FC Chest just gets raded, and GMs can do nothing.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Actions taken for the sole purpose of scamming, cheating, or stealing need repercussions. We have all the information logged, we have GM's, and we have people committing offenses for the sole purpose of causing grief. There's no reason why such situations should not at least be investigated at a basic level to deter people from trying to perform the same actions in the future.

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Ok, who got scammed here? This has nothing to do with this topic...

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Scenario

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Here's a scenario for you:

A couple of people decide they don't like another player and want to get him banned and hear he needs some things, notably airship parts for his actual guild, so one of them tosses them a private message on Reddit. "Hey, we have those in our FC chest, send a tell to _____ asking to be let in for a bit and you can grab them. We'll set permissions so members can grab items for a little while." The guy believes them because, hey, you can't trade airship parts normally and some people are pretty helpful, so it isn't out of the realm of possibility you might be offered things.

They then wait until he 'steals' these items and send a report to a GM about the 'thief'.

True or not, what does the GM do? Whose word does he take? The 'thief's'? Does he then punish the guild members for trying to get someone banned? Everyone involved?

Or maybe the thief was real life friends with another officer who decided it wouldn't be a big deal to give him those things to help his guild but didn't tell anyone else about it.

When the guy takes these things, understandably, other guild members are upset and contact a GM who contacts the 'thief'. He tells the GM about this.

Again, what does the GM do? Believe the thief? Ban him? Ban the officer?

Or does he just explain that GMs can't get involved in things where there's not solid proof that there was a deal in place that was broken in chat logs.

It's a shame what happened, but like others have said, it's shared items so it's technically not stealing. This happened to my FC once and after that they restricted FC chest access to raiders and above. After some leadership changes chest access was given to "Members" and our entry rank can't access it. Recently with company airships we've decided to dedicate a page to FC crafting materials and airship parts and lock it to our Officer, General, and leader ranks. Just make a dedicated page for rarer materials and such and lock it to higher ranks. There isn't really much you can do to get what was stolen back.

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Originally Posted by joshdavis271

And again taking "SHARED ASSETS" IREPEAT "SHARED ASSETS"!!! is not stealing.

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Right, however in the realm of "Morality" IREPEAT "Morality"!!! taking or destroying everything an FC owns just before leaving can be EASILY punishable in the eyes of a GM that is allowed to care. "Shared assets" is such a silly scapegoat. However, like I said before, a GM won't always be able to do something. And the victim may not get the result he wanted. But at least he is heard and given a chance.

Who is to judge what is moral and not immoral? Such wide range of views there.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Right, however in the realm of "Morality" IREPEAT "Morality"!!! taking or destroying everything an FC owns just before leaving can be EASILY punishable in the eyes of a GM that is allowed to care. "Shared assets" is such a silly scapegoat. However, like I said before, a GM won't always be able to do something. And the victim may not get the result he wanted. But at least he is heard and given a chance.

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Why do you think that they want to care? This is a video game, if you really expect people to be moral on a video game then you my friend are in for quite an awakening. All SE cares about is getting that monthly fee from you, nothing more, nothing less.

Whatever you say chief, Since we cannot be held responsible for our own free company, I think FCs should be reduced to that of Linkshells since you cannot comprehend permissions... its to make things simpler for you folk.

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Originally Posted by joshdavis271

Whatever you say chief, Since we cannot be held responsible for our own free company, I think FCs should be reduced to that of Linkshells since you cannot comprehend permissions... its to make things simpler for you folk.

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There's no need to devolve into rudementary banter. I've never had a problem with permissions. There's nothing wrong with permissions. And indeed people need to pay more attention to the permissions they give to members; especially those who are new. I've already said many times "you folk" are correct about this. However, problems CLEARLY arise. There's no reason why GM's cannot be given the privileges to investigate some of the more ridiculously extreme cases of Free Company destruction.

Stop fighting it chief, you know you'd like to see justice every now and again.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

There's no need to devolve into rudementary banter. I've never had a problem with permissions. There's nothing wrong with permissions. And indeed people need to pay more attention to the permissions they give to members; especially those who are new. I've already said many times "you folk" are correct about this. However, problems CLEARLY arise. There's no reason why GM's cannot be given the privileges to investigate some of the more ridiculously extreme cases of Free Company destruction.

Stop fighting it chief, you know you'd like to see justice every now and again.

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Well justice would be served if publicly outed, the community will handle it accordingly, if this person is a repeat offender, he wont be able to join another free company for long.

It's ironic that your form of justice breaks the Terms of Service Agreement whereas Stealing from FC's does not.

Well its the best way to handle pests.

Think of it this way:

If the GMs took action against in-game theft, an FC could scam SE and the game in general. They could essentially fake a "robbery" in order to get their "stolen" goods back from SE, and then by doing a bit of laundering, they could get the original "stolen" goods... or at least gil equivalent to their value... back from the "thief", who was working for them all along.

Your FC leader learned the first lesson of being a guild leader... never, ever give full access to items to new members. Use one tab for stuff you don't mind losing and put the expensive stuff in tabs they can't access.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Snip

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I can understand, maybe, if a free company was just formed. I cannot understand a free company that was formed in 2013, and did not have its permissions in order.. and only had 3 ranks at that.

Let me get this straight. A member of your fc

1) took something out the fc bank and had permission to do so, and

2) quit the fc.

As far as I know neither of those are against the rules. This is a confusing topic. :confused:

My FC has various ranks with various permissions; ie: airship rank has withdraw privs for first three tabs and crystals, but not gil or the fourth tab. My rank, gardener, has withdraw in first two, deposit in first two(airship clutters it and I need to be able to shift around crafting mats so I can deposit krakka roots that I grow for our pretty birdies) and view only in last. I can use the stable and garden, but no other housing permissions outside buying a room.

Leader made me a special rank so I could keep our birds trained.. Garden sitting empty was sad.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

All right. You guys win ¯\_( ツ )_/¯

Clearly its the consensus that immoral thieves should be allowed to get away with anything they want when someone makes a mistake. GM's have no right getting involved. Run wild and be free FC chest raiders; it's your time to shine!

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Use the tools you are given simple. I'm glad it happened and I'm lmao.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

And I'm saying it should change. Like FFXI, this type of behavior could be banned.

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Just make sure to have a chat agreement at hand

I like how pretty much no-one is showing support for the OP. I also can't wait for you all to invite a "friend"/"acquaintance" or even a plumber over to your house/flat/apartment and then they steal shit from you. Then we can all say "should have tied everything down and not let them have access to all the rooms in your abode" and "you only have yourself to blame".

OP, I know you can't name names on the forums, but I'd be interested in knowing who this person was given we share the same server. I'll be home from work around 3pm EST (7 hours from now roughly) if you're on and feel like looking me up.

My FC is pretty strict on access to the chest so they wouldn't get anything, but I'd still like to know who it is so that they can be avoided.

Guess that means I can start ripping people off on alts and get away with it, good to know they encourage stealing.

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Originally Posted by Darra

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xept for the simple difference that an FC chest contains shared resources/stuff for the ppl in the FC so if you have it set so that any1 can get stuff then its their right to get anything they want at whatever quantity be old or new memebrs

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Guess that means I can start ripping people off on alts and get away with it, good to know they encourage stealing.

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If you manage to land in an FC that has FC Chest controls like OPs, go ahead. You're allowed to, but it doesn't make you less of an arsehat.

If you require ANY form of chat that is able to prove you have done something you did not promise to do, get ready to get rekt.

Getting scammed on an MMO is 95-99% of the time the fault of the person who got scammed. Don't make trades unless you're sure to get what you want in that very trade, and if you take that risk you take it full well knowing you may get scammed. There's a lot of talk of oh people who act immorally should be punished and so on but the fact remains you wouldn't hang out in a dark alley in a bad area because you should be able to be anywhere without worrying. In the case of OP his FC leader failed to set proper permissions and while obviously not a classy thing to do said person had every right allowed by the FC to take what he would from the FC chest. People compared this situation to letting someone in for a barbecue or letting a plumber in or something but that's a completely inaccurate analogy. Since you all like real life analogies how about this:

You live with a bunch of friends who all chipped in for a pizza. That same day you allow another person to move in with you as another roommate and tell them to make themselves at home. They in the middle of the night eat the leftovers of the pizza which you indirectly gave them full permission to do so. The next day they decide that this living arrangement won't work out and leave (assuming no contracts were signed or anything). In this case you can't call the police and have the person arrested for theft for eating the pizza (bound because you cant really sell someone a half eaten pizza) that you essentially gave them access to.

It falls within the FC's responsibility to make sure permissions are set properly and to not keep anything valuable where those you don't trust completely can get it. There have been cases where veteran players have been promoted to a rank that allowed them to take things from the storage but even then they've earned that right being veteran players and earning such a promotion. If you truly don't want to have things taken without your consent don't allow people the ability to take things without your consent. It sucks that you feel you got ripped off but he was in his rights given to him by your FC rank settings and hopefully this will be a lesson to keep a tighter grip on such things in the future.

Op, I am really sorry this happened to you. Have a long talk with your fc leader and have him lock down everything. Also ask him to make the ability to promote fc leader only. A person with the ability to promote can actually self promote to any rank to gain access to things they want to steal.

Honestly, its poor programming on SE's part.

The entire FC system is a clusterfrack of basic - VERY BASIC - options that barely work like they should.

Ranks?

Okay so I make rank 1 2 3 4 5, in other games you'd think Rank 3 is under Rank 2.
But nope. In FFXIV, Rank 3 is EQUAL to rank 2.

If Rank 3 has Promotion access he can promote people all the way to rank 2.
If Rank 2 has access to FC Chest and Gil but Rank 3 doesn't, Rank 3 can get it by promoting himself to rank 2, empty the vault and leave.

This kind of shit is NOT the fault of anyone, but the thief. However, it is preventable to a point. We have 2 tabs in the chest that are only accessible by the highest ranked members of our fc. The first tab is available to all members and everything in it is useful, but expendable. Every rank has settings that need to be adjusted, it can get tedious, but if you don't use too many ranks it isn't a problem.

Have you all been afflicted by the Burden curse yet? Tell me your misfortunes so I can laugh at you, tell you life is unfair so deal with it and how I really don't care.

Your chest is your own responsibility and of your co leader or leaders
you need to manage the rankings a bit better like gaining a bit of trust first giving them lil privilages like only 1 tab of the chest that has not somethign thats really expensive etc but still usefull for some

and the other tabs are locked or can only be viewed
the longer he is in the FC the more chance he gets in ranking up and get privilages to gain acces to other tabs of the chest

if you just let anyone join and have free acces to the chest than these things are bound to be happen

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Everyone is blaming the FC Leader for not setting the correct permissions. But how is this any different than if he DID set permissions? He gets to know someone over the course of two years, promotes them to an Officer, and THEN everything is stolen from that newly promoted Officer (or the Officer gives Chest permissions to the real thief.) The GM will just say the same thing "You gave them permissions there's nothing we can do."

That's NOT how it should be. This is the first MMO I've played where such behavior is ignored and unpunished. It all feels so robotic.

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Guild Wars. Yes this is common. You're responsible for your FC looting, you're old enough to shave almost and you do not need your hand held to know to look both ways before you cross the road.

FC drama can and do happen. Just because you knew that person (maybe even personally) for a very long time and gave them permission .... once drama happens ___ people will steal everything they're capable of getting.

I suppose it's better to not allow members chest access

fix the permissions or tell your leader to, an issue? no its your guild leaders fault, not square enix's

While there is something to be said for being careful, protecting yourself, and not putting yourself in compromising positions, I do not agree with what many have said that this is the OP's fault. One of the things I hate about this world is that victims seem to get blamed more than the perpetrators. Stealing is stealing, regardless of whether the OP (or their FC leader) had a lapse in judgment. Nobody can be 100% on their guard 100% of the time.

I think I can relate to how you feel, OP. I, too, have had things stolen from me, in-game and IRL. I think it sucks, I wish we didn't live in the kind of world where people hurt each other, and I wish when someone did hurt us that others would refrain from deepening the hurt by blaming us.

I work in restorative justice and one of the things I've observed is that offenders tend not to understand the harm they are causing someone else; they don't connect with the victim or the society in which they live. When someone is made to understand the effect their actions have on others, it can be really transformative, but unfortunately this rarely happens.

I'm sorry this happened to you, OP, and I'm sorry the GMs have done nothing about it. Try to spread the word within your FC and the community in general, warning them about this sort of thing. Let others know about the perpetrator in particular (social sanctions can be a powerful behavior changer). Above all, don't listen to those who blame you for this. It is 100% the thief's fault. All you did is trust someone and I think it's nice to be generous to others (strangers or not). I use the word "generous" in a situation like this because you are assuming someone isn't a douchebag. I don't think there's anything wrong with that (99% of the time you'll probably be right). Just remember to watch out for that small percentage of people who are douchebags; they'll ruin things for decent people if given half a chance.

In my FC, I made a conscious choice to trust people, even knowing that some would probably steal from us. I let all members use the chest but I suggested that they be careful because all members had access. This worked really well for over a year, but as the FC grew more and more valuables ended up in the chest eventually we had someone steal from us. Even this did not deter me at first. Members were warned again to be careful. Some time went by. Then it happened again. Finally, I changed settings so new members couldn't access the chest. However, after even more time went by, I didn't like having to make the distinction between "new" and "veteran" members (and some veteran members proved to be no more trustworthy). So now the FC chest is just for my partner and I, although we will store and retrieve items for members if they wish. And as the saying goes: "This is why we cannot have nice things."

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

fix the permissions or tell your leader to, an issue? no its your guild leaders fault, not square enix's

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It's the thief's fault, actually. And even though SE is not to blame for the theft, they have the tools to restore the stolen items and punish the thief. A GM can check FC chest logs, see exactly what was taken, they can track down the person who did it, and investigate some things to confirm the OP's story (like the join date/time of that member, when they accessed the chest, and when they left). They could also ask questions of the involved parties.

Now I'm not saying that this is feasible for SE considering the number of players who play and the amount of complaints that must come in about all sorts of things. However, stealing is a form of griefing and the player who stole will probably do it again. Therefore, SE should think about the consequences of NOT investigating incidents like this; the play experience of many people could be adversely affected by the person who stole. I will say that my GM interactions have been more positive than the OP's and I DO think GMs usually do what they can.

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Originally Posted by Darra

I like how pretty much no-one is showing support for the OP. I also can't wait for you all to invite a "friend"/"acquaintance" or even a plumber over to your house/flat/apartment and then they steal shit from you. Then we can all say "should have tied everything down and not let them have access to all the rooms in your abode" and "you only have yourself to blame".

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If you let a plumber do his job while the house is empty, you are truly, incomprehensibly an idiot and you really are asking for it. Stop playing the victim and take some responsibility.

SE has already done something about it from the beginning. They gave the FC leader the power to decide who has access and who has not.

And sure, a trusted member may very well be the one who takes from your FC. But hey, that's part of the game. That's how the game works. The game allows you to lock everyone out or allow everyone access or give a few access. If you can't trust people because of this, then maybe this portion of the game just isn't for you. But again, that's simply how the game works.

Its the thief's fault, but Square Enix has given your FC the tools to prevent these type of things. I am not blaming you, but the FC leader should have known that these type of things do happen alot in mmorpg. That is why FC leaders only give their officers and some trustworthy players the ability to access the FC chest. Morally what this player did was wrong, but nobody told him to not take stuff inside, you guys even gave him permission to take whatever he/she wants from the chest.

I hope you get your stuff back and I hope your FC leader learns something from this experience.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

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You cannot sit there and say the FC leader had absolutely nothing to do with this. SE gave the FC leader the tools to lock people out for a reason. It was in the FC leaders rights to give everyone access to everything if he wanted. I think this has been said before, but the chest is considered a shared free company resource. He had every right to do it. Now none of us who were on the other side of the fence said if this was morally correct or not.

Also as someone else pointed out, you cannot expect to hold square responsible for this because, what if their FC leader was involved in this? We don't know if another member was involved in this. You go to square with one story and they get another story from the thief.. who are they supposed to believe? Again, as I said before square should not play a role in this at all. They could end up punishing the wrong person.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

This is a confusing topic. :confused:

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I'd have to agree. It's very interesting seeing the wide variety of opinions on this topic.

In conclusion, it was a lesson learned for those that should have known better, and the member and chest options have been reset to my specifications. The looter really didn't make off with much that wasn't bound to the FC, or sells that well at all (about 30 deep colored crystals, so no big loss). Funny thing is, instead of taking any of the glamour prisms, or any of the materials that he could have sold, he takes the kidragora. Perhaps he ran out of inventory space, since he was on a new character. I suppose we'll never know. Life goes on.

Oh and thanks to everyone for the feedback. :)

I look forward to future eve online style power plays.

This is one of those times that you learn about trust and how no one deserves it. Take this lesson to heart, don't give invite privileges to FC members who aren't trustworthy and keep your vault locked from new players.