Why do so many people FAIL at dps.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I think they do it on purpose to keep threads like this alive on the official forums.

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Where would we be as a community without the same boring topics being dredged up multiple times a week!? They are heroes.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I said what I had to say to defend myself from someone who kept attacking me at log numbers which BTW I was *not* asked to have up for other people to see and judge me because I wouldn't wear a full strength accessories just cause, yes, you can do *all content in full strength* and have only 20k health, but will your *healers* like you. Will your group like you? If that healer missed that heal or cooldown and you died from a tankbuster, who do they blame, *the tank* for not having a cooldown and if you said you used a cooldown, where does that lead, back to the healer which stresses them out and ends them up leaving the group. But clearly now you are bashing at my skill level for wearing vit for those *clears*. I'm done talking with you now and back at the topic at hand on why dps is *lazy* on doing dps when they need to dps in dungeons.

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No one is "attacking" you. Someone first made a rebuttal based on your claims of producing high tier DPS, then criticised your flippant "STR R ELITIST" remark. While that may not have been the intent, you didn't articulate it well. In any event, you're ignoring the point referenced: that perhaps the MCH you mentioned found using barrel hindered his/her group more than it benefited all due to their current skill level.

This thread essentially boils down to, "play the most optimal way possible to maximize DPS." If you're going to criticise DPS for perceived subpar performance, then you have to be willing to acknowledge STR is better than VIT for a direct damage perspective. You can't ignore context for one scenario, not the other.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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So, you just proved how the game shows you how to play, and then downplayed it by basically saying that it only does so if the player puts forth some effort on their own. Reading the tooltips is the fundamental way to learn how skills chain together. Every job (as far as I can remember; it's been a couple years since I leveled them) has a nice little help window that describes how the intricacies of the job operates.

Monk help tells you about Greased Lightning
Black Mage help tells you about Astral Fire and Umbral Ice
Ninja help tells you about your Mudras

I'm speaking off the cuff here, so forgive me if I don't capture all the ways the game tells you how and what to do in order to be a decent player. The tooltips specifically show how utilizing positionals will net you higher potency attacks and other additional effects. The game highlights and makes sparkle the next ability that is an option for your current ability chain. For Monk, I know that you have a couple paths and that you have to weave your abilities together following buff timers and such. Figuring that out isn't nearly as difficult as people make it seem to be. We're not arguing that people aren't topping charts with the world's best opener and such. But if you were a Monk in my party and you were using Fists of Earth instead of Fists of Fire, and your response to being questioned was "I do what I want" I'd feel the urge to quickly remove you from my party. Claiming ignorance that one didn't know which buff increased their damage is a shallow excuse at that.

This is like a Dark Knight refusing to use Darkside because it "makes [his] MP drain too fast" as if that isn't the whole mechanic to that skill, and the effective use of it is what makes a Dark Knight, a Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I said what I had to say to defend myself from someone who kept attacking me at log numbers which BTW I was *not* asked to have up for other people to see and judge me because I wouldn't wear a full strength accessories just cause, yes, you can do *all content in full strength* and have only 20k health, but will your *healers* like you. Will your group like you? If that healer missed that heal or cooldown and you died from a tankbuster, who do they blame, *the tank* for not having a cooldown and if you said you used a cooldown, where does that lead, back to the healer which stresses them out and ends them up leaving the group. But clearly now you are bashing at my skill level for wearing vit for those *clears*. I'm done talking with you now and back at the topic at hand on why dps is *lazy* on doing dps when they need to dps.

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I am not bashing at you for anything, I am simply contributing to the discussion at hand and drawing parallels between the STR/VIT issue and your original topic.

Whether your healers like you or not depends on the healers. When I heal progression, I tell my tanks to wear as much STR as they can (given the level of tank busters and gear level). For reference, I mained SCH for all of 2.x and have mained SMN, but also played SCH/WHM for various ex primal runs in 3.x.

As for being lazy, I said in my last post why that Gauss Barrel may have been less about being lazy, and more about doing what worked best for them.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of bad players and players who simply refuse to play well. Some who are too lazy to read tooltips or quest text to learn the basics, and so on. I am not trying to suggest that given the information at hand, you are the bottom of the barrel lowest skilled and laziest player; however, I am saying that some people who you are suggesting are may have had reasons similar to your own for wearing VIT.

I'd like to circle this back to this quote

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

who do they blame

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That is the kicker isn't it. I have found from personal experience, and from reading various articles and discussions, that there seems to be a correlation between people 'blaming' something and their skill level. That is to say, it seems that the less skilled a player is, the more likely they are to pass blame on to others. This is a defense technique due to feeling threatened. There is an article that touches on this topic; however, it specifically looks at sexism in games and where men are more likely to be sexist against female players if they are less skilled. The conclusion was drawn that they are more likely to feel threatened, and in order to protect their ego they put the female players down. I'd venture a guess that this conclusion can be drawn on a larger scale with my above hypothesis "the less skilled a player is, the more likely they are to pass blame on to others".

Here is a link to the study if anyone is interested: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0131613

Conclusion: I would not be very concerned about people passing blame, as it's very likely they are the ones at fault. Instead, focus on working together to overcome obstacles, and see how you can work synergistically instead.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Where would we be as a community without the same boring topics being dredged up multiple times a week!? They are heroes.

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Well what would life be without reruns?

OP complains about bad dps and claims they can pick up any class and maximize its potential, yet buys Thordan EX carries. Seems legit -_- It's a game by the way, why you getting your panties in a bunch over dps not being max potential when you can't even do it consistently yourself? Oh nvm I know why, *cough* attention *cough cough*

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

that perhaps the MCH you mentioned found using barrel hindered his/her group more than it benefited all due to their current skill level.

This thread essentially boils down to, "play the most optimal way possible to maximize DPS." If you're going to criticise DPS for perceived subpar performance, then you have to be willing to acknowledge STR is better than VIT for a direct damage perspective. You can't ignore context for one scenario, not the other.

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I guess that mage spamming fire 3 blizzard 3 is the most optimal way of possible to maximize their dps. I guess that dps using his afk macro dps skills is optimal for that void ark raid or better yet, afk auto attacking. My tanking and acknowledgement of strength vs vit has nothing to do with dps being lazy in this thread.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

OP complains about bad dps and claims they can pick up any class and maximize its potential, yet buys Thordan EX carries. Seems legit -_- It's a game by the way, why you getting your panties in a bunch over dps not being max potential when you can't even do it consistently yourself? Oh nvm I know why, *cough* attention *cough cough*

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Now you are just a troll, the term "being carried" stands for more then one thing. *roll eyes*

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Originally Posted by Klamor

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While the descriptions are helpful, without anyway to gauge the numerical result, it can lead to misinterpretation. In fairness, Dragoon is probably a better example due to how specific its rotation can be. You have to remember this game is designed to entirely new MMO players who aren't going to be as accustom to the grind and research needed to optimize their job. That said, I didn't mean to downplay it per se, just that directly forcing players into scenarios where they had to learn rotations and whatnot would be a better guide for job quests than "go here and fight this thing." Would also be more fun, in my opinion at least. I've always wished the open world portion of the game didn't let you slack off so much, but that's just me.

A lot of this would be mitigated if people at parser of their own DPS, but only they could see it.

These threads are always a hoot to read, if nothing else. There's a reason people can't stop coming to the official forums.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

These threads are always a hoot to read, if nothing else. There's a reason people can't stop coming to the official forums.

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Cause this topic gets brought up alot and its true, there's a reason why faust-sensei is being made by the devs cause they know its *true* and they want to fix it so the people that are lazy can learn to play class better and know the ins and outs of their class as well. The game doesn't touch you your skills, they just give them to you and say "welp there you go, have fun". In the level 1-49, dps is not really cared, but when you enter the level 50+ dungeons, some dungeons do, when you enter the 60 dungeons, it is cared. By that time, the devs expect for you to know your class.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I guess that mage spamming fire 3 blizzard 3 is the most optimal way of possible to maximize their dps. I guess that dps using his afk macro dps skills is optimal for that void ark raid or better yet, afk auto attacking. My tanking and acknowledgement of strength vs vit has nothing to do with dps being lazy in this thread.

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Yes, because that is what my post insinuated. It's not like STR tanking has been proven so efficient that it's getting patched or anything. So of course it's comparable to an ice mage.

TL;DR - OP pulling barely subpar dps him/herself meets a woefully bad dps.

ITT: A bad DPS tries to call out other bad DPS while remaining woefully unaware of the hypocrisy.

Nothing new on the forums.

Yes but the OP has REASONS for bad DPS (common things like being dead, bad gear etc) whereas no one else from the df could possibly have reasons nearly as important....

OPs reasons count - everyone else just has excuses...

:D

For every reply I post in these forums, I should deserve a +1 stat, customizable to whatever stat I want.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Too easy, just too easy. one, I was MT'ing *every single clear* listed (which doesn't tell you that) two, I was wasn't wearing *full strength* like every other warrior out there, i'm a *vit* warrior(you know, the tanks that wear health) and I wasn't sitting in dps stance tanking thordin in full strength like every other warrior, 4, I don't have tons of gil to make or buy melded accessories to min/max my tanking.

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Erm. Your WAR parses are below some of my PLD parses. I MT and only leave Shield Oath when nothing is hitting me (Zephirin's first appearance and meteor phase). Even given that you're full VIT (I wear pentamelds because I find that full Slaying leaves me with uncomfortably low HP and puts stress on the healers), with the tools WAR has to maximize damage you should be higher.

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Again, you are just picking out the piece to use something for fire. The numbers you are pulling don't even tell the event of the fight let alone the deaths involved, but keep on thinking those logs the ends to the means of all evidence that happened those days to counter claim and prove your point.

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The fact of the matter is, you made some very elitist statements pertaining to other DPS players in your original post. You claimed that you can just pick up a DPS class and maximize its potential, and further stated that it's easy to do so. I mean... seriously? I feel that I'm pretty decent as a monk, but I won't come running to the official forums basically claiming to be the Queen of Monks and that I can poop out maximum DPS on it. I think you're confusing "I know my rotation and am passably competent on the class," with "I know how to fully maximize DPS." Anyone that reads tooltips and takes the time to figure out how the skills fit together on the most basic level can be passably competent at a class. Maximizing DPS takes time, practice, and gear.

Some logs have been posted that provided some evidence to refute your claim, but instead of countering with evidence of your own (maybe there's more logs that you can upload where you're performing better?) you're making excuses why the logs that were posted shouldn't be admissible, as it were. I don't see how "I died," "I'm not very well geared," or "I was being carried" are valid excuses for bad DPS when you're making a claim like that though. Not getting yourself killed is part of maximizing DPS. Gearing properly is part of maximizing DPS. It should go without saying that if you're maximizing your DPS, you are pulling your own weight.

I have to agree with the poster a couple of pages ago that mentioned glass houses and stones.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

. By that time, the devs expect for you to know your class.

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So know your class? It takes all of ten seconds to open up your actions tab and look over your skills. Even if you refuse to use any guides, it takes all of 3 minutes to read all your actions and put together a reasonably decent rotation. Fine tuning would need to be done but the basics would at least be done.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Well what would life be without reruns?

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This is the equivalent of looking for something good to watch on TV, and finding only re-runs of Jerry Springer.

Here's a fine example. I play a Dragoon and I love it. But nowhere in the skills/actions/job traits does it teach you anything about double-weaving your global cooldown skills with your oGCD skills in order to really push your DPS. It teaches you nothing about rotation nor cross class skills that would help. So you get into this pattern of pushing buttons with the outlined square thinking that's what the game wants you to do to maximize your DPS, and you end up doing WORSE as a result.

this thread is porcorn worthy .....

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads...n-GIF.gif?gs=a

Clearly you guys fell into OP's bait. This here is a troll thread.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Actually no, evidence was presented to dispute the OP's claims that they were a good DPS, when in actuality, that doesn't look to be true, making this thread a hypocritical mess.

But hey, we all know you're absolutely chomping at the bit to start on the anti-parser rants again.

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Actually no, take that chip off your shoulder before it crushes you. Your final statement shows that you *don't* in fact read my posts regarding parses, however my views on that topic are neither here nor there. I was hoping that the poster I replied to might take that link out because it seemed that posting it could fall under naming/shaming and using information from a third party tool to harass another player.

But hey, you try to do something nice, you try to warn someone that their post could be used against them, and instead someone jumps down your throat about something not even discussed in this topic - and does so erroneously at that. Great. Thanks, for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

So you get into this pattern of pushing buttons with the outlined square thinking that's what the game wants you to do to maximize your DPS, and you end up doing WORSE as a result.

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I was trying to explain to an old fc mate how to get better at drg, and they didn't realize that you could even use off-GCDs in between attacks, as they thought it broke their combo chain. Now if you play long enough you realize that's not the case, but to your point it doesn't show you stuff like that. I think the *problem* most people have is, like others have said, there's nothing to really push your abilities as a player while leveling up. I mean, a single tank and healer can complete every low level dungeon, you don't even need a dps. It will take a long time, sure, but it can still be done, that's how little effort is actually required of a dps while leveling.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Here's a fine example. I play a Dragoon and I love it. But nowhere in the skills/actions/job traits does it teach you anything about double-weaving your global cooldown skills with your oGCD skills in order to really push your DPS. It teaches you nothing about rotation nor cross class skills that would help. So you get into this pattern of pushing buttons with the outlined square thinking that's what the game wants you to do to maximize your DPS, and you end up doing WORSE as a result.

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But missing something like double oGCD weave doesn't lead to a DPS defeceit of 400+, or +10 minutes to a dungeon run.

There's no realization that there's a line between people who can dps adequately, people who sandbag, and people who go beyond adequate.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Erm. Your WAR parses are below some of my PLD parses. I MT and only leave Shield Oath when nothing is hitting me (Zephirin's first appearance and meteor phase). Even given that you're full VIT (I wear pentamelds because I find that full Slaying leaves me with uncomfortably low HP and puts stress on the healers), with the tools WAR has to maximize damage you should be higher.

The fact of the matter is, you made some very elitist statements pertaining to other DPS players in your original post. You claimed that you can just pick up a DPS class and maximize its potential, and further stated that it's easy to do so. I mean... seriously? I feel that I'm pretty decent as a monk, but I won't come running to the official forums basically claiming to be the Queen of Monks and that I can poop out maximum DPS on it. I think you're confusing "I know my rotation and am passably competent on the class," with "I know how to fully maximize DPS." Anyone that reads tooltips and takes the time to figure out how the skills fit together on the most basic level can be passably competent at a class. Maximizing DPS takes time, practice, and gear.

Some logs have been posted that provided some evidence to refute your claim, but instead of countering with evidence of your own (maybe there's more logs that you can upload where you're performing better?) you're making excuses why the logs that were posted shouldn't be admissible, as it were. I don't see how "I died," "I'm not very well geared," or "I was being carried" are valid excuses for bad DPS when you're making a claim like that though. Not getting yourself killed is part of maximizing DPS. Gearing properly is part of maximizing DPS. It should go without saying that if you're maximizing your DPS, you are pulling your own weight.

I have to agree with the poster a couple of pages ago that mentioned glass houses and stones.

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Him posting my log numbers is name shaming and is very rude and is against the rules of the board, those numbers don't show anything but numbers, they don't show skills used, cooldowns used and on on, just numbers at the end of the fight when I main tanked, not the overall.

I may seem elitist with my comment "picking up something and bringing out the max dps" of that class if I pick it up. Yes, I am wrong on that, it takes *time* to learn the dps class but at least i'm putting *effort* on doing just *that*, what I had doing those misuse logs was due to deaths, rez sickness or due to gear, reasons why any dps can be low in the dps logs at the end of the fight which should not have hold water with a argument towards me. But what I am not doing is refusing to not use skills cause I'm lazy on not using it in general, example, a monk only boostrap/twin snakes/ demolish combo string spam repeatedly while not moving a single spot, no death touch, no snap punch, no dragon kick. Or a mage just using a macro to do his spells to spam 1 fire/ice 1 or fire 3/blizzard 3 back to back, or a brd just spamming heavy shot and straight shot and bloodletter etc etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Some logs have been posted that provided some evidence to refute your claim, but instead of countering with evidence of your own (maybe there's more logs that you can upload where you're performing better?)

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Posting dps logs is against the ToS of these forums and I do not have a dps meter and I refuse to install it cause people like him using it as a weapon for people who wish to speak out about people wanting to be lazy while dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

you're making excuses why the logs that were posted shouldn't be admissible, as it were. I don't see how "I died," "I'm not very well geared," or "I was being carried" are valid excuses for bad DPS when you're making a claim like that though. Not getting yourself killed is part of maximizing DPS. Gearing properly is part of maximizing DPS. It should go without saying that if you're maximizing your DPS, you are pulling your own weight.

I have to agree with the poster a couple of pages ago that mentioned glass houses and stones.

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When a dps is undergeared for thordin and dies doing dive bomb cause he got no heals or not enough heals, its his fault for not maximizing dps? what? By your statement if a dps dies to unavoidable aoe damage its his fault wither hes geared or not, but still, my statement stays even if you guys can say what you want and bash on my undergeared dps or my MT dps(which I cleared on), it doesn't change the fact there are *lazy* dps that is *ARE* properly geared, not die and but will not care on properly on using their dps skills, haven't learn it or refuse to learn. They just push buttons so lights glow.

So go ahead, keep bringing up those logs and keep commenting on my low undergeared dps and low main tanking dps but all in all, you aren't saying *anything* towards the topic at hand on people who don't wish to learn to try to do their best at their dps class.

That hole...


It's deep.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

So go ahead, keep bringing up those logs and keep commenting on my low undergeared dps and low main tanking dps but all in all, you aren't saying *anything* towards the topic at hand on people who don't wish to learn to try to do their best at their dps class.

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But.... everything that has been said so far -HAS- been towards the topic of people who don't wish to learn to try their best and do better DPS...

It's just that the people being referenced in this case happen to be you.

Funny that.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

When a dps is undergeared for thordin and dies doing dive bomb cause he got no heals or not enough heals, its his fault for not maximizing dps? what? By your statement if a dps dies to unavoidable aoe damage its his fault wither hes geared or not, but still, my statement stays even if you guys can say what you want and bash on my undergeared dps or my MT dps(which I cleared on), it doesn't change the fact there are *lazy* dps that is *ARE* properly geared, not die and but will not care on properly on using their dps skills, haven't learn it or refuse to learn. They just push buttons so lights glow.

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Quit throwing things out of context. There's no reason for you to be dying to avoidable damage if you care about not being a waste of a party slot. The person you're replying to isn't even talking about deaths in general (which at times can be out of your control), but deaths that you yourself caused (Not getting yourself killed). On top of that, being undergeared is a liability to your survival anyway, and on top of that Thordan has a Ilvl requirement so unless you're boosting your Ilvl with accessories (which is a different problem), you can't be undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

those numbers don't show anything but numbers, they don't show skills used, cooldowns used and on on, just numbers at the end of the fight when I main tanked, not the overall.

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Actually, they do show all the skills you used and when you used them. How much damage you take and from what abilities and when. TP and MP efficiency, interrupts, etc etc. A bunch of stuff, really.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Posting dps logs is against the ToS of these forums and I do not have a dps meter and I refuse to install it cause people like him using it as a weapon for people who wish to speak out about people wanting to be lazy while dpsing.

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it *would* be *a* crime *for* someone *to* want to *use* some *sort* of *dps* meter as a *weapon* against someone, wouldn't *it*?

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I can't wait for them to add faust-sensei so I can see their dps just to boot them on bad dps/damage before doing any content.

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I strongly *advise* you to *consider* going from *a* glass *house* to *plastic*


...how is "getting carried" not "being lazy while DPSing"?

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

stuff from the OP

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Didn't look much beyond this post.. not really necessary, but uh..

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/w...ats%20bait.gif

Intelligent posters use Logic and Evidence!
OP is confused!
OP hurt himself in his confusion!

Plis for God's sake. I wish that the new content on 3.2 helps a lot to end this nonscence war of good/bad players.

There is a huge skill range on dps jobs.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

so I can see their dps just to boot them on bad dps/damage before doing any content.

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And this is the problem with people's attitudes. Crap attitudes like yours only serve to run people out of the game. Don't be a douche. Also, controller has nothing to do with anything, so good job looking ignorant and stupid on that front, as well.

You know what, I'm done. You guys want to twist my words, use dps logs against me and call me a troll, whatever, i'm done, to the people who agreed with me. thank you, we all see those type of people in like the void ark and crystal tower and so on, to the people that kept attacking me or tried to be passive aggressive towards me

I hate all.

Nobody sucks. How dare you suggest that they're doing anything poorly. Paying a sub means they can play how they want; it's their own style so chill, you elitist. The game is nourished by the lifeblood of casual players, not the 1%. Gosh. http://i.imgur.com/ScBJQ4z.png

NA Datacenter Problems.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

You know what, I'm done. You guys want to twist my words, use dps logs against me and call me a troll, whatever, i'm done, to the people who agreed with me. thank you, we all see those type of people in like the void ark and crystal tower and so on, to the people that kept attacking me or tried to be passive aggressive towards me

I hate all.

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That's... not very magicy friendshippy of you. :\

Because dps clock mechanics is the easiest mechanic to code into a boss probably.

Oh, bad dungeon wise is probably cause its a dungeon... No one likes running those things anymore and is typically lazy through them. Must have something to do with having to grind through them hundreds of times. It's not like a raid or primal where you can jump into some challenging content, have some fun, and hop out.