Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

@Reynhart - Are you talking "Paladin" or "Gladiator"? I specifically was referring to the "classes", not the "jobs". I'm also talking pre-1.20.

Reference of change:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30986

Prior to that, there was no such thing as class exclusive abilities.

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Originally Posted by Xyphon

Prior to that, there was no such thing as class exclusive abilities.

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Prior to that, there was no "job", so "PLD" never had the opportunity to use Curaga.

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Originally Posted by Xyphon

Well in 1.0 plds could cross class every single conj ability/spell

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Creation of jobs
Besides, before that, classes were such a mess that CNJ wasn't even the best healer..
And at that time, there wasn't any content to tank, anyway...

For me, the solution to the problems that Pld's have is not so dramatic. A few simple changes to the effects of certain moves while in different Oaths would be the most efficient way of balancing Pld. (Note that I said balance. I don't, personally, have a problem with Pld Dmg output, so I'm not as interested in finding ways to dramatically increase Pld Dps as I am at making them a competent Tank.)

In terms of the Oaths themselves:

Sword Oath: Remains the same.

Shield Oath: Remains the same, with one addition: Healing potency (spells cast by the Pld. NOT healing received) increases by 20% (I know this sound OP, but just wait); however, I would only want to see this change if Clemency's base healing potency was also reduced by the same amount.

The idea here is that Clemency remains at an identical potency as it is now when in Shield Oath, but suffers a nerf when in Sword Oath. That way, when Pld's are acting as Off Tank, they would be forced to stance dance to get the same healing potency. Given that the stances are on the GCD, and Clemency's cast timer is quite long, they would not be ridiculously overpowered and be able to serve as a "3rd healer," when Off Tanking. Basically, not much would change with this nerf/buff combo; however, it would give Pld's the option of using Cure (though still not quite as effective as a WHM) when main tanking, as well as the ability to (at least somewhat,) self heal to ease the strain... at least when not getting punched in the face. Given that the potency would be normal in Sword Oath, it would not be "OP," and any Pld that chooses to Off Tank in Shield Oath to compensate would be willfully nerfing their own Dps (which would probably be much worse than helping the healers, with all the Dps checks that are all the rage these days).

Now for the actual moves. Personally, I think that there are a lot of Pld moves that should change effect when used in different Oaths (especially Royal Authority, since it does nothing at the moment), but the one that I think has the most potential to help balance the Pld Tp issue is Divine Veil. The change that I would implement is:

Divine Veil: No change to the barrier ability. Provides small amount of Tp Regeneration when used in Shield Oath. When used in Sword Oath, provides Tp regeneration equal to the Pld's current Tp across the party (IE: if the Plds has max TP, than each party member gets 125 regen)

I singled this one out because, unlike Shelltron, it does not require a physical attack to initiate (which means you can still use it while Off Tanking), but it also has a long enough cooldown that it could not be considered overpowered (no more so than War's Tp regen skill, in any case... It actually might be considered underpowered still, since the CD is so damn long, and Pld's might chose to hold onto it for hard hitting aoe moves instead of just burning it on CD). The only thing that would make me hesitate is changing the effect when in Sword Oath... only, I thought about this, and I realized that I rarely run out of TP when Off Tanking. Off tanks tend to do a lot more running around, either soaking dmg or picking up adds. They do NOT have 100% uptime, like the MT does. Also, if a Pld is Off Tanking adds, they are usually in Shield Oath (if not, its usually because the add dies too fast for it to matter), so they would get the benefit of Tp regen. If they are soaking mechanic dmg, they're not attacking the boss, so there's no TP loss to make up for.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Why exactly would you want to make PLD essentially a hybrid job? In essence, what this does is turn FFXIV PLD into Holy Paladins from WoW. http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Paladi...ations.2Fstats

I have no idea why you would want this?! :confused::confused:

Edit: Oh, and I'm willing to bet that switching into your new "Oath of Solace" would basically make PLD a limp noodle. Bad healing. Bad dps. Bad tanking. Why would you EVER do it?!

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That's what Paladins are in Final Fantasy: a knight with White Magic skills, just look at Cecil.
People should forget WoW for a moment and look at the FF series before saying something about a FF game.

@Reynhart - Yea, I realized I put pld instead of gld (I think of them as one in the same..considering Pld is just a specialization of a Gld).

Though, I figured it was to late in the convo to correct it. My intention was just to point out that at one time there was no restriction, and it didn't make healers invalid.

In terms of there being no content to tank at the time...Ifrit would have said otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

That's what Paladins are in Final Fantasy: a knight with White Magic skills, just look at Cecil.
People should forget WoW for a moment and look at the FF series before saying something about a FF game.

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That's not what the in-game quests imply...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Explain to me how it wouldn't if it allows you to bring an additional DPS to the party?

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Because even if the PLD had the raw output to cover healing for a moment, it would almost every other quality of a real healer -- control, speed, and a decent mana pool. If my WHM can has a 31-Cure mana pool that regens half a Cure's mana every 3 seconds, paired with a 4k and a 10% of max mana returns every 90s, oGCDs, hugely mana-efficient HoTs, AoE heals, and a cleanse, and can still do 60% of the damage of a full-fledged... why take a PLD who burns through a 12th his mana pool every Cure, 2/5s every Clemency, has none of those extra features, is delayed by GCD just to swap to heal stance, has no spell speed, and is much less able to weave dps into his heals? It simply doesn't have the toolkit, even if its raw output was better than the healers' to warrant dropping a healer in any even half-serious content.

It provides too little of a safety net that Clemency in its current state does not already provide (e.g. needing to nuke-heal the MT for 12-18k while a or both healers are jailed or are (both) busy with raid heals). By the time you're dropping your 13+% dps boost of Sword Oath (or the near 35% of combined old sword oath kept atop the new version suggested here) and every combo that comes up mid-way to needing a heal (though you'd probably be spamming Riot Blade at that point anyways, for a Cure of mana each time), you're doing far less DPS/HPS output than a healer.

As for the swapping Strength and Mind, that would be a dps loss of around 78% not even counting the loss of Sword Oath and the reduced AA damage included in the heal oath idea. It would also keep PLDs just as dependent on Slaying accs as ever, which I'd thought was something so many PLD advocates were trying to push away from...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Should we remove the healer LB3, because it could allow one healer to progress a party through a phase that the 7 other party members could not pass working together ?

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Since the healer cannot Hallowed Ground / Sentinel-Rampart-ShieldOath through mechanics and then rez the remaining 7 members on the other side, this isn't as relevant as you make it out to be. In most cases where there would be 7 members dead, both healers would be among them. Almost any occasion where that would not be the case is because people blatantly sac'd themselves (maybe because they had a raid-debuff worse than Weakened?) or died in any otherwise stupid manner.

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Originally Posted by Xyphon

In terms of there being no content to tank at the time...Ifrit would have said otherwise.

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Ifrit's fight was a mess in 1.19.
The damage calculation was so wrong that you would take the same damage as a fully armored Gladiator than a naked THM. And since v1.x didn't have any interruption mechanic (except on knockback), it was best to stack THM to heal and deal damage.
Example of nekid run

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Originally Posted by Februs

The idea here is that Clemency remains at an identical potency as it is now when in Shield Oath, but suffers a nerf when in Sword Oath.

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Clemency is not relevant as it is now, so, what good would it make ?

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Originally Posted by Februs

Basically, not much would change with this nerf/buff combo; however, it would give Pld's the option of using Cure (though still not quite as effective as a WHM) when main tanking, as well as the ability to (at least somewhat,) self heal to ease the strain... at least when not getting punched in the face. Given that the potency would be normal in Sword Oath, it would not be "OP," and any Pld that chooses to Off Tank in Shield Oath to compensate would be willfully nerfing their own Dps (which would probably be much worse than helping the healers, with all the Dps checks that are all the rage these days).

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Why not taking my suggestion of switching STR and MND when in "heal oath" (And tie Clemency with Mind) ? This would natturally nerf your own DPS in a very simple way, while tremendously increasing your healing output. And since PLD would only have access to single target Cure, this would never make it a real main healer.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

That's not what the in-game quests imply...

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That's what the class requirement clearly says.
CNJ is not "something we can use", like Pugilist for WAR, it's required to even unlock the job.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Since the healer cannot Hallowed Ground / Sentinel-Rampart-ShieldOath through mechanics and then rez the remaining 7 members on the other side, this isn't as relevant as you make it out to be.

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Well since the PLD wouldn't be able to do it...With its casting time and MP pool, the PLD would be able to raise ONE member.
In most cases, there would still be a wipe, stop exagerrating.
And again, would this make you chose PLD over any tank ? Would you say to your WAR or DRK, with a straight face "Sorry, we'll take a PLD because he will absolutely save the whole party once we messed up the whole mechanics of the fight" ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well since the PLD wouldn't be able to do it...With its casting time and MP pool, the PLD would be able to raise ONE member.
In most cases, there would still be a wipe, stop exagerrating.
And again, would this make you chose PLD over any tank ? Would you say to your WAR or DRK, with a straight face "Sorry, we'll take a PLD because he will absolutely save the whole party once we messed up the whole mechanics of the fight" ?

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I was merely pointing out how those two situations differ. No, it would not make me take a PLD over another tank. Nor, sadly, would almost anything mentioned in the OP other than that 20-some% Sword Oath dps buff (RIP all other OTs).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I was merely pointing out how those two situations differ. No, it would not make me take a PLD over another tank. Nor, sadly, would almost anything mentioned in the OP other than that 20-some% Sword Oath dps buff (RIP all other OTs).

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It was 10%, and I edited the OP to remove the stacking of old and new Sword Oath after reading a length, and rather numerate reply.

My question here is, why does it always have to be DPS? We already have a DPS tank, I don't think PLD needs to imitate that role, so lets look for anothe niche we can fill.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why not taking my suggestion of switching STR and MND when in "heal oath" (And tie Clemency with Mind) ? This would natturally nerf your own DPS in a very simple way, while tremendously increasing your healing output. And since PLD would only have access to single target Cure, this would never make it a real main healer.

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Okay lets go with this to our fictional test server:

- Paladin in Shield Oath fighting and an AOE occurs
- Healer under pressure, you see that your off heal is in need but just used an attack
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- Heal Oath
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- 2 second Cure...ups your target died in the last 6 seconds.
- Change back to Shield Oath

Cure should just scale the same way as Clemency does. Of our STR and Weaponpower.
With that, SE could have done something like: If you cure, you have a chance of 30% that your next Clemency is an Instant Cast.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It was 10%, and I edited the OP to remove the stacking of old and new Sword Oath after reading a lengthy, and rather numerate reply.

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Sorry, hadn't noticed the change yet. However, that is still more than a 10% DPS bonus. You've also included a 10% Skill Speed (I'm assuming you meant Attack Speed?) bonus atop the 10% bonus to raw Damage. If we were spamming a single ability, that would be a 21% increase to DPS. Given that we're actually windowed by GB and that speed won't affect AAs or oGCDs, it would actually be more like a mere 12% until you have a GCD of 2.2, allowing an extra RA combo within GB (extra RA with a 1-tick delayed GB would probably be more useful, however, and would require only a 2.25 GCD...though we are unlikely to be able to reach either in this entire expansion).

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My question here is, why does it always have to be DPS? We already have a DPS tank, I don't think PLD needs to imitate that role, so lets look for another niche we can fill.

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Because a tank is there to contribute more Raid DPS than a purer Damage-dealer could in his place. The same is true of healers. However, note: if the tank did 0 DPS himself, but kept others alive and allowed positionals or uninterrupted combat to compensate for the loss of another Damage-dealer who could have filled that slot, he would still be contributing Raid DPS. If people would have died when lacking a second healer, then that second healer will ultimately probably be worth more DPS than that extra Damage-dealer. However, when any other tank can contribute nearly the same Raid DPS not related to the tank's personal DPS, while also pushing out 250 more personally, you're generally going to take him. Until the game gives us more numerous and nuanced ways to aid Raid DPS, a lot of it's going to come from personal, and especially given the versatility of our healers its difficult for a off-heal niche to form against that (at least as long as it's costing it DPS to off-heal).

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

- Paladin in Shield Oath fighting and an AOE occurs
- Healer under pressure, you see that your off heal is in need but just used an attack
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- Heal Oath
- 2.5 seconds GCD
- 2 second Cure...ups your target died in the last 6 seconds.
- Change back to Shield Oath

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Ok, some questions, then :

• Is the PLD MT or OT ?
• If the PLD is MT, why isn't there a 2nd healer to take care of that ?
• If the PLD is OT, why is he in Shield Oath in the first place ?
• Why isn't the PLD using Cover on the target since he's so close to die ?

The problem with scaling with STR is that you would be able to Cure AND DPS...and tank...at the same time.

Cure is a CNJ skill, so any proc would either only available to CNJ or have an impact on a CNJ skill. Or it would be a retroactive proc on Clemency, which is very convoluted...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

However, when any other tank can contribute nearly the same Raid DPS not related to the tank's personal DPS, while also pushing out 250 more personally, you're generally going to take him.

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No tank can "contribute nearly the same DPS while pushing out more personally" if having a PLD allows you to bring an additionnal DPS while keepin the raid safe as a back healer.

It doesn't matter if the PLD is Main- or Offtank, because you will have to switch the Stance (be it shield or sword) and it is most likely that you will have a GCD running as you would lose DPS or Enmity if you are not chaining your skills.

If you now bring a second healer into discussion, looking into a Healer stance, even more makes no sence. As you will waste GCD with Stance Dance and any second Healer will be a better DPS/Heal than you could ever be.

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The problem with scaling with STR is that you would be able to Cure AND DPS...and tank...at the same time.

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No, I would not.
If I cure, I don't DPS.
If I cure, I don't tank, because any healer would gain more aggro with their heals, healing still more than twice, than I could do.

A potent cure that heals ~800HP would be a nice tool agains Magic DMG, that is our biggest weakness and we are still limited to our 5-6k Mana Pool.

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Cure is a CNJ skill, so any proc would either only available to CNJ or have an impact on a CNJ skill. Or it would be a retroactive proc on Clemency, which is very convoluted...

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The Procc is part of Clemency and not Cure. Cure just triggers the Procc. That has nothing to do with CNJ or WHM.

AND Cure IS a PLD Skill as well, because SquareEnix decided that I can use it. If they didn't wanted it, they would have let it out.

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

It doesn't matter if the PLD is Main- or Offtank, because you will have to switch the Stance

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No, if your role, as an OT, is to take care of the main tank, you'll stay in heal oath for most of the fight, so you won't lose a GCD switching. It's like staying in Sword Oath when you shouldn't be. The problem is not with the job, but the player.

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

If there is a second healer doesn't matter if we are looking into a Healer stance, that does make no sence as I pointed out, if you will bring in now a second healer, than the healer stance for PLD is even more ridiculous.

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Yes, if there is a second healer, you don't want a PLD in heal stance. And if you have only one healer, then the PLD will stay in heal stance because he'll have a lot of work to do.

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

No, I would not.
If I cure, I don't DPS.

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Wow, do you even realize than healers manage to do both just because they can go back and forth with Cleric Stance ? Or even easier with the SCH fairy...
And, just by staying in Shield Oath while curing, you're being far more sturdy than most job, while still being able to Provoke right of the bat and follow up with a single enmity combo to give you a head start.

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

The Proc is part of Clemency and not Cure. Cure just triggers the Proc. That has nothing to do with CNJ or WHM.
AND Cure IS a PLD Skill as well, because SquareEnix decided that I can use it. If they didn't wanted it, they would have let it out.

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For it to be part of Clemency, it means it's a retroactive proc. No other skill has that (Something like "if you use it before this skill you'll gain that"), except stances.
No, Cure is a CNJ skill. It's just that PLD can cross class CNJ skill.

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Originally Posted by Cheraa

The Procc is part of Clemency and not Cure. Cure just triggers the Procc. That has nothing to do with CNJ or WHM.

AND Cure IS a PLD Skill as well, because SquareEnix decided that I can use it. If they didn't want it, they would have let it out.

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Sorry to be technical, but:

No abilities in this game checks prior cast/use history. It would have to be a PLD trait enhancing Cure itself for anything to be procced by Cure. I see no issue with this, but SE's rigid job/class design structure has shown that they are in no way willing to give jobs traits, nor classes traits for abilities that aren't native to it. (Which is also why my suggested PLD Mind bonus will never happen.)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

1. No, if your role, as an OT, is to take care of the main tank, you'll stay in heal oath for most of the fight, so you won't lose a GCD switching. It's like staying in Sword Oath when you shouldn't be. The problem is not with the job, but the player.

Yes, if there is a second healer, you don't want a PLD in heal stance. And if you have only one healer, then the PLD will stay in heal stance because he'll have a lot of work to do.

2. Wow, do you even realize than healers manage to do both just because they can go back and forth with Cleric Stance ? Or even easier with the SCH fairy...
And, just by staying in Shield Oath while curing, you're being far more sturdy than most job, while still being able to Provoke right of the bat and follow up with a single enmity combo to give you a head start.

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Could you please tell me what level of healing you expect PLD to be capable of. There seem to be a lot of contradictions here. You advocate that you should be prioritizing heals as OT even while including below why a healer is far better suited for that job than PLD is... Further, you just questioned a healing OT PLD hanging out in Shield Oath in the Shield Oath > Heal Oath > Cure > back to Shield Oath example Cheraa gave a few posts ago but now seem to be advocating the option here? Do you want the Heal Oath to be just slightly better at curing than the other two, making them each in their own way viable options?

Bottom line from what I'm seeing, sorry to repeat: Whatever his output, he's only got single-target heals, a very small mana pool, and breaks combos upon starting any cast but Flash. As it stands PLD Sword Oath dps is higher over time than any healer's dps. It is lower than high-efficiency healer DPS abilities, but each healer only has 2-3 decent DoTs. I can see a PLD with decent healing (80+% to 110% of a real healer's Cure/Physic/Benefic - though that would by then call for Clemency modifications) healing maybe once or twice as healer DoTs are exhausting and a maybe bit more to time up with GB or GB + a combo while the healer filler casts, but beyond that, I can't imagine him being much use. While the healer's DoTs are ticking for some 100+ potency per 3 seconds, his Goring Blade is only doing 40 and his auto-attacks are debuffed and delayed. The healer has pet or regens ticking for another 150-230 (relative, pet untraited) potency per 3 seconds. No matter how I look at it, the PLD is sacrificing far more dps than the healer to put out miniscule amounts. That has situation use, sure, but it's almost never going to replace a healer in a way that raid dps itself would not have (the usual limiter of a solo-heal run).

Also, as long as the PLD isn't oGCD healing (like healers' handful of abilities), he CANNOT dps and heal at the same time. That in itself will limit his versatility at least as much as any need to stance-dance to heal.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Could you please tell me what level of healing you expect PLD to be capable of.

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Actually, no I can't.
Because any actual numbers will be dismissed because "it's too much" or criticized because "it's not enough". And that those numbers would need real tests in real content, which can't be provided in the current state of the game.

But the philosophy would be that the PLD will only take care of the main tank, by using Cure, Clemency as an emergency, and cooldowns to other skills to "split" the damage (Covering the tank, Stoneskin or Divine Veil to reduce incoming damage or Provoking just before a big hit, since the OT doesn't suffer constant damage), allowing it to delay some required healing while the real healer's HoT ticks. Apart from that, I really feel Sheltron should work as long as the hit is in front of us, allowing you to "intercept" a hit with your shield.

Of course this setup wouldn't work in content where two MT are needed, like A1.

Do we really want to turn paladin in second class healer? We certainly can't let him be good enough to outshine the real healers.

I agree that sword oath is lacking, so it should be reworked, but for the simplicity sake instead of adding more oaths, we should follow in steps of our conjurer subclass and have "cleric stance" - basically one button to switch between shield oath and sword oath with nothing in the middle.

Paladin could use a little bit more utility with shorter CDs. This could be achieved by oaths giving other skills bonus effects. Rage of Halone in shield oath should do something a little bit different than rage of halon in sword oath etc.

As the paladin is supposed to be "mitigation" tank, the oaths could also reflect that - for the whole group. Stick 10% HP increase for group members around paladin on shield oath, heck it could as well turn 5% of healing reveived into splash healing effect that would also heal melee dps jobs. Put something like group wide 10% crit increase on sword oath and disable shield - completely. I think that in sword oath the shield should stay on our back. That way we could actually get more offensive as the bonus from the shield would be removed for the duration. Gladiator starts without a shield, so why not incorporate it into our playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, no I can't.
Because any actual numbers will be dismissed because "it's too much" or criticized because "it's not enough". And that those numbers would need real tests in real content, which can't be provided in the current state of the game.

But the philosophy would be that the PLD will only take care of the main tank, by using Cure, Clemency as an emergency, and cooldowns to other skills to "split" the damage (Covering the tank, Stoneskin or Divine Veil to reduce incoming damage or Provoking just before a big hit, since the OT doesn't suffer constant damage), allowing it to delay some required healing while the real healer's HoT ticks. Apart from that, I really feel Sheltron should work as long as the hit is in front of us, allowing you to "intercept" a hit with your shield.

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I get what you mean about the numbers; I was just looking for the boundaries. What can it do, what can't it do? How does it fair vs. alternatives? Etc.

I've been wanting the ability to intercept most attacks since 1.x (essentially every AoE being a progressive split (the mitigation from the first person hit subtracts from the attack done to the person behind him, and so forth) and, though certain attacks may resist how this would apply to normal mitigation, certain abilities would still be treated in that way (e.g. Shelltron, Bulwark, Raw Intuition, Shadow Wall)... That said, I'd given up on it as something that SE would actually do.
As such almost every PLD suggestion thread I'd written on, prior to this consolidation here, included a suggestion to change Shelltron into an older-named Aegis Boon, which could then be cast on an ally to apply your block over them. It'd be a little too OP, though, if you didn't actually have to take any of that damage, which is why I didn't include it here despite loving its support capabilities.
Edit: Sadly, even a sort of single-use Cover version of Aegis Boon (where you project yourself, sort of, as the blocking shield, absorbing that portion of damage for the target), would still be OP in the context of you most likely having full health and thinking nothing of the damage while the target's life is saved (kind of like how we forget that Convert has an HP cost).

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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Sorry for being so late to reply, Kosmos. I lost it among the different threads I was going through, and this one's filling out so quickly (largely mine and Reynhart's doing...). Part of my criticism, as you would probably expect, was due to my own frustrations at certain 'ships having long since sailed' in regards to role homogeneity, but I assure you there is a logic to it as well (or at least so I convince myself); we only have what possibilities the state of the game, and its undermechanics, allow. I'm sure once you math things out, you could find a decent balance for what you want, I just do have to caution you again to do so. There's nothing like a good idea gone sour because it lacked the fine details. Your Healing Stance should be able to basically include trait-like ability enhancements (the only way any job can ever get an enhanced version of a non-job ability, sadly), enough to make them usable. I'd merely caution you from 1) removing the dps oath and 2) removing some manner of decent heal access to the other oaths (e.g. Clemency). As per the math I showed you, Sword Oath is a sizable dps component, and PLD/GLD would need a major revision to its potency to hold its own if Sword Oath was removed. In my signature (PLD fix) I've included the 8 adjustments I personally find most important for PLD, but it takes after the 'Knight' motif more than the 'Paladin' one, leaving heals usable but not really focus-able/specializable (no stance for Cure, instead just mediocre all the time, but at least not crap). Its aimed more at reducing frustrations and increasing general enjoyability than any additional tactical engagement, but I do think it at least retains identity. I haven't fixed Raise because I thought that'd be a bit much. The math is basically done.

Oh, but if GLD's potencies were increased to make up for no Sword Oath, what would you then want to do with that Oath to make it "give and take" still? If no-Oath does competitive dps, we can't really have an extra-dps-ish oath atop that. On the other hand, we already have a damage-sacrificing Oath, such that a +healing for -dmg would overlap a fair bit.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

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I've been answering your questions, but if we're going to have an actual discussion, you need to answer mine as well.

You're on the side of PLD having brez and are trying to argue that it's balanced because the SMN can brez and I'd like to attempt to understand where you are coming from.

If someone made a post along the lines of "every class should have a battle rez" would that be something you'd support? Why/why not?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I believe every class/job that can use raise souldn't be blocked by an inconsistent trait.

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That's not really a justification and doesn't answer the question. When you get down to brass tacks, aren't you really saying:
"SE allows PLD to rez; therefore, SE should give PLD brez"

So if SE said they where considering giving everyone brez, would you be on board? Why?

The purpose of this question is just to see if there is any scenario where you believe brez shouldn't be allowed because if you believe brez is always balanced no matter what, there's no way we'll ever reach a consensus.

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Originally Posted by winsock

That's not really a justification and doesn't answer the question. When you get down to brass tacks, aren't you really saying:
"SE allows PLD to rez; therefore, SE should give PLD brez"

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The justification is exactly that. PLD is able to cross class CNJ skills, so they should be able to use them.

BUT, if someone decided to go into a level 50- content as a class (not a job), to be able to cross-class Raise (and maybe Swiftcast) and use it, sure, go for it.
And it could even be an interesting strategy if you didn't have a SMN in your party, to be able to raise one healer.

Of course, now that the level cap is 60, the downside is far too heavy to justify using a class. So, by design, PLD would be the only "physical" job able to heal.

The problem with that trait is that it's totally arbitrary. If Arcanist also had it, at least, it would have been consistent, but still weird...

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Originally Posted by winsock

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Do you believe that it is okay to have a skill that can't be used? Because that is exactly Raise atm without the battle trait.

Would paladin be OP with brez? No.

I would like to see how often could one paladin using brez save the party from something like your Ravana example.

So the paladin manages after 8 sec. to raise one healer, drained and in a sorry state, while taking hits. How does the recovery go from there? Even if you had two paladins. I can't see how would the healers manage to recover anything on regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I would like to see how often could one paladin using brez save the party from something like your Ravana example.

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Actually, the real question would be how often other tanks would be rejected under the pretense of PLD having raise is a godsend.

Because that's what the balance between jobs is.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I've been answering your questions, but if we're going to have an actual discussion, you need to answer mine as well.

You're on the side of PLD having brez and are trying to argue that it's balanced because the SMN can brez and I'd like to attempt to understand where you are coming from.

If someone made a post along the lines of "every class should have a battle rez" would that be something you'd support? Why/why not?

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Sure, I'm more than fine having a discussion and I did answer your questions previously. You keep saying brez will break the game if a PLD gets it because they are not a healer class. That is why I pointed out the SMN. They are a DPS, yet they have a brez. Why? Why did a SMN get the brez AND a completely DIFFERENT resurrection spell (it's the exact same as raise, but was given a different name), but the cross class GIVEN to the PLD can't be used? SE literally made an entirely new move to do the exact same thing for another class that isn't even a healing class. But a class GIVEN a skill as part of their cross class can't even utilize it?

An arcanist does not allow a cross class of their skill resurrection. Meaning, they never intended for BLM's to have the ability as a cross class skill. The only other classes to cross class with Conjurer are other healing classes. The SCH and the AST. There are no other classes cross classing with conjurer, the ONLY class that gives Raise as part of it's cross class skills. The crosses from Conjurer are useless to a PLD in a group setting. Solo play, some are decent (stoneskin and protect), but that's not what this game revolves around (hence, MMORPG).

I'm not saying every class should have a brez. I'm saying, SE gave us the ability for PLD's to cross class with conjurer, but no way to utilize with it. Essentially, making our 4 cross class skills with them effectively useless. Saying that healers should be the only one's able to brez is already NOT a thing. We have SMN's, which are DPS. Once again, I am NOT asking for swiftcast. I'm simply asking that our skills given to us actually be something we could possibly utilize. I'm not saying it'd be easy to utilize them. Heck, it may only be useful once in a blue moon. But then again, half of PLD's skills already are. And that's part of our complaints as well. But I will also say this. Those moves that are only found to be useful in specific situations, when we PLD's DO pull them off perfectly and save a wipe, they are no doubt the most memorable of moments for us. Putting up that Cover with Hallowed Ground on a healer right before a move that wipes the rest of the party and save the day is one of the best feelings for a PLD. It happens once in a while. Not all the time. Raise would be similar in this sense to us.

So end point, you say, "why not give every class brez?"
I'm saying, not every class was given the cross class ability and not able to use it. PLD's did. We got the short end of the stick. We're considered a class that's supposed to be both physical and magic, but only given physical usefulness. And TWO of our NEW moves are basically cover ups for the fact that our cross class skills were useless to us in a group setting. Divine Veil is basically stoneskin II and Clemency is basically Cure II. Tell me. How many other classes got new skills that simply covered up the mistakes of their cross class skills (and not even that well). Clemency is ok. It can get a PLD out of a pinch but isn't sustainable in battle at a constant rate.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, the real question would be how often other tanks would be rejected under the pretense of PLD having raise is a godsend.

Because that's what the balance between jobs is.

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I can't see many players saying: "Guys, let's take two paladins who will save h. ground so that we can fail this mechanic due to dps check (because we brought two paladins) and then after the massacre they will raise healers, healers will use LB3 (after we pray to RNG jesus to have it ready in time) and we will finish the fight." Solid strategy ftw

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I can't see many players saying: "Guys, let's take two paladins who will save h. ground so that we can fail this mechanic due to dps check (because we brought two paladins) and then after the massacre they will raise healers, healers will use LB3 (after we pray to RNG jesus to have it ready in time) and we will finish the fight." Solid strategy ftw

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Woah woah woah. I think you took the wrong idea from his statement buddy. He's not saying PLD will replace all tanks and people will want to bring in 2 PLDs. He's saying that the dynamic will change and PLD's having raise could make people suddenly go, "oh sweet, a PLD! He can help raise people" instead of "oh god, a PLD. He can do defense CD's that aren't needed" The beauty of 2 tanks is that you can also switch OT and MT if needed. Even if the PLD was the main, the OT could easily switch if the healer's can't stop the healing and there's no SMN.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Woah woah woah. I think you took the wrong idea from his statement buddy.

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No, actually, he answered perfectly.
I intended such an answer to prove than no one will choose to reject WAR and DRK just because PLD can raise in battle. That's exactly why having a battle raise will have absolutely no effect on the current balance between tanks...while still offering something where PLD to shine sometimes, like Malicewolf described.

People won't chose PLD over other tanks for that Raise, but they'll remember fondly that one time when it saved the day :)

Like that one time in Turn 12 where the off-tank died and I managed to pop Hallowed Ground just before the primary-secondary head combo. Wonderful memory. :D

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

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Well... Oh sweet PLD! He can help raise people who aren't supposed to die in the first place, let's take him instead of War.

Utility focused towards correcting mistakes is usually less usefull than utility that always works - like Warrior's dps helping with dps checks. If PLD was able to brez, it would give him small utility in specific situations. It doesn't seem so ground breaking to me as there are already 4 other classes who can battle res.

I'm glad that you never wipe then because you and all your parties are perfect! I do not have such a nice luxury. Have you seen a SMN who decided to opt out of keeping Raise because "we have 2 healer's who can do that"? And would you rather see my PLD with the current cure while we're out in a fight? Yes, it's situational. In a perfect run, a PLD shouldn't need hallowed ground. Nor should a WAR use Holmgang. Or a DRK use living dead. Do we end up using them? Heck yea. All the time. We all make mistakes. I shouldn't "Need" to use clemency. I'm not looking for a ground breaking change that'll make PLD's the new best tank out there. I'm looking for something that'll help give us a separate identity from them that's still useful. Right now, it's simply, "oh, PLD is 'extra' mitigation, but we don't need extra mitigation". Giving us more DPS would be nice, yes. But matching us to be identical to a WAR isn't what I want.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The justification is exactly that. PLD is able to cross class CNJ skills, so they should be able to use them.
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The problem with that trait is that it's totally arbitrary.
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Here's why this isn't justification:
* Raise is not a brez for anyone crossclassing it. That is consistent.
* SE letting a class have a skill does not automatically imply that the class should have a more powerful/useful version of that skill.
* removing raise as a crossclass skill would also correct this issue by your standard.


But again, I'd like to know, if SE was wanting feedback on whether or not to give everyone brez, would you be for or against it/Is there any scenario where you would recommend not giving brez to a class? Cause if not, the we're probably discussing the wrong topic.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Clemency is not relevant as it is now, so, what good would it make ?

Why not taking my suggestion of switching STR and MND when in "heal oath" (And tie Clemency with Mind) ? This would natturally nerf your own DPS in a very simple way, while tremendously increasing your healing output. And since PLD would only have access to single target Cure, this would never make it a real main healer.

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One, Clemency is useful when Off tanking, and, as much as the cast is far to slow to be considered very useful in combat, I have, actually, used it to pretty good effects in Raids, usually on Squishier Dps. Sometimes you get interrupted. Sometimes you don't. It's not saving they day or anything (the healers can usually handle it alone if they have to), but it has frees up the healer to apply buffs or have less frantic party healing when they're working down the list and find that some of the Dps have already been capped. It's just for sake of helping out, really. The utility is using it to help manage your TP (at least at the moment, while SE can't seem sort out a proper method of fixing that problem) and providing support to the healers. Even if Clemency goes off and the healers have already capped the player you targeted, Clemency ensures that you get a portion of that healing back to yourself (quite a bit, especially with Convalescence up). No matter what, using Clemency provides support to your healers either by healing the person you target or by healing you. It has more than enough utility.

And the reason I'd rather not go with the STR and MND swap in a heal oath is because of Pld dps and gear set combinations. Again, I'm not interested in increasing Pld Dps to be equal to Wars or anything, but I also don't want to lower it either. Swapping stats in a healer oath would work out fine for healing, but it would also dramatically lower our base dmg output. Considering the massive stiffy SE has for Dps checks right now, that would FAR worse for raid utility than getting some extra healing. Also, swapping the stat values would always be hindered and tied to our gear loadouts. People tend to forget that Str and Det scale with one another. If a Pld loaded up with Str gear (which most often comes with Det as a secondary), when they swapped their Str and Mnd stats they'd be losing the potency that Str normally gains off of Det. Basically, you'd be killing our baseline Dps output for lackluster healing.

Can I put one little extra tid bit out there. Everyone is talking ONLY about end game raid utility I feel. But let's not forget that we can find uses in the lvl sync'd dungeons below lvl 50 as well. Cure stays with us as a cross class skill; Clemency does not. Not saying end game dungeons and raids aren't important, but let's also not forget how crippled a low lvl PLD that's lvl sync'd is in comparison to their counterpart tanks.

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Originally Posted by winsock

* SE letting a class have a skill does not automatically imply that the class should have a more powerful/useful version of that skill.

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/cough Protect
/cough Stoneskin

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Originally Posted by winsock

* removing raise as a crossclass skill would also correct this issue by your standard.

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Yeah...and removing PLD will remove all complain about PLD...maybe you could try real examples, for once...

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Originally Posted by winsock

But again, I'd like to know, if SE was wanting feedback on whether or not to give everyone brez, would you be for or against it/Is there any scenario where you would recommend not giving brez to a class? Cause if not, the we're probably discussing the wrong topic.

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You question just seems weirder and weirder...And I won't answer it, because:
- If I say yes, you'll just say "Oh, my god, are you insane, you want everyone to be able to raise in battle ?!"
- If I say no, you'll say "Oh, why are you discriminating other classes ! You want PLD to be the special snowflake !!!"

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Originally Posted by Februs

One, Clemency is useful when Off tanking, and, as much as the cast is far to slow to be considered very useful in combat, I have, actually, used it to pretty good effects in Raids, usually on Squishier Dps.

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Yes, it can be useful, but most of the time, you can skip any cast of Clemency without having any effect on the outcome. That's why I say it's not relevant

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Originally Posted by Februs

And the reason I'd rather not go with the STR and MND swap in a heal oath is because of Pld dps and gear set combinations. Again, I'm not interested in increasing Pld Dps to be equal to Wars or anything, but I also don't want to lower it either. Swapping stats in a healer oath would work out fine for healing, but it would also dramatically lower our base dmg output.

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You could still deactivate your oath to retain a "basic" DPS output. Of course, you'd be doing less that nowadays, but it wouldn't be your goal.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Considering the massive stiffy SE has for Dps checks right now, that would FAR worse for raid utility than getting some extra healing.

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Remember, I imagined the healing stance to allow you to skip one healer to bring an additionnal DPS. Because what is important for DPS check is the overall DPS. If the party can output the same DPS, it's not important that PLD is really low personnaly.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Also, swapping the stat values would always be hindered and tied to our gear loadouts. People tend to forget that Str and Det scale with one another. If a Pld loaded up with Str gear (which most often comes with Det as a secondary), when they swapped their Str and Mnd stats they'd be losing the potency that Str normally gains off of Det. Basically, you'd be killing our baseline Dps output for lackluster healing.

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Det doesn't scale with STR, it scales with everything. So, Det would apply to our healing potency, which is the exact focus off the healing stance.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Can I put one little extra tid bit out there. Everyone is talking ONLY about end game raid utility I feel. But let's not forget that we can find uses in the lvl sync'd dungeons below lvl 50 as well. Cure stays with us as a cross class skill; Clemency does not. Not saying end game dungeons and raids aren't important, but let's also not forget how crippled a low lvl PLD that's lvl sync'd is in comparison to their counterpart tanks.

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I've never been thinking in terms of End-game. My entire concept is based on normal play because currently in 'normal' play, all our CNJ cross class skills are damn near redundant or useless.

I'm perfectly fine with PLD's being special snowflakes. SMN's are special snowflakes right now. They are the only non-healing class that can brez. Ninja's are the only battle class that can hide. They are special snowflakes (special sneaky snowflakes). I don't mind if PLD's become a special snowflake because it simply means, they are different and they SHOULD be. They should NOT be way better than the other tanks, but they should have their own unique identity to make them useful and different than the other's.

And sorry kosmos, it wasn't referred to you. I really just meant the recent posts were all focusing on end game content which heavily relies on dps checks. But this discussion is about more than just that and I'm just trying to make sure that doesn't get lost in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

I'm perfectly fine with PLD's being special snowflakes.

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Poor soul, don't say that !
In these parts, the mere idea of wanting to be special automatically dismisses anything you might have to say :p

Almost like "I think PLD should need..." will automatically be dismissed by a condescending "You must stay in the shadow of the mighty Warrior !"

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

I'm NOT perfectly fine with PLD's being special snowflakes. I want to be a wanna be WAR with sword and shield!

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Is that better? :)