Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

I vote Neptune to replace Yoshi-P. Dead serious.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I know of no game that allows full regen in combat, except when under the effects of some spells or special skills.

That said, every OTHER game (except FFXI) has a way to regen your HP and MP quickly when out of combat or between monsters.

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/sit /tenchar

by the way does incurring enmity refer to having any enmity or flashing red enmity?

If it refers to having flashing red enmity, then it will work fine.

Is my wall of text on the previous page that intimidating? It answers a number of your questions and clears up common misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Is my wall of text on the previous page that intimidating? It answers a number of your questions and clears up common misunderstandings.

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My page was unrefreshed from earlier, no need to take such a boisterous stance.

I feel Refresh coming later out of that

Lol another Neptune post. I guess it's about that time again, completely blowing things out of proportion. We'd only be sending the MMO genre back if we used the same tired bullshit every other MMO does which is just MP regen = more potions. Why bother creating an MP regen mechanic when you can just drink potions?! I mean seriously, people wanted casting in passive mode. The dev team is giving it to them but balancing it. Cry more, learn to adapt or quit please.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Can I just ask was it such a big crime to partially regen while doing another task in this game like travelling, closing the distance to another enemy, or trying to get back some MP during a boss fight while doing nothing but casting cure 2?

Did we have to rewind the clock on all the progress this genre has made since it was nothing but a timesink designed to keep people paying a monthly fee as long as possible?

Is it really necessary for me to stop everything, stand perfectly still, and do nothing for 30 seconds to a minute every 3 or 4 fights while soloing?

Also I'm aware that there is another thread with somebody who thinks it's a great idea to rewind the clock back to 2002 and add an animation to the stated change, but I don't support that topic.

Why should we stand still in this game when we can go play another game that will regen us to full after standing still for 20 seconds every 10 minutes or so?

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fully agree, this is so silly. Imagine a roaming skill point party: all the casters will be standing around and lagging behind after each battle - this will just look ridiculous. And its such an unnecessary constraint. This is effectively binding us between battles. You know devs, it is possible to add a fraction of the mana regen while we are running- have you guys played other games before? You know you can always adjust regen rates later when new stuff comes out, right? Who thinks up this shit?

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Is my wall of text on the previous page that intimidating? It answers a number of your questions and clears up common misunderstandings.

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you have an interesting take, that some others have had, but really we wont know till oct 4th, because even in your explanation, when they use inccuring enmity in other cases, it is something that you can no longer do until you have no agro. You want it to be passive regen in battle but really i dont think it will be the case. The type of regen you are talking about already exists, and wouldnt need to be re written. Right now when putting away your weapon you will see the type of behavior you are talking about.

It is possible you are right, but it is just as likely you are wrong. we ll see soon.


Regardless static movement mp regen is crap, and unecessary, the amount you get when moving is already low enough. I really hope the regen rates are improved drastically. I really really dont want to go back to ffxi rest system.

TY for bringing up the old posts Noctis. I had thought they used "incurring" before in previous update notes to mean that you are on an enemy's hate list, so I think you are probably right about the MP recovery changes.

I really had no issue either way if the MP recovery rate increased quickly enough while standing still between battles.

Like was brought up before, a strict MP recovery system would help out alchemists once they get revamped and probably get more tiers of ethers.

What i find funny is that the mp you get while walking is so little it rly make a difference....

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Originally Posted by Estellios

TY for bringing up the old posts Noctis. I had thought they used "incurring" before in previous update notes to mean that you are on an enemy's hate list, so I think you are probably right about the MP recovery changes.

I really had no issue either way if the MP recovery rate increased quickly enough.

Like was brought up before, a strict MP recovery system would help out alchemists once they get revamped and probably get more tiers of ethers.

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i would hope they wouldnt be simple ether machines. Annnnd no one really wants ether to be a way of life, unless its very cheap, building regular leveling mechanics with ethers in mind is a bad idea.

ANNNNDD lets not forget that using items is currently not easily achieved. Its only from the menu on the bottom that you can use it, maybe macros, but that doesnt tell you how many you have left. Before they build the game to have quick item use, they probably need to re UI item use overal

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Originally Posted by Firon

What i find funny is that the mp you get while walking is so little it rly make a difference....

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makes a difference for when you have to run a decent distance, and when your doing fairly easy stuff. Its small but it adds up, especially for melee who only use mp once in awhile. Stopping already sucks, having to stop moving more therefor sucks more.

The new rate at which you regenerate HP/MP when standing still is the most significant factor here. Something we'll know only after the patch.

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Originally Posted by Physic

i would hope they wouldnt be simple ether machines. Annnnd no one really wants ether to be a way of life, unless its very cheap, building regular leveling mechanics with ethers in mind is a bad idea.

ANNNNDD lets not forget that using items is currently not easily achieved. Its only from the menu on the bottom that you can use it, maybe macros, but that doesnt tell you how many you have left. Before they build the game to have quick item use, they probably need to re UI item use overal

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Well I figured they would be nice to become somewhat necessities in long fights like Yagudo drinks in FF11 but be great to have on hand just in case of emergencies. They also were planning to allow you to put items on the action bar so there would be easy access. I'm personally hoping potions see use in emergencies too, but they would have to be balanced.

Status potions atm are really damn useful but we don't have too many opportunities to use them effectively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

ANNNNDD lets not forget that using items is currently not easily achieved. Its only from the menu on the bottom that you can use it, maybe macros, but that doesnt tell you how many you have left. Before they build the game to have quick item use, they probably need to re UI item use overal

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They said they plan to allow us to add macros and items to the action bar eventually.

edit: Beaten

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Can I just ask was it such a big crime to partially regen while doing another task in this game like travelling, closing the distance to another enemy, or trying to get back some MP during a boss fight while doing nothing but casting cure 2?

Did we have to rewind the clock on all the progress this genre has made since it was nothing but a timesink designed to keep people paying a monthly fee as long as possible?

Is it really necessary for me to stop everything, stand perfectly still, and do nothing for 30 seconds to a minute every 3 or 4 fights while soloing?

Also I'm aware that there is another thread with somebody who thinks it's a great idea to rewind the clock back to 2002 and add an animation to the stated change, but I don't support that topic.

Why should we stand still in this game when we can go play another game that will regen us to full after standing still for 20 seconds every 10 minutes or so?

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You make it sound like your only criteria for playing a game is how the mp regen works. Furthermore you make it sound like that's everyone's opinion. >.>

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You're saying that 4-5 healers was determined within hours of people getting there. This video was uploaded 3 days after the patch went live. It shows three healers
Not bashing the guys that made this video, but if they can take 3 healers in and heal not only the tank but also the DPS, with only one piece of dungeon gear among them (from what I can tell), without even doing everything they can to manage MP, then I have to wonder wth people were doing with 5 mages standing there. . .

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It's true that people were doing runs with 5 healers by default right after Darkhold hit the street. If you want to dispute that we can go digging around until we can prove it. Anyway, you seem to still be not getting past the idea that "if it can be done with less healers Neptune's point is invalid". At this point in the discussion I'm wondering if you even know what point I was trying to make when we started this discussion.

Reading into your posts, you seem to be saying that it's not the dev team's fault that players got jacked by the rise in MP costs. You are positing that it's a bunch of bad player's fault by not doing MP management, being willing to challenge themselves, etc. I think I already demonstrated that this is only partly true:

DEV TEAM => GAME DESIGN => COMMUNITY => PLAYERS

You haven't gotten past the level of community in your thinking. You need to go up a level to game design and look at it from there. Your argument is true that it had an affect on players, but it is not the whole truth.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

There is an EASY solution.

Mana regen whilst stationary - 100% (+10 for every 10 seconds)
Mana regen out of battle (whilst moving) - 80%
Mana regen during battle - 5%

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I know, why things have to be black and white with this team I'll never know. Like the emote list being banished from the gamepad - huh?? Can it not be a config option?

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Man... Guys, chill out and discover new strategies for your battles, that's what the Dev team would see us to do, since it's completely possible to do Dzemael Darkhold as it is now. Just understand better your class, plan better strategies, and you'll see that HP/MP regen problem will be no more =)

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I just want to point out Renshi that the discussion of battle strategy is about a sub point in this thread, not a main topic of discussion. These strategies are all old news. Here is a diagram of what happened in this thread:

Objection to change in regen rates
-Argument against objecting to patch notes by using MP costs as an example
--Discussion of MP costs on strategy to support or refute it's validity to refute using MP costs as an example of what happens when you "adapt" to patch notes or object to the changes

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yes thats true, SE have always preferred that players fix their lack of game design, Ninja in FF11 for example.

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lol. This made me laugh so hard earlier.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Paople ask SE to give alchemists a more relevant role in the economy and then refuse to even think about the possibility to buy Ethers for normal party play.

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To me ethers shouldn't go beyond an emergency situation. Like when you are out of MP and have to cast one more cure3 or Rebirth. Needing to go through stacks of ethers per hour isn't my idea of a good use of ethers.

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Originally Posted by Heaven

I'm sure it will make sense once we try it out.

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Why drink the kool-aid? It's not patch day so why not discuss the patch notes? If you really can analyze this situation and explain how it will "make sense" please share with me your awe-inspiring vision of standing still between battles.

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Originally Posted by Falcus

Completely agree with this.
Couldn't stand the fact that my old LS weren't even willing to try out new strategies and instead just decided to go with what other people showed worked.

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I'm glad it's your old ls now.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Unlikely. If featherfoot gave more than maybe 20-30　MP, it would be a mage exclusive skill. It's only intended to cover the use of the two advanced guild attacks, which cost 10 and 20 MP, respectively. LOL @ Featherfoot being the new "refresh".

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lol, this made me laugh too. I don't have Pugilist ranked and don't really care to, but if it really is a good ability to have I'll go get it. That doesn't stop it from being a retarded proposition for being a good mage.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

After reading your responses Neptune I determined the best course of action in this case would be to explain in greater detail how the current enmity system works as well as previous uses of the term "incurring enmity" by SE to reach a conclusion found in evidence of how regen will work after 1.19.

Enmity System

A valuable member of the FFXIV community did some extensive testing on the enmity system introduced in patch 1.18. Before I get into a simple explanation, I encourage you to peruse the following two links:

Explanation of Testing Procedure

Chart of Enmity Values

When a party is engaged in battle, each party member has a numerical enmity value equivalent to 0+ per claimed enemy. Every 1 point of damage done directly results in 1 point of enmity gained. Any 1 point of HP healed directly results in 0.75 points of enmity gained. Furthermore, other non-violent skills have static values of enmity gain. Traits such as Intimidate and Out of Sight provide +10% and -10% to all enmity gains respectively.

Essentially, a player's enmity is described most accurately as a numeric value that increases through the actions of that player. Further testing also shows that enmity neither gradually decreases over time, nor gradually increases over time.

Given that information, it is quite easy to see the difference between incurring enmity and having incured enmity:

• By performing an action that grants enmity to the user, one is incurring enmity.
• By remaining still despite having performed action earlier in the engagement, one has incurred enmity, however their enmity value has not since changed.

With a very straightforward, cumulative enmity system such as this it is not so difficult to imagine an HP/MP regen system that kicks into effect after a certain period of time of having a constant enmity value, and stops once a player's enmity value increases. Such a system would allow for a mage casting in passive mode to constantly be regenerating HP and MP by waiting between casts.

Previous Uses of the Term Incurring Enmity





The bolded areas in the above quotes include the term incurring emity being used in the same tense.

In the case of the skill, Stealth, it is quite clear that incurring enmity is referring to getting aggro. If you already have the attention of a mob you cannot activate Stealth. With what we know about the enmity system, gaining aggro from a mob does not give you any numerical enmity. If another player was to come by and do exactly 1 damage on the enemy that has aggroed you, they would gain the enemy's attention and have hate on themselves henceforth.

This is important, because it points out that one can have an enmity value of 0, yet be in a state of incurring enmity.

The same conclusion can be reached by the information given by the information pertaining to the Chocobo Whistle.

With that manner of a definition, things get even more interesting. This implies that incurring enmity isn't necessarily based directly on your numerical enmity value, but rather the state of having the enemy's attention. When applied to the description of the changes to how one regenerates HP/MP it can be concluded that HP/MP regen only does not occur when the mage in a passive stance has a blinking red icon (has the mob's attention/hate), provided they are not at that point using an action.



Furthermore, provided how performing an action is already explicitly given as something that resets HP/MP regen (note the use of reset instead of cease/stop) it would be redundant to suggest they mean to say gaining points of enmity will reset your regen value. Therefore, personally I am leaning towards HP/MP regen being active at all times between actions by a mage in passive mode so long as the mage is not blinking red.

I hope with that wall of text I was able to explain my reasoning effectively, and at least allow you to see the viable probability that mages very well may be regenerating MP quite often during party battle content.

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Why thank you for your generous reply. I didn't know you were thinking that critically about the enmity system, and I think you made a few oversights which led me to think that.

I should point out that this discussion at this point is just debating the finer points of speculation which will be resolved on patch day.

-You said that getting attacked adds 0 enmity. If you look over Kaeko's testing he didn't test for that. He cast Stoneskin to specifically exclude that value, whatever it is, from showing up in his tests. With that numerical value in mind for the duration of the encounter, I think it's easier to understand the distinction the patch notes make between having no enmity and incurring enmity.
-The patch notes don't make a distinction between incurring enmity and incurred enmity: you are the one making that distinction.
-Your central point that one could be aggroed and have 0 enmity can only be reasonably thought of in one situation: that you have been aggroed and have Stoneskin up and haven't yet taken damage. What kind of a scenario is that to base an argument for useful HP/MP regeneration off of?
-It makes sense that the patch notes say reset and not stop because it's referring to the rate per second of regen.

That is why I think, even though you have explained your thoughts in detail, you are still reaching very far to think there will be in battle regen based on reading the patch notes.

I think the patch notes mention being engaged in battle because you could be idle when your party engages an enemy and still regen until you take action. Occam's Razor. But we'll see soon.

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Originally Posted by ShinChuck

I vote Neptune to replace Yoshi-P. Dead serious.

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I'm flattered, but I think Yoshi-P is a good dude. I wish he'd take more of a leap of creativity instead of resting on the past. At least he set these boards up so we could even have the opportunity to make our topic and try to get his attention so we can say.. Yoshi-P! What the hell!

Also your blog looks interesting, I will check it out.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Lol another Neptune post. I guess it's about that time again, completely blowing things out of proportion. We'd only be sending the MMO genre back if we used the same tired bullshit every other MMO does which is just MP regen = more potions. Why bother creating an MP regen mechanic when you can just drink potions?! I mean seriously, people wanted casting in passive mode. The dev team is giving it to them but balancing it. Cry more, learn to adapt or quit please.

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Haha man I could go on and on about this patch. It's great in some ways and then there's stuff like this regen. I just don't get it. One thing at a time though.

I'm not sure where you are going with potions. Are you saying people who take damage should drink potions instead of getting cured? If so I will gladly jump on board with that. I think that leads to a lot more critical thinking during battles.. that is the way of Demon's Souls.

As to your comment about passive mode, I think you don't get why people asked for that. It had nothing to do with regen, it was about taking action without the delay caused by entering active mode. People started speculating that it would let you cast with regen. I never believed that since the had tuned Darkhold so hard to higher Cure costs, and that's why it's consistent with Darkhold that there is no combat regen at all. -And why the patch notes even mention enmity playing a factor in passive mode.

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Originally Posted by Firon

What i find funny is that the mp you get while walking is so little it rly make a difference....

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That is funny, and that's also what makes it even retardeder that it's taken out of the game. It's like you are already down in the dirt does the dev team really need to come along and kick you in your face?

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The new rate at which you regenerate HP/MP when standing still is the most significant factor here. Something we'll know only after the patch.

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The only scenario where this would be a factor is if your HP/MP is instantly restored after standing still for 1 second. Other than that it would not be worth it to STOP IN ONE PLACE instead of moving ahead.

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Originally Posted by Ichi

You make it sound like your only criteria for playing a game is how the mp regen works. Furthermore you make it sound like that's everyone's opinion. >.>

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It's not my only criteria. I like this game a lot but if these stupid decisions pile up too high I may call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

To me ethers shouldn't go beyond an emergency situation. Like when you are out of MP and have to cast one more cure3 or Rebirth. Needing to go through stacks of ethers per hour isn't my idea of a good use of ethers.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I'm not sure where you are going with potions. Are you saying people who take damage should drink potions instead of getting cured? If so I will gladly jump on board with that. I think that leads to a lot more critical thinking during battles.. that is the way of Demon's Souls.

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Wait, what?

Anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? lol

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

A bad supporting argument? Why, because it's not something you agree with?

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lol isn't that always the case with Neptune?

Every one of his threads looks the same in that regard.

1. Neptune makes assertion, presuming to speak for others (even while others don't seem to agree with him)
2. Neptune receives various responses, addressing or otherwise refuting his assertion
3. Neptune tells people to "take off their blinders", "follow the argument" or some other condescending remark.

I don't think I've ever seen Neptune not complaining about something. I don't think I've ever seen Neptune concede that he's incorrect or perhaps approaching an issue from the wrong direction. I don't think I've ever seen Neptune not being an arrogant, condescending prick to anyone who disagrees with him, however politely they do so.

In Neptune's world, he's right and you either agree with him or you're wrong. Period.

Why people even entertain any kind of discussion with the guy I have no idea. It's like talking to a brick wall. Actually no. Brick walls at least have the class to not insult you for "daring" to disagree with what they say or voicing an opposing point-of-view.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Look around you, many players have adapted to the changes just fine.

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People have been proving his assertions wrong left and right for months now. It never makes a difference. He simply dismisses it.

He's "right" and everyone who disagrees is wrong and "needs to take their blinders off".

The man is the epitome of self-righteous arrogance. His mentality seems to be "Others are entitled to their petty little insignificant opinions. But everyone is obligated to mine. Because I'm always right."

I agree, Preypacer.

His last two posts also just confirmed that he cares only about himself and not other players as he so claims.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Wait, what?

Anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? lol

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You haven't played Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls, Cure is a very rarely used spell. You are not responsible for your team mate's health. Everyone has their own potions to use, but it's not something you use with frequency. You only use it when you screw up. More MMOs should be like that gameplay I think.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

lol isn't that always the case with Neptune?

People have been proving his assertions wrong left and right for months now. It never makes a difference. He simply dismisses it.

He's "right" and everyone who disagrees is wrong and "needs to take their blinders off".

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It's easy to talk about somebody when you lack the ability to step into the discussion or the depth to appreciate the situation at hand. If I've ever said anything "wrong" please demonstrate where I "dismissed" it. I don't expect you to reply since you are going to have a hard time coming up with facts. Do you have anything else to add or are you just upset that I'm objecting to an added timesink to the game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

I agree, Preypacer.

His last two posts also just confirmed that he cares only about himself and not other players as he so claims.

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How's that? I'm a soloer because when I level I do so casually. So I don't appreciate the timesink.

However it is you that shows no regard for other classes since you have posted over and over that people shouldn't support an inexperienced or normally-ranked tank, or support their preferred linkshells, and that any trouble they experience due to lacking game design is their fault. Why don't you support the idea of the dev team making it's player's lives easier?

Actually, after thinking about it a second I think I see your point. You don't think I care about NoctisUmbra or you, and actually I don't care for your posts since you have not showed compassion for the weak. I don't care for your actions but I accept you as a poster, and I wish you opened your mind to issues you don't normally consider. As for Noctis, I think he and I have been having a nice discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

You haven't played Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls, Cure is a very rarely used spell. You are not responsible for your team mate's health. Everyone has their own potions to use, but it's not something you use with frequency. You only use it when you screw up. More MMOs should be like that gameplay I think.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

How's that? I'm a soloer because when I level I do so casually. So I don't appreciate the timesink.

However it is you that shows no regard for other classes since you have posted over and over that people shouldn't support an inexperienced or normally-ranked tank, or support their preferred linkshells, and that any trouble they experience due to lacking game design is their fault. Why don't you support the idea of the dev team making it's player's lives easier?

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Where did I say that people shouldn't support other players?? In fact, I'm pretty sure I said the opposite. I'd like to see people work together forming their own strategies and not be tied down to the ones that are already proven to work.

And yes, you do only think about yourself. Saying that you're against using ethers as a means of MP regeneration but then saying you're totally fine with Melee using potions to heal themselves is a prime example. Anything that makes things easier for YOU. Who cares about other players, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Yes, I'm sure everyone will adapt without thinking about where this game stands in relation to the genre, the past, and competing games.

I'd like to welcome anyone else to this thread that feels (not thinks) accepting everything to come out of SE patch notes is not to be disputed. Jesus said we will always have the poor, and I feel we will always have your lot.

No, MP costs did not turn out to be perfectly fine once people got "used" to them.

*MeowyWowie's Special Breakdown of People Getting Used To MP Costs*

-Open LS chat
- /l Darkhold run, looking for 4 Conjurers
- Party complete, 40-50% healers, 1 tank, 4 DPS
- Other classes wondering why they were left out
- Conclusion: PGL, MRD, and LNC have the best adaptation rates of all the classes!

*This concludes MeowyWowie's lesson On How To Adapt To FFXIV Patch Notes*

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We accept it because the only other option (which no one on this forum seems to exercise) is to stop playing. Instead, you would rather continue playing so you feel like you have a right to complain. The sense of entitlement people have developed with this game over the past year is astounding. Post your response about how you dislike this particular feature and move on. But don't talk shit about people that don't have a problem with something that you do. Just because we don't feel like crying over every little feature they impliment that we may not agree with doesn't make us all a bunch of yes-men, it just means we are willing to compromise At the end of the day its SE's game, not yours. Suck it up and move on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Why thank you for your generous reply. I didn't know you were thinking that critically about the enmity system, and I think you made a few oversights which led me to think that.

I should point out that this discussion at this point is just debating the finer points of speculation which will be resolved on patch day.

-You said that getting attacked adds 0 enmity. If you look over Kaeko's testing he didn't test for that. He cast Stoneskin to specifically exclude that value, whatever it is, from showing up in his tests. With that numerical value in mind for the duration of the encounter, I think it's easier to understand the distinction the patch notes make between having no enmity and incurring enmity.
-The patch notes don't make a distinction between incurring enmity and incurred enmity: you are the one making that distinction.
-Your central point that one could be aggroed and have 0 enmity can only be reasonably thought of in one situation: that you have been aggroed and have Stoneskin up and haven't yet taken damage. What kind of a scenario is that to base an argument for useful HP/MP regeneration off of?
-It makes sense that the patch notes say reset and not stop because it's referring to the rate per second of regen.

That is why I think, even though you have explained your thoughts in detail, you are still reaching very far to think there will be in battle regen based on reading the patch notes.

I think the patch notes mention being engaged in battle because you could be idle when your party engages an enemy and still regen until you take action. Occam's Razor. But we'll see soon.

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Actually, I distinctly remember him pointing out there is no gain/loss in enmity due to taking damage. Initially he used stoneskin to remove that as a variable while testing other mechanics, such as hate amount generated. Later he went on to prove that taking damage does not change your enmity value.

That being said, at this point I think we've both expressed ourselves thoroughly and is best we simply agree to disagree. Besides, in a matter of 2 days when we find out who was right we can just point and laugh then :P

PS: I really hope I don't need to write an essay to get past your condescending phase next time lol


As for a number of other posts in this thread, personally attacking anyone doesn't get you anywhere. It just reduces your credibility and chance of being taken seriously. Whoever the person in question may be.

Well... still, why should you heal yourself while walking? It's like fixing your injuries while you patch your legs or arms, which in a real context is pretty disturbing.
By being still there's a chance to bring in a Recovery animation, supporting that other thread, and it feels more logical to heal while staying still, so you can patch yourself during that time.

We'll have this feature. Might be good, might be bad, only we can see it when we will be able to play (Damn me for transfering so I can't play the game at Day1!!!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Where did I say that people shouldn't support other players??

And yes, you do only think about yourself. Saying that you're against using ethers as a means of MP regeneration but then saying you're totally fine with Melee using potions to heal themselves is a prime example. Anything that makes things easier for YOU. Who cares about other players, right?

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If you really believed in support for other players you would empathize with those very same players when they post here. For instance, let's say you enjoy the timesink added by standstill regen because it adds to your immersion. How about casual players that don't enjoy that timesink? Are you willing to give up defending a timesink so that potentially millions of people can be freed from a timesink and enjoy more convenience?

Obviously you didn't read my post about Demon's Souls. If I enjoy a game like Demon's Souls do you really think I want things easier? Don't think about MMOs as players doing "work" - it is about having fun. I assume you are resorting to character assassination and talking about easy mode because I have defeated your arguments and you have no remaining options.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

We accept it because the only other option ....

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You don't seem to realize this but these forums are here for feedback to.. change the game's direction. It's not accept or quit. It's accept, quit, or ask for a change in direction.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

[COLOR="navy"]Actually, I distinctly remember him pointing out there is no gain/loss in enmity due to taking damage.

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What he said was:

- Taking damage or evading attacks does not cause loss of non-decaying portion of enmity

It doesn't lead to a decrease in enmity, of course, because it's an accumulation system. So whether or not damage taken adds to enmity is yet to be determined.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

PS: I really hope I don't need to write an essay to get past your condescending phase next time lol

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lol.. it certainly helps

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Well... still, why should you heal yourself while walking?

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Well, it's true that it's more realistic to heal in a stationary position but it's also not very realistic to survive an intense beating by an Ogre. Also your character could go to the bathroom every few hours and it could take hours to get to the next camp, but instead we have conveniences to balance fun and realism. When you play an MMO for hundreds of hours I think it should be more convenient to do repetitive tasks than in a single player game.

I see the point to not being able to regen while in battle/enmity or while casting buffs 'n stuff, but why make it so we have to stand still? That's so... not fun. Do these devs not understand the basics of gaming mechanics these days? You don't make a game fun by forcing your players to not press anything and stare at the screen. Just when I think these new devs know what they are doing, they prove that Square is full of old talent that is out of touch with next-gen (read: current-gen) gaming.

*sigh* It was only a matter of time before this thread had to pop up. :rolleyes:

With being able to cast in passive mode I think it's quite reasonable to only allow recharging MP while standing still. Though, I admit, it could become a bit annoying for soloing. I actually hated waiting for ~5 mins to recharge to full MP in XI as a Tarutaru BLM.

But even if SE allowed to recharge MP while walking, you'd probably have too much MP (still seems a tad too easy but way better than before) and we'd be where we started before the cure change a few patches back.

Guess this is a prime example of whishes that backfire on you because (some) community members tend to be short-sighted.

For the record, I shall reserve my judgement until I see it for myself (Though, I like the changes).

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Originally Posted by Cicatriz

I see the point to not being able to regen while in battle/enmity or while casting buffs 'n stuff, but why make it so we have to stand still? That's so... not fun. Do these devs not understand the basics of gaming mechanics these days? You don't make a game fun by forcing your players to not press anything and stare at the screen. Just when I think these new devs know what they are doing, they prove that Square is full of old talent that is out of touch with next-gen (read: current-gen) gaming.

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Preach it.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

[COLOR="green"]
With being able to cast in passive mode I think it's quite reasonable to only allow recharging MP while standing still. Though, I admit, it could become a bit annoying for soloing. I actually hated waiting for ~5 mins to recharge to full MP in XI as a Tarutaru BLM.

But even if SE allowed to recharge MP while walking, you'd probably have too much MP (still seems a tad too easy but way better than before) and we'd be where we started before the cure change a few patches back.

Guess this is a prime example of whishes that backfire on you because (some) community members tend to be short-sighted.

For the record, I shall reserve my judgement until I see it for myself (Though, I like the changes).

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The new passive mode is the old active mode. In other words, no regen.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Featherfoot has 30 sec recast.

Problem solved.

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*Locked to Puglist only*

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

*Locked to Puglist only*

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Nah it would say it if it was. Look at Victimize on the patch notes.

You know, Neptune. I saw many of your previous threads and I found myself to disagree with probably most of your posts on these forums. However, having never gotten into such a detailed debate with you before I think I realized something after all of this.

People just don't understand you.

Although the implications of this favor you not being able to express yourself properly rather than everyone else misunderstanding, I can say I do have some manner of respect for your posts now that I didn't before.

So keep making your posts. Based on the trend so far, I'll always be there to disagree :P

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Originally Posted by Neptune

If you really believed in support for other players you would empathize with those very same players when they post here. For instance, let's say you enjoy the timesink added by standstill regen because it adds to your immersion. How about casual players that don't enjoy that timesink? Are you willing to give up defending a timesink so that potentially millions of people can be freed from a timesink and enjoy more convenience?

Obviously you didn't read my post about Demon's Souls. If I enjoy a game like Demon's Souls do you really think I want things easier? Don't think about MMOs as players doing "work" - it is about having fun. I assume you are resorting to character assassination and talking about easy mode because I have defeated your arguments and you have no remaining options.

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Defeated my arguments?

First of all, if you're going to quote me, quote everything I said, or did you not read it all?

Supporting players and supporting players' opinions are 2 different things. I thought we were talking about letting all players have equal access to content regardless of their class/skill, is it not? "Oh, you don't have ARC? That's cool, come whatever class you want and we'll try and make it work." That's supporting players. Letting them play whatever they want and not casting them out if they don't have a specific class you are looking for.

But now you're saying I should support your opinion on something. Why the hell should I support your opinion if I don't agree with it? Again, this is all about you and you're just further proving that with every new post you make.

And FYI, this isn't Demon Souls. How many FFs have you played where potions were the primary way to replenish HP? You clearly said that you'd be in favor of Melee players healing themselves with potions. But on the other hand, when someone suggests the same exact thing to you with ethers you're against it. You couldn't give two shits about Melee players and would actually encourage them to rely on items to stay alive. But when something affects casters negatively you're all over it, because you yourself are a caster. Are you that ignorant that you don't see the problem with that?

I really don't even know why I'm still replying here. It's like arguing with a brick wall.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Wait, what?

Anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? lol

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I do, quite a bit. Clicking the drink potion button isn't challenging nor does it require any critical thinking. The system we have currently relies on ones trust with their healer and that the healer can manage their MP well enough. It's an actual party mechanic instead of an inventory stuffer.

Why should you Regen HP for standing at all?

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Originally Posted by Cicatriz

I see the point to not being able to regen while in battle/enmity or while casting buffs 'n stuff, but why make it so we have to stand still? That's so... not fun. Do these devs not understand the basics of gaming mechanics these days? You don't make a game fun by forcing your players to not press anything and stare at the screen. Just when I think these new devs know what they are doing, they prove that Square is full of old talent that is out of touch with next-gen (read: current-gen) gaming.

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This is exactly it, active mp management skills, and strategy is one thing. Having to run 200 yalms to get to the next monster, then have to wait for full mp after that.... is wack, getting mp while moving when out of combat does not make anything easier. It is 100% time sink cutting, 100% less staring at the screen while waiting for mp.

I certainly see why they might have to do it in combat, now that people can cast without being in active mode.

but outside of fights, traveling long distances, etc, there is no benefit to not having mana/hp regen. I guess they want to encourage camping... but i honestly didnt really want more camping and stand still play mechanics

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Originally Posted by Neptune

It's true that people were doing runs with 5 healers by default right after Darkhold hit the street. If you want to dispute that we can go digging around until we can prove it. Anyway, you seem to still be not getting past the idea that "if it can be done with less healers Neptune's point is invalid". At this point in the discussion I'm wondering if you even know what point I was trying to make when we started this discussion.

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Just to clarify, your point is that the immediate reaction to MP cost changes on cures was to bring in more healers, who took up what should have been DPS slots. This was done under because it required 4-5 healers at the time to keep the tank alive.

If I'm wrong about your assertion, please let me know. However, I would ask that your response to this portion be simple cause and effect chains. I'd like to have definite causes leading immediately to definite effects to work with, if you don't mind. :)

MeowyWowie, I'm taking a break from arguing with you to do some homework. But stay tuned. lol.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

You know, Neptune. I saw many of your previous threads and I found myself to disagree with probably most of your posts on these forums. However, having never gotten into such a detailed debate with you before I think I realized something after all of this.

People just don't understand you.

Although the implications of this favor you not being able to express yourself properly rather than everyone else misunderstanding, I can say I do have some manner of respect for your posts now that I didn't before.

So keep making your posts. Based on the trend so far, I'll always be there to disagree :P

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Lol. Well thank you, that is awfully nice to say. I do seem to have trouble expressing myself.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Just to clarify, your point is that the immediate reaction to MP cost changes on cures was to bring in more healers, who took up what should have been DPS slots. This was done under because it required 4-5 healers at the time to keep the tank alive.

If I'm wrong about your assertion, please let me know. However, I would ask that your response to this portion be simple cause and effect chains. I'd like to have definite causes leading immediately to definite effects to work with, if you don't mind. :)

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That's exactly right! Also that is a mere sub point in the larger discussion about the merits of objecting to patch notes or announcements. My goal was to foster some discussion about this issue, and there has been a lot of likes on the OP, which is good. Maybe we will at least see some official comment on the reasoning behind changing the regeneration to a stand still activity.