If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

NIN already brings the slashing debuff, but it's a DPS loss for them to use it. If you brought DRK + PLD, you'd have to bring a NIN, but you'd still be doing less DPS than X + WAR w/ NIN. A solution would possibly be to just make it so that DE isn't a DPS loss, but then you've got fights like A1S where NIN can only be on one of the bosses... in which case WAR would still be better to bring...

Anyway I don't think WAR needs a nerf, but I think the solution for a Path/Delirium/RoH balancing has to be either nerfing Path's effectiveness or buffing RoH/Delirium's.

For Eye, giving everyone the debuff wouldn't really affect WAR at all, but it would make all compositions viable in terms of DPS and you wouldn't kill your NIN's with DRK + PLD.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

NIN already brings the slashing debuff, but it's a DPS loss for them to use it. If you brought DRK + PLD, you'd have to bring a NIN, but you'd still be doing less DPS than X + WAR w/ NIN. A solution would possibly be to just make it so that DE isn't a DPS loss, but then you've got fights like A1S where NIN can only be on one of the bosses... in which case WAR would still be better to bring...

Anyway I don't think WAR needs a nerf, but I think the solution for a Path/Delirium/RoH balancing has to be either nerfing Path's effectiveness or buffing RoH/Delirium's.

For Eye, giving everyone the debuff wouldn't really affect WAR at all, but it would make all compositions viable in terms of DPS and you wouldn't kill your NIN's with DRK + PLD.

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If DE is made to be not a DPS loss, then Aeolian Edge would become a useless skill. It uses more TP than DE, has a positional for full potency, and has no extra effects.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

PLD + DRK would reduce the most overall damage, but WAR would still be best for any fight where one damage source is focused over the other. A4S is an example where PLD + DRK would shine, but then you've got fights like A1S where double DRK would be optimal, or A3S where PLD + WAR would be optimal.

What I've learned from thinking about this, though, is that Path/Delirium/RoH balance is very finicky. It's like Jenga or something. However, I don't think Path is actually the real problem right now - while Path is great, it isn't what's stopping DRK + PLD groups from existing. The issue is the lack of a slashing debuff, which is why I think giving all the tanks Eye would allow for DRK + PLD to exist without feeling severely underpowered compared to the other comps.

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My static comp has a drk/pld as the tanks. My friend as the drk, and myself as the pld. Honestly with both a drk, and pld in one group it kinda feels like a tug-o-war with pld feeling the need to mt since they do mitigate more dmg over the long term mainly from passive blocks from shields, but the drk feels even more inclined to mt with it's skills like Blood Price to regen mp, and also to active thier Reprisal skill after a suggessful parry for -10% dmg dealt from the enemy it is placed on, just like Storm's Path. There is some synergy between drk, and pld, but it does feel like we have to work a lot harder to make stuff work.

Now it is possible to take less dmg with a drk/pld combo from Reprisal -10% all dmg/Delirium-10% magic dmg/Halone -10% physical dmg, but it sure takes a lot more effort to have all those up at the right time, and also remember Reprisal is a skill the is hidden behind rng, and also has a cd for 30secs, but last for 20secs, so you could have Reprisal -10% all dmg mitigation for 40secs out of a minute in the extreme ideal scenario. But also again remember this dmg mitigation relies on rng, and the other 2 tanks applying thier -10% dmg mitigation moves, and there are a few other things drk/pld can do together aswell. But all in all you get a extra -10%magic or physical reducation depending on the class you are missing from a war/pld or war/drk comp, but lose out on 20secs of -10% all dmg mitigation in extreme ideal situtations. war/pld and war/drk is just a easier set up plus you get +10% slashing with a war.

I would like to see drk/pld as jobs get more abilities that gear them more for ot spot, more so for drks, since they don't really have much, since some of thier skills are lock away in needing to be the mt to use them.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

2. WAR + WAR would be the worst defensive comp imaginable. But I guess it would make up for it with high DPS? I dunno.

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I think double DRK is worse. They don't have utilities to support the other, unless the foe is a magic user, but even then it's made worse when a monk is around to dragon kick it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Anyway I don't think WAR needs a nerf, but I think the solution for a Path/Delirium/RoH balancing has to be either nerfing Path's effectiveness or buffing RoH/Delirium's.

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Yeah WARs don't need nerfs, everyone else needs a buff. Otherwise nothing gets fixed. D:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I think double DRK is worse. They don't have utilities to support the other, unless the foe is a magic user, but even then it's made worse when a monk is around to dragon kick it.

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Double of any class is generally not a good idea because the limit break build up is slower. (unless its easy content)

instead of looking at their skills, shouldn't we look at their shield? PLD should be prepared to defend themselves from magic, and the shield would be their answer. they don't need more damage, but should be capable of fully defending themselves. not being able to block magic is just silly.

for WAR, downgrade their armor to share with DRG, bump up base hp, add a parry buff in tank stance and they'll be fine, if a bit heal hungry. DK's are alright, but could use help with their sustain that doesn't rely on them main tanking.

i think the equipment used should reflect their abilities a bit better, rather than arguing over a second here and there in their kits. with this, PLD can handle magic damage. this opens up the healer to throw out a damage skill or 2 to offset the dps lost. WAR, has a larger pool for getting hit but requires more babysitting while putting out more dps. and DRK can be the happy medium.

had to clear 2/3 of what i wanted to say, so this may a little butchered.

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Originally Posted by Cygsiulle

Snip.

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You can bypass the 1000 char limit by posting then editing your post.

In actual fights, even if they contain magic damage, PLD mitigates ridiculous amounts. Here is a post with some analysis. So shield blocking magic might be too much. But I wouldn't care if a defensive class gets more defense.

WAR downgrading to DRG gear has 2 issues:
1- WAR already requires more healer attention and micromanagement of self-heals than the other two tanks, why make it more difficult?
2- You want WAR to be more parry focused but parry as a stat is unique to heavy armor. DRG gear will not have parry in it.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

ridiculous amounts.

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I believe your analysis is wrong. The purpose of our argument is that the Paladin should never be overcome or nearly overcome in defense if it is "specialized" in defense, according to SE. In essence, the disparity between Warrior and Dark Knight DPS in an encounter is much greater than the defensive advantages the Paladin has.

Because of this, there's really no reason to take a Paladin if a Warrior can do the fight and do more damage or if a Dark Knight can do the fight and do more damage. This is known as imbalance.

Breaking it down further, both tanks can do ALL content with or without a paladin and deal substantially higher damage - that is unacceptable.

You've stated before 5% is the difference between the tanks but it is much greater than that. Once again, a warrior is significantly higher than 5% in difference in an actual fight - look at the "final numbers" not just what can be done in three minutes on a dummy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anger

I believe your analysis is wrong. The purpose of our argument is that the Paladin should never be overcome or nearly overcome in defense if it is "specialized" in defense, according to SE. In essence, the disparity between Warrior and Dark Knight DPS in an encounter is much greater than the defensive advantages the Paladin has.

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My analysis is wrong because? Give me a single reason why it is. Give me a counter analysis of optimized rotations to support what you claim. Until then, I'm 100% correct since I've proven my case. With math.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anger

Because of this, there's really no reason to take a Paladin if a Warrior can do the fight and do more damage or if a Dark Knight can do the fight and do more damage. This is known as imbalance.

Breaking it down further, both tanks can do ALL content with or without a paladin and deal substantially higher damage - that is unacceptable.

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PLD can do all content without taking as much damage as WAR or DRK, that is unacceptable! We're all tanks!

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Originally Posted by Anger

You've stated before 5% is the difference between the tanks but it is much greater than that. Once again, a warrior is significantly higher than 5% in difference in an actual fight - look at the "final numbers" not just what can be done in three minutes on a dummy.

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On a dummy, the disparity is maximized. In actual fights, that difference is even smaller. You are yet to show me a case of a fully optimized PLD in a fight pulling more than 100 DPS behind WAR. Again, proof.

What you are saying is "I have no proof. I'm just gonna say you're wrong because I am right!" Which is, with all due respect, what Bulls*** is. Now stop being obnoxiously rude with the whole "You are wrong!" and provide proof or leave. Thank you. :)

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

My analysis is wrong because?

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That isn't how it works, Phoenicia. You posted some numbers regarding mitigation but you haven't posted any broken down mathematics for DPS. You have yet to show how or where you established the "less than 5%" difference between PLD and WAR.

In order for this to be acceptable evidence it has to be supported by proof and math that is broken down.

So no, you haven't proven your case. You've only made statements with percentages. Anyone can do that.

The burden of proof is on you because you've made an actual percentage claim so now please show me how you arrived at this percentage with broken down long form mathematics.

I will not "leave" as you requested. I will fight for the balance I expect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anger

That isn't how it works, Phoenicia. You posted some numbers regarding mitigation but you haven't posted any broken down mathematics for DPS. You have yet to show how or where you established the "less than 5%" difference between PLD and WAR.

In order for this to be acceptable evidence it has to be supported by proof and math that is broken down.

So no, you haven't proven your case. You've only made statements with percentages. Anyone can do that.

The burden of proof is on you because you've made an actual percentage claim so now please show me how you arrived at this percentage with broken down long form mathematics.

I will not "leave" as you requested. I will fight for the balance I expect.

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No the proof burden isn't on me as I have already provided a video of a PLD doing only 70 DPS less than WAR. I have also provided analysis of PLD mitigating "Magical damage" more than DRK. My case is "proven". Yours isn't. Again, here are my proves:

Mitigation Analysis

Dummy DPS.

A3S PLD vs WAR DPS; In this video the PLD is MAIN TANKING!

Also if you want, you can try to emulate the potency per minute of the three tank classes. You will see that actually PLD wins. lol

The Balance "you" expect is not balance at all. It is just what "you want". PLD already has a VERY superior defensive advantage. Stop crying because you're not the pampered princess MT of choice anymore.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

.

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The Paladin in the real-world video is benefiting from a slashing debuff and is receiving goad from the ninja. That proves nothing.

Grab a Paladin buddy and have them go into Shield Oath and you into Defiance or Grit and go to town.

Here's my proof and is more accurate as there's no goad and the two tanks are often on separate mobs.

The PLD Ends up in the 489 range with the WAR in 700+.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNKYztM27g

Here's an A3S video without a Ninja proving goad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2If0sgTJzFQ

The conclusion of the fight shows the Warrior at 744 dps and the Paladin at 612. That is 19.469% difference - almost a 20% lead. The Paladin is also stance dancing frequently.

between V1 = 744 and V2 = 612

( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100

= ( | 744 - 612 | / ((744 + 612)/2) ) * 100
= ( | 132 | / (1356/2) ) * 100
= ( 132 / 678 ) * 100
= 0.19469 * 100

= 19.469% difference

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Originally Posted by Anger

Here's my proof and is more accurate as there's no goad and the two tanks are often on separate mobs.

The PLD Ends up in the 489 range with the WAR in 700+.

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Did you just seriously link an A2S video? You did. You linked an A2S video.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Did you just seriously link an A2S video? You did. You linked an A2S video.

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I also linked an A3S video.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Did you just seriously link an A2S video? You did. You linked an A2S video.

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Here's an A1S video with the Paladin at 442 and the Warrior at 633. This is a 35% difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6DwKeAkKX0

between V1 = 442 and V2 = 633

( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100

= ( | 442 - 633 | / ((442 + 633)/2) ) * 100
= ( | -191 | / (1075/2) ) * 100
= ( 191 / 537.5 ) * 100
= 0.355349 * 100

= 35.5349% difference

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Originally Posted by Cygsiulle

instead of looking at their skills, shouldn't we look at their shield? PLD should be prepared to defend themselves from magic, and the shield would be their answer. they don't need more damage, but should be capable of fully defending themselves. not being able to block magic is just silly.

for WAR, downgrade their armor to share with DRG, bump up base hp, add a parry buff in tank stance and they'll be fine, if a bit heal hungry. DK's are alright, but could use help with their sustain that doesn't rely on them main tanking.

i think the equipment used should reflect their abilities a bit better, rather than arguing over a second here and there in their kits. with this, PLD can handle magic damage. this opens up the healer to throw out a damage skill or 2 to offset the dps lost. WAR, has a larger pool for getting hit but requires more babysitting while putting out more dps. and DRK can be the happy medium.

had to clear 2/3 of what i wanted to say, so this may a little butchered.

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Ah yes, the shield which the PLDs are too uncoordinated and stab happy to hold up at all times. They need to do more with it, like a barrier, cleave(AoE), or magic. Instead of this meh thing that RNG don't want to use more than half of the time.

For WAR. No, just no. They already have a parry buff with tank stance and nerfing only them doesn't fix anything.

And the problem is in fact the skills and passives.

And without Clemency, PLDs need more babysitting than both the DRK and WAR. Clemency is interruptible! (Self) Healing goes a very long way. And having inept AoE damage makes this a lot worse, because less damage=more work for everyone. And having Defenses similar in effectiveness as others isn't going to do at all, when the others can pull threat better AND also make fights end faster. DRK would be riding the same boat as PLD because their defenses are very similar, but they attack groups, evade, blind and lifesteal AoE at 56 but at a huge cost. As for WAR, they specialize in high HP and self healing, while being trusted to deal heavy damage. Most importantly, unlike the other two, WAR doesn't rely on RNG or long CDs to save themselves from a tankbuster at all, because they're the only ones with ACTIVE MITIGATION (that's effective unlike sheltron).

And sheltron is weak. Mildly reducing damage from one attack in a multihit tank buster is not my idea of effective and it must be physical. PLD's needs buffing.

Here is another A1S video proving that in the same fight both tanks can mitigate the same damage but one is substantially higher in DPS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSVGr_TYDL8

PLD 371 and War 541 is a 37% difference.

between V1 = 371 and V2 = 541

( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100

= ( | 371 - 541 | / ((371 + 541)/2) ) * 100
= ( | -170 | / (912/2) ) * 100
= ( 170 / 456 ) * 100
= 0.372807 * 100

= 37.2807% difference

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Originally Posted by Anger

The Paladin in the real-world video is benefiting from a slashing debuff and is receiving goad from the ninja. That proves nothing.

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Okay, that's not how it works.

You see, by the end of my video, the WAR did 800 DPS, the PLD did 730. You linked a video of a group where the WAR did 100 DPS less than the WAR in my video and the PLD did 130 less. What you proved here is a group on Sargatanas have worse DPS than the Spriggan's Army. A bad video.

What you need to do to prove me wrong is link a video of a WAR in the same gear (ilv200 weapon average ilv193) in A3S doing over 830 DPS while main tanking to prove that WAR can do over 100 DPS more than PLD.

That's how proof works. Not linking a video of bads. Not linking a video of intentionally handicapping a PLD to prove that it does less DPS? Otherwise, I'll record a video of my WAR with leveling gear doing SP only and never using Fell Cleave and post it here as "evidence" WAR does not do DPS.

On a second thought, I will not take you seriously anymore. You linked A2S lol.

Let's compare SMN AoE DPS to NIN, shall we?

EDIT: Your A1S video is of a PLD never leaving Shield Oath vs a WAR who went into Deliverance a lot. Again, should I post a video of my ilv160 axe WAR and ilv148 gear and say the class's DPS is poop?

EDIT 2: I watched your A2S for funzies. How do you find these videos of such baddies? Are you intentionally looking for the worst examples possible? WAR doing 800 DPS in that fight is blasphemy! Lol.... I have videos of WARs doing over 1020 from 3 weeks ago (ilv190 weapon).

A2S: Literally an AOE fight, of course PLD is going to be lower than WAR lol

A3S: A3S is actually skewed in WAR's favor due to adds in the tornado phase (Decimate, IB, etc.) and the high amount of up-time in the final phase. If you look at the parse Pho posted with Goad/TA/etc., PLD's DPS is much higher. Also the last phase is heavy on RNG, if you get +/- you're losing GCDs. If you rewatch the video you posted, you can also see the PLD gets slammed into the electric water at one point.

A1S: Seperate bosses, bad players, PLD can spend 99% of that fight in SwO as well as Hallowed the 2nd Plasma and allow for more healer DPS. With a NIN on the PLD's Oppressor and with proper SwO usage, the PLD would be a lot higher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In actual fights, even if they contain magic damage, PLD mitigates ridiculous amounts. . . . . So shield blocking magic might be too much. But I wouldn't care if a defensive class gets more defense.

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Oh yes, and after all the CDs are gone, you better start praying to the white mage or RNGsus to save you.

And no, blocking magic wouldn't be too much. We as tanks want to build on defense, but the game is built around things of little effectiveness, which means things deal more forgiving damage. Couple that with the gimped threat multipliers and even more gimped capacity for producing it (low potencies+damage reduction) then you got yourselves loads of tanks who can get away with being pure STR, which devalues the defenses even more and us all look like glorified damage dealers with extra armor and it just so happens the PLD sucks the most in every aspect thanks to their glaring weaknesses and lack of strengths beyond the long CDs and RNG.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Oh yes, and after all the CDs are gone, you better start praying to the white mage or RNGsus to save you.

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Why are all your CDs gone? You should use your CDs to mitigate tank busters not random damage. If you properly use your CDs you'll never run out of CDs. Are we even tanking in the same game?

Blocking magic on a tank that already takes less damage than everyone else is a bit much. But as I said, I don't care if the defensive tank got more defense. It gives me more reasons to tell them to shut up about DPS.

All this garble about building defensively and threat multipliers... How does this relate? PLD threat multipliers are getting fixed, Yoshi-P said so. Low potencies? PLD has higher potencies than WAR. The difference is PLD's enmity just happens to be on its lowest combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

A1S: Seperate bosses, bad players, PLD can spend 99% of that fight in SwO as well as Hallowed the 2nd Plasma and allow for more healer DPS. With a NIN on the PLD's Oppressor and with proper SwO usage, the PLD would be a lot higher.

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Most extremes, whenever there is two tanks had tank swapping in mind. It's why the tankbusters don't line up to the PLD's long CDs often; where as most fights that requires both tanks to tank a multi boss like the Oppressor 1.0&0.5 whom both do their tankbusterd up to 3 times over the course of roughly 8 minutes, the PLD would not have such issues. (Sad day for healing)

The part I find more frustrating about it all of this is that a lot of the PLDs I've seen that do make it in past content like coils and Odin, took the hits totally unmitigated, unless the busters were coupled with something else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You can bypass the 1000 char limit by posting then editing your post.

In actual fights, even if they contain magic damage, PLD mitigates ridiculous amounts. Here is a post with some analysis. So shield blocking magic might be too much.

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good to know about that limit thing. i'm starting to see a pattern with silly features here with work around making them kinda... stupid.

from the post you linked, the 2 classes do come off as similar, with the biggest difference i saw as the DA + DM giving the DRK a few more options for magic mitigation, since they have more skills to work with. putting a chance to block magic on the shield, and then mitigate it based on intelligence, as strength mitigates physical (or used to, i seem to recall reading something that removed this feature) even if at best they're only blocking around 15% of the time, for maybe 10% magic reduction on block, it gives them a more constant manner in which to deal with magic, as they should be able to do. this wouldn't quite put them above the DRK's stuff, but as those are based on actually using a skill with a cd, such a trade off wouldn't be that bad. (granted, i'm not advocating making shields actually block a % of damage, just using the % to give a vague estimation of what would actually be blocked after calculations)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cygsiulle

and for the really intensive fights, it would relegate them to the off tank role, which they already are anyway. they'd just be slightly squishier with a proper reason for having a higher damage output.

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Please no, WARs want to main tank too! lol. It's already bad that WAR has the stigma of being an "OT class" when its toolkit screams "I'm more fit for MT!" No please, do not relegate it any further into the OT spot. There is nothing WAR does specifically as OT, it can't do as MT. It doesn't have casts that could be interrupted for example! :p (hint hint)

SE should be doing the opposite, it should give more reasons to make people WANT PLD or DRK OT. The main reason people are running PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR but not PLD/DRK is for that exact reason. Both PLD and DRK feel they are more fit for MT but not OT while it's not true. I was actually surprised DRK didn't bring its own slashing debuff.

Also large HP pools without proper mitigation are just "large MP drains". As a matter of fact, that is EXACTLY why WAR was bad in 2.0. There is a reason a healing boost is attached to Defiance. Just giving WAR a larger HP pool while killing its mitigation will make it worse than what it was at 2.0. Giving it parry is not good because parry is RNG and not reliable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Why are all your CDs gone? You should use your CDs to mitigate tank busters not random damage. If you properly use your CDs you'll never run out of CDs. Are we even tanking in the same game?

Low potencies? PLD has higher potencies than WAR.

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Don't lie. You simply can't have CDs for every single unavoidable buster in fights where they spam it every 20~30 seconds. The only way you'd have a CD late in the fight is if you've been relying on the healers to buffer you instead, had healers carry you though hell(sort of redundant to the last point but I mean it to a more extreme level) and/or you swapped tanks. Or did you even do the final coils and Odin to know that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Low potencies? PLD has higher potencies than WAR.

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I'm just going to ignore you now. :|

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Don't lie. You simply can't have CDs for every single unavoidable buster in fights where they spam it every 20~30 seconds.

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Inner Beast says Hello to you.

Inner Beast needs 7 GCDs to be recharged + 1 GCD to use. 7 x 2.5 = 17.5. + 2.5 = 20s. Any skillspeed reduces that "CD" and using Berserk, Vengeance and Raw Intuition reduce that by even further.

You're a warrior, don't you know your own class?

Also there isn't a single encounter where you have a buster every 20~30 seconds. Most frequent Buster was Death Sentence (35s) and it was supposed to be a tank swap fight. You also have Titan Ex with 35s table flips.

Hence I don't think we're playing the same game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I'm just going to ignore you now. :|

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Yes, look at the skills. Outside of Fell Cleave, EVERYTHING a WAR has a PLD has same or higher potency. Check this post.

I'll copy and paste:

DRKTotal Potency Per Minute
8400 Base
10063 w/ 5 Dark Arts + Darkside

PLD Total Potency Per Minute
8322 Base
9389 w/ FoF

WAR Total Potency Per Minute
6150
7380 w/ Maim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

EDIT 2: I watched your A2S for funzies. How do you find these videos of such baddies? Are you intentionally looking for the worst examples possible? WAR doing 800 DPS in that fight is blasphemy! Lol.... I have videos of WARs doing over 1020 from 3 weeks ago (ilv190 weapon).

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Essentially, every video on YouTube with a Paladin losing by much more than 5% as you previously stated, you will label a "baddie?" You do realize that there are TONS of these videos on YouTube blatantly showing a 20 - 30% damage lead in favor of the Warrior with few, if any, showing the Warrior losing the DPS race or that the percentage is within 5%.

You can look on YouTube for your self and call them all "baddies" if you'd like but there is a blatant truth that Warrior can do much, much greater damage than a Paladin and still tank the same fight with just as much ease.

Remember your entire analysis is surrounding YOUR personal experience. You need to look beyond that and realize that not everyone is going to be a "pro player" but that doesn't change the fact that the Warrior has a significant damage advantage. In essence, if the same skill level is applied to both classes the warrior will always lead DPS and tank just as well.

At this point, you're basically arguing what color the sky is and I'm saying it's blue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anger

Remember your entire analysis is surrounding YOUR personal experience. You need to look beyond that and realize that not everyone is going to be a "pro player" but that doesn't change the fact that the Warrior has a significant damage advantage. In essence, if the same skill level is applied to both classes the warrior will always lead DPS and tank just as well.

At this point, you're basically arguing what color the sky is and I'm saying it's blue.

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What dps are you comparing here? the dps of the fight? It's gonna be favoring whoever was allowed to be in dps stance the longest or have to most uptime through out the fight. You have to look at the overall dps that can be put out by both tanks. Pally ot with warrior Mt will be more dps then a pally Mt and a warrior ot. They BOTH will put out respectable numbers if able to stay out of tank stance 100%of the fight. The dummy parses show the dps gap between all 3 are just rediculously low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Inner Beast says Hello to you.

Inner Beast needs 7 GCDs to be recharged + 1 GCD to use. 7 x 2.5 = 17.5. + 2.5 = 20s. Any skillspeed reduces that "CD" and using Berserk, Vengeance and Raw Intuition reduce that by even further.

You're a warrior, don't you know your own class?

Also there isn't a single encounter where you have a buster every 20~30 seconds. Most frequent Buster was Death Sentence (35s) and it was supposed to be a tank swap fight. You also have Titan Ex with 35s table flips.

Hence I don't think we're playing the same game.



Yes, look at the skills. Outside of Fell Cleave, EVERYTHING a WAR has a PLD has same or higher potency. Check this post.

I'll copy and paste:

DRKTotal Potency Per Minute
8400 Base
10063 w/ 5 Dark Arts + Darkside

PLD Total Potency Per Minute
8322 Base
9389 w/ FoF

WAR Total Potency Per Minute
6150
7380 w/ Maim

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I'm going to make this part clear. I know I said I'm going to ignore but this. This is a perfect example why I'm going to ignore you. You twist things to make it sound like you know what you're talking about. Inner Beast is NOT a CD, taking time to build resources for it doesn't change that, and I am talking about Paladins. I wonder which part of that did you chose to exclude. I'm just not going to bother with someone who'd want to make up stuff, or my favorite "I can make it work therefore no problem" because it's an obvious fallacy. You can make underpowered things work but that doesn't mean it's not underpowered just because you can make it work. And if you don't understand that, then there's no point in arguing with you.

And here you go blindly just spout numbers from someone who admits they don't know warrior numbers, but lets not consider that part just so as long it supports what ever crap elitist argument you're trying to make. And nobody even liked that post you linked either. Every tank is stronger than the PLD, move on, focus on the important things such as their defense and why they usually aren't anyone's #1 choice to bring along.
Warriors can perpetually maintain a 33% damage boost anytime they want, PLDs can not. Add another 5% thanks to DPS stance. Mix all that with Berserk and you've literally doubled your non-crit damage, meaning that when you do a critical under this state, you've dealt triple the damage. And anytime a warrior bursts like that, a PLD is never going to be on top. It doesn't even take the best to see that.

And I'm not replying to you again. So argue how you think I'm not playing the game you made up all you want, but I'm going to play Final Fantasy 14: Heavensward where Paladins are underpowered and as rare as Fenrir(mount) because of it, and that DRK and WAR are way more common and better for and at the job right now. And the reason why this thread exists.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Don't lie. You simply can't have CDs for every single unavoidable buster in fights where they spam it every 20~30 seconds. The only way you'd have a CD late in the fight is if you've been relying on the healers to buffer you instead, had healers carry you though hell(sort of redundant to the last point but I mean it to a more extreme level) and/or you swapped tanks. Or did you even do the final coils and Odin to know that?

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There's no fight in FCoB that has a tank buster PLD wouldn't have a CD up for. This includes solo tanking T12 and T13. Odin is the same, it has one tank buster.

Alex, Savage or otherwise, also has no point where PLD would run out of CDs.

The fastest back-to-back tank buster was Twin's Death Sentence and PLD was fine for that in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

snip

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I think Im going to cry. Because Im so underpowered, you know.

I REALLY hope, SE notices all the qq and buffs paladins, because THEN we will have an OP class.

Also a little reminder: http://i.imgur.com/DxHKHUp.png

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Originally Posted by Lanier

I think Im going to cry. Because Im so underpowered, you know.

I REALLY hope, SE notices all the qq and buffs paladins, because THEN we will have an OP class.

Also a little reminder: http://i.imgur.com/DxHKHUp.png

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Their already looking into the enmity issues. But may be to all tanks and not soloing out PLD. ;x But Imma laugh if it is.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Their already looking into the enmity issues. But may be to all tanks and not soloing out PLD. ;x But Imma laugh if it is.

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You will only have enmity issues if you are 100% of the time in swo and not even touching RoH combo once. Oh god, I think I will cry a little more.

Anger! This is your tenth thread on this subject. You're killing me. I come to the tanking section to find info not whining.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Yes, look at the skills. Outside of Fell Cleave, EVERYTHING a WAR has a PLD has same or higher potency. Check this post.

I'll copy and paste:

DRKTotal Potency Per Minute
8400 Base
10063 w/ 5 Dark Arts + Darkside

PLD Total Potency Per Minute
8322 Base
9389 w/ FoF

WAR Total Potency Per Minute
6150
7380 w/ Maim

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yeaaah those numbers are incredibly awful and I'm legitimately shocked you're hyping them.

You want to use Berserk for a 3x Fell Cleave rotation that you can spam every time Berserk comes back up, assuming any content outside of alexander Savage (inside of it it's not quite safe to go for the 3x fell cleave hail mary fight dependent until we get better gear/knowledge of fights), you should be able to have at least 2520 potency from that alone.

Also you only use fracture right before the 3rd Fell Cleave in Berserk now because it's a DPS loss to apply it at any other time. You need something like 540 skill speed to do that tho.


Seriously if you're going to sprout numbers sprout ACCURATE ones.

Assuming a one minute rotation (which is going to make warrior incredibly OP anyway), the actual potency should be

Following assumptions are that Deliverance is up 24/7, and that saving Infuriate and Raw Intuition is not a concern.

Rotation is Heavy Swing --> Maim --> Storm's Eye + Brutal Swing --> Heavy Swing --> Skull Sunder --> Butcher's Block --> Heavy Swing + Berserk + Internal Release --> Fell Cleave --> Maim --> Storm's Eye --> Heavy Swing + Brutal Swing--> Skull Sunder ---> Butcher's Block + Raw Intuition --> Fell Cleave + Infuriate --> Fracture --> Fell Cleave --> Pacified for 5s, thus mising roughly 2 GCDs --> Heavy Swing --> Maim --> Storm's Eye --> Heavy Swing --> Skull Sunder --> Butcher's Block ( just barely can't fit a 3rd brutal swing somewhere near the end of this)

For a total of 24 GCDs

157.5 + 199.5 + 337.5 + 138.75 + 208.125 + 277.5 + 416.25 + 208.125 + 971.25 + 369.075 + 524.47500 + 291.37500 + 194.25 + 388.5 + 543.9 + 971.25 + 536 + 971.5 + 208.125 + 211.1775 + 299.9775 + 208.125 + 277.5 + 388.5 = 9298.23 potency without any crits

This ignores any potential crits or auto attacks, and the actual damage of this will be way higher than suggested, as both Internal Release and Deliverance's crit chance will play a heavy factor in damage, and even a single fell cleave crit (incredibly likely) is a huge increase in damage dealt relative to the other two tanks source of DPS, as neither of them have any singular hit that comes close to Fell Cleave (even carve and split doesn't come close). This also ignores Battle Litany, and Trick Attack, as those two in combination with a warrior's incredibly high opening burst relative to the other two tanks also considerably increases its damage dealt. And if a warrior gets their pacification cleansed, the total potency of this rises by an additional Skull Sunder + Maim, for a total of 9288 + 166.7775 + 211.1775 = 9665.955 potency. And with enough Skill Speed, this becomes a 25 GCD rotation, which in turn becomes 9665.955 + 693.75 = 10359.705 potency

HS -> Maim -> Eye -> [Brutal] -> HS -> Maim -> Eye -> [Pot] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> FC -> Infuriate -> FC -> [Raw Intuition] -> Skull Sunder -> Butcher's Block -> [Brutal] -> HS -> Maim -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC -> Pacified -> HS -> [Brutal] -> Maim -> Eye -> HS -> SS -> BB

2 FCs benefiting from Battle Litany + IR + Berserk + Pot, 1 FC benefiting from Berserk. You also don't want to end on BB before Fracture -> Fell Cleave because Eye will fall off (but I guess if we're just talking WAR solo for 1 minute, BB would probably be a gain). Brutal is up every 8 GCDs after you've used it, so you can fit in 3 due to pacification counting as 2 GCDs/5s.

Anyway WAR has high burst, more at 11.

e: Also Fracture is still a DPS gain outside of Berserk, and it only takes 470~ to hit the 9th GCD zerk. Closer to 500 is safer, 540 is a bit excessive but WAR doesn't really care about having more SS since it has infinite TP.

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Originally Posted by Lanier

I think Im going to cry. Because Im so underpowered, you know.

I REALLY hope, SE notices all the qq and buffs paladins, because THEN we will have an OP class.

Also a little reminder: http://i.imgur.com/DxHKHUp.png

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Viable=/=Good

Decent=/=Good

Just Enough=/=Good

And by the way you coded the [img] wrong.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

MATH!

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Closer to 500 is safer, 540 is a bit excessive but WAR doesn't really care about having more SS since it has infinite TP.

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As long as you do NOT conserve your Wrath/Abandonment (free GCD=60TP back), stay in a stance, and use equilibrium (restores TP every minute while in DPS stance) often, then you will never run out of TP. At least in any real single target circumstance.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I'm going to make this part clear. I know I said I'm going to ignore but this. This is a perfect example why I'm going to ignore you. You twist things to make it sound like you know what you're talking about. Inner Beast is NOT a CD, taking time to build resources for it doesn't change that, and I am talking about Paladins

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This all depends on your perception. Think like a warrior. If I IB for 1.2k, is that not a 1.2k heal? If you do that twice it beats ToB at 10k hp. IB may not be a CD by definition, but it's used as such. If you play warrior, you must play it through palidans eyes, otherwise you would understand that warrior dps is part of warrior mitigation.
It seems to me, when you think about it as a warrior, this thread is about people misunderstanding how war is played, like war dps is just for funzies.