Is anyone else disappointed by the lack of Long Term Goals?

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

FFXI was unpopular for a lot of reasons.

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Tbh, it was "unpopular" because SE did almost zero advertising for it outside Japan. I remember back in 2005 going to buy XI and almost none of the employees at the store had heard of it when asking if they have it in stock. SE did a single (1) commercial for it back in 2002 and that was it for outside Japan.

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Originally Posted by Gardthorne

Stopped reading.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Seriously for all you people think FFXI is a godsend.
GO BACK TO THERE.

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>_> When I see people who instantly put down XI, it really makes me feel they've never played it before and only read things / assume what they think XI was. Fun fact - Actually experiencing it has a completely different effect than reading / assuming things.

And to the people who've never played XI and white knight the crap out of XIV. The XIV you know wouldn't be here if it wasn't for XI(SE took development from XI/money and funded XIV not once, but twice, causing XI to drop in development for a few years), so think about that before you instantly go to bash XI.

I'm sorry if this is your first mmo, but if you had played for over a decade like a lot of us, you'd realize that XIV has a lot of bad game designs that make it less of a mmo and more of a mobile game for people who want everything right now and the way they want it. Long term goals are what keep people playing, so there's always that one thing thats out of reach but they still try for it. That's how you keep people subscribed.

Look at older mmos, people stayed subscribed every single month and played every day, for years. Newer ones like XIV? People play for a month when a new update is out, then quit for 2-4 months or just quit all together because everything is handed to you so what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

What's wrong with that? Must everything be instant gratification now?

As long as you had fun getting it. What's the problem?

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Explain to me, please, how something is going to be instant gratification if it doesn't take over a year to acquire, in a game. There is at least a 12 month gap between the so called "instant gratification" and the "hard earned" <insert pixelated item name here>. FFXI was constantly shoving gating to us in all directions. Anything that mattered in that game was either behind a super absurd time lockout or an even more retarded drop rate percentage. And for the best stuff, of course, both.

Is that fun? If I tell you that you would have to go through the effort of only lifting your right arm and I'd give you a prize next week instead of giving the prize to you at this instant would you be happier / more satisfied? The effort you put for that price was the same, I just withheld it from you because of X reason (in SQX's case, extending the life of content.) Arguably, if I told you to lift your arm every day until that time which you are given the price, that requires more effort, but repetition is considered by most as something tedious and not fun, which directly contradicts what usually one plays a game for. Difficulty, complications are fun. I'm all for Savage modes of everything and all that sort of stuff. Overcoming those things really is the achievement. Dragging a reward for days on end like a carrot on a stick is not really leave people with a sense of gratification, but of relief that the damn thing is finally over.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

>_> When I see people who instantly put down XI, it really makes me feel they've never played it before and only read things / assume what they think XI was. Fun fact - Actually experiencing it has a completely different effect than reading / assuming things.

And to the people who've never played XI and white knight the crap out of XIV. The XIV you know it wouldn't be here if it wasn't for XI(SE took development from XI/money and funded XIV not once, but twice, causing XI to drop in development for a few years), so think about that before you instantly go to bash XI.

I'm sorry if this is your first mmo, but if you had played for over a decade like a lot of us, you'd realize that XIV has a lot of bad game designs that make it less of a mmo and more of a mobile game for people who want everything right now and the way they want it. Long term goals are what keep people playing, so there's always that one thing thats out of reach but they still try for it. That's how you keep people subscribed.

Look at older mmos, people stayed subscribed every single month and played every day. Newer ones like XIV? People play for a month when a new update is out, then quit for 2-4 months or just quit all together because everything is handed to you so what's the point? [/B]

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One last try and then i give up this thread since logic doesn't seem to work here.

I have nothing against FFXI or any of its ideas.

The issue i have is threads like this that are 100% pure bashing. It is useless not constructive and above all, completely and utterly pointless.

How about for once, make a constructive thread with ideas, for once actually use more arguments then "FFXI used it" and people will be a lot more open.

But no, all we get is bash thread after bash thread how FFXIV is a bad a game and we should all be grateful to the almighty FFXI and it's playerbase.

PS: Don't EVER try to outgrandpa me with the whole "it's your first mmo but i have a lot more experience". It is utterly disgusting and full of assumptions.
I have been playing mmo's before FFXI was even born, just saying.

I really believe people have had enough of "long-term goals" because too many elitists made those types of items a requirement to do any endgame content. XIV doesn't need "Ochain/Aegis PLD only" nonsense in Party Finder. The first Relics had their days in the sun, now it's time to move forward to the next generation of Relics.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

One last try and then i give up this thread since logic doesn't seem to work here.

I have nothing against FFXI or any of its ideas.

The issue i have is threads like this that are 100% pure bashing. It is useless not constructive and above all, completely and utterly pointless.

How about for once, make a constructive thread with ideas, for once actually use more arguments then "FFXI used it" and people will be a lot more open.

But no, all we get is bash thread after bash thread how FFXIV is a bad a game and we should all be grateful to the almighty FFXI and it's playerbase.

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>_> Complains about bashing. Was the first one to start bashing in the topic. You're the one who opened up with telling people to go back to XI lol

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

>_> When I see people who instantly put down XI, it really makes me feel they've never played it before and only read things / assume what they think XI was. Fun fact - Actually experiencing it has a completely different effect than reading / assuming things.

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I think because I played FFXI so much that I know for a fact a lot of ideas people are suggesting is bad. FFXI does have things that would be great additions. Again, people want archaic designs to come back that require completely changing how FFXIV and it's context works. When you come up with a suggestion, you are better off trying to find a way to make it work into the context of the game and not just stick it in there and put a piece of tape over it.

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And to the people who've never played XI and white knight the crap out of XIV. The XIV you know it wouldn't be here if it wasn't for XI(SE took development from XI/money and funded XIV not once, but twice, causing XI to drop in development for a few years), so think about that before you instantly go to bash XI.

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I don't think most people in here hate FFXI. I love the game and will goof around in it if I have nothing going on. We just know the the genre has evolved since 2002 and some things that developers could get away with back then would not work today.

FFXIV definitely has more than it's fair share of issues and some things do need some changing, but FFXI is definitely not something to look at in bright lights either. FFXI had the worst job balance, grinding, extremely slow paced end game progression that I had ever played. It was friends and the story line that kept me going.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

Explain to me, please, how something is going to be instant gratification if it doesn't take over a year to acquire, in a game. There is at least a 12 month gap between the so called "instant gratification" and the "hard earned" <insert pixelated item name here>. FFXI was constantly shoving gating to us in all directions. Anything that mattered in that game was either behind a super absurd time lockout or an even more retarded drop rate percentage. And for the best stuff, of course, both.

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Context man.

There is nothing wrong with rewards that require a lot of effort to get. What kind of "effort" is a separate issue.

I think we all agree that "effort" that involves doing the same thing over and over and over again is not the most fun.

However that isn't the only kind of "effort".

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

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Agreed with everything you said.

I'm starting to feel everyone that failed at FFXI are the ones becoming FFXIV White Knights enjoying handouts since they never managed to acheive certain FFXI gears or progress themselves.

As much as I loved FFXI, that was one of the worst MMOs I've ever played before, the only thing to keep ppl interested was there friends, the content was ridiculously to long that "casual" players I.e. Ppl with a job, school or life could never catch up to the hardcore players so please stop lol that game fell off for many obvious reasons and no company is going to sacrifice the influx of money from this one to appeal to a small community of ppl who want timesink content back, and someone said it best we don't need pf saying dumb stuff like "zeta weps required (just an example)" -_- they already say enough of that dumb stuff now.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

I'm starting to feel everyone that failed at FFXI are the ones becoming FFXIV White Knights enjoying handouts since they never managed to acheive certain FFXI gears or progress themselves.

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Do I count as an XIV white knight if I spent all of the years of XI's existence ignoring it in favor of EverQuest and Lineage II and now this game?

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

I'm starting to feel everyone that failed at FFXI are the ones becoming FFXIV White Knights enjoying handouts since they never managed to acheive certain FFXI gears or progress themselves.

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You are vastly overestimating the amount of people who even gave the tiniest shit about FF11. No one except the people who played FF11 care anything at all about it, it was old when it was released and has little bearing on development of a new MMO.

I tried XI. Couldn't get past the Dunes. Any leveling party I got disbanded 15-20 minutes later cuz someone had to go. I don't think I ever even unlocked subjobs.

So yeah, my view of XI was that it was pointlessly difficult to even level up as a newbie.
Its one thing to have long-term goals. Its quite another to make those goals stupid and annoying. Do all you XI vets think that the XIV relic quest was good? It was locked behind RNG, that thing that was amazingly prevalent in XI. I liked the quest, it gave me something to do without being stupidly unobtainable.

XI has a free week coming up soon, you guys should go back, ignore the post-abyssea stuff you always complain about, and level up a character once the old fashioned way, see if its still just as good as it was back then

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Context man.

There is nothing wrong with rewards that require a lot of effort to get. What kind of "effort" is a separate issue.

I think we all agree that "effort" that involves doing the same thing over and over and over again is not the most fun.

However that isn't the only kind of "effort".

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Indeed, my good sir. Which is exactly the case I'm trying to make here.

Gordias (Savage) is the only endgame this game has. Now, to get the rewards from that dungeon one has to:

* Spend countless hours learning and perfecting strategies for each of the four instances
* Collecting chest drops to complete the Gordian armor set
* Farm (1/numberOfJobs chances each time, not bad) a weapon from the last instance

Learning fights is usually fun. It's something new. And once each team has them down, when the repetition comes, groups usually have the experience to blow past the tediousness or repeating each fight with ease on their weekly basis. And all of this takes time. Easily over 3 months for the average endgame group to complete their farming. Would you agree that things are being handed out even if they are waiting behind a much harder to beat content that XI's endgame and a one week lockout per instance?

Most of us Europeans on a even more horrid time zone than you that have children jobs etc still managed to get to work with camping nms waking up during crazy hours for events and even doing the dunes parties etc and you gave up?

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Most of us Europeans on a even more horrid time zone than you that have children jobs etc still managed to get to work with camping nms waking up during crazy hours for events and even doing the dunes parties etc and you gave up?

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This post is sad.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I really believe people have had enough of "long-term goals" because too many elitists made those types of items a requirement to do any endgame content. XIV doesn't need "Ochain/Aegis PLD only" nonsense in Party Finder. The first Relics had their days in the sun, now it's time to move forward to the next generation of Relics.

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Just before 3.0 when Zodiac was bis, where were those
Zodiac only party finder groups at?

Stop using that played out excuse that if a rare item that requires long periods of grinding is released it'll be required for endgame.

Instrumentality: Its pretty much saying if we can get it to work whats the problem? Its not sad we enjoyed the game so much we decided to play this its our decision. If we can get that to work and adapt to the US/JP timezones and someone from US timezones still cant get it right thats the sad part honestly.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

I'm starting to feel everyone that failed at FFXI are the ones becoming FFXIV White Knights enjoying handouts since they never managed to acheive certain FFXI gears or progress themselves.

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Can't make any arguments at this point, so call them White Knights. That always ends well.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Instrumentality: Its pretty much saying if we can get it to work whats the problem? Its not sad we enjoyed the game so much we decided to play this its our decision. If we can get that to work and adapt to the US/JP timezones and someone from US timezones still cant get it right thats the sad part honestly.

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IDK something about adapting your life schedule around a video game when you have children and real life going on is sad.

Instrumentality: so just because you enjoy something and decide to dedicate time to it it makes you sad? Its not like anyones life was ruined by FFXI or they lost their job from what I know. Kinda pathetic imo to even call someone sad just because something they enjoy or have as a hobby doesn't fit in your world.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Instrumentality: so just because you enjoy something and decide to dedicate time to it it makes you sad? Its not like anyones life was ruined by FFXI or they lost their job from what I know. Kinda pathetic imo to even call someone sad just because something they enjoy or have as a hobby doesn't fit in your world.

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People got sick from fighting one round of Pandemonium Warden for 18 hours straight and SE was pretty much forced to add an enrage timer to the boss.

Velhart: yea cause FFXI is like FFXIV Pandemonium Warden was the Alexander of endgame and was the only endgame content we didnt have any other endgame content ever..

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Instrumentality: so just because you enjoy something and decide to dedicate time to it it makes you sad? Its not like anyones life was ruined by FFXI or they lost their job from what I know. Kinda pathetic imo to even call someone sad just because something they enjoy or have as a hobby doesn't fit in your world.

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Oh my god. I had to respond to this. Were you never on Zam (Allakhazam for us oldies)? Lucky if a month went by where someones life was ruined in someway by the game, that is being generous. Or oh my god the hate in lower jueno.

The biggest thing that comes up as a plus and a minus from XI, is vertical progression. They have been pretty clear about vertical progression. So that leaves you to come up with other ideas from XI. I do like the tower idea with 100 randomized floors working your way up.

XI succeeds by the friendships made. You could actually end up some days spending more time with people in the game then real people (might be pathetic). So you definitely had to become part of a community. You were literally in it together due to the horrible grind. You couldn't progress without others.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Velhart: yea cause FFXI is like FFXIV Pandemonium Warden was the Alexander of endgame and was the only endgame content we didnt have any other endgame content ever..

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I wasn't comparing, you said people were not affected by the game's set up. That 18 hour one round fight made the group trying to beat it very sick and could of made it even worse if they kept pursuing it. Sure it is an extreme, but anything addicting can harm you in the long run if you do not pace yourself correctly.

STormrider: well are still playing an MMORPG if i want to solo stuff I can go play skyrim or something. Regardless though what we vision of happening will never be a reality thats the harsh facts. I know im not the first person with some FFXI elements and im not the last. If they wanted to add anything like that it would have been a while back or atleast announced or tried out.

Velhart: Again we dont want the bad things from FFXI we want stuff that made the game good..

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

I'm surprised the white knights of this thread have not attacked you yet like they do me whenever I post similiar topics.
No one wants a new FFXI we want elements from FFXI try and combine vertical and horizontal progressions so the game can cater to both sides and not just casuals only.
Just use stuff from FFXI wich made it so good and enjoyable and learn from it. No need to take everything from WoW. The community just gets lazier because people know stuff gets nerfed eventually and everyone can have everything for half your effort but not at the start as you pretty much.

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I recall a post a year or so ago about wanting open world bosses and for dangerous zones exclusively for high level players. There were several people who suggested something akin to the FFXI Notorious Monsters and high level mobs that the game had, which would perfectly fit what was suggested. Some supporters of the want for the open world content shut down those ideas simply for the reason that it was FFXI and that these people who even mention XI should just go back to that "horrible" game lol. They're arguing for the same side but still meet hate. To put it lightly, people are really REALLY stupid when it comes to their own bias. This player base... 10/10, best community ever.

Welsper59: thats just sad to see. Yet the same people praise WoW gaming mentality instead like thats so awesome.. :P

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I tried XI. Couldn't get past the Dunes. Any leveling party I got disbanded 15-20 minutes later cuz someone had to go. I don't think I ever even unlocked subjobs.

So yeah, my view of XI was that it was pointlessly difficult to even level up as a newbie.

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lol Most people's hate towards FFXI is because they had one or more negative experiences that weren't entirely the game's fault. If a person had to go, well, they had to go, what can you do about that? Leveling as a newbie was never hard even when sometimes you had to wait for people to show up or even better, I didn't wait, I created my own parties, even with the non conventional setups ever instead of waiting for something to drop from the sky. That's how I got through Valkurm Dunes and Qufim levels. Actually, the entire trip to 75, on multiple jobs. Also, friends helped. Lots.

Is it a coincidence that the people who have a good opinion about 11 are the ones that put a little effort to overcome these little inconveniences and got to see what the whole game had to offer after overcoming this instead of complaining how "hard" and "tedious" the game was?

You know all of you bashing on people who like FFXI should start realizing that most of those people you are bashing on are the reason we have FFXIV 2.0 at all. The legacy players, the ones that played FFXI first then tried FFXIV and stayed to support the game is what made FFXIV 2.0 possible. Hell, I even bet part of the profits from FFXI went onto FFXIV's development. You really should have some damn respect and stop acting like White Knights who can never see any wrong with the game we currently have. You know constructive criticism is harsh but absolute necessary for something to improve. You guys jump on people who dare mention FFXI like if you were wild beasts. Comments like "go play FFXI", "there's a life outside the game, go do that instead of wanting to make the eso cap per job because then my little special me would feel oh so pressured to cap eso on all my jobs" (wtf? seriously? and while not directly related, still shows how this community is) are incredibly ridiculous and just shows how immature this community (at least on the OF) is...

Considering at the time you couldn't level up without a party, it WAS the games fault. I did try making my own parties, for 2 weeks. I was about 15 at the time, in school, didn't have time to spend 8-14 hours a day trying to get a party to do stuff. After 2 weeks, getting i think a total of 1 level in the Dunes, I just gave up, the game wasn't for me.

Considering I was a beginner with none of the prejudices of XI, I didn't know there were conventional set-ups :P I was simply trying to level up so I could unlock SAM and have some fun. Probably would have liked the game if not for that time constraint.

Looking at my forum join date vs yours, I've been playing this game longer than you :P

I was in the 1.0 beta, and I played through the server close on and off. I even beat original Nael. So yeah, I supported 1.0 and I didn't have a good experience in XI. How bout that?

Tyla_Esmeraude: Remember when Yoshi P and the SE staff begged players to have double subscriptions? It sure wasnt the WoW player paying for it or the the white knights that are popping up now. I'm happy to find more people like you it makes me happy. I know im not alone on this forum with the people who just seem to like handouts and nerfs and think just because they have a subscription they are entitled to the same stuff as you.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

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This comment is pure gold.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Tyla_Esmeraude: Remember when Yoshi P and the SE staff begged players to have double subscriptions? It sure wasnt the WoW player paying for it or the the white knights that are popping up now. I'm happy to find more people like you it makes me happy. I know im not alone on this forum with the people who just seem to like handouts and nerfs and think just because they have a subscription they are entitled to the same stuff as you.

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The FFXI/FFXIV hybrid account was discontinued shortly after Yoshi-P took over. Begging, right?

So I have been paying 12 years worth of subscription to FFXI, how relevant is my opinion?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I was about 15 at the time, in school, didn't have time to spend 8-14 hours a day trying to get a party to do stuff.

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>_> That's a poor excuse. A lot of us were in school when we played XI and still had time for hours a day to get a pt and actually do things. I was 15 when I started XI too and in school, know what? I got 5 75s, was in multiple endgame ls, beat RoZ, CoP, ToAU, while still doing school and real life. I even had time to beat WotG while finishing school. So you're "I was in school" excuse doesn't really hold up well, considering a lot of people had school/work/families and still played for hours. It's more of "I couldn't manage time well and expected to get far with little effort in a short time".

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Considering at the time you couldn't level up without a party, it WAS the games fault.

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>_> So, you're blaming the game, a MMO, for making you do things with people, you know, part of the M's in MMO (multiplayer)? Really? lol

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I was in the 1.0 beta, and I played through the server close on and off. I even beat original Nael. So yeah, I supported 1.0 and I didn't have a good experience in XI. How bout that?

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Which is why I said most, not all players. Still, my point stands. FFXI was the most profitable game for SE, so I'm pretty sure part of the profits went into FFXIV's development. People need to start respecting the players who both supported FFXI and FFXIV 1.0.

I was 15 at the time too, when I started leveling. I also didn't have 14 hours a day but I always set a goal each day. I had like maybe 2 hours to play after doing homework and I managed to get past Dunes and Qufim. Is it really the game's fault now?

Yeah there were non conventional setups aka the jobs people didn't want in an optimal party lol. Like for example BSTs or SMNs. They always turned out in good and fun parties though, I never cared about conventional setups, I played whatever I wanted with whoever I wanted because I could. XD

Sorry you couldn't unlock SAM though, it was a really fun job to play. Wish you had stayed a little longer to be able to experience the whole game, it was pretty good. I understand if it was not your cup of tea though.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

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Sadly it's true. There is such a negative connotation to XI here and on Reddit. XI had flaws, lots of them, and even the most die hard XI players knew that. I don't think anyone from that community wants things like 2 hours waits for XP parties or 18 hour PW fights (which only like 1% of players even ever attempted). We want the depth of character progression and diversity of content that was available and we want some of the danger and unexpected situations XI brought about. Was it fun to die to an EP rabbit? No. Was it fun to narrowly survive to an EP rabbit? hell yes. There was a much much much greater sense of accomplishment in that game and that's what it's spirit was. Not just to see and experience the content but to triumph in adverse and dangerous situations, not throw your face at it over and over until you won. There is no gravity to anything in XIV you just spam it until you beat it.

I gave it two weeks, 1 level in 2 weeks in the Dunes seems like enough of a reason to give up. Maybe it was the server I was on, I don't know. I love how you act like anyone who didn't enjoy XI had time management issues, or didn't want to play with other people. I tried getting into an LS. Their "help" was go to the dunes, get people, level. They were all busy leveling their own jobs.

I didn't have any real life friends who played XI. Most people I talked to in that game weren't very helpful. My experience was different than yours, deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

>_> So, you're blaming the game, a MMO, for making you do things with people, you know, part of the M's in MMO (multiplayer)? Really? lol

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Such a sadly misunderstood concept these days.

My FC which was the evolution of the LS I started in 1.0 was largely made up of former XI players. We cleared all the content in ARR I'd say quite a bit ahead of the pack, why? We had a cohesive group that understood the value in playing together. I think most of the salty tears in XIV are the result of the game being pushed on console RPG players. They want to play an ever expanding DLC single player RPG and that's not what it's about at it's core. And it's also why the game feels so catered to casuals. If you didn't have friends in XI, yeah you were going to have a really bad time shouting for a party for hours. If you did, you would end up with 24 hour XP parties where by the end you would have 15 levels behind you and your friend would be pulling NMs out of delirium, it was a riot.

I might have had an advantage being in my early 20s when I started XI, maybe it was easier for me to make friends and understand their value. In any case, you can only blame the game for not making things possible, it's up to the player to make them probable.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

The community is based largely of casuals/semi-casuals that expect rewards/upgrades ASAP for doing content.

Tl;dr wouldn't work thanks to how the game has been which led to how the community is.

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That's so un true it's sad. If they had stuff in game that took 3 or so years to get {and for so called hard core nothing takes that long} they not be putting out game content every 2 or 3 months because if content was lasting over a year we not need such fast patches or new content. So instead of every 2 or 3 months we get content every 6 or 7 months and id be fine with that many casuals be. But the hard core are the ones always making a fuss over caps and no content

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Originally Posted by Kazama

If you didn't have friends in XI, yeah you were going to have a really bad time shouting for a party for hours. If you did, you would end up with 24 hour XP parties where by the end you would have 15 levels behind you and your friend would be pulling NMs out of delirium, it was a riot.

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Exactly. XI is so far the only mmo I know that actually had you socialize with people and it was great. I had plenty of friends, even some I still talk to today after 10 years. Other mmos? Nope, they force you to be solo :/ It's sad that it's come to this really. MMOs have gone from being social, making bonds with people, doing things, to MSORPG (massive singleplayer online rpg), where it feels like a single player game that happens to have other people in it, which is sad.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Exactly. XI is so far the only mmo I know that actually had you socialize with people and it was great. I had plenty of friends, even some I still talk to today after 10 years. Other mmos? Nope, they force you to be solo :/ It's sad that it's come to this really. MMOs have gone from being social, making bonds with people, doing things, to MSORPG (massive singleplayer online rpg), where it feels like a single player game that happens to have other people in it, which is sad.

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So you never played EQ or EQ2 or Lineage 2 (or evne lineage) or DAoC or Vanguard or any other game where the game was so actively hostile to the playerbase that you were forced to do everything together no matter what, even if it was to the detriment of player experience?

Cool, I guess.