Paladin need to be review.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Every time you use Shield Swipe you're using 16 TP per second. You regen 20 TP per second. You're literally gaining 4 TP per use.

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trouble is that shield swipe still is on the GCD and is mostly useful when one is trying to regen TP after spending it on main rotation. Most fights give enough break time that tp regens on it's own, so the skill remains underutilized.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Hmm, haven't experienced it so far on dungeons like Vault or Dusk Vigil though I won't say it's impossible since any spell can be interrupted. Timing your casts is part of the art, but I've been hit mid-cast and it still finished uninterrupted.

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I've been interrupted by Perpetual Ray 2 times in a row before. Timing isn't the magical solution to save you from RNG :(

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Yes, that the exact problem currently, and specially in A2 is a huge problem where DPS is very sensitive.

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Let WAR or DRK take all small f..kers while PLD sticks with bigger ones? just a tought as why put "inferior" AoE tanker to that when he could exel better when handling 2-3 enemies?

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Let WAR or DRK take all small f..kers while PLD sticks with bigger ones? just a tought as why put "inferior" AoE tanker to that when he could exel better when handling 2-3 enemies?

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This would work great if A2S had only 1 single pack of mob to handle, but no, there is more than one and you have no choice to have both tank handle it. The quick fix atm is stop play PLD for A2S, struggle with it or wait DPS get better gear to carry PLD in A2S.

Why dosn it matter? PLD is by far the best defensive tank in the game and has the worst offensive capabilities to compensate. If DPS can't step up during DPS checks, it's not the PLD's fault.

I have been a PLD since 1.0 and am super happy with what they have done with the class.

PLD is primarily a tank, DPS second. If you prefer to DPS perhaps PLD is not the right class for you.

For fights on A2savage, yes they do alot less DPS that a DRK or War but healers are alot happier when the big damage comes out to be healing a PLD.

I don't seem have MP or massive aggro issues holding the 5 pack mobs, Flash is not your only tool. There is shield bash that can just outright stun something for 9 sec until you can get a combo hit on him. Boosting Flash and Circle of scorn with Fight or Flight also requires alot less MP for the same effect.

There is always a way you just need to find it. Keep up the good work on PLD SE a super fun class to play!

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

Why dosn it matter? PLD is by far the best defensive tank

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Correction, as much i agree PLD is best defensive tank, is not "by far" the best, not even close to that. (Specially when it come to multi-target monster, PLD get pretty weak sauce offensive wise and defensive wise... the lack of leeching HP, lack of utility, lack of DPS make it the worse.) PLD flash and struggle in hope the pack will die soon, they are not good tank in that situation, nor a good DPS. (Unless you are talking about trash monster in dungeon, where FLASH actually work as intended and blind enemy.)

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

has the worst offensive capabilities to compensate.

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Only true when it come to AoE DMG vs a pack of monster, otherwise, PLD have a decent damage, do less dmg than WAR or DRK, but still remain powerful enough for the Def. trade in.

VS Pack of mob, Berserk + Bloodbath + Internal Release leech massive amount of HP, and Vengeance mitigate DMG + Cure you back as well.

Overpower = 120 Potency with Berserk = 180~ +5% if you in Delivrance = 190~ Potency, 5 Abandon stack = +10% Crit, paired with Internal Release = +20% Crit. You will crit more than 1/3 mob.

Decimate = 280 Potency with Berserk = ~420 potency AoE. I let you figure how much HP return you get with a pack of monster.

To compare with PLD: Flash that do 0 DMG, it leech 0 HP, it Blind nothing, it prevent 0 dmg, it prevent you do deal any kind of DMG for 2.5sec, i find this terrible at every point of view.

Regardless of content a tank is a tank, that's your job, not the dpses job, not the healers job. In that respect flash does what it is supposed to do, generate enmity.

I can't believe people are so petty to complain about flash not doing damage, it's disgusting.

Nothing is wrong with paladin, its just fine the way it is except for one thing.

Royal Authority having no Dot ability to it.

Its plain just a attack while rage of halone has the strength debuff and goring blade has the poison attack.

I would of though Royal Authority would of had something at the end but it doesn't its just not worth using for the increase of damage so I shelf it and stay with goring blade and rage of halone.

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

I can't believe people are so petty to complain about flash not doing damage, it's disgusting.

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I find a lot of people see the little "Fully resisted" text pop up and think that Flash is no longer generating emnity. Where as we both know it's the Blind status that they've become resisted to, some new tanks I suppose don't get it. Many people who has asked me about tanking has brought this up and asked what it's deal was.
Perhaps the same confusion has brought people believing that if it were to do damage, like Overpower does, it'll keep generating enmity.

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

Regardless of content a tank is a tank, that's your job, not the dpses job, not the healers job. In that respect flash does what it is supposed to do, generate enmity.

I can't believe people are so petty to complain about flash not doing damage, it's disgusting.

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It may function as an enmity builder but it is less beneficial because it does not provide damage. Warrior and Dark Knight contribute where a Paladin cannot contribute in these scenarios - it is a huge disadvantage. Paladin is not contributing to self-healing, or damage by having to utilize flash. People point to Paladin being "the best defensive" and it's not true in an AoE situation because we simply don't contribute to surviving (self-heal gains from AoE dps + Bloodbath), nor towards killing the threat more quickly - as the two other tanks do.

Paladin is less efficient to the point that it requires more damage from dps and more healing from the healers in an AoE setting.

If anything, I want to see LESS damage output and MORE mitigation on the PLD.
Let it become the wall it wants to be.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Nothing is wrong with paladin, its just fine the way it is except for one thing.

Royal Authority having no Dot ability to it.

Its plain just a attack while rage of halone has the strength debuff and goring blade has the poison attack.

I would of though Royal Authority would of had something at the end but it doesn't its just not worth using for the increase of damage so I shelf it and stay with goring blade and rage of halone.

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You should always be using Royal Authority if you have an enmity lead and Goring Blade is up unless you desperately need the STR debuff from Halone and its about to fall off. In a worst case scenario you should use Royal Authority at least every third combo.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Nothing is wrong with paladin, its just fine the way it is except for one thing.

Royal Authority having no Dot ability to it.

Its plain just a attack while rage of halone has the strength debuff and goring blade has the poison attack.

I would of though Royal Authority would of had something at the end but it doesn't its just not worth using for the increase of damage so I shelf it and stay with goring blade and rage of halone.

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Lol... what?

Anyways, I'm fine with anything to help my favorite class. I am sure SE can do something to maintain the balance while placating all the complainers. I'm fine either way honestly, since I play all the tanks for versatility purposes for Savage. For anything casual, I just use whatever tank I fancy at the time, and when stuff gets serious, it's as simple as strapping on a new weapon and I'm good to go. I'm a little pissed about the job restrictions to the Eso gear, but the Gordian armor isn't a huge loss, and the Eso trinkets and the Belt are still shared. Plus, with people clearing Savage in 180 gear, it's obviously more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If anything, I want to see LESS damage output and MORE mitigation on the PLD.
Let it become the wall it wants to be.

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More damage is more mitigation. The faster packs of monsters die the less damage you take.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Perhaps the same confusion has brought people believing that if it were to do damage, like Overpower does, it'll keep generating enmity.

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I never said PLD had an enmity generation issue, they have 0 DPS while they generate they enmity, they leech 0 HP while generating they enmity, they don't get extra protection using flash as it was intended from beginning.

and keep in mind when i say FLASH do 0 DMG, the true story is even worse, because it prevent you do do any DMG for 2.5 sec. On multi target, PLD turn into a disco Flash ball Rarw!! with a bunch of monster wearing they sun glass laughing at you.

Not sure if this has been sugested, didn't read the whole thread. What if instead of giving flash a dot, Paladin was given a new trait past 50 to augment flash with a vulnerability status effect increasing damage taken by a small amount 1-5%.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

It may function as an enmity builder but it is less beneficial because it does not provide damage. Warrior and Dark Knight contribute where a Paladin cannot contribute in these scenarios - it is a huge disadvantage. Paladin is not contributing to self-healing, or damage by having to utilize flash. People point to Paladin being "the best defensive" and it's not true in an AoE situation because we simply don't contribute to surviving (self-heal gains from AoE dps + Bloodbath), nor towards killing the threat more quickly - as the two other tanks do.

Paladin is less efficient to the point that it requires more damage from dps and more healing from the healers in an AoE setting.

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Why does everything have to provide damage these days? This was never an issue pre HW content and is still not an issue but with everyone complaining about these "strict" dps requirements everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and trying to nitpick jobs in every way they can.

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

Why does everything have to provide damage these days? This was never an issue pre HW content and is still not an issue but with everyone complaining about these "strict" dps requirements everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and trying to nitpick jobs in every way they can.

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Because damage is FFXIV's meta game.

Paladin:
Do you meet the enmity requirement? Yes - Good
Do you meet the eHP requirement? Yes - Good
Do you bring significant additional damage? No - Bad

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Originally Posted by Dhex

More damage is more mitigation. The faster packs of monsters die the less damage you take.

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Yes, absolutely.
But the idea of PLD is either damage output in Sword Oath or wall of defence in Shield Oath.
I feel the Shield Oath bit is somewhat lacking, personally.

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Originally Posted by Peekachu33

I think that you and others are still completely missing the obvious: this content is like, what, 2.5 weeks old? We should not be basing the median for clearing content on people who are exceptionally dedicated to the game.

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I'm just saying why they're focused on parses.

I personally don't care either way.

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

Why does everything have to provide damage these days? This was never an issue pre HW content and is still not an issue but with everyone complaining about these "strict" dps requirements everyone is jumping on the bandwagon and trying to nitpick jobs in every way they can.

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You can't ask DEV to give Paladin more defensive CD to deal with multi-target, that would be mega exploited vs a single encounter. The problem is all about flash being resisted, offering 0 protection/returning 0 HP, dealing 0 dmg, preventing paladin to deal dmg for 2.5 sec. To me, it be a quick FIX to add dmg to flash, and it would not make Paladin a superior DPS compare to WAR or DRK. That would just allow PLD to contribute in the fight and do his main job, Tank Monster and stay alive.

Pre-HW, powerful Muti-Target RAID was not born yet, and AoE DMG / HP return was not needed to stay alive.

Single target resisting Flash totally make sense, and don't disadvantage PLD at all. DRK and WAR are not mega advantaged on single target, as they only leech HP from 1 monster while doing they AoE.

A2S is the first true Multi-Target Raid we ever got, and is pretty fun/challenging if you ask me, but is very unsuited for PLD class, they become by far inferior defensive and offensive wise compare to other 2 tank class.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

You can't ask DEV to give Paladin more defensive CD to deal with multi-target, that would be mega exploited vs a single encounter. The problem is all about flash being resisted, offering 0 protection/returning 0 HP, dealing 0 dmg, preventing paladin to deal dmg for 2.5 sec. To me, it be a quick FIX to add dmg to flash, and it would not make Paladin a superior DPS compare to WAR or DRK. That would just allow PLD to contribute in the fight and do his main job, Tank Monster and stay alive.

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The solution to Flash using it's utility is, of course, removing immunity to Blind, which is what the problem is to begin with. Mobs and bosses immune to CC and detrimental effects biting us in the butt.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

I never said PLD had an enmity generation issue, they have 0 DPS while they generate they enmity, they leech 0 HP while generating they enmity, they don't get extra protection using flash as it was intended from beginning.

and keep in mind when i say FLASH do 0 DMG, the true story is even worse, because it prevent you do do any DMG for 2.5 sec. On multi target, PLD turn into a disco Flash ball Rarw!! with a bunch of monster wearing they sun glass laughing at you.

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While I agree that our AOE damage output needs some work, I really can't say that it should be in the form of changing Flash. The result of that would feel entirely too much like DRK's two AOE enmity skills. I also can't say that having similar AOE damage capabilities with Warriors and Dark Knights is exactly balancing. Where I COULD see a change is in Shield Swipe, by changing it to a 90 degree frontal cone for about 5 yalms with damage similar to Overpower while still on its low TP cost. This keeps the skill less powerful than the other two tanks AOE damage skills (Warrior has both Overpower and Steel Cyclone, Dark Knight has Unleash and Abyssal Drain), and restricts it behind procing on a shield block, as well as maintains the enmity generation the skill currently does, but spreads it with lower damage than it currently does across a wider area. With enough enemies, the damage will be higher than what it currently can do, but with fewer enemies, it is a little more than half of its current damage. Maintaining the lower TP cost still retains its use as a way to recover TP, and it still remains a better way to recover TP over Flash because it still does damage. However, Flash maintains its use in AOE enmity situations to do RELIABLE AOE enmity, and Shield Swipe can also ease the MP drain in these situations, by allowing you to make use of its proc in place of a Flash. Further, the name "Shield Swipe" makes more sense as a frontal cleave, and its current animation even has a frontal cleaving motion with a slight jump with your sword. It would make more sense to add a frontal cleaving holy magical animation to it, and it would maintain with the theme of the Paladin as a Holy Tank. Further, our job needs more skills in line with their theme.

If not Shield Swipe, then Royal Authority's animation ALSO seems to be misleading. You wind up and jump spin around with your blade, almost as if it was suppose to be a player centered damage AOE, but they changed their mind for a single target higher potency skill.

I wouldn't play Dark if Paladin's Flash did DMG. No reason to.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

I COULD see a change is in Shield Swipe, by changing it to a 90 degree frontal cone for about 5 yalms with damage similar to Overpower while still on its low TP cost. This keeps the skill less powerful than the other two tanks AOE damage skills (Warrior has both Overpower and Steel Cyclone, Dark Knight has Unleash and Abyssal Drain), and restricts it behind procing on a shield block, as well as maintains the enmity generation the skill currently does, but spreads it with lower damage than it currently does across a wider area. With enough enemies, the damage will be higher than what it currently can do, but with fewer enemies, it is a little more than half of its current damage.

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Yes i love that idea, it could work the exact same way as it work atm, if your shield block, you can use it and is a cone attack, mean the more monster you have, the more chance to block and deal DMG. Paired with Bulwark + Bloodbath, it would be very interesting.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

then Royal Authority's animation ALSO seems to be misleading. You wind up and jump spin around with your blade, almost as if it was suppose to be a player centered damage AOE, but they changed their mind for a single target higher potency skill.

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That be too powerful =D, i also love too much Royal Authority how it is atm, That combo make PLD Awesome OT =D high dps with very low chance of snapping enmity. I be sad if they remove it or change it.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

-snip-

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So just because one piece of content doesn't suit a job it has to be changed.

Because heaven forbid you can't get through trash fast enough.

@Dhex Which is a sad sad meta, it's already bad enough that most players these days go "ignore mechanics, ignore adds, just dps"

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

So just because one piece of content doesn't suit a job it has to be changed.

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True if is the only one with multi-target and all next raid be all boring single boss to kill. Don't you think it be better to fix PLD issue and make more content with multi-target encounter?

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

@Dhex Which is a sad sad meta, it's already bad enough that most players these days go "ignore mechanics, ignore adds, just dps"

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Which is why people can't clear BIS Ex. And are complaining not enough dps :P Can't just ignore mechanics in this game when majority of them will wipe your raid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqaNUnCwnxY

this may remember all the strength of paladins don't come from violence

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

@Dhex Which is a sad sad meta

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It is but the instant you start talking about more dynamic stats, skill trees, or anything that would change the meta of FFXIV this forum literally shits it's pants and starts spouting about illusion of choice and having PTSD about whatever older generation MMO they played and force the game into the same little box it already lives in.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Yes i love that idea, it could work the exact same way as it work atm, if your shield block, you can use it and is a cone attack, mean the more monster you have, the more chance to block and deal DMG. Paired with Bulwark + Bloodbath, it would be very interesting.



That be too powerful =D, i also love too much Royal Authority how it is atm, That combo make PLD Awesome OT =D high dps with very low chance of snapping enmity. I be sad if they remove it or change it.

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My thoughts exactly! You are actually one of the few people I have met that hasn't just suggested massive changes that would turn the class into some bully tank that muscles out the others.

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Originally Posted by Yhoiryo

So just because one piece of content doesn't suit a job it has to be changed.


Because heaven forbid you can't get through trash fast enough.

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Yeah, because, you know, bosses NEVER have adds ever, riiigggghht?

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

True if is the only one with multi-target and all next raid be all boring single boss to kill. Don't you think it be better to fix PLD issue and make more content with multi-target encounter?

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I don't have many issues with A2, but the change I suggested would be helpful for us. That being said, I do think there are some problems with the sustainability of the AOE enmity generation on Warriors. I am not saying that they can't put out enough AOE enmity, I am just saying that the resource consumption of putting out enough can be quickly crippling when in a fight that has no breaks for TP recovery. Overpower provides no Wrath, but you don't do any AOE enmity except for Flash without Overpower or full wrath stacks, and the phases, if pushed appropriately fast, come while Infuriate is on CD. I can just barely pull A2 off with my Warrior, but I much prefer my Paladin for this fight.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

My thoughts exactly! You are actually one of the few people I have met that hasn't just suggested massive changes that would turn the class into some bully tank that muscles out the others.

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Bully Tank would be a real sad day... WAR is already close to that sentence and it make the game feel a bit wrong, but in other hand you have to be a very skilled to reach that point on WAR, not like everyone can push WAR to that limit (Not yet at least) I am happy of the change they did on WAR, is actually a real Tank now (if play right)

Paladin is well balanced too, by time is not multi-target, they don't even need to make a huge fix, but ya, something have to be done.

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Originally Posted by Peekachu33

At an average level of i210 the DPS contribution from a PLD vs. similarly geared DPS will be negligible to laughable. Your I210 DPS have some serious issues if they're relying on your leet PLD DPS to push the needle. I'm not sure what your point is. Flash is a utility and aoe hate generator. That's how the skill was designed.

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I think this is a bit irrelevant to the OP's point.

1.) Noone is i210 right now. It'd be strange for the OP to be complaining about future events that have yet to happen or be experienced.
2.) Why are you comparing the DPS of a PLD to DPS roles? Compare them to the other tanks.

If my Static were having DPS problems, a WAR and a DRK will bring more DPS and they're likely to take them instead. Telling a PLD bringing group to just wait for higher ilevels isn't really an answer, you might as well tell them to go take a vacation after capping each week.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Snip.

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It's completely relevant. It would help if you followed that chain of replies to see what, exactly, I had responded to. Anyway, no one is actually geared to the level of the content. Alex Savage is supposed to last for at least 3 months, as well as be tackled with help from esoterics gear. Just like Rav Ex began to become trivial at i180+ for most players, so too will this content be easier as ilvls increase. I got my clear and all my farming down before even Alex normal, and it was a chore compared to if I'd waited another week. Sometimes waiting isn't so bad, you know. All the whining in the world about the "terrible DPS" of tanks and players in general, of which we've seen several threads each week, stems from this hyperbolic distortion of reality that everything can and should be accomplished within days of release.

Topics discussed here and in other threads apply to some 0.01% of the community that is dead-set on clearing the hardest content as quickly as possible. Savage is supposed to be gated, even for those folks. I bet you'll see better progress now that we're in week three and everyone can actually afford an esoterics weapon. Cause again, that's what the content is balanced toward.

As a pld in savage, we're weak. The other tanks quite simply bring more than us to the party.
We have terrible maintanking dps and aoe dps, being more offensive is needed from tanks in savage floor 1-4.

There are many small improvements that could be done to help, such as allowing us to swap shield oath and sword oath offgcd and making it so they don't break combos. You could improve shield swipe to aoe cone, or offgcd. You could reduce the damage loss on shield oath. Make bosses that have decently strong auto attacks so tanks don't want to swap into dps stance. There is probably lots more that could be done aswell.

Defense wise the other tanks keep up with pld or beat it in some situations all while doing far more dps, meaning plds are in a very bad position progression wise.

Right. As someone who actually tanks in Savage Alexander, I can tell you for a FACT paladin mitigation is worlds ahead of warriors. Paladin also are near required for A2 (And really 3 if you want to be safe.) You're upset paladin can't parse like warrior, but really that just shows your fundamental lack of understanding in the job.




Warriors mitigate as well as, or better than paladins.. lol thank you, I needed a morning laugh.

Again, people attempting to assess any job based on content designed for 10+ average item levels from where most people are now cannot and should not be taken with great weight. Look at my Lodestone profile if you want, my point stands all the same. People are freezing out Astrologians and other jobs based on this nonsense and it needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Again, people attempting to assess any job based on content designed for 10+ average item levels from where most people are now cannot and should not be taken with great weight. Look at my Lodestone profile if you want, my point stands all the same. People are freezing out Astrologians and other jobs based on this nonsense and it needs to stop.

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... My group has cleared A1 and 2 and almost A3 with an astrologian... Perhaps you should look more to yourself and try less to blame the class. Eva Eva if you want to look her up. She has no other healers leveled.
And how DARE we use content to judge how classes preform in content! We should use anecdotal evidence from people who have never once ventured into the kind of content that requires min/maxing!

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

... My group has cleared A1 and 2 and almost A3 with an astrologian... Perhaps you should look more to yourself and try less to blame the class. Eva Eva if you want to look her up. She has no other healers leveled.

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As someone who has levelled up all 3 healers and play them all regularly, I'll just sum up the issues AST has in two sentences.

It's not AST vs content.
It's AST vs WHM/SCH.