Here you go Yoshida, hard-straight stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tachikoma

one thing that should have been shown in the OP's post is the total # of chests opened vs the total # of weapons collected, by saying 100 fights and # of drops its not very impacting especially from the perspective of the endgame community BUT by saying u opened:

800 chests and collected a total of 88 drops. pretty close to a 10% drop rate of any weapon.

Probability:

x=10% drop rate (1/7 at the weapon you want)===>.7%{effective drop rate}
y=100 (number of runs)

1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y ) = 1 - ((1-.007)^100) = 0.50463553464414735617482632768592

basically you have just over a 50% chance to get your desired weapon if you kill ifrit 100 times. I have played a lot of MMO's and this type of drop rate is not what I would consider casual or reasonable. Less then a 1% drop rate and ppl say things like:

---

Solid post but 10% x 1/7 is not 0.7% Its 1.43%

Through 100 runs you have a 75% chance of getting the weapon you need.

I've only done Ifrit a handful of times but I only have one drop, yet I've seen my one drop drop multiple times. And to top it off, it's for one of the two classes I don't have leveled. Let's just say I haven't done Ifrit since.

The system needs fixing. Seriously.

Silly question. If your at the casino, and your blackjack dealer says "sorry, you already had an ace and a jack, you lose" what do say.........?
Or how about 2 10's only wins if your a teacher, you have to get a queen and a ten to win because your <insert career>?

Just curious

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vorn

Silly question. If your at the casino, and your blackjack dealer says "sorry, you already had an ace and a jack, you lose" what do say.........?
Or how about 2 10's only wins if your a teacher, you have to get a queen and a ten to win because your <insert career>?

Just curious

---

how about if you go to a raffle and you win the kitchen appliances, but you wanted the car. Or a box falls off a truck and you wanted it to have speakers in it, but it had designer clothes.

you won, you just didnt win what you wanted to win. You knew this going in.

0/20 atm, and still counting....

...but i have lots of grade 5 matter :(

Well I was sitting back just now, And I do agree the system is a load of sh*t, but I THINK I figured out WHY they have it this way.

One thing that prevented endgame from ever being 'Casual' to most people I know, is the "point system" LSs do, that force gear to certain players.

If you are casual, the non casual players will always out point u, and you will never see anything.

So in theory, this system can give something to a player who can't play often.

But of coarse, the over all system is bullsh*t and needs to go back to "Collect a number of coins, trade in for the gear u want, with a 1% chance of the real weapon dropping from the boss." system we have seen in other MMOs.

Drop rate is fine but allow us to give the item to others -.-

Personally I don't see what the issue is... You can kill him 4 times an hour. In WoW I would generally raid for 6 hours twice a week. That's 50 attempts a week or 100 attempts in 24 hours of play or 200 attempts in 48 hours of play. In FF11 i would camp sometimes for 16 hours for a shot at grabbing a monster I would attempt it for months at a time. These are the best weapons in the game after all... Fight em an hour or two a day for a while or when ever casually and eventually before new content guess what you'll be 7/7

@ Claire Pendragon:

Yeah this is why I believe it was implemented this way. It's not a good system at all but the idea was just.

@ Bear:
I would really like the system if you could pass weapons around or if you could do so if you got a duplicate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Solid post but 10% x 1/7 is not 0.7% Its 1.43%

Through 100 runs you have a 75% chance of getting the weapon you need.

---

thank you! I knew something didn't seem correct I was not even paying attention when I messed up the basic part: 10% of 1/7th... lame on my part but ya thanks for the correction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thepoet03

Personally I don't see what the issue is... You can kill him 4 times an hour. In WoW I would generally raid for 6 hours twice a week. That's 50 attempts a week or 100 attempts in 24 hours of play or 200 attempts in 48 hours of play. In FF11 i would camp sometimes for 16 hours for a shot at grabbing a monster I would attempt it for months at a time. These are the best weapons in the game after all... Fight em an hour or two a day for a while or when ever casually and eventually before new content guess what you'll be 7/7

---

You are forgetting the part where after you camp them, it was possible for these items to be given to people in your group that were actually capeable of using them. How would you have felt in xi if a person that mained white mage got 4 E bodies in a row and each time they got one after the first it simply dropped to the ground because the game decided "lol this person already got this incredibly rare drop"

Dunno why they couldn't just make it where you get ex/rare item and take that to NPC to choose which reward to take or like FFXI where you beat Ifrit and be able to choose the weapon, summon, accessory, and that other item needed to fight another one.... forgot the name.... but option like that. This is another reason why I didn't ask my wife to lets go try out Ifrit... she will go insane if she gets some crap and say we do it again and same stuff goes to her... she will get pissed... and I end up hearing about it lol

Hi Keftenk (and to Yoshida-san),

Excellent post!

I totally agree, and it's *very* obvious Yoshida-san and his team did this as a stall tactic and BAD Time Sink in the worst possible way.

They created an interesting, FUN fight, but HORRIBLE loot system.

Yoshida-san's "excuse" that "they're looking into it" to fix this, and that they need time to develop a "Need or Greed" System like WoW, is a joke.

Dzemael Darkhold and all of our regular Monster Killing Loot System works JUST FINE: Let the Ifrit Rewards drop in the Common Loot Pool so at least we can PASS it to other members that need it.

That system already exists in FF XIV. Did they magically delete the ability to have U/U Items not drop in Loot Pool?

Instead, they had some content for 1.19, but needed time to stretch it out for Patch 1.20. What better way than to have horrible Time Sinks like this Ifrit Loot System? It's very obvious.

One of the best players on our server quit FF XIV yesterday: Literally sick of battling Ifrit and the Beastmen Fortress Drop Rates & Loot Systems after clearing them for their friends for the ~200th time (he's beaten Hyper Ifrit over 200 times, helping friends).

This needs to be fixed, but I'm sure SE will continue to just say they'll need time to develop their WoW "Need or Greed" System...

I seriously hope Evil / Dark Moogle and Garuda (and future Dungeon Raids) are *NOT* like this broken Ifrit Loot System.

Please Yoshida-san, don't ruin the hard work you've done up until now.

Thanks.

But this isn't something that's being neglected, they said on the last interview that they're working on fixing it, and soon, not 2.0 or later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

kill a hard boss and get nothing? happened in FFXI all the time, nothing new, it sucks, but it can happen

---

All too true.

This was mainly because stupidly low drop percentages that in the end had a very marginal effect. We're talking about 0.5% chances of things dropping- and even if that wasn't the case, let's face it. Anyone who has ever played FFXI and camped an NM will tell you that it really feels that way sometimes, and by sometimes, I mean most of the time.

Look, I'm all for working for that amazing piece of gear. But you know what? If I'm going to spend a stupid amount of time camping an NM or gathering mats to have something made then I want more than a marginal increase in stats. 1% haste is not worth spending weeks or months working toward something.

In fact, you couldn't see the effect that awesome Haste + 1% belt had without a parser. You couldn't see it if it was 2% or 3%... You couldn't really tell with 5% but at least it was a solid number. You would have have a lot of haste + gear in order to be able to tell the difference as a player without using a program.

To some extent I do agree with the OP, it's ok to give us things that we can achieve reasonably quickly... but on the other hand, if SE wants to keep abysmal drop rates then make that piece of gear worth the abysmal drop rate, not a marginal increase. In my opinion, SE spends so much time worried about not breaking the game that they end up being too conservative.

Bah, but really. I hope the NM's in this game don't follow suit of FFXI droprates. It made me hate them with a fiery passion of a thousand suns.

What baffles me is why this even needs fixing in the first place. In other words, why they even thought this was a good idea to replace the Darkhold system. A child could see the flaws in this system and it's mind boggling why someone didn't say "Um, yeah this isn't going to work and everyone's gonna get pissed off" in the conceptual phase of development.

@Kiara, who quit?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi Keftenk (and to Yoshida-san),

Excellent post!

I totally agree, and it's *very* obvious Yoshida-san and his team did this as a stall tactic and BAD Time Sink in the worst possible way.

They created an interesting, FUN fight, but HORRIBLE loot system.

Yoshida-san's "excuse" that "they're looking into it" to fix this, and that they need time to develop a "Need or Greed" System like WoW, is a joke.

Dzemael Darkhold and all of our regular Monster Killing Loot System works JUST FINE: Let the Ifrit Rewards drop in the Common Loot Pool so at least we can PASS it to other members that need it.

That system already exists in FF XIV. Did they magically delete the ability to have U/U Items not drop in Loot Pool?

Instead, they had some content for 1.19, but needed time to stretch it out for Patch 1.20. What better way than to have horrible Time Sinks like this Ifrit Loot System? It's very obvious.

One of the best players on our server quit FF XIV yesterday: Literally sick of battling Ifrit and the Beastmen Fortress Drop Rates & Loot Systems after clearing them for their friends for the ~200th time (he's beaten Hyper Ifrit over 200 times, helping friends).

This needs to be fixed, but I'm sure SE will continue to just say they'll need time to develop their WoW "Need or Greed" System...

I seriously hope Evil / Dark Moogle and Garuda (and future Dungeon Raids) are *NOT* like this broken Ifrit Loot System.

Please Yoshida-san, don't ruin the hard work you've done up until now.

Thanks.

---

I think you make some awesome points, you and the OP.

Honestly, I think Yoshida is relying a little too much on WoW as a model. I mean really... how many people can say that he's not treading on thin ice with "Turning FFXIV into a WoW Clone" bit now that they have heard that he is specifically looking at WoW?
He should be looking more to FFXI and then WoW for the things that work and then changing them to fit FFXIV.

I don't think that we need a need/greed looting system. I always found it kind of stupid in WoW. It's like, really? I want that piece of gear/item so I'm gonna loot need for it anyway.

FFXI had a solid enough looting system, it did the job well enough. Out of all of the things they could have fixed in FFXI I never thought "Wow.. the looting system really sucks."

I wanted them to fix lfg for a long time. I wanted them to let us see our food stats. I also wanted them to increase movement speed. I didn't want them to fix the looting or the search function.

But yeah... stupidly low drop rates suck, they suck even more when the loot system fail epically.
I'm glad people are mentioning this and hopefully it gets fixed soon. ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anapingofness

I don't think that we need a need/greed looting system. I always found it kind of stupid in WoW. It's like, really? I want that piece of gear/item so I'm gonna loot need for it anyway.

---

It's just has more functionality for those people who want/need it.

Mostly it's for people who play within an LS or amongst ppl they know, so they can allocate drops fairly.

Amongst pick up groups, everyone's gonna loot "need" anyway. You can think of FF11's system is a "need and greed" system where everyone picks "need" by default.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

What baffles me is why this even needs fixing in the first place. In other words, why they even thought this was a good idea to replace the Darkhold system. A child could see the flaws in this system and it's mind boggling why someone didn't say "Um, yeah this isn't going to work and everyone's gonna get pissed off" in the conceptual phase of development.

---

Hi Renta,

Well said. Even at the highest conceptual phase - especially with Yoshida-san saying he wants to cater to more than just "hardcore" - they should've nixed this horrible Time Sink idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

@Kiara, who quit?!

---

Big Totoro. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

What baffles me is why this even needs fixing in the first place. In other words, why they even thought this was a good idea to replace the Darkhold system. A child could see the flaws in this system and it's mind boggling why someone didn't say "Um, yeah this isn't going to work and everyone's gonna get pissed off" in the conceptual phase of development.

---

I'm guessing the employees who didn't speak up are the same ones who were extremely quiet at launch....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kiara

Big Totoro. :(

---

Don't know him very well, but saw him everywhere, hes a staple of Kashuan! Sad indeed.

As bad as this system is....
I'd even be satisfied if the drop rate was modified based on what you have already gotten.

For instance:

7% drop rate initially (1% chance of each weapon)
once you have a weapon, it is removed from the possible loot
after 3 drops you have 8% drop rate with each of the remaining 4 weapons being 2% of that
5 drops and the last 2 weapons are 3% each for a 6% drop rate
after 6 drops, the 7th weapon should be like a 4% drop rate

Not perfect but would be better than what we have

The Ifrit fight is fine and drop rates are right where they should be for the 15 min re-entry time. Even HNMs in 11 which popped once a day had drop rates in the 1-5% range (riddle,d.ring) Dynamis drops also come to mind (rdm/thf). Get over the fact that you may have to run a fight more than once and get dup items. SE don't touch these fights or loot systems please. If my mid-core ls can beat Ifrit he is not that hard to nerf him.

I think people are ok with the drop rates (~2% for an individual weapon) but are not OK with how the loot is placed directly into your inventory and you have no option of giving it to someone else.

Funny how they want this game to be casual, but they can't get something as simple are drop rates correct. Don't anyone say "Oh nooo they want this game to be both~" Get real that will never happen. The game will have to choose one side. It sucks though since SE doesn't understand what casual means. I personally am not casual, but SE is pretty knocked up when it comes to making gaimez.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greencactaur

Funny how they want this game to be casual, but they can't get something as simple are drop rates correct. Don't anyone say "Oh nooo they want this game to be both~" Get real that will never happen. The game will have to choose one side. It sucks though since SE doesn't understand what casual means. I personally am not casual, but SE is pretty knocked up when it comes to making gaimez.

---

there's been very few people in here saying anything about the drop rates themselves. the problem is when you get something chances are you get an item you already have and cannot pass it on to someone else in the party that needs it.

Keftenk should update his first thread and post in big large fonts so people can read this isn't about drop rate....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinheart

Keftenk should update his first thread and post in big large fonts so people can read this isn't about drop rate....

---

definitely agree. Please do it Keftenk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinheart

Keftenk should update his first thread and post in big large fonts so people can read this isn't about drop rate....

---

The problem is the original post does seem very drop rate oriented.....
When duplicates really are the big issue

All that would happen if the drops were is that everyone would easily be able to get the weapon they want, meaning everyone will end up with the same equipment for their class, removing any individuality or sense of achievement in getting the gear you want and people would start complaining that there's no content again because everything is completed so quickly and easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

The problem is the original post does seem very drop rate oriented.....
When duplicates really are the big issue

---

it is true he keeps mentioning the drop rates themselves, but repeatedly mentions the duplicates that were thrown down. it shows they got 10 blades for example, but of those 10 blades 5 were dropped because they were duplicates. that, in itself, would make the fight seem to be twice as effective for getting drops if they could be passed to others. they go farther into it to mention getting the cane over and over again. that was why i mentioned the duplicates more than the drop rates was because even though the drop rates was what was mentioned they are complaining more on the not getting items and when they do it's something they already have and being forced to drop them.

i may have been reading it differently, but i was just looking over it and i seen more of an issue of people getting and dropping items consistently that makes the other people feel as though they are not getting anything out of the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

it is true he keeps mentioning the drop rates themselves, but repeatedly mentions the duplicates that were thrown down. it shows they got 10 blades for example, but of those 10 blades 5 were dropped because they were duplicates. that, in itself, would make the fight seem to be twice as effective for getting drops if they could be passed to others. they go farther into it to mention getting the cane over and over again. that was why i mentioned the duplicates more than the drop rates was because even though the drop rates was what was mentioned they are complaining more on the not getting items and when they do it's something they already have and being forced to drop them.

i may have been reading it differently, but i was just looking over it and i seen more of an issue of people getting and dropping items consistently that makes the other people feel as though they are not getting anything out of the fight.

---

I agree...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinheart

Keftenk should update his first thread and post in big large fonts so people can read this isn't about drop rate....

---

Like that? <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keftenk

Like that? <3

---

Looks good. It's a shame we have to draw it out with crayon in giant letters for some people, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Looks good. It's a shame we have to draw it out with crayon in giant letters for some people, though.

---

Shouldn't the goal always be to be as clear and concise as possible anyway?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

Shouldn't the goal always be to be as clear and concise as possible anyway?

---

My fault, I figured the data would speak for itself. Guess only about a quarter of people even looked at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keftenk

My fault, I figured the data would speak for itself. Guess only about a quarter of people even looked at it.

---

No... Your point is very VERY valid.... I just wanted to make everyone knew you weren't referring to the actual drop rates

I would like to see what they do with the new need/greed system and reflect on that data before making any comments thus far. I agree with a lot of the points concerning duplications and the loot system. However I'm wondering if this is something not already being looked at and addressed, but not being detailed yet.

That said, the work done for the post is appreciated on my end, and I hope will continue. I think if we can provide some concise points as to what is going on and what we're looking for, we can help develop the game in a direction that will be pleasing for everyone.

Thumbs up!