Tanks are still taking STR accessories.

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Originally Posted by SeleneFatalis

There is somebody that I came across on IG (If you don't know, there's a huge FFXIV community there!) and he is i219 with all crafted gear, got full fending set, and just melded crit and det onto it, and noticed his DPS was MUCH higher than it was when STR tanking was king. So there's something to think about. Best of both worlds!

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Doubt it. I'm 219, Seph weapon, 15 STR melded to each accessory with a decent amount of overmelds and I'm still doing less than I did before the patch in STR gear.

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Originally Posted by SeleneFatalis

There is somebody that I came across on IG (If you don't know, there's a huge FFXIV community there!) and he is i219 with all crafted gear, got full fending set, and just melded crit and det onto it, and noticed his DPS was MUCH higher than it was when STR tanking was king. So there's something to think about. Best of both worlds!

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Originally Posted by Launched

Doubt it. I'm 219, Seph weapon, 15 STR melded to each accessory with a decent amount of overmelds and I'm still doing less than I did before the patch in STR gear.

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Pretty much. You are not going to be able to do that kind of DPS from the overall AP decrease.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

I think there's diminishing return when stacking crit, my SMN used to have about 800 crits but rarely procs, about the same when my crits was about 550 - 600. Which is now I rather be stacking spell speed now on SMN which contributes to my actual dps rather than stacking a bunch of useless amount of crit.

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There is no DR on critical hit rate, the rate changes as you level up.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

In Dc universe online, crit was divided into two categories: Crit chance (critical hits occur more often) and Crit magnitude ( critical hits did more damage.)

I believe that crit in our game was changed such that everyone has a base crit rate and any additional crit from gear/abilities/melds will only raise the magnitude, not the chance.

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This is wrong. Don't try to base it on different games.

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Originally Posted by KrenianKandos

The problem is this: You will never know the situation where that 2300 health may come in handy either because you miss a stun, you get hit from an AoE you couldn't avoid for x reason or for any other part.

The x amount of % that adding strength over vitality in sacrifice to your health pool really doesn't matter if you die. People may not think an extra 2k health is good, but to me, it's an extra cushion that could let me survive a big blast that normally I wouldn't survive due to tank buster + extra hit at the end.

I'm still not buying the whole STR > VIT argument right now in 3.2. Sure, one can squeeze out more DPS by adding strength gear, but the minute increase in DPS is negligible. It really is.

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The thing is, you do know when you'll need that extra HP. The answer is: Never. You've already got your cushion, more than your cushion.

There is no Strength / Vitality argument anymore. So why is everyone looking at this from a main stat/DPS point of view? They saw to it to make any sort of DPS benefit from one stat over the other was null. Tanks already have plenty of HP and don't need more to survive mechanics, they saw to this too. They don't want tanks to do DPS, your job is to hit things in the face and get hit in the face. The rest of your numbers don't matter and have been thrown out of the window in all of their calculations (which in my opinion makes the job less fun).

This is now a secondary stat argument, which will benefit you more.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

There is no DR on critical hit rate, the rate changes as you level up.



This is wrong. Don't try to base it on different games.

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So does it raise both chance and magnitude now?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

So does it raise both chance and magnitude now?

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Stop trying to apply concepts from other games to this one. Read the tooltip.

2,300 HP is useless at all times in exchange for .5% more DPS?

Guess all those times I dipped into triple digits for a few moments I shoulda just died instead.

We're not talking about staggeringly more DPS like how STR accessories were before. It IS a very minor DPS boost now. A cushion for mistakes is not worthless. Unless you can claim you and the other 7 people in your party have never once made a mistake, you cannot claim extra HP wiggle room is useless.

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

2,300 HP is useless at all times in exchange for .5% more DPS?

Guess all those times I dipped into triple digits for a few moments I shoulda just died instead.

We're not talking about staggeringly more DPS like how STR accessories were before. It IS a very minor DPS boost now. A cushion for mistakes is not worthless. Unless you can claim you and the other 7 people in your party have never once made a mistake, you cannot claim extra HP wiggle room is useless.

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Wow, people are really still hung up on that DPS thing aren't they?

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Wow, people are really still hung up on that DPS thing aren't they?

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They're just having a hard time understanding why you're giving up vit in order to slightly increase the chance that sometimes you'll maybe get a crit equilibrium that probably isn't even as high as warriors could get before 3.2.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

They're just having a hard time understanding why you're giving up vit in order to slightly increase the chance that sometimes you'll maybe get a crit equilibrium that probably isn't even as high as warriors could get before 3.2.

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Giving up 2300 HP for a slightly better chance at getting about 2300 HP more from a crit Equilibrium is just unfathomable, I just assumed I misunderstood.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

So does it raise both chance and magnitude now?

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Yes it does.

Critical Hit Chance

((CRT-354)/(858*5))+0.05

Critical Hit Damage

((CRT-354)/(858*5))+1.45

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

2,300 HP is useless at all times in exchange for .5% more DPS?

Guess all those times I dipped into triple digits for a few moments I shoulda just died instead.

We're not talking about staggeringly more DPS like how STR accessories were before. It IS a very minor DPS boost now. A cushion for mistakes is not worthless. Unless you can claim you and the other 7 people in your party have never once made a mistake, you cannot claim extra HP wiggle room is useless.

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A .5% is SO tiny you won't even notice it that's how much of a difference it is a .5% chance isn't going to change or conflict with anything. I'd rather take the 2300 hp instead of the .5% hp because it's always there.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Despite SE's efforts tanks are still taking Strength accessories. By making STR and VIT equal in regards to attack power, secondary stats are the deciding factor.

Fending accessories are filled with parry and accuracy, both lackluster secondary stats.

Slaying accessories have the desired secondary stats that tanks want to increase their damage.

The only real way to solve this is one of two ways. Make parry worthwhile or make Strength lower than Vitality in terms of damage.

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Or option 3: realise str tanks were never really a problem in dungeons and casual content and this was a very very unneeded change.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

The thing is, you do know when you'll need that extra HP. The answer is: Never. You've already got your cushion, more than your cushion.

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So you can accurately tell me when in Midas, when he does his tankbuster, how much health he'll take off PLUS the next hit, to the exact digit, so it allows you to know EXACTLY the amount of health required, and then expect that this is always the case 100%?

Not that I don't believe you on this, but it's pretty far fetched; you cannot assume every time it will do 100% the same damage. You can ballpark it but you have unknowns; it happens when you play with other people that may not do the required mechanics 100% of the time.

You're never 100% certain of the number. 2.3k health adds a buffer for you to deal with the "OH SH&T" moments. While you can live with near perfection in the case of health, most of us don't like the idea of leaving RNG hit that sweet number the whole time. Period.

It's not worth it. At all. The DPS increase you get from doing STR accessories is negligible at best. I'll stick with the cushion over the paltry increase in stats, and add DPS related stats on my accessories that still give me said cushion.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Stop trying to apply concepts from other games to this one. Read the tooltip.

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Taken from the full release Patch 3.0 notes here
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...98c204c6199e5a

"Critical hit rate now affects damage dealt with a critical strike."

The way it's worded made me think the previous crit ways had been abandoned, sort of like White mages higher % stoneskin and Scholars % based Lustrate.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Yes it does.

Critical Hit Chance

((CRT-354)/(858*5))+0.05

Critical Hit Damage

((CRT-354)/(858*5))+1.45

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Ah, very nice that it raises both now. Thanks for this!

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Or option 3: realise str tanks were never really a problem in dungeons and casual content and this was a very very unneeded change.

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I like option 3 here.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Or option 3: realise str tanks were never really a problem in dungeons and casual content and this was a very very unneeded change.

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Which wasn't why they changed STR tanks in the first place, they kinda sorta created these whole Fending accessories that a large amount of people didn't even use and instead tried to get Slaying, intended for MNK/DRG. Anyone who did STR tanking did so because it was optimal, but you have to take that extra leap to realize it was bad design. STR tanking should have never been a thing, it was ridiculously good and allowed you to push content much earlier than intended. They overlooked it for 2 years, we should be happy we even got away with it for this long.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Which wasn't why they changed STR tanks in the first place, they kinda sorta created these whole Fending accessories that a large amount of people didn't even use and instead tried to get Slaying, intended for MNK/DRG. Anyone who did STR tanking did so because it was optimal, but you have to take that extra leap to realize it was bad design. STR tanking should have never been a thing, it was ridiculously good and allowed you to push content much earlier than intended. They overlooked it for 2 years, we should be happy we even got away with it for this long.

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Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

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No. That is something only some of the players wanted. Others wanted to be incredibly tough. Quite a few players begrudgingly followed the strength meta even though they did not feel it was "right."

Rolling with it was also just going to make things worse and worse. They needed to do something in order fix it or the game was going to break in the future.

Strength Warriors were overmitigating because their self-heals were 25% to 30% stronger than intended throwing tank balance off.
The damage output and hp gaps between Vit and Str builds were making progression impossible to balance and they were growing.
Fending Accessories were being considered useless/trash drops and crafted accessories 60 ilevels below were considered semi BiS for tanks.

All of these problems and more needed to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

Giving up 2300 HP for a slightly better chance at getting about 2300 HP more from a crit Equilibrium is just unfathomable, I just assumed I misunderstood.

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Some ideas are good, some ideas are bad, and some are just...I don't even know how to describe this.

------
mit·i·ga·tion
ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.
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Healing is not mitigation.

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

The damage output and HP gaps of Vitality and Strength builds should have been taken into account when designing new fights.

Fending accessories were being considered useless/trash because they WERE useless trash with both their main and secondary stats. The new take on vitality is good, but the damage ratios were slung way too low. It'd be better to go with the old damage ratios, but remove strength from tanking gear.

The only class that needed to be fixed was Paladin, which could have easily be done by adjusting rates on shield oath.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

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Clemency is still shit, let's not pretend like a spell that costs 2/5 of your mana bar is anywhere close to broken, especially with how significantly it was nerfed with the tank adjustments.

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The damage output and HP gaps of Vitality and Strength builds should have been taken into account when designing new fights.

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They were.

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Fending accessories were being considered useless/trash because they WERE useless trash with both their main and secondary stats. The new take on vitality is good, but the damage ratios were slung way too low. It'd be better to go with the old damage ratios, but remove strength from tanking gear.

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The new ratios were done in order to create tiers of damage, which were incredibly blurry before 3.2.

You had MNK>BLM>DRG>NIN>SMN>BRD>=MCH>=WAR=DRK>PLD>[heals]
They shifted this slightly in 3.2 to widen the gap between the bottom DPS characters and tanks. So rather than having MCH deal ~1300 and WAR deal ~1200 on the same fight, those numbers would be more like 1300 and 950, making the disparity actually notable. I main Paladin on my alt and had been waiting for 3.2 to decide if I'd continue to or I'd go about gearing my DRG there, too. I decided on PLD. The decreased damage isn't an issue. All of the tank stances got increased enmity, and with a few minor upgrades, tanks are getting right back to where they were pre-3.2. Those same upgrades on the dps are shooting them up another 100-200 dps, keeping the huge buffer between them and tanks.


The "choice" still exists for Fending/Slaying accessories, yes, but they've done such a good job of making Fending more attractive than Slaying (both because Fending naturally has more main stat gains than Slaying and because Fending works twice - damage AND defense) that I don't think it's an issue. I haven't encountered a full slaying tank in DF yet. Hell, I'm the ONLY tank in DF I've seen using ANY (read: 1) Slaying accessories (since the 220 Fending Ring is h o t - g a r b a g e.)

So, in short:
http://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg


//EDIT: Decided to read back a few pages, because I'm a masochist.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

There is no DR on critical hit rate, the rate changes as you level up.

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Yes, there absolutely are diminishing returns for Critical Hit Rate.

The crit rate increases linearly. That is, x Crit will always give you an increase of precisely y% crit.

200 Crit gives you ~5% crit rate. If you have 1000 Crit, you already have a base 20% crit rate. Increasing that to 1200 bumps you to ~25% crit rate. That's an increase of 25%. (25/20 = 1.25). This means, in case this is going over your head, that if you go from 1000 Crit to 1200 Crit, you will see, on average, 25% more crits. 1/4 of all of your previous non-crits would be crits, on average.

If, however, you have 800 Crit, and you add 200 Crit to bump to 1000, you go from 15% to 20%. This is an increase of 33%. (20/15 = 1.33333). This means you will be getting a crit on 1/3 of all previous non-crit skills on average.

That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

The thing is, you do know when you'll need that extra HP. The answer is: Never. You've already got your cushion, more than your cushion.

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The question isn't whether or not you need it, the question is "Why would you sacrifice extra cushion that gives you marginally less attack power than the alternative for negligible gains in a secondary stat that will more than likely never be seen in any meaningful way?"

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

This is now a secondary stat argument, which will benefit you more.

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Yes, and your argument is as follows. Correct me if I'm wrong:
Trading 2400 health for 80 points of crit, because it will increase how often my Equilibrium crits, will increase my survivability much more than the 2400 base health would have; I don't need that extra health to survive any incoming damage in any content I am currently playing with my Warrior. All Warriors should be considering this.
( This argument directly involves the flat STR v VIT debate, since you address the health change, but I won't crucify you for that. c: )

And to that, I let you argue against yourself:

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Healing is not mitigation.

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Because, you're right. Bonus healing is NOT mitigation. Getting a lucky crit on your Equilibrium is super good, but let me actually break this down for you.

775 Crit = 15% Crit Rate
854 Crit = 17% Crit Rate

So, you will, on average, get crits on approximately 13% of the Equilibrium casts that you currently use for healing (which shouldn't be very many, let's be honest) that do not *already* crit. This of course doesn't take into account that Equilibrium and Internal Release share the same cooldown of 60s, so if you are doing what you say you are and trying to maximize your crits on Equilibrium, these two skills will always be used together, which makes these numbers significantly different.

You're now comparing 25% to 27% - and would now be getting a Crit on 8% of the Equilibrium casts that you use for healing which do not already Crit.


If you honestly think that this negligible increase in critical hits from a skill (which, by your own admission, is in no way an actual mitigation skill) will actually be more beneficial than the health you sacrifice to gain this much crit, you're kind of dumb.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

They were.

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Sorry, no. What they did was not take those into account at all. They reworked a system that wasn't broken in order to give Paladin a role in it.

No, the new ratios were not done to create tiers of damage.

They want you to play a role. They have stated this numerous times. They don't want healers to DPS so they took accuracy away (healers are melding accuracy onto their gear). They don't want tanks to DPS so they took damage away and said this is not a significant portion of their calculations for fights (no point in trying to gear for damage at all). They want DPS to DPS, yet they created a class that relies solely on procs for burst. So no, it isn't about tiers. It's about them trying to force a new way of playing a game onto a community (CUSTOMERS!) that doesn't want that.

Anyone who is gearing with just vitality in mind doesn't know what their numbers mean. When was the last time a Final Fantasy game had a clearly defined role for a character that you could not pick to min-max? When was it you had a class where you could not blur the lines of what it did?

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Yes, there absolutely are diminishing returns for Critical Hit Rate.

The crit rate increases linearly. That is, x Crit will always give you an increase of precisely y% crit.

200 Crit gives you ~5% crit rate. If you have 1000 Crit, you already have a base 20% crit rate. Increasing that to 1200 bumps you to ~25% crit rate. That's an increase of 25%. (25/20 = 1.25). This means, in case this is going over your head, that if you go from 1000 Crit to 1200 Crit, you will see, on average, 25% more crits. 1/4 of all of your previous non-crits would be crits, on average.

If, however, you have 800 Crit, and you add 200 Crit to bump to 1000, you go from 15% to 20%. This is an increase of 33%. (20/15 = 1.33333). This means you will be getting a crit on 1/3 of all previous non-crit skills on average.

That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

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No. No, this is not the definition of a diminishing return, especially when the Critical Hit Rate also increases the Critical Hit Damage/Heal.

A linear increase is a linear increase. A diminishing return is when you start to lose, or plateau as you gain more; this doesn't happen if you're going up at a flat rate.

I knew you would actively ignore every piece in my post that outwardly refutes your incorrect points. I don't know why I bother, sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Sorry, no. What they did was not take those into account at all. They reworked a system that wasn't broken in order to give Paladin a role in it.

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Warriors being +/- 1% from Bards and Machinists in Gordias is absolutely a problem, though? It's definitely broken?

I'm sorry you're upset that your numbers were nerfed, but none of the tanks were changed in any meaningful way outside of buffs (Grit/SwO/ShO no longer break combos). The damage change is absolutely meaningless, especially with the lower DPS requirements for new content. Tanks can still contribute, they just contribute less.

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No, the new ratios were not done to create tiers of damage.

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They absolutely were, though, and you literally *just* agreed to this in what you said next.

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They want you to play a role.

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T I E R S.

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They don't want healers to DPS so they took accuracy away (healers are melding accuracy onto their gear).

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T I E R S.

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They don't want tanks to DPS so they took damage away and said this is not a significant portion of their calculations for fights (no point in trying to gear for damage at all).

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T I E R S.

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They want DPS to DPS, yet they created a class that relies solely on procs for burst.

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If you rely on lucky procs for burst on Machinist, you're not playing the class right. Reload and Quick Reload are cooldowns you have to force procs when you want them for situations like Wildfire burst phases. Let's not blame the class because YOU can't play it.

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So no, it isn't about tiers. It's about them trying to force a new way of playing a game onto a community (CUSTOMERS!) that doesn't want that.

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If you don't like it, stop playing.
You're the only voice in this thread throwing a tantrum over these changes. The vast majority of tanks actually have brains and flat agree with the fact that tank damage was too high and the requirement to mitigate incoming damage consistently (read: tank stance) in fights was too low. They fixed this in 3.2.

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Anyone who is gearing with just vitality in mind doesn't know what their numbers mean. When was the last time a Final Fantasy game had a clearly defined role for a character that you could not pick to min-max? When was it you had a class where you could not blur the lines of what it did?

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I'm gearing with Vitality in mind. I'm getting (almost) exclusively fending accessories. I skipped the 220 Fending ring because it's absolute garbage (Parry/Sks nty) and am still running the 210 Gordian ring alongside my 220 Proto Midan Slaying ring.

So, like, stop changing your argument, basically? You were arguing one page ago about how "IT'S NOT DPS GUYS IT'S CRITS FOR EQUILIBRIUM WHICH I SHOULD BE MAINLY USING FOR TP" and now it's all about the deeps. Color me thoroughly confused.

(Also: FF1, FF3, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF9, FF12 IZJS, FF13 - not sure on the FF12 one, that's just the way I always read the info on it.)
(That's not including the Tactics series or any other non-numbered ones.)

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

No. No, this is not the definition of a diminishing return, especially when the Critical Hit Rate also increases the Critical Hit Damage/Heal.

A linear increase is a linear increase. A diminishing return is when you start to lose, or plateau as you gain more; this doesn't happen if you're going up at a flat rate.

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Okay. I apologize. I thought my explanation might go over your head, so let me explain it in simpler terms.

A diminishing return is a situation in which adding more of a stat gives you less gains from that stat as the base value from which you are increasing gets higher. Critical Hit Rate is a multiplicative stat. It increases at a linear rate. This creates a curve that plateaus (slowly) as you increase the value. The more Crit you have, the less effective gains you get from increasing the stat further. Yes, it also increases critical damage, and this absolutely helps to stem the curve and make it slower! It's absolutely true that Crit is higher weight than Det for every Job in the current meta (besides, maybe, Machinist) because we have not yet reached the point at which Critical Hit Rate stops being extremely effective per-point. We may never reach that point.

But to argue that this point being beyond the scope of numbers we'll ever reach means we're not approaching it the higher our Crit climbs is ignorant.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I knew you would actively ignore every piece in my post that outwardly refutes your incorrect points. I don't know why I bother, sometimes.


Warriors being +/- 1% from Bards and Machinists in Gordias is absolutely a problem, though? It's definitely broken?

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No, not broken. Players (customers!) want to play that way AND they can play that way effectively proves that it is not broken.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I'm sorry you're upset that your numbers were nerfed, but none of the tanks were changed in any meaningful way outside of buffs (Grit/SwO/ShO no longer break combos). The damage change is absolutely meaningless, especially with the lower DPS requirements for new content. Tanks can still contribute, they just contribute less.

They absolutely were, though, and you literally *just* agreed to this in what you said next.


T I E R S.


T I E R S.


T I E R S.

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This is going to sound like a troll now, but no, sorry.

DPS is the only damage they see, please review live letters.

Tank damage is not factored in. Healers should not be DPSing.

These are not tiers, these are roles. They are something they force upon it.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

You're the only voice in this thread throwing a tantrum over these changes. The vast majority of tanks actually have brains and flat agree with the fact that tank damage was too high and the requirement to mitigate incoming damage consistently (read: tank stance) in fights was too low. They fixed this in 3.2.

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In this thread, sure; because this one deals with the strength accessories and their role.

Initial comments have, and always were, that the primary stats for tanks on the accessories mean nothing in 3.2, it is all about the secondary stats and the benefits you get from those. 2400 to 3200 extra hit points will net you nothing in the long run.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

So, like, stop changing your argument, basically? You were arguing one page ago about how "IT'S NOT DPS GUYS IT'S CRITS FOR EQUILIBRIUM WHICH I SHOULD BE MAINLY USING FOR TP" and now it's all about the deeps. Color me thoroughly confused.

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Are you having trouble with TP? Equilibrium in a normal tanking role is for heal backs, again since they have made it so tank damage doesn't count there isn't a point to stay in Deliverance or swap to Deliverance except during a pause phase to perhaps beat up an add. If you're having trouble with TP then you're doing something wrong with your Wrath.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

(Also: FF1, FF3, FF4, FF5, FF6, FF9, FF12 IZJS, FF13 - not sure on the FF12 one, that's just the way I always read the info on it.)
(That's not including the Tactics series or any other non-numbered ones.)

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FF1: Knight = Powerhouse in armor, not the tank it was meant to be.
FF3: Same as FF1
FF4: Cecil does more damage than Kain, Rosa with a bow is highly effective for damage in the back.
FF5: Same as FF1 with even more options now that you can add skills from other classes in it.
FF6: Roles? LOL.
FF9: Steiner is a spellblade, everyone is damage.
FF12: Again, roles? LOL.
FF13: Roles? Swap those out in combat, Triple Ravager does amazing to finish lots of content.
Tactics: Swap skills out for customization of characters.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Okay. I apologize. I thought my explanation might go over your head, so let me explain it in simpler terms.

A diminishing return is a situation in which adding more of a stat gives you less gains from that stat as the base value from which you are increasing gets higher. Critical Hit Rate is a multiplicative stat. It increases at a linear rate. This creates a curve that plateaus (slowly) as you increase the value. The more Crit you have, the less effective gains you get from increasing the stat further.

Yes, it also increases critical damage, and this absolutely helps to stem the curve and make it slower! It's absolutely true that Crit is higher weight than Det for every Job in the current meta (besides, maybe, Machinist) because we have not yet reached the point at which Critical Hit Rate stops being extremely effective per-point. We may never reach that point.

But to argue that this point being beyond the scope of numbers we'll ever reach means we're not approaching it the higher our Crit climbs is ignorant.

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Yup, and by the time you get to the point where your curve is plateauing (not in this expansion) your damage/healing is making up the difference.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

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When it was first announced Reddit almost unanimously agreed the change was necessary. The FFXIV subreddit may be more divisive than this forum. You do not speak for everyone, stop assuming you do.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

Obviously this is something the players (customers!) wanted to continue to happen. The devs should have just rolled with it rather than trying to force something else onto them. Rather then trying to force their calculations of tanks not doing damage onto the players (customers!), they should have instead embraced it.

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Sorry, but you don't speak for me either. The STR meta came about as the result of bad design and I'm glad they finally fixed it. It's not perfect, but it's better. I'm happy that I don't have to take weeks to buy my raid accessories with tokens anymore (because I'd feel really shitty greed rolling with our 2 melee on them). We don't have a collective groan to look forward to any time a Fending accessory drops because they actually have a use now aside from decorating the floor. I played and enjoyed the STR meta too, but honestly the whole thing was really broken on a fundamental design level. You had people telling newbies wearing Fending accessories (you know, the only ones that you can Need roll on?) that they were bad for wearing them.

:|

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

No, not broken. Players (customers!) want to play that way AND they can play that way effectively proves that it is not broken.

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I really don't know how to convince you that you're wrong. A meta is broken when things are not being done according to the way the developers want them to be done. This is true across all games and all genres. If a character in a fighting game is discovered to be broken due to a skill or mechanic they employ, they're balanced out either by the devs or players (character/skill bans). Same applies here. The difference between that and FFXIV is players are going to exploit broken elements because it's a cooperative game, not competetive. There's no one (besides you, apparently) who disagrees with this statement:

Warrior pre-3.2 was incredibly broken. 3.2 barely addressed its broken nature, but DID bring it down to the realm of the mortals... sort of.

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This is going to sound like a troll now, but no, sorry.

DPS is the only damage they see, please review live letters.

Tank damage is not factored in. Healers should not be DPSing.

These are not tiers, these are roles. They are something they force upon it.

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Healers still have dps skills. Tanks still do damage. There's no penalty for doing damage on either Job. You're still encouraged to do it to clear content early - this was even stated in the Live Letters. Those who want to push the new raid tier week 1 will do so by getting crafted gear and leaning on tank and healer dps, which they did, and continue to do.

It's not forced on you. You have the absolute shittiest outlook on this game that I have ever encountered. Why do you still play it?

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In this thread, sure; because this one deals with the strength accessories and their role.

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This thread is talking about the exact thing that you're the only one arguing for. The fact that no one is supporting you in a thread discussing the "problem" you see means you're wrong, according to the community. You definitely do not speak for everyone when you're a lone voice among hundreds.

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Initial comments have, and always were, that the primary stats for tanks on the accessories mean nothing in 3.2, it is all about the secondary stats and the benefits you get from those. 2400 to 3200 extra hit points will net you nothing in the long run.

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Except that 2400 to 3200 health could mean the difference between a wipe and a clear. The new raid tier (even in Normal) is incredibly tight on tank and healer checks. One mis-handled mechanic results in a dead tank, especially when they're rocking less buffer health. I dunno about you, but when I pug Alexander Normal, my goal is to kill the fight, not min-max pointless secondaries that make no meaningful change to any of my utility skills.

And even if you flip-flop to the dps argument, gaining <1% dps over the course of a fight at the cost of >10% of your maximum health is absolutely idiotic, and you should stop doing it.

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Are you having trouble with TP? Equilibrium in a normal tanking role is for heal backs, again since they have made it so tank damage doesn't count there isn't a point to stay in Deliverance or swap to Deliverance except during a pause phase to perhaps beat up an add. If you're having trouble with TP then you're doing something wrong with your Wrath.

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I don't play Warrior. I play Dark Knight and Paladin. On Paladin, my TP runs dry real quick in A7N, for example, especially when my OT WAR thinks his dps (which is generally lower than mine with him in Deliverance and me in Shield Oath) matters just so much so I should just hunker down through Uplander Doom. Losing those MP GCDs for stance swaps is kind of detrimental to my overall TP management.

Either way, you should rarely be using Equilibrium for self-heals. Healers will keep you up most of the time. and Equilibrium gives you an extra stack, which aids in your ability to get 3 Fell Cleaves during your Berserks - something every single Warrior, main-tank or off-tank, should be doing.

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ff junk

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This isn't a discussion of FF roles, but pretty much all of those classifications have nothing to do with the point you made. Every single Job in each of those games performs one primary function. Cecil's Paladin is not FFXIV's Paladin. It's a drastically different Job that fills a drastically different Role, but it still fills exactly that one Role and nothing else, outside of the remake. That same comment can be applied to every single "counter-argument" you tried to bring to the table. Also, you should check out this link, re:FF12.

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Yup, and by the time you get to the point where your curve is plateauing (not in this expansion) your damage/healing is making up the difference.

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I like how this argument is completely irrelevant to the point that I was making in that quote! Thanks for proving that you can't follow a discussion.
I was simply proving that Critical Hit Rate has diminishing returns in FFXIV. I was not saying that it's bad or whatever you're trying to imply I was saying in your comment here.
So, thank you for entirely missing the point and proving that I'm wasting my time talking to you.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Either way, you should rarely be using Equilibrium for self-heals. Healers will keep you up most of the time, and Equilibrium gives you an extra stack, which aids in your ability to get 3 Fell Cleaves during your Berserks - something every single Warrior, main-tank or off-tank, should be doing.

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Actually, equilibrium doesn't increase wrath/abandon stacks. Unless they changed that in 3.2. Which, given how much I pay attention, may well have happened. But still, giving up hp to increase crit rating for those equilibrium crits is a little dumb.

Apparently Bikkusu is unaware that SE isn't making intense dps checks right now and that they have tuned all pre-existing content to account for tank dps being nerfed. Judging by that and the fact that Bikkusu has a slight, a very very slight, dps increase from using those slaying accessories with crit and yet still claims that tank dps doesn't matter, she clearly isn't playing warrior efficiently.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Actually, equilibrium doesn't increase wrath/abandon stacks.

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Oops! As I said, I don't play Warrior, so I was unaware. It's just Raw Intuition that increases it, from the new skills, right! x_x

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Originally Posted by BattleGrace

One of my offtanks in a DF of midas 2 (A6/M2) went this route and it wasn't a mistake because he had a proto midian ring plus rest 210 slaying, i dono if they knew there was a tankswap in M2 or not but the second he took the boss from me he dropped to the ground, i guess that 1% dps did him wonders. moral of the story, don't think for a second that STR is as valuable as VIT with it's same AP ratio, it's not, always the the parry and suck it up no content is worth wiping because someone decides they want to stick to the old ways.

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Yep, & I guarantee 100% the healers got the blame for not having a spell that can do a 20k heal plus shielding for 10k on top. At least WHM have Benediction, us Scholars have Lustrate which no longer cuts it with all the VIT.

I don't think it's fair to punish tanks overall dps so heavily.

There are bad dps and healers but that doesn't mean their damage/healing should be nerfed.

Hoping they increase our AP from VIT in the future.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

I don't think it's fair to punish tanks overall dps so heavily.

There are bad dps and healers but that doesn't mean their damage/healing should be nerfed.

Hoping they increase our AP from VIT in the future.

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If they do that, enemies and bosses will be adjusted accordingly to that change, which means bad DPS and healers will remain bad.

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Originally Posted by Bikkusu

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mit·i·ga·tion
ˌmidəˈɡāSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.
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Healing is not mitigation.

Strength Warriors were doing quite well with their self heals, dark knight has two heal backs it can employ, and paladins got clemency which is a significant heal to not just themselves but anyone in the party which is broken (Make up your mind about your role Paladin!).

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Wrong. Self-heals are mitigation. Be they from Regeneration, Self Healing actions or Drain effects.

If you recover 2000 hp every 20 seconds you are reducing the amount (mitigating) that needs to be healed by outside sources by 2000 hp worth of damage every 20 seconds. If you are taking less than 2000 hp worth of damage every 20 seconds you are mitigating all damage and are therefore immortal as long as you can maintain your self-healing.

If the game is balanced around you mitigating 2000 hp worth of damage every 20 seconds and you mitigated 2600 hp worth of damage in that time period; you are mitigating 30% more damage than intended.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

Hoping they increase our AP from VIT in the future.

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I don't. I hope they make more ways to actively mitigate damage and introduce bosses that depend on that instead of the 1 tank buster every once in a while.

Leave the DEEPS to the dps.

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Originally Posted by Seku

I don't. I hope they make more ways to actively mitigate damage and introduce bosses that depend on that instead of the 1 tank buster every once in a while.

Leave the DEEPS to the dps.

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Some of us don't like 4man dungeons taking 20 minutes but if that's your preference.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

Some of us don't like 4man dungeons taking 20 minutes but if that's your preference.

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Edit: Sounds like your Dps are under geared or suck in a static. Because lol @ 20 minutes runs in a DF consistently.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Wrong. Self-heals are mitigation. Be they from Regeneration, Self Healing actions or Drain effects.

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No. Heals are heals. Mitigation is the ability to make damage not happen. Parry was the only mitigation stat shared by tanks and it was amazing when I could make 35% of the damage just not happen. This was broken, and given that it was affected by strength, will most likely stay broken. The only viable forms of mitigation are a paladin's shield (block), shield oath, and grit.

Heals are heals.

That said, back to the topic.

To reiterate, we aren't discussing a vitality versus strength meta any longer because this was broken making it a nonviable construct. DPS for tanks is out completely, so stop imagining this is about DPS increase through any means. There's only one secondary stat (after reaching accuracy cap) and that benefits tanks any longer and it is Critical Hit Rate.

Fending accessories don't offer any true bonus for this stat. The extra vitality from the accessories are not providing any true benefit to the tank when you look at the numbers being tossed around ind Midas Savage.

If a dexterity build allowed for a higher dodge chance then I'd be arguing for this because dodge is great form of mitigation that makes damage just not happen; however this is completely random.

If parry allowed to drop magic damage down, then I'd argue for a parry build.

Neither of these above statements are true though, so I argue that the critical hit rate from the slaying accessories outweighss the 2000 missing HP.

Funny thing about this change is that it actually made tanking in general harder than it was before, now stance dancing requires even more skill as things hits way harder than before so you need to find perfect windows for it, also your enmity is lower in dps stance so you cant sit in dps stance 24/7 like before.