No sense of fear in this game.

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Originally Posted by Blackcanary

Well when I stated the delevel I was using that as an example of fear from another game.

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Deleveling is a shitty mechanic imo.

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Now what SE could do is to bring back Mobs that attack on scent, sight and smell. They could easily do that in the next expsion pack or even in a patch update.

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This is already a thing, just most people don't realize it. Most mobs won't aggro on you if you're out of their LoS, but there are exceptions. Walk past a Mudpuppy/Ninki Nanka sometime. Seriously, walk right in front of its face. They can't see you, so they only attack if they can hear you (i.e. you are running near them). I think Morbols and a few other things act the same way. Mobs in the Diadem aggro on you when you get in range whether they can see or hear you or not, so arguably they aggro to your smell.

I think people need to remove the rose-tinted glasses.

Aside from the initial nostalgia factor, the things people are asking for from the days of yore would do nothing but annoy me today.

While I would not mind tougher dungeons, the thing we need to remember is that the enemies outside of instances need to be able to be soloed by any job. Some jobs just have an easier time surviving, like tanks and healers, so it may seem like the mobs are too easy. Others, like blm, would be at a disadvantage if the mobs were stronger and got a boost in hp. Blms do have some shields, but in general, we are squishy and have no viable way to heal. Physick only heals 450 hp out of my 15,000 hp, for example (potions aren't much better). Blms survive because we can burst down targets quickly. If there are multiple enemies that are all tougher to take down, then some of us would spend quite a bit of time tanking the floor.

Basically, I do not want to be forced to join a party just to walk outside the city walls.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

When you first start out you are just a sprout and have a fear of the world. You are weak,but eventually you progress through the zones getting stronger. This is to show you when you reach level 60 that you have grown stronger and no longer fear the world because you are stronger than the majority of the mobs.

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Ok maybe you felt like that but I didn't I was in the beata and then when u first started out there was no sense of fear.

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Originally Posted by KeiranOlive

While I would not mind tougher dungeons, the thing we need to remember is that the enemies outside of instances need to be able to be soloed by any job.

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In fact, they need to be able to be killed by NPC.

The MSQ showed that, by yourself, you can wreck a whole squad of Templars. How would Falcon's Nest survive if any of the coerthas monster was a threat to you ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In fact, they need to be able to be killed by NPC.

The MSQ showed that, by yourself, you can wreck a whole squad of Templars. How would Falcon's Nest survive if any of the coerthas monster was a threat to you ?

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Oh! Imagine that the cities would live or die based on the help from adventurers and that the crafters would have to rebuild them. Sounds kinda awesome tbh

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Oh! Imagine that the cities would live or die based on the help from adventurers and that the crafters would have to rebuild them. Sounds kinda awesome tbh

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Yeah, it can be, but it would be a totally different game.
I don't know how many people would really like to have that burden.

In FFXI, after the hype was gone, no one would give a damn about NPC from Al Zhabi being kidnapped, except when it was the Taruporter :p

Need PVP servers for a sense of fear. Nothing like the experience from WoW where you find your character lying dead after coming back from afk :p.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yeah, it can be, but it would be a totally different game.

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I think it could work even here. Not for all the cities and camps of course, but there could be one or two in the expansion that would work like that.

A little strategy game where the city is under an attack and the players have to keep it going by doing events and crafting supplies to boost defenses.

As long as the rewards were worth it, giving end game currency and scripts/materials etc., players would be doing it.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

And you lose materials, of course.

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If you chose to carry on crafting in a market area knowing an A rank could suddenly appear you'd deserve to lose that HQ i170 BSM main tool

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Originally Posted by Azper

I think people need to remove the rose-tinted glasses.

Aside from the initial nostalgia factor, the things people are asking for from the days of yore would do nothing but annoy me today.

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Then don't participate in it. We already established it would be optional. And it's not about nostalgia, it's about the fact there is nothing remotely risky on FFXIV. Some people get enjoyment out of taking a risk.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Some people get enjoyment out of taking a risk.

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You're right, "some people"
But it's difficult to make an open world content that catters only to "some people", especially when it's the more hardcore part of the community.

Casual Friendly Fantasy XIV are not going to be harder for anyone.

Dungeons/Raids are a joke the only "hard"content are Extreme/Savage stuff.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Some people get enjoyment out of taking a risk.

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And...what exactly is stopping you from just setting rules for yourself to make things more risky?

Seems like the best solution if it's meant to be truly and entirely optional because it's not even the game that's enforcing the rules, it's the individual player. You can even emulate random chances with online calculators easily, or just type /random and discard the amount of gil/items you set as potential loss for yourself. Linkshells and FCs allow for like-minded players to come together, too.

I mean, that's how roleplay works and it works quite well. The fact that it's not enforced by the game doesn't diminish the enjoyment gotten from it either.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And...what exactly is stopping you from just setting rules for yourself to make things more risky?

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It is only my opinion, but that kinda seems stupid and masochistic. If it is entirely optional most of the people are not gonna bother, because it puts you at disadventage in comparison to the players who do not follow the same rules.

So there either has to be some content that enforces that by game design or server type that does it. Otherwise idk why would anyone do that. ^^

Also, there are sick and disabled people who play the game and pay their sub and who want the game not to be too hard to play. Like I said, games like FF XI are dead and outdated, and FF XIV is a modern one.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

In FFXI[, ...] Getting past enemy lines wasn't just something you stormed through like a bull, you had to be sneaky which added to the risk and the enjoyment.

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Sneaky is the word, sure, but only because in 95%+ of areas, you'd just cast a spell or use an ability/item to gain the Sneak effect (and sometimes also the Invisible effect) and could then completely ignore all the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

This is already a thing, just most people don't realize it. Most mobs won't aggro on you if you're out of their LoS, but there are exceptions. Walk past a Mudpuppy/Ninki Nanka sometime. Seriously, walk right in front of its face. They can't see you, so they only attack if they can hear you (i.e. you are running near them). I think Morbols and a few other things act the same way. Mobs in the Diadem aggro on you when you get in range whether they can see or hear you or not, so arguably they aggro to your smell.

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Yeah, FFXIV definitely still has the sight/sound distinction. In addition to what's said here, you can walk right up behind something that's aggressive based on sight, all the way up to its hit box, and it'll ignore you. Try to do that with a morbol though and it'll attack right away.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It is only my opinion, but that kinda seems stupid and masochistic. If it is entirely optional most of the people are not gonna bother, because it puts you at disadventage in comparison to the players who do not follow the same rules.

So there either has to be some content that enforces that by game design or server type that does it. Otherwise idk why would anyone do that. ^^

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Well, she said some people get enjoyment from it, so...yeah. I was assuming the enjoyment comes from the thing itself, rather than other people suffering through it as well (or worse, inflicting suffering upon them!)

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Originally Posted by Korbash

Also, there are sick and disabled people who play the game and pay their sub and who want the game not to be too hard to play.

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What don't people understand about this content being optional? Savage exists but people don't have to play it. Btw, I am sick. It doesn't mean I don't like a challenge. Plus this isn't even about difficultly, it's about risk.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And...what exactly is stopping you from just setting rules for yourself to make things more risky?

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This is kind of silly, the idea of risk is enjoyable because you are risking things for a greater reward, not to just discard your gil.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, she said some people get enjoyment from it, so...yeah. I was assuming the enjoyment comes from the thing itself, rather than other people suffering through it as well (or worse, inflicting suffering upon them!)

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Optional optional optional.

well don't use your godly platemail of divine protection +99 then.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

well don't use your godly platemail of divine protection +99 then.

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But the game should cater to ME!

Morbols at black shroud somwhere loll and those at revenants toll. Their famous for bad breath right? XD

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I don't see why this is so important that the world around you is fearsome.
Remember that people are supposed to live there, they're supposed to travel around the world, trade goods, or even built cities.

There is no way San d'Oria could exist so near from Davoi, when you know there are gigantic orcs powerful enough to kill the whole city guard and that thrives on destruction.
There is no way you could provide food if you need to be a professional adventurer to slay a mere rabbit out of your walls...

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Then explain any /beckon levequest or escort FATE. The world is dangerous, lore-wise. We adventurers are just even moreso dangerous.
Overall I'd like to see the world get up to our level and cause us trouble.

Yeah, I'd sure love to be in a life and death situation everyday just to do a daily or just walking to another town.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Yeah, I'd sure love to be in a life and death situation everyday just to do a daily or just walking to another town.

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Are you opposed to optional content you don't have to go near?

Well sure we can go with that.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

This is kind of silly, the idea of risk is enjoyable because you are risking things for a greater reward, not to just discard your gil.

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But that then means you do not enjoy the risk, you just enjoy rewards and want more of them >_>
This statement turns the risk from an independent good in its own right into a means to an end and thus, from a good that's worth pursuing into an evil that's but necessary as justification for why you should get more.

It is hard to support the implementation of 'risk' given such circumstances. If even a supporter of risk admits risk has no innate value and derives it all from the rewards...yeah.

I just wanna say that deleveling is a really bad idea. The only reason it existed in XI was to get us to play more, and equipment degradation serves the same exact purpose in this game. It gets us to have to earn gil in some way or another to keep our gear maintained. It's a better implementation.

That said, I also think adding areas that are PVP-only is not the way to go either. If you look at Ultima Online as an example that did this, you see that it just ruined the game. The PVP areas simply become places that everyone avoids.

I personally support full blown PVP servers as an option. Merge those tiny servers to save "space" and give us servers where we can attack others. They could limit it to battle classes even. Tera does it exactly the way I think it should be handled.

At the very least give us an option for 1v1 duels in the open world.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Sneaky is the word, sure, but only because in 95%+ of areas, you'd just cast a spell or use an ability/item to gain the Sneak effect (and sometimes also the Invisible effect) and could then completely ignore all the mobs.

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Well, sure. Except both of those abilities could wear off in short notice (they had a random duration), forcing you to seek cover to recast with little time to spare. Sneak and Invis was certainly not a panacea. That's before mentioning the magic aggro mobs. Remember those? Casting sneak or invis spells would net you aggro from some of the nastiest enemies in the game. Items were limited in the number you could carry, and being a consumable it would cost you gil to stay well stocked.

All that, before I even mention true sighted mobs who could see through your invisibility regardless, and those chigoes which weren't obvious until they were already beating down on you!

The point really is that in ARR even you're in the basic gear for your level, there's almost no risk of dying unless you're overwhelmed by sheer numbers and that only happens if you're careless or new to the mechanics. Heck, at least in early levels there were linking mobs (shown by the connecting lines when targeting). By the time you hit level 30 they're all but non-existent! I challenge you to name even five mobs in Heavensward zones that link with their fellows! Most don't care that you're beating up their friends.

The devs made the overworld boring. There's a handful of Fates that no one cares about and that's about it. The mobs that inhabit it are just window dressing, there to annoy you while you're travelling, and a handful used for quests or material drops. That's literally it. Once you're at a certain level you won't visit 90% of the areas in the game, because there's no reason to. These days there's more life in a mortuary than there is in the 2.0 areas.

what would be the reward for this optional content i wonder...?

I have enough anxiety as it is, so NO THANK YOU.

I still get flashbacks of trying to get back to Kazham after exp parties in the jungle from XI!

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It is only my opinion, but that kinda seems stupid and masochistic. If it is entirely optional most of the people are not gonna bother, because it puts you at disadventage in comparison to the players who do not follow the same rules.

So there either has to be some content that enforces that by game design or server type that does it. Otherwise idk why would anyone do that. ^^

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They'd do it for this mysterious thing called

fun

If people truly want fear from a video game, then try out Dwarf Fortress. Just wait until your master stonemason gets into a "mood" but can't find all the necessary supplies he needs. Then you'll know true fear. And "fun" too.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

But that then means you do not enjoy the risk, you just enjoy rewards and want more of them >_>

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No, it doesn't. There's just a huge difference between gambling things with risk for the chance of earning something and throwing away your gil for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It's not so black and white as you're making it. If they gave random rewards for doing very little, I wouldn't be interested in the content because it would be boring. It's not JUST about the rewards.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

No, it doesn't.

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Yes it does.

Enjoyment is an intrinsic reward. If you enjoy risk, the risk alone would be rewarding for you.
People will be willing to do something if the reward is greater than the cost/effort.
Policing/Creating risk oneself requires a very low amount of effort/has a very low cost.

That logically means that if you are not inclined, the innate enjoyment of risk needs to be very low, because it does not even outweigh the very low cost of policing yourself. Therefore, you need additional rewards to compensate. Simple logic and the reason why we need rewards for all our beloved repetitive tasks - as compensation for the constantly decreasing innate enjoyment during repetition. This is also why Savage is so unpopular - large cost but very small innate value plus no overwhelming compensation. I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Enjoyment is an intrinsic reward. If you enjoy risk, the risk alone would be rewarding for you.

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So you'd rush into a beastmen stronghold even if the monsters gave you no Xp whatsoever, with no quest to do there and nothing to gain except being killed, just of the thrill of battle ?

I really doubt that.

And the community, as a whole clearly won't enjoy it, since they always focus on the fastest way to gain the most reward.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So you'd rush into a beastmen stronghold even if the monsters gave you no Xp whatsoever, with no quest to do there and nothing to gain except being killed.

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I know I'd be one of the first people in there trying to map every nook and crany of the place.

Part of the fun is exploration that isn't handed to you on a platter, bits of lore and story hidden in the back corners of the most dangerous reaches of the realm. Amazing sights to behold after sneaking your way past a veritable mob of enemies who could slaughter you with a mere look.

Also why wouldn't they implement usefull things into these zones? Group based quests for key story items, god forbid we cooperate outside of a instanced duty finder though right?


In FFXI the beastmen strongholds and other extremly dangerous areas were used for many things.

• Trasure Coffers for unique loot
• Notorious Monster hangouts
• Place to seat the most powerfull leader of the tribe who was actually something to be feared.
• Entrance to instanced fights, think of it like doing your dungeon run and only going into a instance to fight the boss instead of the entire place being one big tube you get funndled into.

Among various quests, main story and side quest alike. The game gave people reasons to be in these areas and all the tools to accomplish their goals, that's part of being a game, having challenges.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And the community, as a whole clearly won't enjoy it, since they always focus on the fastest way to gain the most reward.

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If the developers designed everything around this communities mindset we wouldn't have alot of things.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Babble simply stating "make your own risk"

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Risk and reward in video games is genuinely different from being a daredevil (which is basically what your saying those who want risks are). When players decide "Hey! I'm gonna do a no master sword run in Legend of Zelda!" That's creating a challenge of your own, being daring, its not the game offering it to you. Anyone can do that in any game. Its a shame people have to be specific around here to run into people like you just to knock down an idea because it'd make your fingers hurt or take too much of your time playing an MMO. Either that or the obvious trolls roaming the forums.

~Risk in battles and areas made by the dev team members should be challenging to the player. The game currently is very merciful to us (aka treating us like babies) allowing ventures into areas of highlevel mobs you can simply run away from or avoid all together. Triumphing in one challenge should reward the player with another or an item for they can use to overcome another challenge. Currently the game does neither of these as the challenge is in the players vigilance and time management (Tomes and weekly limits) rewarding the player with requirements to progress through group content the players are familiar with. Savage modes and extreme modes are challenging, sadly they hold nothing of value other than glamour since their is no stat diversity or abilities from other items and the item levels are nothing greater than the gear you get with tomes. We may have Sephirot EX weapons but there's really no reason getting them if you can beat just about any dungeon or challenge with the tome weapons making the reward lack luster in light of the challenge.~

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Originally Posted by Jynx

• Treasure Coffers for unique loot

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Reward

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Originally Posted by Jynx

• Notorious Monster hangouts

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Reward

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Originally Posted by Jynx

• Place to seat the most powerfull leader of the tribe who was actually something to be feared.

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Who drop great loot, so...reward

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Originally Posted by Jynx

• Entrance to instanced fights, think of it like doing your dungeon run and only going into a instance to fight the boss instead of the entire place being one big tube you get funndled into.

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Instanced fight that you do for loot, so...reward

So basically, the risk alone is not rewarding enough.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

If the developers designed everything around this communities mindset we wouldn't have alot of things.

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Everyhting no, but you can be sure than no open world content will catter to only a small fraction of the community.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

When players decide "Hey! I'm gonna do a no master sword run in Legend of Zelda!" That's creating a challenge of your own, being daring, its not the game offering it to you. Anyone can do that in any game.

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What the game could and should do is increase the tome, gils and Xp reward when you select the minimum ilvl sync.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

This is also why Savage is so unpopular - large cost but very small innate value plus no overwhelming compensation. I rest my case.

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Savage and content with a risk factor are two completely different things and both enjoyable in completely different ways, so no.. you don't rest your case. You're comparing things which have barely any similarities whatsoever.

People enjoy gambling, but would they go to a casino and gamble all of their money for no reward?

It's not "you either enjoy risk or the reward". It's a combination of both. I don't know why this is so difficult to comprehend. With your logic, let's just remove dungeons and raids altogether and hand out free tomes and loot because all people want is the "reward".

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Snip

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This. People come on here demanding people be specific with what they want before they'll even consider giving you a proper response and then when we do, it gets shot down with "create your own risk blah blah blah" or "you obviously don't want risk you just want rewards!"

It's like people are afraid of SE adding this content with rewards because individuals aren't interested in risky content and don't want to miss out. It's even funnier that we've established this can be completely optional and people are still trying to argue against it for whatever reason they can think of.