Naoki Yoshida, Balance the game please [War DPS TOO HIGH!]

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

IF you aren't going to offer any evidence, or accept others, then your opinion is based off what you want to be true, as opposed to the reality that DRK is a weak hybrid of pld/war.

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Not sure who you're supposed to be addressing here, but you may want to read that statement back at yourself.

Any DPS who manages to do less damage than a similarly geared WAR is bad. No exceptions.

PLD and DRK might be behind WAR DPS as OT, but not so far as to be oppressive. PLD makes for a fine OT, and DRK's complete lack of value as OT has nothing to do with its raw damage output (TP is certainly an issue, but the actual numbers that DRK puts out aren't).
In an MT situation, DRK and WAR will likely compete for top DPS, depending on how often WAR is able to switch to Deliverance safely. Once again, PLD should not be very far behind. Do keep in mind that people do a great job of severely underestimating just how much damage PLD is capable of.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Warriors should be high damage. They are Warriors.
Dark Knight's should have less damage then Warriors, they are Warriors.
DPS should have more damage then Warriors, if that isn't the case you need to read some guides and play better.

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Class name means nothing, nor do weapons. MNKs should be worse than any class with weapons by that logic.

Why are you people all about nerfs when it comes to "balance" why not uhh buff the other roles to the same level

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

Q&A:

My first reaction is: WHAT? is this a joke Yoshida? are you kidding me? So basically, because they have storms eye, their dps has to be 900DPS? NINJA has the SAME slashing debuff and in berserk Warriors can pull 3 Fell Cleaves, each that can crit for 9k+ and no TP cost? how balanced is Warrior? Is Warrior a DPS or a Tank? I am seriously putting my marks on that because as of right now, Dark Knight runs out of TP pretty fast - no self tp management like Warrior has and they do lower DPS compared to Warrior so of course people choose Warrior over a Dark Knight any day! Tone down the DPS of Warrior please because it's NOT in balance as of right now.
Also mentioning the fact that Warriors have high vitality and good defensive cooldowns - no excuse to make their dps way higher than a Dark Knight.

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You're being ridiculous. Warriors have to decide between survivability and damage when going for the highest possible dps, which in turn is only reached by top notch players in good statics. It is not the norm for most Warrior players to reach those heights, and you absolutely cannot balance a class around something that only a minority of players can achieve. Average Warrior dps is respectable but NOT game breaking. You need to relax, bud.

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Originally Posted by dank1

Why are you people all about nerfs when it comes to "balance" why not uhh buff the other roles to the same level

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As mentioned before this is all good in theory but falls flat in practice. Buffing everyone else makes dps checks easier, throws off the threat generation of classes in relation to others and introduces a whole bunch of other problems. If you mess with the dps checks you now need to mess with enrage timers. Mess with enrage timers and you could be messing with the total number of times a mechanic is seen. If the mechanic is made faster to maintain an equal number you may have now increases the incoming dps of the fight and made it much harder/impossible to survive. People don't like nerfs, but you can't expect buffs to every class across the board when one class is slightly out of balance.

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Originally Posted by dank1

Why are you people all about nerfs when it comes to "balance" why not uhh buff the other roles to the same level

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While I don't at all agree with OP's laughable desire for WAR nerfs, I'd like to point out that the whole "buff everything else" mindset is incredibly flawed, and no serious developer would ever actually consider it unless there were some serious fundamental issues with the design of their game.
You can't just buff everything infinitely. There is a certain baseline that needs to be maintained for content to have a satisfying level of difficulty while still being approachable. Moreover, buffing everything else is a really roundabout "solution" that ends up requiring a lot more work and can end up causing further balance issues (leading to a need for more buffs, which then lead to a need for more, and then more, and then...). Working on the class that is the actual problem keeps things contained and manageable, and allows developers to balance the class to the content, and not the other way around. Nerfs and buffs go hand in hand, and there's a time and place for both.

That said, WAR is fine. If any of the tanks need to be changed, it's DRK's need for some buffs/redesign, and any DPS that are complaining about the damage output of WAR, or any other tank, need to learn how to play the damn game.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

PLD and DRK might be behind WAR DPS as OT, but not so far as to be oppressive. PLD makes for a fine OT, and DRK's complete lack of value as OT has nothing to do with its raw damage output (TP is certainly an issue, but the actual numbers that DRK puts out aren't).
In an MT situation, DRK and WAR will likely compete for top DPS, depending on how often WAR is able to switch to Deliverance safely. Once again, PLD should not be very far behind. Do keep in mind that people do a great job of severely underestimating just how much damage PLD is capable of.

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This. Also pld us still the prime candidate for tanking in their atk stance as they loose no actions doing so. Similarly drk does not loose any defensive abilities dropping grit (Except soul eater HP) turning off grit. War in deliverance looses IB and becomes immensely more fragile.

Looking at past meta, drk and pld will become the top tier dps main tanks with superior mitigation in dps stance. War will be relegated to off tank as usual, swapping in to unchained occasionally then ducking out to let plds and drks tank in SO/noGrit.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

This. Also pld us still the prime candidate for tanking in their atk stance as they loose no actions doing so. Similarly drk does not loose any defensive abilities dropping grit (Except soul eater HP) turning off grit. War in deliverance looses IB and becomes immensely more fragile.

Looking at past meta, drk and pld will become the top tier dps main tanks with superior mitigation in dps stance. War will be relegated to off tank as usual, swapping in to unchained occasionally then ducking out to let plds and drks tank in SO/noGrit.

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PLD has major hate problems in sword oath. In 2.x it wasn't a problem in 3.0 it is very apparent. Having to spam Halone still instead of Royal puts a huge damper on DPS when compared to DRK or WAR. Esp WAR since their rotation for DPS and hate are exactly the same.

It reminds me when Dragoon wasn't chosen in the 2.3;2.4 days because he was kind of weak. SE statistically noticed that people weren't taking dragoons into parties and this scared the living pants off of them.

If they notice people are clearing dps checks of "extreme" content a few weeks after release with like 5 warriors, I can personally assume they will in fact nerf warrior dps or at least tp usage.

When they see that any class is being cast aside or eschewed for another meta, they kick it into high gear and make adjustments ASAP.

I'm not saying it for sure, but I would greatly suspect they will either adjust your dps, or more likely, adjust your ability to burst so easily or reliably.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

It reminds me when Dragoon wasn't chosen in the 2.3;2.4 days because he was kind of weak. SE statistically noticed that people weren't taking dragoons into parties and this scared the living pants off of them.

If they notice people are clearing dps checks of "extreme" content a few weeks after release with like 5 warriors, I can personally assume they will in fact nerf warrior dps or at least tp usage.

When they see that any class is being cast aside or eschewed for another meta, they kick it into high gear and make adjustments ASAP.

I'm not saying it for sure, but I would greatly suspect they will either adjust your dps, or more likely, adjust your ability to burst so easily or reliably.

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Except the only problem here is that bad DPS can't keep up. Pretty much any content you could clear with 5 WARs, you could clear with any combination of 5 tanks (although you might want to consider at least one WAR for Storm's Eye). SE shouldn't balance this game around DPS players who can't parse beyond 500.

In the case of DRG, it was a matter of the class being statistically worse than other DPS at the same roll, regardless of how good your execution may have been. DRGs were ignored because they simply could not possibly perform to the level that other DPS could. In the case of WAR, it's not performing to a degree that its rendering DPS irrelevant. It's just that most DPS players perform to a degree that renders themselves irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Would be more fun if they made Dark Knight a bit more powerful or more utility instead of weakening Warrior.

I feel like Warrior high dps is part of its identity, offsetting it not having as much insane damage mitigation as paladin.

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i like the way you think friend... glass half full!!

I agree, they shouldn't tune the game to those dps that can't parse over 500. That said, SE are the ones with the statistics of "average" dps levels of all players and will adjust the game accordingly so the majority of the base can play the content (like when they nerfed ninja on release because they didn't anticipate the levels of dps that players could achieve with it).

Warrior is a beast, I'm not complaining, the more damage the better. But if they see a clear exclusion or preference towards any one class, they will adjust things, as they have historical done.

I would be fine with a buff. Paladin threat and dps is simply --to-- low atm.

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Originally Posted by Ocyrith

Maybe you should git gud?

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you mean grit gud?

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

As mentioned before this is all good in theory but falls flat in practice. Buffing everyone else makes dps checks easier, throws off the threat generation of classes in relation to others and introduces a whole bunch of other problems. If you mess with the dps checks you now need to mess with enrage timers. Mess with enrage timers and you could be messing with the total number of times a mechanic is se is slightly out of balance.

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In buffing players you could also buff the content, nobody likes nerfs. I dont even main warr I main drk and I'd hate to see them nerfed just cause someone was envious of another class, with buffing not only the classes but the contents, you're essentially nerfing the players without calling it that and the backlash that comes with it.

Edit: to the guy complaining about warriors as a drk, I outperform most warriors I encounter on the DF and even PF averaging 700 dpsish when I focus and go all out, this is without hive weap, being mediocre on any class is easy you just have to put the effort not to be

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Warrior is a beast, I'm not complaining, the more damage the better. But if they see a clear exclusion or preference towards any one class, they will adjust things, as they have historical done.

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This right here.. They nerfed nins in FFXI like 5 times during the 75era, trying to keep them from not being a tank class as everyone flocked to it because "shadows = INVINCIBLE". All the while doing *nothing* for PLDs. WARs had to work extra harder to tank(WARs were DD back when damage dealers were called that), despite being the only class that natively gets provoke.

But that game was run by a totally different team.

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Originally Posted by dank1

In buffing players you could also buff the content, nobody likes nerfs. I dont even main warr I main drk and I'd hate to see them nerfed just cause someone was envious of another class, with buffing not only the classes but the contents, you're essentially nerfing the players without calling it that and the backlash that comes with it.

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That's a silly work around that costs more development time and effort.
So if there's one Job out of balance, the whole role gets brought up and content is buffed too just to appease the players of one Job.
You can't move the whole goalpost every time, you need a standard to balance around.

Nerfing can't be some taboo because some players can't get over themselves.
That's ridiculous to tune content and every other Job shifting the whole balance around just to avoid hurting some feelings, while aiming to accomplish a nerf in the end.

Not that I'm saying WAR needs nerfing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

"They are Warriors" doesn't mean anything. What do you base yourself on to say what a WAR should be ?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ZMmEFA4Q0

:p

Pretty sure OP is just joking.

The reality here is they have given Warriors the best of everything with no real downsides to the class.

Maim is stupid easy to keep up and completely makes up for the lower combo potency. Any attack that matters in Defiance just ignores the damage penalty and of course Fell Cleave.

Fell Cleave isn't the major issue itself but it's way too good for the Warriors when you consider the rest of the toolset. Not really sure what they were thinking by giving Warriors of all classes a 500 potency skill. The job has a stupid amount of tools to stack damage, then to top it off it's only limited by a resource that is easy to store and refresh with available tools. Then give it the natural ability to crit often. And if all that isn't enough, give the job the easiest method to get into a DPS stance from a tank stance to use it.

Meanwhile the other two tanks have lesser abilities, no skill synergy to make them better and they are strictly controlled by resources and cool downs.

PLD needs dps buffed for the simple fact no one would take a pld to alexander savage when you can take a superior dark knight main tank and warrior off tank.

Agreed with OP, when Tank damage (war) is on Par with DPS (Brd and Mch in this case) then either those DPS need to be boosted or the tank needs to be nerfed...

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Originally Posted by JibeMalkieri

Agreed with OP, when Tank damage (war) is on Par with DPS (Brd and Mch in this case) then either those DPS need to be boosted or the tank needs to be nerfed...

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The reality is both needs to happen. Back to back to back Fell Cleaving is complete non-sense. A minute recast needs to be added to it. Also the critical chance buff on Deliverance need to be done away with.

PLD then needs a method to regen some TP otherwise they are in a good spot if the Fell Cleave spamming is done away with.

DRK need a lot of work. TP regen is a must, they need some kind of party dmg increase skill and they need a cool down or two to allow for some better burst dmg.

WAR doesn't need to be touched at all. With Storm's Eye, it's barely ahead of the other two in DPS, and in any serious content Eye should be up the majority of the time. If you want PLD to be the best physical tank and DRK to be the best magical tank then WAR needs to get something too, and right now SE has decided that that's better TP sustain and slightly higher damage.

A tank shouldn't be outdpsing you.

Also why would you put fell cleave on a timer ? You do know you can't spam the ability right ? The reason war has that insane dps (it's really not that great, what do you expect that we would still do the same dps as 2.0 despite the gear and level upgrades ._. ?) is again due to beserk and storm's eye.

War is also a burst tank, but once that burst vanishes we have to rebuild it back up.

Finally unless you are MTing in deliverance (in which case as a Astro/SCH I hate you with all my being) what is the problem ? Deliverance is meant to be off tank I highly doubt alex savage will allow War to get away with mting in that.

You guys are using easy content to jutisfy a nerf to the class, you don't even know what alex savage will hold ._.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Finally unless you are MTing in deliverance (in which case as a Astro/SCH I hate you with all my being) what is the problem ? Deliverance is meant to be off tank I highly doubt alex savage will allow War to get away with mting in that.

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But WAR can switch to Deliverance (transfering all its wrath stack to Abandon), use Fell Cleave, use Infuriate, use Fell Cleave again, and back up in Defiance in a 10-second window.
10 second without any big damage is not uncommon, like in A4 right after you kill the first foreleg.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But WAR can switch to Deliverance (transfering all its wrath stack to Abandon), use Fell Cleave, use Infuriate, use Fell Cleave again, and back up in Defiance in a 10-second window.
10 second without any big damage is not uncommon, like in A4 right after you kill the first foreleg.

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Which also removes the option to use Inner Beast, which costs you a significant amount of mitigation, should you opt to take this route. And by burning Infuriate, you need to spend a considerable amount of time rebuilding those stacks. Not to mention that you'll need to be healed when switching back to defiance. And while there are certainly times where that is an optimal decision to make, having that choice is one of the perks of being WAR.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

Which also removes the option to use Inner Beast, which costs you a significant amount of mitigation, should you opt to take this route. And by burning Infuriate, you need to spend a considerable amount of time rebuilding those stacks. Not to mention that you'll need to be healed when switching back to defiance. And while there are certainly times where that is an optimal decision to make, having that choice is one of the perks of being WAR.

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"Considerable" amount of time ? PLD and DRK's mitigation cooldown want to have a word with you :p

Indeed, it's WAR perk...that still puts it far above other tank DPS as MT, whereas its mitigation is pretty much on par too.

Like kiteless said at the cost of damage mitigation.

Do you see how people are going against their own points ?

Deliverance is not as op as you think, from a healer perspective it is highly annoying to watch a War blow their 2 stacks of abandon on fell cleave then take a huge hit without even popping a cooldown prior to it.....

As a War it annoys me further because your deeps don't matter if your dead.

Like it's fine to tank in deliverance but for the love of GOD, please use a damn cooldown if you know a big hit is coming, foresight, hell vegenance even raw intution.

Nothing but sad and pathetic. As a DRK main it really is sad to so many others whining so much for what another job has, really WAR has been through the crucible of all 1.0, 2.0 to it's current iteration. One day we will get a look back at our tool kits and be adjusted as such. At this moment with gear constantly being introduced, the long term effects of changing anything on DRK are simply above what the player base can envision in terms of gameplay balance. So damn eager and ready to cry foul until your overpowered but wont take a moment to understand you don't know the end game, the plan, or the direction the creators are going to chose to take the job. What so many seem to forget is your a TANK... Why are you so damn hung up on another tanks dps? if your having trouble mainlining hate it may very well be your looking to a WAR's dps to much and not focusing on the task at hand. Remember you are no longer a dps, your role has changed, learn to deal accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

"Considerable" amount of time ? PLD and DRK's mitigation cooldown want to have a word with you :p

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Between defiance and the opportunity for Inner Beast, that's essentially missing out on 40% of your damage mitigation (20% for 10 seconds, another 20% for about ~25) in order to land a couple of (admittedly really satisfying) hits, in addition to the extra healing required by switching stances. That's actually one hell of a commitment.

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Indeed, it's WAR perk...that still puts it far above other tank DPS as MT, whereas its mitigation is pretty much on par too.

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PLD offers a unique set of party support skills, just as WAR does, and while WAR's consistent damage mitigation might be on par with PLD, PLD will edge it out on physical tankbusters, overall making it an easier class to play, what with not having to deal with nearly as much risk to get its best toys off. While PLD might have some issues with hate and TP management, that doesn't really have anything to do with WAR's abilities being excessive.

And let's not use DRK as the basis for comparing the "overpowered" nature of anything. That train wreck of a class' problems are all its own.

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Originally Posted by Noira

A tank shouldn't be outdpsing you.

Also why would you put fell cleave on a timer ? You do know you can't spam the ability right ? The reason war has that insane dps (it's really not that great, what do you expect that we would still do the same dps as 2.0 despite the gear and level upgrades ._. ?) is again due to beserk and storm's eye.

War is also a burst tank, but once that burst vanishes we have to rebuild it back up.

Finally unless you are MTing in deliverance (in which case as a Astro/SCH I hate you with all my being) what is the problem ? Deliverance is meant to be off tank I highly doubt alex savage will allow War to get away with mting in that.

You guys are using easy content to jutisfy a nerf to the class, you don't even know what alex savage will hold ._.

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Oh come on. You can pop off THREE Fell Cleaves under Berserk every 90 seconds and it takes you all of 20 seconds to re-build Abandon and fire off another FC.

To put that in perspective, you basically get three full powered FCs + 3 regular FCs for every ONE Dark Knight Carve and Split; adding that all FCs have a far superior net potency thanks to maim + Deliverance + 50 extra skill potency.

This kind of burst capability on a warrior is just dumb. The fact that it plays into how this game is designed is just overpowered. You are far better off with a class in this game that can sustain 600 DPS and burst up to 1300DPS for a few seconds every minute or so than you will ever be off with a class that can sustain 800DPS and have no burst.

I mean you could remove the recast on Carve and Split, put it on the GCD and people would step back and cry foul at how powerful it is. Yet that STILL wouldn't match what Warriors are able to dish out with Fell Cleave. That is how broken it is not having FC on a recast.

No one has yet to address my Alex Savage comment though ._..

Like all of this is well and fine but this is on EASY content...Hell a healer can probably pump high dps out like that on easy content.

Bring a party of War and clear Alex Savage within a week then I will believe Deliverance is op and not a situational ability that sacrifices mitigation for decent dps.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Oh come on. You can pop off THREE Fell Cleaves under Berserk every 90 seconds and it takes you all of 20 seconds to re-build Abandon and fire off another FC.

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And in doing so, you end up burning most of your mitigation options all at once while not being in an position to actually soak a tankbuster. Any WAR who does something like that while expecting to take any serious hits better have some healers altruistic to the point of sainthood.

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To put that in perspective, you basically get three full powered FCs + 3 regular FCs for every ONE Dark Knight Carve and Split; adding that all FCs have a far superior net potency thanks to maim + Deliverance + 50 extra skill potency.

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While also leaving out the fact that DRK can fit in a lot of DA+SEs during that time inbetween. I don't know about you, but when I'm not worrying about my horrible TP issues as DRK (which do need to be addressed, but once again, another problem entirely), I can pump out a lot of damage. Also DRK, train wreck, not worth these comparisons, etc.

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This kind of burst capability on a warrior is just dumb. The fact that it plays into how this game actually plays is just overpowered. You are far better off with a class in this game that can sustain 600 DPS and burst up to 1300DPS for a few seconds every minute or so than you will ever be off with a class that can sustain 800DPS and have no burst.

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...DRK actually has some pretty potent burst of its own. In fights with enough downtime where TP isn't an issue (see: Lucrezia's speedrun of Ravana Ex), DRK can actually keep up with WAR quite nicely. Granted, these situations don't pop up as often as would be ideal, but for a class that already has a huge amount of glaring flaws, you're looking for problems where there aren't any.

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I mean you could remove the recast on Carve and Split, put it on the GCD and people would step back and cry foul at how powerful it is. Yet that STILL wouldn't match what Warriors are able to dish out with Fell Cleave. That is how broken it is not having FC on a recast.

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DRK already kind of has that with Soul Eater. A healing version of that. It's actually surprisingly good. Once again, looking for problems where there aren't any, which is an impressive feat, since DRK is a minefield of them.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Oh come on. You can pop off THREE Fell Cleaves under Berserk every 90 seconds and it takes you all of 20 seconds to re-build Abandon and fire off another FC.

To put that in perspective, you basically get three full powered FCs + 3 regular FCs for every ONE Dark Knight Carve and Split; adding that all FCs have a far superior net potency thanks to maim + Deliverance + 50 extra skill potency.

This kind of burst capability on a warrior is just dumb. The fact that it plays into how this game is designed is just overpowered. You are far better off with a class in this game that can sustain 600 DPS and burst up to 1300DPS for a few seconds every minute or so than you will ever be off with a class that can sustain 800DPS and have no burst.

I mean you could remove the recast on Carve and Split, put it on the GCD and people would step back and cry foul at how powerful it is. Yet that STILL wouldn't match what Warriors are able to dish out with Fell Cleave. That is how broken it is not having FC on a recast.

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Why do you even compare Fell Cleave to Carve and Split? Soul Eater would be the more obvious choice here.

And no, a WAR cannot do 6 Fell Cleaves every 60s. Don't know where you are pulling that from.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

And no, a WAR cannot do 6 Fell Cleaves every 60s. Don't know where you are pulling that from.

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A man can dream though.

Lol so much butt hurt in this thread.

You do know the 3 cleave rotation involves an all str acc set to have the pay off needed to balence the fact your popping cool downs you don't need to use just to beat the timer to get the third cleave in right?
Also with that str acc set up your hp ain't exactly amazing. WAR is fine and don't worry, your little holier then thou PLD is still the MT of choice, no need to cry


DRK though... I don't know if they tried master of none good at everything with it or what but I haven't really used it. Better off talking to the others who main DRK as I hear some impressive stories coming out of that end.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Why do you even compare Fell Cleave to Carve and Split? Soul Eater would be the more obvious choice here.

And no, a WAR cannot do 6 Fell Cleaves every 60s. Don't know where you are pulling that from.

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Because Soul Eater is at the end of a combo. It isn't a burst skill and isn't an additional skill off of a combo chain like FC and C&S are. And if you want to get technical the effective potency of Soul Eater is 460 to Butcher Blocks 378 which is a much smaller gap than Fell Cleaves effective 675 potency to 518 potency of Carve and Split so the sustained damage is practically the same and we all know that DRKs can't sustain that type of damage for long before MP becomes and issue let alone the TP issues; both which Warriors don't have to deal with. And if you want to talk about the burst capabilities in say a 30 second timeframe, DRKs aren't even touching what Warriors are pushing out now.

Also if we were going to take Carve and Split off it's cooldown it would basically function like FC. That is a DRK will be able to push out 3 DA-C&S back to back and then will need about 20 seconds to get the mana back for another DA just like a warrior needs to rebuild wrath. And that of course leaves nothing to DA Soul Eater with meaning the Warrior is still pushing out higher potency combos than the DRK while the two of them rebuild their resource.

And yeah I guess you can only get 5 FCs in a minute. 60 seconds with Vengeance up, 62.5 seconds if it's down. This is with standard GCD of course:

FC -> Vengeance + Raw Intuition + 4(5) GCs for 3(4) more wrath (10 sec/12.5 sec) -> FC (2.5 sec) -> Infuriate -> FC (2.5 sec) -> Wrath rebuild + FC (22.5 sec) -> Wrath rebuild + FC (22.5 sec)

But really, all I am doing here is putting a lot of words to what the parsing already shows.

You are starting with 5 stacks and you use two defensive cooldowns for that? Have fun tanking savage. Also that is no rotation, that is an opener.

Edit: What parsing shows? Parsing shows that every compentent DRK will compete with a WAR until their TP runs dry if they are on the same target with the same gear. How that translates into real fights? Don't know. Up until today there haven't been any real fights in the game.