Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I don't remember it being specifically mentioned, but they did talk about there being a lot more adjustments, without giving specifics. I can only hope that yhey do something to make it relevant again.


I wasn't questioning the use of gender, I was objection to the marginally dismissive use of 'girl'. I can only imagine the response if someone started calling other posters 'boy'.

You could easily have used my name instead.

Side question, even though you quite evidently don't like thebgame, why do you play the game and use your free time to post here about it?

---

Well, I don't consider boy or girl an insult. Less you think so Dude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Well, I don't consider boy or girl an insult. Less you think so Dude.

---

Tell you what, start calling the guys you bump into on the street 'boy' and see how long you retain the opinion that it's perfectly OK. Also, I said it was marginally dismissive, not insulting, interesting you would choose that angle though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Tell you what, start calling the guys you bump into on the street 'boy' and see how long you retain the opinion that it's perfectly OK. Also, I said it was marginally dismissive, not insulting, interesting you would choose that angle though.

---

I agree with you, his use of 'girl' came off as condescending. I am a male, but as a female character, I receive a lot of these condescending remarks. These remarks are mostly by people who disagree with me, and more often than not don't even read my post fully. The most recent example is the 2nd response to my "Illusion of Choice" thread - "bae" etc. I am not entirely sure why some people choose to treat female players differently than male players, but sexism persists.

That said, it is difficult to use a lot of terms for female players - as many of them have been used in condescending (or suggestive) ways. Even if he were to use woman or lady, it could be received poorly. It's also excusable that he may not know if you are an adult or a child. If I were him, I just would have used "her" or your name as you suggested.

@Nektulos it's difficult to take you seriously and have a respectable discussion when you refer to people as 'girl', 'dude' etc. It comes off rather condescending and absent of respect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

You already know that the WAR tank DPS is broken when you see a youtube video of 7 WARs and 1 WHM down Thordan EX. That shouldn't be possible in recent patch content.

*EDIT* Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8nSBfGtkd8

---

This has nothing to do with WAR, nor is it proof of anything other than Thordan being super lenient DPS-wise. I'm sure a group of 6 Healers and 2 tanks could clear it if they are competent enough.

Really, Thordan is a joke DPS-wise. It's a very mechanic-intensive fight, which is where people struggle.

People be like, "Let's nerf Fell Cleave because it's the highest potency skill on a tank class! I'm a DPS! You should be stroking my epeen instead!"

Let's put it in context. War's skill potencies are as follows. 150 Heavy Swing, 200 Skull Sunder, 190 Maim, 250 Storm's Path, 270 Storm's Eye, 280 Butcher's Block.

And

ONE

MEASELY

oGCD

Brutal Swing 100.

Fell Cleave makes up for roughly 30% of a WAR's DPS.

In comparison WAR hits like a wet noodle outside of Fell Cleave. I mean if you wanted to nerf it atleast give a good reason other than "ermergerd good wars are doing better dmg then me when i play suboptimally :((((". I wouldn't mind trading it for more oGCD attacks and potency boosts across the board on other skills. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't see anyone complaining about DRK's awesome MT damage. Can I has Scourge?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

I don't see anyone complaining about DRK's awesome MT damage. Can I has Scourge?

---

Nah, DRK needs a buff if anything. Think about it: Yeah, it has all those advantages, like high OT damage, the highest MT damage, and the highest magic mitigation (which will always exist since 99% of AOEs are magical) but it's contrasted by it's plethora of disadvantages such as... uh... I mean... it's physical mitigation isn't amazing... but tank swaps exist... and they can't design a fight that a DRK isn't able to tank...

Anyway, buff DRK pls, sometimes I press buttons together that don't work in combination at all instead of just spacing them out so they don't overlap with eachother. Using this small amount of brainpower is just expecting too much for DRKs like me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

I guess I'm misunderstanding something. How is changing dmg modifiers from STR to VIT 'forcing' us to stay in tank stance while MT? Why would it become detrimental to stance dance? Beyond the change in accessories, I don't intend to play any differently from how I am playing now. If anything, with the added pool of HP we should be able to use DPS stance more often.

---

If SE does it right, being out of tank stance in a real fight means death without lots of cooldowns up.

Example, I died last night in a trap PUG A3S from a random 12K crit auto attack (no debuffs involved, just a freak hit after a swipe before the hand split). Even in Savage, that kind of damage from an auto attack is considered abnormal (I mean, the tank busters in A4S are only about 10-15K damage each).

What happens when 12K AAs are the normal damage, those crits do almost 20K? 40-60K (or more) tank busters coming every minute or so? And your healers are still only healing you for 4-6K per Cure/Physic/Benefic? (OK, ashamed to admit I have no idea how much my healers basic heals heal me for because I watch damage numbers too much. But Heal potency isn't being increased outside of the normal gear progression, as far as we know)

Yes, at higher ilv, after you've gotten some A7S gear (or 3.3), sure, stance dancing will be more common.

But early on...


Unfortunately, SE is likely to not increase the damage as high as its needed to save the casuals. So the best tanks will be stance dancing immediately. But there's going to be a ton of whining from healers and tanks trying to DPS and just watching hp go to 0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyros

This has nothing to do with WAR, nor is it proof of anything other than Thordan being super lenient DPS-wise. I'm sure a group of 6 Healers and 2 tanks could clear it if they are competent enough.

Really, Thordan is a joke DPS-wise. It's a very mechanic-intensive fight, which is where people struggle.

---

I recall 7 healers (can't remember the mix of WHM and SCH) and a tank were able to kill Titan EX when it was still relevant (probably 2.2). Did anyone consider Titan EX to be broken because of that? No (just the lovely PUGs who couldn't even get to Heart Phase).
Titan EX's DPS check (actually, most fights back then) was fairly easy to pass. The mechanics were the challenge.


Same thing with Thordan EX. Mechanic-heavy, DPS-lighter fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Tell you what, start calling the guys you bump into on the street 'boy' and see how long you retain the opinion that it's perfectly OK. Also, I said it was marginally dismissive, not insulting, interesting you would choose that angle though.

---

Not to defend Nektulos, but I am curious what catch-all you WOULD use for females. For males it's guy, as you use yourself in this post, but what would you use for females? Girl? Woman? Lady? Madam?

I am not a native English speaker so I may be missing a word, but at least to me the catch-alls would by guys and girls. "I was speaking to a guy" vs. "I was speaking to a girl" is the exact same line and meaning just with different genders to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moonleg

Not to defend Nektulos, but I am curious what catch-all you WOULD use for females. For males it's guy, as you use yourself in this post, but what would you use for females? Girl? Woman? Lady? Madam?

I am not a native English speaker so I may be missing a word, but at least to me the catch-alls would by guys and girls. "I was speaking to a guy" vs. "I was speaking to a girl" is the exact same line and meaning just with different genders to me.

---

Ahhh the beauty of English. Lol. Generally you can refer to females as "girl" if you are also referring to males as "guy" or "boy," the only difference is that contextually, "girl" is also used as an insult to demean a female by implying immaturity more often than "boy" is used to demean males. I don't think that was the case in the post, but, text does not convey tone or intention.

http://t.fod4.com/t/177fcc0acc/c640x360_32.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyVal

Ahhh the beauty of English. Lol. Generally you can refer to females as "girl" if you are also referring to males as "guy" or "boy," the only difference is that contextually, "girl" is also used as an insult to demean a female by implying immaturity more often than "boy" is used to demean males. I don't think that was the case in the post, but, text does not convey tone or intention.

http://t.fod4.com/t/177fcc0acc/c640x360_32.jpg

---

Wouldn't the equivalent of "guy" be "gal" ? I know I've seen it float around a couple of times

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Wouldn't the equivalent of "guy" be "gal" ? I know I've seen it float around a couple of times

---

Yep that can be used, it just generally isn't. The rule of thumb is to just use blanket formality for all involved parties, my point was mostly to let them know that "girl" can be used as an insult in some cases, hence the friction from the post in question.

More or less fun fact: main stat value value going down from the current value of 1 for STR means secondaries will be weighed higher after adjusting for the new base line of 1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Just move on, folks.

---

Yep. People need to stop pulling out arbitrary formulas. Have you seen the formula for crit? Lol (Hint its not simple nor intuitive)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Except they
- Take less damage (Monster dies faster, so that reduces damage taken by default.)
- Hold hate better. (More damage, more hate.)

Yes, more damage = less damage taken = because monster dies faster.

Vitality
- Raises damage you take.
- Less Threat/Enmity.

---

source that post 3.2 Vit tank do less dmg than pre 3.2 Str tank?

All what we know is that a Str tank will do post 3.2 less dmg than pre 3.2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

source that post 3.2 Vit tank do less dmg than pre 3.2 Str tank?

---

Wouldn't it be common sense that a tank with more str than another would do more damage?

Y'know. Normally in tank discussions I like to throw in my own 2 cents with a long-winded post about game design or something but this thread is such a train wreak that I don't think that there's anything left here that is worth salvaging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrea

Wouldn't it be common sense that a tank with more str than another would do more damage?

---

pre 3.2, yes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

pre 3.2, yes

---

I should fully wake up before visiting forums. My mistake, sorry.

I'm hoping SE just put it at 50/50 for vit/str in terms of +dmg. That would mean that even if u put all your bonus attributes into vit, your going to get an equal damage gains as you would from STR and also extra HP. It would not make any sense to make it any lower than half and half because all our armor and weapons add both STR and VIT. If it were say 30% STR and 70% Vit than that would mean that all that extra +STR on our weapons and armor are hardly doing anything compared to adding more determination, crit, parry, skill speed, etc cause those stats are still receiving 100% benefit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

People be like, "Let's nerf Fell Cleave because it's the highest potency skill on a tank class! I'm a DPS! You should be stroking my epeen instead!" Let's put it in context. War's skill potencies are as follows. 150 Heavy Swing, 200 Skull Sunder, 190 Maim, 250 Storm's Path, 270 Storm's Eye, 280 Butcher's Block.

And

ONE

MEASELY

oGCD

Brutal Swing 100.

Fell Cleave makes up for roughly 30% of a WAR's DPS.

In comparison WAR hits like a wet noodle outside of Fell Cleave. I mean if you wanted to nerf it atleast give a good reason other than "ermergerd good wars are doing better dmg then me when i play suboptimally :((((". I wouldn't mind trading it for more oGCD attacks and potency boosts across the board on other skills. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't see anyone complaining about DRK's awesome MT damage. Can I has Scourge?

---

Honestly, cannot understand how one could say WAR DPS is not out of Whack. It's a solid 75% of DPS damage, with top WAR on FFLOGs pulling 1450 on Oppressor vs 1850 for top DPS. The WAR also pulls 85% of the top MNK listing.

Naturally, these are all top DPS and I feel averages would be better, but I can't figure out how to do that on FFLogs, or know if that information is readily available.

I've personally seen WARs pull 2nd highest DPS in fully competent parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Snip.

---

Possibly the fact that most top FFlogs are bloated and WARs usually getting 99% uptime on any fight due to most party mechanics being centered around the rest of the party or the ability to burn cooldowns to ignore mechanics if the timing between tank swaps is graceful enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorseBoots

Possibly the fact that most top FFlogs are bloated and WARs usually getting 99% uptime on any fight due to most party mechanics being centered around the rest of the party or the ability to burn cooldowns to ignore mechanics if the timing between tank swaps is graceful enough.

---

Which is precisely why I wanted to have an average. However, that doesn't exclude the fact that the WAR pulled 85% of the damage of the top MNK.

It also doesn't exclude my statement, "I've personally seen WARs pull 2nd highest DPS in fully competent parties".

I actually found the current statistics:
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7/#...amount&boss=18

Over the past two weeks:

75th percentile puts WAR at 1026 DPS vs SMN (top) at 1261 DPS - 81.4%

50th percentile puts WAR at 910 DPS vs SMN at 1109 DPS - 82%

Max puts WAR at 1429 DPS vs BLM at 1758 DPS - 81.3%

10th percentile puts WAR at 642 DPS vs MNK at 894 DPS - 71.8%

It's presumable, that at least part of these fights, the WAR is tanking an oppressor (less likely in the MAX and more likely in 50th/10th, with 75th most likely including tanking with good stance dancing)). It's clear that, WAR is able to pull 70-80% of the damage of a DPS (even when tanking), which imo seems quite off. That said, even DRK seems pretty imbalanced with their damage output, just not as much as WAR.


EDIT/PS: I used Oppressor information, as 1. it's more-or-less single target and 2. there is a much larger pool and higher skill range of players entering A1S,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorseBoots

Possibly the fact that most top FFlogs are bloated

---

Man, I find FFXIV logs to be a very bad method of comparison. Most people don't even -care- what their DPS is at, and the ones that do are trying to find ways to bloat thier DPS as high as possible (The "#1 Monk" I hear about is often a monk that gets to just ignore mechanics and focus on DPS'ing a boss. What exactly makes them #1 in that case?)

I saw some high WAR's for A2S... who were using 2 bards, and there also just so happened to be 3 tanks in that party. xD So yea... FFXIV logs is a bad example for anything. The fact that WAR -can- do high DPS if they're given all the right conditions doesn't mean that they will. Though don't get me wrong - I'm putting out over 1.4k-1.5k on phase 1 of A3S is -awesome-, that's just the nature of burst vs. sustained.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eidolon

Man, I find FFXIV logs to be a very bad method of comparison. Most people don't even -care- what their DPS is at, and the ones that do are trying to find ways to bloat thier DPS as high as possible (The "#1 Monk" I hear about is often a monk that gets to just ignore mechanics and focus on DPS'ing a boss. What exactly makes them #1 in that case?)

I saw some high WAR's for A2S... who were using 2 bards, and there also just so happened to be 3 tanks in that party. xD So yea... FFXIV logs is a bad example for anything. The fact that WAR -can- do high DPS if they're given all the right conditions doesn't mean that they will. Though don't get me wrong - I'm putting out over 1.4k-1.5k on phase 1 of A3S is -awesome-, that's just the nature of burst vs. sustained.

---

I see this ignore mechanics and focus on DPSing argument a bunch, but if someone ignores mechanics then they often die and produce far less DPS. FFLogs also has different percentile brackets, and not everyone on FFLogs even knows they are on it. Further, FFLogs is the only crowd sourced set of data we have. We could all throw out numbers from the run we did earlier this week, but that doesn't give a very good impression of things as a whole. Looking at 50/75 percentile statistics does.

Quote:

---

The fact that WAR -can- do high DPS if they're given all the right conditions doesn't mean that they will.

---

Same can be said for any job, but balance should be designed around potential not what crappy players are putting out. Otherwise, I think BRDs need a 4-5x potency buff, because I once saw a BRD pulling 250 DPS in A1N.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Honestly, cannot understand how one could say WAR DPS is not out of Whack. It's a solid 75% of DPS damage, with top WAR on FFLOGs pulling 1450 on Oppressor vs 1850 for top DPS. The WAR also pulls 85% of the top MNK listing.

I've personally seen WARs pull 2nd highest DPS in fully competent parties.

---

Isn't that the big point of being a WAR in FF14? Which is to be the DPS tank. A DRK tanking without grit and getting their cds proc can do just as much if not more than a WAR. DRKs do more in A4S it seems. Any good DPS won't lose to WARs and DRKs anyway. Most WARs will be offtanking and that is where they act as a DPS until they have to tank and their toolkit for dealing damage as offtank were enhanced in HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

That said, even DRK seems pretty imbalanced with their damage output, just not as much as WAR.

---

Yeah, honestly, both of them are probably a bit too high. I'm expecting either slight nerfs to tank damage or some slight buffs to DPS classes generally, since they've said they're adjusting most of the classes in some way. Fight mechanics often favor tanks in Savage, though, especially since they can currently essentially act as DPS. If tank stance was more required for main tank duty, the difference would likely be greater.

Of course, the main reason all this is possible is because of the STR accessory problem, which I have to assume the developers didn't really test around when setting potencies and all of that. They probably should have, but...hindsight is 20/20 and all of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGladius

Isn't that the big point of being a WAR in FF14? Which is to be the DPS tank. A DRK tanking without grit and getting their cds proc can do just as much if not more than a WAR. DRKs do more in A4S it seems. Any good DPS won't lose to WARs and DRKs anyway. Most WARs will be offtanking and that is where they act as a DPS until they have to tank and their toolkit for dealing damage as offtank were enhanced in HW.

---

Heh well, arguing here won't change anything, but the amount of damage the tanks can put out now (all 3 of them, with a focus on WAR) is absurd from my view point. It is unfortunately deteriorating the trinity, and if we continue down that line I can see this game becoming the mindless DPS-fests that we see in GW2 and BnS. Luckily, we are not quite at that point, we just have horrible game balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Since Vitality AND Strength effect damage, doesn't that mean Jewelry for tanks must have both strength and vitality on it to make up for it?

---

Got tired of people in the tank forums telling you your ideas were wrongheaded?

Also no, this still never needs to happen. Hope this helps!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Got tired of people in the tank forums telling you your ideas were wrongheaded?

Also no, this still never needs to happen. Hope this helps!

---

He got told he's wrong in this forum at least 4 other threads.

Its just getting really sad at this point, especially since he doesn't even have a geared tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Snip.

---

I don't see what's exactly the issue here. Oppressor hits like a wet noodle outside of his tank busters. My static's WAR was doing in with 100% STR accessories by week three. With A1S specifically, the only thing that WAR needs to worry about outside of micromanaging cooldowns is making sure puddles aren't in a bad place and that his Oppressor isn't kissing the other.

Any DPS in that fight has to deal with dodging mechanics, dodging each other, going off the boss to take out and position adds. All these lead to DPS loss, meanwhile that WAR is in that same place whacking away at his robot.

You're getting more bloated numbers because a majority of Savage doesn't demand much up-time of tank stance for the tanks and very little for the tanks to actually do outside of just whacking things. I can count the amount of times I enter Grit on A3S as MT on one hand and I'm never in it for longer than two hate combos to keep the table steady.

Meanwhile in Thordan EX, even if it's an easier fight than the latter half of Savage, Thordan is a much more aggressive boss, throwing out tank busters followed by hard hitting cleaves on top of raid wide damage being thrown out as well, which can overwhelm your average healer, which then leads to more time in tank stance.

If any one DPS was given the freedom to ignore mechanics and keep up a 100% up-time on the boss like any tank does you'd see just as high bloated numbers in their percentile. The difference is that if a DPS were to be given that freedom the rest of the party has to adapt to compensate while any tank worth their salt just does it naturally.

Honestly depending how much VIT overpowers STR in terms of gains if it even does at all... A vit ring that is melded with str can still beat a higher ilvl vit only ring. How much more Vit by itself is enough to beat a vit + str combination will only be determinable after the update unelss they post some real numbers... obviously not happening.

They pretty much have to keep STR worth having cause it is on all our armor and weapons... My guess is still 50/50 but 40/60 still seems somewhat reasonable for STR/VIT, 30/70 is pushing it..

I dont know what all this fuss is about tanks doing damage. War and dark are DPS tanks, Paladin is a mitigation tank as will the next tank be most likely RDM. Why should a DPS tank not be seen doing high damage, obviously whoever is doing it is performing their job well with the tools and gear available. If the new update brings a small nerf, so be it, I can accept it. Not because we were doing too much damage though, but to compensate for people feeling like they NEED to meld or wear DPS gear which shouldn't be the case to achieve a desirable dps level or overcome a dps clock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HorseBoots

I don't see what's exactly the issue here. Oppressor hits like a wet noodle outside of his tank busters. My static's WAR was doing in with 100% STR accessories by week three. With A1S specifically, the only thing that WAR needs to worry about outside of micromanaging cooldowns is making sure puddles aren't in a bad place and that his Oppressor isn't kissing the other.

Any DPS in that fight has to deal with dodging mechanics, dodging each other, going off the boss to take out and position adds. All these lead to DPS loss, meanwhile that WAR is in that same place whacking away at his robot.

You're getting more bloated numbers because a majority of Savage doesn't demand much up-time of tank stance for the tanks and very little for the tanks to actually do outside of just whacking things. I can count the amount of times I enter Grit on A3S as MT on one hand and I'm never in it for longer than two hate combos to keep the table steady.

Meanwhile in Thordan EX, even if it's an easier fight than the latter half of Savage, Thordan is a much more aggressive boss, throwing out tank busters followed by hard hitting cleaves on top of raid wide damage being thrown out as well, which can overwhelm your average healer, which then leads to more time in tank stance.

If any one DPS was given the freedom to ignore mechanics and keep up a 100% up-time on the boss like any tank does you'd see just as high bloated numbers in their percentile. The difference is that if a DPS were to be given that freedom the rest of the party has to adapt to compensate while any tank worth their salt just does it naturally.

---

The issue is that WAR DPS is through the roof (as is DRK, and PLD is too high).

If you'd like the statistics for Thordan, here is the link http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/4/#class=Any

In this case, WAR performs better than in A1S, where they are ahead of both BRD and MCH and put out 85% of the top DPS job (MNK at 981) at the 75 percentile.



If you're curious as to how I think it should be balanced, this roughly how I'd like to see damage numbers. (numbers are to give a general scope and not actual balanced numbers)

Single target
MNK 100%
NIN 98%
DRG 96%
BLM 95%
SMN 90%
BRD 80% (depending on song use, without song use numbers would be higher)
MCH 80% (depending on turret use, without support use numbers would be higher)
WAR 45%
DRK 40%
PLD 35%
SCH 15%
WHM/AST 10%

AoE
SMN 100%
BLM 95%
MNK 80%
BRD 90%
MCH 90%
DRG 75%
NIN 70%
WAR 20%
DRK 15%
PLD 10%
SCH 20%
WHM 15%
AST 10%

give or take, but that general spectrum. In other words, a WAR should be pulling less than half of the top DPS, not 70-85%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

EDIT/PS: I used Oppressor information, as 1. it's more-or-less single target and 2. there is a much larger pool and higher skill range of players entering A1S,

---

Okay, not sure if anyone else pointed this out since I am only skimming through these forums. However, while Oppressor is a more accessible fight, it is VERY "padding" friendly. Classes that NEVER single target as much as others, i.e. SMN and Bard, come out on top simply because of double DoT'ing. Not to mention the opportunities to AoE targets each time adds spawn during Emergency Deployment without breaking rotations. WAR can cheese so much here by replacing a FC with Decimate each time adds spawn. Just like how summoners and scholars can Bane those adds. So Oppressor information should not be a good fight to use as measurement to be frank.

FFLogs in general is a very bad a tool to measure DPS, imo. A lot of the top numbers in there only happen if the whole team agrees to pad a single member's DPS, meaning they come up with strategies that caters that that 1 person's strengths to make sure that they do the most DPS possible at the expense of other people's DPS. Heck, to pad our healer's HPS on Faust for lols, we had the WAR tank the adds while facing them towards the group (getting the group cleaved lol). At the same time, the WAR kept spamming Overpower and I actually used Bane... So much padding opportunities for laughs and kicks.

Take A2S for example, with the way my group does it, no matter how I personally spin my CDs and rotations, or who I DoT first, I never broke the 2030 DPS. Simple because they cater to a more single target DPS heavy group. We run a monk + DRK + MCH, so I don't have Foe's at my disposal either. Mobs are rarely stacked in an optimal way where I can bane from a 5 vulnerability stacked mob to the rest.. And when they are, the other mobs are already dying because everyone's DPS is near the 2K DPS. On the other hand, we could've strategized to prioritize stacking invulnerability while mobs stack so I can DoT first, I could also wait for bombs to spawn before I Bane and/or Deathflare, and I would easily break the 2400 DPS. Actually a few weeks ago, I stopped using SMN in there and started using BLM since our strategy is really more priority target focused than AoE oriented. (Granted I used SMN the last couple of weeks because otherwise I wouldn't use my Gordian weapon :p).

TL;DR: FFlogs is not a good indicator for class DPS balance.

As for single target and AoE balance percentages like you posted, I don't necessarily agree. Mainly because I believe it shouldn't be a matter of individual DPS, but raid DPS. You have NIN doing more ST than DRG when NIN brings, by far, the most utility out of DPS jobs after BRD/MCH.

Another problem in your approach to DPS balance, is what if you end up with a group that has only the lowest guys in there? So AST+WHM and PLD+DRK and BRD/MCH/SMN/BLM?

Also on what bases should BLM be lower than DRG and NIN? BLM has no means to increase anyone else's DPS like DRG and NIN do. You basically are asking for BLM to not be competitive at all since all 3 melees are better and the utility of BRD and MCH are indispensable. As it stands, BLM should be doing exactly the same DPS as MNK. Why? Well, MNK can't leave target or he drops stacks, BLM can't move or he drops Enochian. MNK is risky because melee. BLM is still risky because movement (and dodging) hurts DPS. MNK only has some defensive utility, so does BLM. MNK does not increase raid DPS, same as BLM. Raid contribution should remain the same! But then MNK "can" run out TP, BLM can refill MP indefinitely. I guess BLM has to pay a bit of DPS for that as a price.

Imo, if you want DPS balance, you should have a simple rule to follow: If you switch class A for B (or maybe classes A and B for C and D), you still get roughly the same total raid DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Single target
*

---

I too would like to raid with four monks in my raid group.

If this was sane it would be more like MNK/BLM 100% > DRG 98% > NIN/SMN 96% > etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Instrumentality

If this was sane it would be more like MNK/BLM 100% > DRG 98% > NIN/SMN 96% > etc.

---

They did say the numbers were only meant to give a general scope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

They did say the numbers were only meant to give a general scope.

---

Not a very good scope. If the values were as he wants, you'd ONLY bring MNK (well, 3 MNK, 1 MCH when you absolutely need the support abilities), none of the other DPS would be able to get anywhere near MNK's DPS-level even factoring in their support.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PArcher

Not a very good scope. If the values were as he wants, you'd ONLY bring MNK (well, 3 MNK, 1 MCH when you absolutely need the support abilities), none of the other DPS would be able to get anywhere near MNK's DPS-level even factoring in their support.

---

As long as the disparity in individual DPS is not made for in raid DPS, you will have a problem and class stacking will simply be unavoidable.

Yes, I will always run 2 warriors, 2 scholars and 4 monks/SMNs (based on encounter) in numbers varying that much.

On a second note: I do not care/mind if tanks (and even healers) had the potential to match dedicated DPS. Why? I think it would be interesting to see how much a healer can pull off while keeping everyone alive! Imo, it adds depth that the tank or healer cannot do its DPS because it actually has to tank or heal, not because of some artificial cap to its DPS that is 10% or 40% compared to an actual DPS.

As I said earlier, the simple rule for balance is: If you substitute class A for B, do you still get the same raid DPS? It might be a bit more interesting if you consider things like: Get a DRG for the BRD, and a machinist for the monk. But as long as any combination of classes can net you roughly the same raid DPS, you got "balance".

SPECIALLY that this game has no PvP that is worth while. (No world PvP or any PvP that actually matters in a way that affects PvE), class balance should not be based on just individual performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Okay, not sure if anyone else pointed this out since I am only skimming through these forums. However, while Oppressor is a more accessible fight, it is VERY "padding" friendly. Classes that NEVER single target as much as others, i.e. SMN and Bard, come out on top simply because of double DoT'ing. Not to mention the opportunities to AoE targets each time adds spawn during Emergency Deployment without breaking rotations. WAR can cheese so much here by replacing a FC with Decimate each time adds spawn. Just like how summoners and scholars can Bane those adds. So Oppressor information should not be a good fight to use as measurement to be frank.

---

I also compared Thordan, where WAR did better. As for A1S, BLM actually comes out on top, because single target is superior there. I'd also advise against a SMN using bane on the adds, but that is another discussion. However, if you are curious, that top WAR did use Decimate and it contributed to 3% of their damage.

Quote:

---

FFLogs in general is a very bad a tool to measure DPS, imo. A lot of the top numbers in there only happen if the whole team agrees to pad a single member's DPS, meaning they come up with strategies that caters that that 1 person's strengths to make sure that they do the most DPS possible at the expense of other people's DPS. Heck, to pad our healer's HPS on Faust for lols, we had the WAR tank the adds while facing them towards the group (getting the group cleaved lol). At the same time, the WAR kept spamming Overpower and I actually used Bane... So much padding opportunities for laughs and kicks.

---

I already addressed the concern of FFLogs top tier players. They do have percentiles, and I showed the difference in each bracket - including the bottom 10th percentile. Not everyone on FFLogs is working to pad numbers.

Quote:

---

Take A2S for example, with the way my group does it, no matter how I personally spin my CDs and rotations, or who I DoT first, I never broke the 2030 DPS. Simple because they cater to a more single target DPS heavy group. We run a monk + DRK + MCH, so I don't have Foe's at my disposal either. Mobs are rarely stacked in an optimal way where I can bane from a 5 vulnerability stacked mob to the rest.. And when they are, the other mobs are already dying because everyone's DPS is near the 2K DPS. On the other hand, we could've strategized to prioritize stacking invulnerability while mobs stack so I can DoT first, I could also wait for bombs to spawn before I Bane and/or Deathflare, and I would easily break the 2400 DPS. Actually a few weeks ago, I stopped using SMN in there and started using BLM since our strategy is really more priority target focused than AoE oriented. (Granted I used SMN the last couple of weeks because otherwise I wouldn't use my Gordian weapon :p).

---

I don't fully understand the relevance of this paragraph.

Quote:

---

TL;DR: FFlogs is not a good indicator for class DPS balance.

---

I don't think you made a good argument against that. Have you looked at the statistics which look at various percentiles? You are actually around the 75% percentile for SMN on that fight, http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=19&class=Any (75th percentile for SMN is 2083).

Quote:

---

As for single target and AoE balance percentages like you posted, I don't necessarily agree. Mainly because I believe it shouldn't be a matter of individual DPS, but raid DPS. You have NIN doing more ST than DRG when NIN brings, by far, the most utility out of DPS jobs after BRD/MCH.

---

DRG brings the most raid DPS, which is why I had it lower than NIN, and I had both NIN/DRG lower than MNK due to their utility.

Quote:

---

Another problem in your approach to DPS balance, is what if you end up with a group that has only the lowest guys in there? So AST+WHM and PLD+DRK and BRD/MCH/SMN/BLM?

---

I am not 100% sure I see the problem with that. That said, we currently have similar issues at the beginning of raid tiers already.

Quote:

---

Also on what bases should BLM be lower than DRG and NIN? BLM has no means to increase anyone else's DPS like DRG and NIN do. You basically are asking for BLM to not be competitive at all since all 3 melees are better and the utility of BRD and MCH are indispensable. As it stands, BLM should be doing exactly the same DPS as MNK. Why? Well, MNK can't leave target or he drops stacks, BLM can't move or he drops Enochian. MNK is risky because melee. BLM is still risky because movement (and dodging) hurts DPS. MNK only has some defensive utility, so does BLM. MNK does not increase raid DPS, same as BLM. Raid contribution should remain the same! But then MNK "can" run out TP, BLM can refill MP indefinitely. I guess BLM has to pay a bit of DPS for that as a price.

---

BLM should be lower due to higher AoE and the ability to sustain DPS much more easily with MP regen vs TP outages. There is also the factor that they are ranged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Instrumentality

I too would like to raid with four monks in my raid group.

If this was sane it would be more like MNK/BLM 100% > DRG 98% > NIN/SMN 96% > etc.

---

That makes sense, and I appreciate your input on it. I was just throwing out numbers and didn't calculate anything. It was more to give an order in terms of DPS and a comparative value between DPS and tanks. If people are concerned over the precision, I can edit my original post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alahra

They did say the numbers were only meant to give a general scope.

---

Thank you for understanding.

I don't understand why we even have to compete for class damage ratios since this is ultimately a co-operative game. You're not even supposed to be fighting your team mates for whoever has the bigger sword(d*ck).

Nerfing tank contribution to miniscule amounts ultimately just hurts everyone. I mean, whats the point? Just so the DPS can be the actual players in the fight and tanks and healers are reduced to sidekicks whom are only there to glorify the DPS classes?
I don't understand why we can't even have anything above half of what a DPS can do. Something considerably significant.

Like if you were a party of four adventurers going up against a fearsome dragon of ultimate death and you(the edgy thief with 1000 knives of dark bloodshed) want your Knight(a warrior armed to the friggin teeth for BATTLE) to wield a pool noodle because his sword detracts from your narutoxsasukexichigo awesomeness.

We've all seen what the strict trinity did. 5 Billion year DPS queue times because only a comparatively small handful of people liked being just an immovable object(no offense to you guys, you guys are still cool) that frankly was there just so that everyone else could play.

I'm quite sure most people like the idea of y'know, actually feeling like they're contributing to defeating the enemy. Y'know for those times when your thief and archer are probably completely worthless, it'd be a good idea for the knight to pull out his sword and plunge it into the heart of the dragon while the cleric clubs the f*** out of the dragon's brain.

Back when I first joined FFXIV in 2.0 I was pretty new to MMO's in general having no clue what class roles or the trinity was. I chose WAR because I frankly adore axes and like the idea of a durable fighter that challenges enemies head on! I wondered what enmity meant in my tooltips and assumed it was either some cool latin flavour or some unknown cool debuff I place on the enemies. My first Satasha run I wondered why my job icon was a different color to everyone else. Eventually as I levelled up I understood the concept of tanking and enjoyed what the role had to offer. As such being a newbie I went with the mindset that I should focus on that role and that is to tank. Tanking in of itself is fun and challenging but as I played more I never really felt like I was important. I mean, it didn't help that people were always finding ways to Solo tank content or even go as far as to replace tanks altogether with titan-egi. Being felt like I was only a neccessity until a certain point and figured welp... I guess that's tanking. But then I learned that tanks had the potential to actually contribute to a fight. That's when I felt like the fighter. That's when I really really enjoyed tanking as a whole.

I can do damage. I can take a hit. I can FIGHT.

EVEN IF YOU GIVE ME A POOLNOODLE I'M GOING TO JUMP ON THAT DRAGON AND BITE ITS THROAT, SHREDDING ITS JUGULAR VEIN AND THEN PROCEED TO EAT ITS HEART.

triggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredDo you even know what a real tank does? It's an armored vehicular with a friggin CANNON on it that blows things up.triggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggeredtriggered