Yoshi - Players who "Like" Challenges would ALSO like to obtain a Relic Weapon

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Problem: they aren't awesome or special in any way.

They have a unique model but other than that they are just a run of the mill item with an item level of [X] that gets invalidated every patch that brings a new item level [x+10].

Imho: long time grinds + obsolete at the next DEVs convenience don't mix.

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That's the thing, relic is the only thing NOT obsolete. It's the only piece of gear that upgrades, while thordan will forever be 205 and gordian will always be 210, and esoteric weapons will be uncapped in 3.2, the relic will be upgradable to somewhere between 220-240 in 2.25. And if 2.25 comes out as fast as 2.15, itll only be a few weeks after 3.2. The one thing I would really like to see though is customizable bonus stats, that would make it stand out even more as the relic can have optimal bonus stats while tomestone wpn might not.

All weapons are obsolete. The raiding weapons don't upgrade - if you want to progress you sink another couple months into learning the new raid. The EX trial drops are the same way, slightly lower than the raid because it takes less time to learn one fight. The relic takes the amount of time to grind as it does to clear a raid (granted, there's a distribution of raid clear times and grind times, but I think the mean time for both is similar). The rewards are similar: raid weapons need to be replaced every couple months, the new raid is gated behind the old. Relic weapons need to be maintained, the new grind gated behind the old.

The only way to keep your weapons relevant longer as new content comes out is to play more casual content and less of the bleeding edge that requires it. Wait until weapons strong enough to do the raids easily (without the grind) drop from casual content a year down the line. Getting the best weapon for the most +1 hard raid right now is probably not for you

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Considering the 2.x relics remained best in slot until level 59, and they were good for at least six months to a year prior to that, I think the argument of "it'll only be good for two months" is kind of flat.

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this it one of the worst falsehoods I have seen in a good while. zeta stopped being good around lvl 54-55, where it was getting trumped by things with higher wep dmg and stats. reminds me of the tank who didnt upgrade his gear at all in library.

The one thing I was looking forward to (anima) is not only an insanely ridiculous time sink of epic proportions but they've confirmed that it's already going to be outdated in 2.0. This letter confirmed my worst fears and was the nail in the coffin for me. I don't have a job and as such can spend insane amounts of time in game- but only if it's *fun and rewarding* That aspect is gone for me.

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Originally Posted by Cwestcott18

There are plenty of other things to do other than these weapons for fun

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There is other fun content, so is ok then to make boring lazy content.

Ok.

People keep saying this is WAY to MUCH...

I play 1-2 hours day. currently sitting at 11/80 1 week out of patch. so in 8 weeks I will be done. My only issue is I'm losing out on my leveling of other jobs right now. But after 8 Weeks if I'm done great I can go back to leveling jobs.

Also 8 Weeks doesn't seem like an overly long time.

To be honest the dumbest thing about what he said regarding rewards for challenging content vs. rewards for time investment/grind is that Savage probably requires more time investment/grind than this relic.

@Reilyn, you failed to quote the rest of what I said and then said I didn't bring a single decent argument forward. Please don't quote snippets and ignore the rest of what was said.

The OP suggests things like extreme trials, yet you can already do these as a way to obtain your relic if you really wanted to. The fact you can even buy unidentified items with tomes gives people a HUGE window with what content they want to do since dungeons, trials, raids, hunts and maps all drop them.

The last relic was mostly a linear 'do this, do this', and now they've actually given some choice, people are still complaining and wanting more.

We already have a choice and an option.

Also, something not harming the game doesn't validate it to be automatically implemented.

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Originally Posted by Harz

To be honest the dumbest thing about what he said regarding rewards for challenging content vs. rewards for time investment/grind is that Savage probably requires more time investment/grind than this relic.

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Not that dumb. Not right now i grant you that, but is getting damn close.

And the issue here is that you can`t convert challenge into time. How much time is a A4S kill. 2 days? 4 months? How do you measure? You just grab how much the statics with kills have took since the raid opend and then you add the rest of the stage and normalize them? What kind of conversion is that even?

If we continue this trend, and with latest statement of SE it will surely continue as they have failed tremendously at seeing the issue here (they basically thing we are worried about iLevel... lel) i wouldn`t find rare future stages of relic being on par of the raid weapons themselves.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Some people in my FC got their Relics in just 4 days. With some teamwork and planning it is not that bad.

Aside from that, Relics were only meant to fill in the niche of Grindy Content for people who like that kind of stuff.

Alex Savage = first set of 210 Weapons available (challenge and skill party content)
Relic = 2nd set of 210 Weapons (Grind and Solo)
Void Ark God Dip = 3rd set of 210 (Much later 210 weapons requires no challenge Just upgrade the Eso weapon)

I don't think it is the Relic Quest that is the problem, just entitled players not understanding what niche it fills.

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and why should these highly desired ff items be limited to acquisition by a grind niche playerbase?

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Very few people have the time to conquer the hardest challenges in the game AND complete the relic questilne....
....An alternate path might be "Complete all of the Extreme Primal Trials and the Binding Coil of bahamut without echco and under their original item level caps."...

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Simply why not just ask reward a relic after A4S clear for what Players who "Like" challenges would ALSO like to obtain Relic Weapon?
So they can conquer the hardest challenges in the game AND complete the relic questline at the same time. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Felmyst

You miss out the point. This is something you do on a year. And if you support this game. If you play other stuff well keep crying (rofl). However... the requirements for this one is way over the board.

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Uhhh... a 3.15 relic was not meant to be done in a year. There will be another patch with another set of relic requirements in 3.25 - which will be here mush sooner than a year out.

Also, I think what people are arguing is that we don't want to grind the same crap we've been grinding since PRE-expansion to get a Heavensward relic and that there should be some different options for obtaining it.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

@Reilyn, you failed to quote the rest of what I said and then said I didn't bring a single decent argument forward. Please don't quote snippets and ignore the rest of what was said.

The OP suggests things like extreme trials, yet you can already do these as a way to obtain your relic if you really wanted to. The fact you can even buy unidentified items with tomes gives people a HUGE window with what content they want to do since dungeons, trials, raids, hunts and maps all drop them.

The last relic was mostly a linear 'do this, do this', and now they've actually given some choice, people are still complaining and wanting more.

We already have a choice and an option.

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A choice and option no one will do because it doesn't reward anyone more for the time and effort than the alternative easier methods.

That's like giving a person the 'choice' of either sweeping a floor for $10, or going 12 rounds vs tyson for $10. What do you think the person will opt to do?

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

My suggestion is to put larger material rewards behind something at least as difficult as A1S; something that you know not everyone can do, or is willing to do. It'll still take alot of time for much of the player base, just like titan hm was back in 2.0 while still leaving the alternative grind path in tact.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Also, something not harming the game doesn't validate it to be automatically implemented.

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Dismissing the OP by saying we already have a choice without even mentioning the effort : reward not being in line makes what you say any better how...?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Coil drops law or poetics depending on which turn you complete. Ravana and Bismarck Ex drop law and older Extremes drop poetics. There is already a midcore solution to your problem. You don't have to do a single Alex NM or hunt or daily quest or map.

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Older extreme primals give 20 poetics. Coil gives 10 to 30. So that's 2,720 to 900 runs for only half the items. Bismarck and Ravana EX give 15 and 20 law respectively. That's 1,360 to 1,810 runs for the other half.

How is that a midcore solution?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I thought people didn't mind the grind taking long. That's what everyone keeps saying. So are they in fact asking for a quick way past the grind? Cause that would defeat the purpose of the relic...

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Reilyn wasn't talking about the length of time for the current grind. They were talking to your 'midcore solution' which isn't really comparable to the current options to gather the unidentified items.

Yeah, not going to beat around the bush, they completely, 100% focused on the wrong part of what the problem with relic is. And I'm starting to feel this is intentional. It's an unmotivated garbage grind for garbage that gives them an excuse to not deliver anything to the game again for two months or so.

Why can't it just at least cater to both in different ways? Keep your high-resource, low-effort path in, but let people do challenging content to go a bit faster in it. You motivate people to do well in the game that way while keeping something for the casuals. Nobody loses.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

An alternate path might be "Complete all of the Extreme Primal Trials and the Binding Coil of bahamut without echco and under their original item level caps."

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These 'challenges' would just be side stepped by people buying runs. It's best people just run alex 800 times instead if they actually want one. Also, those particular runs wouldn't actually be all that challenging unless was doing it in duty finder with strangers.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

These 'challenges' would just be side stepped by people buying runs. It's best people just run alex 800 times instead if they actually want one.

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In that sense you can also effectively sell faster Alex clears with the strategy you mention. There's no less potential for abuse, and it would actually get people to run all content, not just the ones they're trying to force upon people.

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Originally Posted by Arashmin

Yeah, not going to beat around the bush, they completely, 100% focused on the wrong part of what the problem with relic is. And I'm starting to feel this is intentional. It's an unmotivated garbage grind for garbage that gives them an excuse to not deliver anything to the game again for two months or so.

Why can't it just at least cater to both in different ways? Keep your high-resource, low-effort path in, but let people do challenging content to go a bit faster in it. You motivate people to do well in the game that way while keeping something for the casuals. Nobody loses.

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That is what raiding is for.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

That's the thing, relic is the only thing NOT obsolete. It's the only piece of gear that upgrades, while thordan will forever be 205 and gordian will always be 210, and esoteric weapons will be uncapped in 3.2, the relic will be upgradable to somewhere between 220-240 in 2.25. And if 2.25 comes out as fast as 2.15, itll only be a few weeks after 3.2. The one thing I would really like to see though is customizable bonus stats, that would make it stand out even more as the relic can have optimal bonus stats while tomestone wpn might not.

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You can't be serious.

Where is the difference between:
Beat NEW boss / gather tomes in NEW content to acquire NEW weapon
Gring OLD content yet AGAIN for 1000x in order to "upgrade" the stats of your weapon

In both cases your efforts in Tier [x-1] are COMPLETELY invalidated (esp so if SE simplifies the earlier steps so peeps can catch up to the current grind step).
Only difference that makes you feel like you "keep your weapon" is that you get to keep the model... uh well a projection crystal can take care of that for a lot less mindnumbing grind.

If you think your relic will NOT be obsolete come the next patch you are simply lying to yourself.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

That is what raiding is for.

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You mean the raids that have inferior weapons for multiple jobs, inferior gear to diadem, doesn't give a title, and pretty much has very little to no motivation to get people to participate in them as is when they offer less progress for the effort toward the relic weapon compared to anything else? As if raid participation wasn't already suffering...

Still amusing that people are in opposition to this idea.

To whoever said that you can already do Extremes towards the Relic, well for one thing the Extremes only drop tomes. Hunts (Seals), Alex NM (Precision) and Beast Tribe (Tokens) drop tomes plus a reward unique to that content you can also use towards the Relic. Not exactly a 'choice' when one is not only far easier but offers more at the same time.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Still amusing that people are in opposition to this idea.

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I don't find it amusing. Anyone who directly opposes the original idea of the thread is pretty much saying 'being skilled shouldn't be rewarded more than those who take the easy route'.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

I don't find it amusing. Anyone who directly opposes the original idea of the thread is pretty much saying 'being skilled shouldn't be rewarded more than those who take the easy route'.

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Well being skilled and being lucky enough to find a competent & stable static raid group already rewards you: you get to see awesome bossfights others can only look up on youtube.

Seriously do you only raid because "ermagawd item levelz!1"?
I may be oldschool but in my 8 years of active raiding gear was more treated as a tool (unless pretty, then it was a must have :P ), a means to an end in order to defeat the next challenge instead of the sole motivation to push through the raiding ordeal. The true reward was the feeling of awesome when we as a group managed to kill the big bad that mopped the floor with us before.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Well being skilled and being lucky enough to find a competent & stable static raid group already rewards you: you get to see awesome bossfights others can only look up on youtube.

Seriously do you only raid because "ermagawd item levelz!1"?

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Ironically, I don't.

I chose to speak about the material rewards because after 8 years of MMOs, regardless of my drive to beat content just for the sake of beating it, you have to admit most people what the shiny stuff above all else. This is why I chose to speak from a perspective I know most players relate to; material rewards over the pure sense of fulfillment.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I may be oldschool but in my 8 years of active raiding gear was more treated as a tool (unless pretty, then it was a must have :P ), a means to an end in order to defeat the next challenge instead of the sole motivation to push through the raiding ordeal.

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You and I are the minority in this regard. Especially now when there aren't as much people who bother to take on alexander savage compared to earlier tiers.

With diadem, and relic, I see it as even more reasons for very many people to not pick up raiding. Self-satisfaction alone isn't enough to drive alot of people to raid.

I like the satisfaction of downing content most others can't, and I want to see more people raiding. But the sense of fufillment alone obviously isn't appealing enough for most other players that aren't me and you. Putting some of the best gear outside of raids isn't helping.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

You mean the raids that have inferior weapons for multiple jobs, inferior gear to diadem, doesn't give a title, and pretty much has very little to no motivation to get people to participate in them as is when they offer less progress for the effort toward the relic weapon compared to anything else? As if raid participation wasn't already suffering...

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you mean the raid that is already past content now?
the raid that rewarded the best gear in its life cycle?
the raid whose gear is only invalidated by future content and not by anything else in the patch it was released in?
when are people gonna stop complaining that future content gear is better than the previous content?

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

I don't find it amusing. Anyone who directly opposes the original idea of the thread is pretty much saying 'being skilled shouldn't be rewarded more than those who take the easy route'.

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That is why it's amusing. A suggestion that does no harm to those that like the existing method - yet is opposed anyway - does well to highlight the mentality of the current playerbase, as you've mentioned. Which is unfortunate really. It's only so long you can lower the bar until even those that like it become jaded and move onto something more engaging.

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Originally Posted by hagare

you mean the raid that is already past content now?

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I wasn't aware we already have a new raid, and alexander savage was hit with the nerf bat and the echo stick. My bad.

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Originally Posted by hagare

the raid that rewarded the best gear in its life cycle?
the raid whose gear is only invalidated by future content and not by anything else in the patch it was released in?
when are people gonna stop complaining that future content gear is better than the previous content?

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1: relic = content? That's funny
2: relic was delayed, and shoulda've been released much earlier anyway. Possibly around the time alexander savage for 'current content' by your standards

The entire basis of your response is formed from alex savage being outdated content, which is wrong, and I shouldn't have to elaborate on that further.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

I wasn't aware we already have a new raid, and alexander savage was hit with the nerf bat and the echo stick. My bad.



1: relic = content? That's funny
2: relic was intended for months ago anyway

The entire basis of your response is formed from alex savage being outdated content, which is wrong, and I shouldn't have to elaborate on that further.

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what patch was alex? what patch are we in again?
we are right now in a catch up patch. By that alone alex is outdated.
If you want to clear Alex the way it's supposed to, you are not suppose to do it wearing catch up gear.
nerfs? echo? is Coil Savage nerfed or echoed? Is it outdated content?

your entire basis is that alex is current content, which is wrong.
relic IS content. Just because you don't think it is, doesn't make it not content.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

I chose to speak about the material rewards because after 8 years of MMOs, regardless of my drive to beat content just for the sake of beating it, you have to admit most people what the shiny stuff above all else.

With diadem, and relic, I see it as even more reasons for very many people to not pick up raiding. Self-satisfaction alone isn't enough to drive alot of people to raid.

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Sad but true, yes. Most are in for the shiny carrot an that'S when friction starts to build within a given raid team when encounters stop going down easily.

Imho the #1 barrier to raiding is the need for scheduled play. That's also what ultimately drove me away from it after 8 years because no matter how fun (or frustrating at times) it can be I want to play according to how much and when I want to play and not be pressed into "you have to be online this evening for 4 hours or bust".
Add to that the mostly uncircumventable(is that even a word?^^) social drama you get from any group with mixed agendas...

No amount of rewards will change that.

But, I wholeheartedly agree that bleeding edge superhard content is entitled to unique and powerful rewards. Imho the old system in ARR worked very well. Raid gear was better, yes but not by an utterly crippling margin like it is in WoW where your character feels like broken trash if you do not raid at least heroic.
Bottable grind content like Diadem (never done it, the concept sounded mindnumbingly boring to me) should NEVER award gear anywhere close to raid level. That is just flat out wrong.

As for the relic: I see no harm in savage raiders being able to double dip and getting theirs faster. After all by the time they get it, they'll probably have access to better raid weapons anyway.

gotta go, read you reply later^^

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Originally Posted by hagare

you mean the raid that is already past content now?
the raid that rewarded the best gear in its life cycle?
the raid whose gear is only invalidated by future content and not by anything else in the patch it was released in?
when are people gonna stop complaining that future content gear is better than the previous content?

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Gordias is meant to last until 3.2, not become diminished gear wise by 3.1 (Diadem), an issue Yoshi himself admitted as an decision error. Catch up patches are meant to facilitate those either wanting high level gear (but unable to raid), or those that need further assistance towards clearing the raid. However, it's never meant to actually equal (or even potentially surpass) the raid gear, hence why it was always 5-10 ilvls below.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Gordias is meant to last until 3.2, not become diminished gear wise by 3.1 (Diadem), an issue Yoshi himself admitted as an decision error. Catch up patches are meant to facilitate those either wanting high level gear (but unable to raid), or those that need further assistance towards clearing the raid. However, it's never meant to actually equal (or even potentially surpass) the raid gear, hence why it was always 5-10 ilvls below.

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interesting.
When did he say this?
In the last live letter?

This relic isn't a challenge though, it's redundancy. Yes it has multiple ways to obtain, which it should, but the sheer amount of items needed makes this nothing more then a painful drag, even with the item/objective acquisition being 100% on the final two steps. The sad fact is this game has a lack of challenge associated with the relic, simply because the devs choices in how they have created content, it's pretty bad when Saint Mocianne's Arboretum was nerfed before we even got it and it's even worse to know that neither of the recent patch dungeons even play a role in the new relic. There is no challenge behind this relic only grinding all ready depleted old content.


We've been dealing with horrible development choices for this entire expansion. I mean the biggest patch was for Lords of Vermilion and look how that was such a failure, they could have taken that time to address the limited challenge with the game and made the tweaks to Savage that it desperately needs, make Void actually a threat or beefed up the open world content.

It's apparent to me that they don't understand that you can't keep going up, eventually you'll hit the ceiling. Eventually you need to build around otherwise you can't grow. If relic is meant to keep people in line for the next patch then honestly they should have just made it one step and that one step is light farming. Or just made the relic the only weapon you start with and through repeat use it grows with your character and make the raiding/primal weapons the only other two types of weapons in the game that you can use. After all the whole "let's just keep going up" progression ideology basically forces players to use either relic, raid or primal gear at a different item level in the end.

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Originally Posted by hagare

interesting.
When did he say this?
In the last live letter?

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Yes. I can't quote it due to being on my phone, but he said they put i210 gear in Diadem to lure people into doing it, and how in hindsight he should've made it i205 so that it retains initial objective without affecting Gordian gear.

I will prefer if SE save potential "Anima quest exclusive" trials up for the middle or for the end of the anima questline after the initial grind wall . So that people, who want to unlock the trials, do it because they also want the Anima and are willing to grind for the weapon and unlocking the trial as a bonus reward.

Like in the original 1.0 relic quests, where the relic exclusive trial fight (Ifrit extreme) got unlocked at the last step.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Yes. I can't quote it due to being on my phone, but he said they put i210 gear in Diadem to lure people into doing it, and how in hindsight he should've made it i205 so that it retains initial objective without affecting Gordian gear.

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Due to the fact that there are changes in the materia system in Patch 3.2, we know that there will be more of a demand for materia, and although there hasn’t been any issue with the amount distributed from item exchange, we were watching the amount of item level 210 gear being distributed. If it remained as is, it'd have further lessen the drive to complete raids so we had to introduce limitations.

As everyone’s feedback mentioned, we believe the optimal item level for gear obtained from exploratory missions should have been 205.

For the next exploratory missions, we would like to not only include balance adjustments, but feature more of the "exploration" aspect.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3494863

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Yes. I can't quote it due to being on my phone, but he said they put i210 gear in Diadem to lure people into doing it, and how in hindsight he should've made it i205 so that it retains initial objective without affecting Gordian gear.

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big whoops for them I guess
they really should stop defaulting to rewards when thinking how to make content interesting. sigh.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

This relic isn't a challenge though, it's redundancy. Yes it has multiple ways to obtain, which it should, but the sheer amount of items needed makes this nothing more then a painful drag, even with the item/objective acquisition being 100% on the final two steps. The sad fact is this game has a lack of challenge associated with the relic, simply because the devs choices in how they have created content, it's pretty bad when Saint Mocianne's Arboretum was nerfed before we even got it and it's even worse to know that neither of the recent patch dungeons even play a role in the new relic. There is no challenge behind this relic only grinding all ready depleted old content.

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yea....
though the big problem isn't really the grind but more that the grind is uninteresting.
it's just kill this get that, do Q get that etc etc etc.

Why couldn't they do something like kill X number of adds in any content for DPS, Take X number of tankbusters from any content for tanks, and heal X amount of number in any content.

or do something more involved with the mechanics in a fight like killing x number of butterflies in ravana, eat that sword slash skill from ravana 2 times, esuna the prey mechanics from T10 or other content that actually has you use it.

that way you'll have people doing old content and make the grind more interesting

My question is why did they have to use the esoteric weapon skins. Kinda kill the uniqueness.

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

My question is why did they have to use the esoteric weapon skins. Kinda kill the uniqueness.

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The anima weapons don't look like the eso weapons

Verethragna (MNK)
http://i.imgur.com/UKnYyEd.png

Or do you mean the weapons from the first 2 steps? That is because they are eso weapons with a soul (have also the same names). But the first Anima weapon you get after step 3.

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Originally Posted by Reilyn

You mean the raids that have inferior weapons for multiple jobs, inferior gear to diadem, doesn't give a title, and pretty much has very little to no motivation to get people to participate in them as is when they offer less progress for the effort toward the relic weapon compared to anything else? As if raid participation wasn't already suffering...

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Progressive raiders do not care what transpires within the 3 month they are taking a break based on the talks I had with some. Such things like Anima or Zodiac do not matter to them because the gear they have is good enough to complete to the next raid of Alex tier. Tittles never came out for Coil 1-2. Diadem is also already being addressed by the Dev. team and Yoshi P. in the recent live letter. There is still many people who wish to raid Alex, but can't find a raid group or make the time. Anima Weapon will not be addressed until patch 3.25 - 3.3 so the Anima weapon will still be obsolete for Alex Tier 2 based on what Yoshi P. has suggested in the recent live letter. Also....Raids get boring over time and content gets boring despite how many bosses there is people get sick of the raid in general (raided in wow). Same thing applies in Alex or Coils. It gets boring over time. Alex has been out for +4 months; people are going to get tired of the 4 bosses in that dungeon.

@Reilyn, with that argument it again just boils down to people stamping their feet and wanting to do the relic how they see fit. There's plenty of options, all ultimately give the same reward. We don't need 10 different paths to suit every individual player who decides they don't like the quest that was given.

I wouldn't even be arguing if the relic had one option, but it has so many and people are still complaining. Adding any more isn't going to solve anything but the small amount of people who would rather do extreme trials or coil than Alexander.

They've done it before with the Nexus stage, so no real reason they couldn't implement a similar concept here. They've already copy/pasted other Zodiac steps so far.