 being VERY rare, 2 being most common) weapons, doubles can drop, but at least you get something every time. In addition, they should add something else, maybe a token that drops every kill. So let's say you kill him 50 times and you still don't have that 1 weapon you really wanted, you could take it to your company vendor and exchange the 50 tokens for that weapon you never got.

Sure, some people might get weapons a little faster/easier, but MMORPG's shouldn't be so brutal when it comes to drops.

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Originally Posted by Ava

I don't really like the OP's idea, but I don't like the current, or past systems either. I am a typical run-of-the-mill, ex-hardcore MMO player. Back in high school I could run things all day every day, I had no bills or family that cared, etc. Now, I want to log in, experience content, get a reward for experiencing such content, be happy, and do more content a little later because the reward I got the first time made me want to come back for more. This is typically how it works with MMORPGs and raiding.

I'm going to use WoW as an example and I know 9/10 people will disregard everything I say because of it, but you are the minority so get over yourself. In WoW, there is ALWAYS a reward for doing content, whether it is in the forum of currency (gold drops), reputation (which leads to loot vendors over time), and drops on top of all of that. In addition, this content is designed around multiple tiers of bosses where you don't go go kill a boss and that was your chance at loot for the week. You kill several bosses and have several chances. And the bosses always drop something, so even if it's not for you, you still see all the people around you getting phat loot, I would also consider that a reward as well.

The last time I logged into XIV, I did Ifrit for the first time. I spent I believe 2 full sessions (total of 10-15 hours). This is the equivalent to an entire raid week in WoW, perhaps more. What did I get? Absolutely nothing, no currency, no rep, nothing. Over the course of all of this time, my groups saw less than 5 total weapons drop. I did get a drop, but it was the PGL weapon, one of the only 2 classes I haven't leveled yet. And I saw it drop twice. I haven't logged on since.

The system in place right now (even after a need/greed system) is lackluster when compared to competition. If SE wants me to come back (and pay a monthly fee...) before 2.0, they need to design better content, because not only does the loot system suck, but the entire system of content in this game is completely shallow. There's nothing to it but a boss and a chest, which may or may not have anything in it at all.

My suggestion would just be adopt a standard MMORPG loot system. One person opens chest, it has a random number of 2-4 (4 being VERY rare, 2 being most common) weapons, doubles can drop, but at least you get something every time. In addition, they should add something else, maybe a token that drops every kill. So let's say you kill him 50 times and you still don't have that 1 weapon you really wanted, you could take it to your company vendor and exchange the 50 tokens for that weapon you never got.

Sure, some people might get weapons a little faster/easier, but MMORPG's shouldn't be so brutal when it comes to drops.

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WoW also has a lockout.. I'd rather do Ifrit 100 times a week than 1 time for a guaranteed drop.

10 - 15 hours doing Ifrit and only saw 5 items? I'm guessing you wiped a lot or had breaks. We see a drop pretty much every other run, though sometimes not at all for a few runs, then back to back for several runs. Duplicates are the only issue I have.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

WoW also has a lockout.. I'd rather do Ifrit 100 times a week than 1 time for a guaranteed drop.

10 - 15 hours doing Ifrit and only saw 5 items? I'm guessing you wiped a lot or had breaks. We see a drop pretty much every other run, though sometimes not at all for a few runs, then back to back for several runs. Duplicates are the only issue I have.

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We did around 6-7 hours solid no wipes at all, the second group had a hard time and we wiped some, yes. I'm not exactly sure how many drops we had, but only 2 people actually got "new" drops. A sword and my fists. I assumed the number ~5-6 considering the rate at which others were seeing drops, but they were likely all duplicates.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make mentioning lockouts. (Let me elaborate). Are you arguing that SE should appeal to the audience of people that want to do 100 Ifrits in a week? Good luck getting those monthly fees from people lol.

I don't enjoy crafting at all. No matter how easy, rewarding, and fun they make it, it's just not for me. I don't want a game that's going to heavily rely on me nagging crafters to make stuff for me. Materia was a pain already, let's not add much more to it.

WTB Ifrit's Shield. For gladiator of course :) Maybe it would have stats (Actually blocks+500) on it.

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Originally Posted by Ava

We did around 6-7 hours solid no wipes at all, the second group had a hard time and we wiped some, yes. I'm not exactly sure how many drops we had, but only 2 people actually got "new" drops. A sword and my fists. I assumed the number ~5-6 considering the rate at which others were seeing drops, but they were likely all duplicates.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make mentioning lockouts. (Let me elaborate). Are you arguing that SE should appeal to the audience of people that want to do 100 Ifrits in a week? Good luck getting those monthly fees from people lol.

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Are you trying to say they should appeal to the audience of people that want to log in for one night a week beat the newest instance / boss and then log on next week?

I'm really not saying anything.. for myself, the fight is fun - albeit a little too easy at this point but still fun. I personally would rather do 100 Ifrit fights than 1 and be locked out.

Edit: Oh and even in WoW's lockout system you might not get your drop. You could get the same drops for weeks on end. So I would def rather try my luck at 500 Ifrit attempts in a month than 4 chances at my drop in WoW.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Are you trying to say they should appeal to the audience of people that want to log in for one night a week beat the newest instance / boss and then log on next week?

I'm really not saying anything.. for myself, the fight is fun - albeit a little too easy at this point but still fun. I personally would rather do 100 Ifrit fights than 1 and be locked out.

Edit: Oh and even in WoW's lockout system you might not get your drop. You could get the same drops for weeks on end. So I would def rather try my luck at 500 Ifrit attempts in a month than 4 chances at my drop in WoW.

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That's exactly what I'm saying. Those people's monthly fee is worth just as much as yours, and there are more of them than you. Hence why WoW, Rift, and soon to be SWTOR are among the only widely successful MMORPGs. They appeal to that very crowd - the majority. Now, of course, they can't ignore the group that wants to do Ifrit 100 times in one week, so they should still provide hardcore content, but it should come AFTER the casual content because the casuals will bring in the $$$.

Edit: An example of making Ifrit both casual and hardcore without removing the "uniqueness" from the game (crafters wont be happy but this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion) would be to use the token idea I mentioned above and instead of buying weapons, perhaps you can use the tokens to "unlock" the weapons and allow you to apply materia to them. They could maybe incorporate crafters in with it by using an enchantment type system but I don't think the UI could support that right now. Either way, they don't need to segregate the casuals and hardcores, just make the content multi-tiered so casuals can do it and get stuff, but hardcores can do it and get even more/better stuff.

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Originally Posted by Ava

That's exactly what I'm saying. Those people's monthly fee is worth just as much as yours, and there are more of them than you. Hence why WoW, Rift, and soon to be SWTOR are among the only widely successful MMORPGs. They appeal to that very crowd - the majority. Now, of course, they can't ignore the group that wants to do Ifrit 100 times in one week, so they should still provide hardcore content, but it should come AFTER the casual content because the casuals will bring in the $$$.

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Ok that 100 times was an exaggeration, so let's drop that. You're starting to make it sound like its necessary; which it's not. You have just as much chance to get your drop on the first attempt as you do in WoW on your first attempt.

Don't think that I'm ignorant enough to believe WoW is unsuccessful, but the fact is that game is dying. RIFT has a crowd but it's basically WoW 2.0 with slight variation and most people I've heard said it's the same thing (I thought it was identical as soon as I played for 2 minutes in the beta. Beta for 4 hours was all I had played that though.) As for SWToR... who knows how that's going to fair, it's got a lot of copies pre-ordered but you never know.

Ifrit is casual, you just have the OPTION to do it as many times as you like. Luck can be on your side and you get all the drops in 7 runs... or against you and it takes 150+.

We all know there is a problem with the loot distribution, but making an auto drop + lockout system would be donkey sh*t in my opinion. Locking people out of the limited content that exists would be playerbase suicide, in my most humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Ok that 100 times was an exaggeration, so let's drop that. You're starting to make it sound like its necessary; which it's not. You have just as much chance to get your drop on the first attempt as you do in WoW on your first attempt.

Don't think that I'm ignorant enough to believe WoW is unsuccessful, but the fact is that game is dying. RIFT has a crowd but it's basically WoW 2.0 with slight variation and most people I've heard said it's the same thing (I thought it was identical as soon as I played for 2 minutes in the beta. Beta for 4 hours was all I had played that though.) As for SWToR... who knows how that's going to fair, it's got a lot of copies pre-ordered but you never know.

Ifrit is casual, you just have the OPTION to do it as many times as you like. Luck can be on your side and you get all the drops in 7 runs... or against you and it takes 150+.

We all know there is a problem with the loot distribution, but making an auto drop + lockout system would be donkey sh*t in my opinion. Locking people out of the limited content that exists would be playerbase suicide, in my most humble opinion.

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The Logic Train has a new conductor today.

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Locking people out of the limited content that exists would be playerbase suicide, in my most humble opinion.

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Yup, very common sense. The simple solution is to make drops rarer and lottable/whatever. An LS should be able to sort it out amongst themselves. That way the player base stays and people get to feel like special snowflakes again, everyone is happy.