Monk 3.0 CHAKRA UNLEASHED

Just slap 15% more attack speed on Mantra which will also affect spell speed. Go! [/sarcasm]
Or not that would be a slap in the face TP wise. D:

But yeah more DPS utility wouldn't hurt. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreides

Just slap 15% more attack speed on Mantra which will also affect spell speed. Go!
Or not that would be a slap in the face TP wise. D:

But yeah more DPS utility wouldn't hurt. :/

---

Lol, "Hey bro, heard you were running low on TP... here's 15% more attack speed of xx time. Good luck!"

Would be pretty funny actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Idk man, I'm high and 10% sounded OP lol Never going happen though unless the people that cross class it doesnt get the + damage.

---

Well they could just make it part of the traited version that only monks have. That is if they were to do something like that.

10% damage up on a 3 min cd doesn't sound OP. I mean hell NiN get that on a min cd...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonus

Lol, "Hey bro, heard you were running low on TP... here's 15% more attack speed of xx time. Good luck!"

Would be pretty funny actually.

---

that sounds like one of the healers in my raid group, just got ast to 60 and been messing with it in alexander, every so often i get an arrow card on me.. and when its potency enhanced.... lets just say having a gcd of 1.66 seconds is amazing and scary.

Holy shit this is why I don't like visiting the official forums, don't know why I keep coming back.

Alright, yes, MNK is underpowered right now, but it's not in a bad position. We're simply lacking offensive utility. We are the safety melee right now, the DK and 20% extra healing is no joke. And the Dark Knight's Delirium argument has no place here, if your group has a DRK in it then you're obviously not doing or planning to do bleeding edge content. Dark Knight is inferior to the other two tank jobs. That's the end of story. Our Dragon Kick will be valuable depending on the fight's mechanics.

To make MNK better, all you'd need to do is two adjustments.

1. Granting a Med stack when refreshing/gaining GL, allowing us greater use of FC therefore solving our tiny bit lower DPS problem, this would also give PB a option to be a offensive CD.

2. Make MCH's damage be blunt, creating utility, I don't even know why they didn't do this in the first place.

Regarding our new abilities?

You can't complain about Elixir Field, the move is awesome.

Form Shift is a LIFE SAVER. There is not a single fight typically where I don't use it.

Tornado Kick is perfect the way it is right now, it is INTENDED to be situational. There is no need to increase it's potency or else it will infringe into our normal rotation creating the need to use it on CD, which is just stupid.

Purification is whatever, yet to use it much except A2.

MNK is still alright this patch, here's screenshot of some DPS from the leaderboards of Elysium showing the comparison between the melee DPS.

http://imgur.com/PWiuaS,aE0is#0

Keep in mind that no one is even trying in Alex right now, hell the top MNK in the FC hasn't even bothered submitting parses for Normal Mode.

There's a lot more dumb things said in this thread (except Hak you ok) that I could address but really don't feel like taking a swim through that shit.

I'm still annoyed by the fact that pretty much everything new for MNK is about downtime, and I think this could be an opportunity to change that(doubt it though). If you somehow got Chakra stacks every X seconds(or after certain amount of weaponskills used etc), you would obviously output more DPS, and you would still get to use Meditation during downtime like now.

They wouldn't have to decrease the potency of Forbidden Chakra like we thought before, since we're behind on DPS anyways.

Purification would actually make more sense too, since it's when there's little downtime that you really need TP...

Some more utility like have been mentioned, would be nice, but this is much more important IMO.

EDIT: Also... yeah, those Elysium leaderboard numbers can't be them trying too hard. I've gotten higher than those without using pots, and I'm usually a fair bit behind those guys. I expect I'll fall behind again for Savage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nocturcity

Keep in mind that no one is even trying in Alex right now, hell the top MNK in the FC hasn't even bothered submitting parses for Normal Mode.

---

i'll be perfectly honest, im rather disappointed by your monks, and dragoons arnt doing much better, im guessing this is just from the not trying but even so...

im curious though, who would you consider the top monk?

I wouldn't say Lucrezia's Monk kinda sucks. His rotation (opener) was probably the best one I've seen in 2.0 Other than that I don't know anything about DnT monks, the only Monk I think I know from DnT is Odowola (Parden the spelling) and I'm pretty sure he switched to back to Dragoon before HW dropped too. Though hes a better Monk than me too lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

i'll be perfectly honest, im rather disappointed by your monks, and dragoons arnt doing much better, im guessing this is just from the not trying but even so...

im curious though, who would you consider the top monk?

---

Most of us consider Chyea the top MNK.

And yeah I can't really speak for the others but most of the parses submitted are just for farming runs, no one bothers using pots/food usually, when Savage drops is when I expect things to get competitive. Around that time the leaderboards might be public too.

I'm the top monk.... Or atleast I think so :D

+1 Hak Matic

Is it possible for a monk to catch a good dragoon in dps right now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brill_

Is it possible for a monk to catch a good dragoon in dps right now?

---

Training Dummy: errr, I don't think so

Raid: Without a doubt they can pass a good DRG in dps. Monks no longer suffer the hardest from down time, in fact in terms of melee dps I believe DRGs now suffer the most from down time (BotD problems). If a Monk uses their Form Shift correctly and Chakra well they should be top dps in any fight with a couple of untargetable periods or boss invincibility... or at least thats what i've been noticing with my static DRG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nocturcity

Regarding our new abilities?

You can't complain about Elixir Field, the move is awesome.

Form Shift is a LIFE SAVER. There is not a single fight typically where I don't use it.

Tornado Kick is perfect the way it is right now, it is INTENDED to be situational. There is no need to increase it's potency or else it will infringe into our normal rotation creating the need to use it on CD, which is just stupid.

Purification is whatever, yet to use it much except A2.

MNK is still alright this patch, here's screenshot of some DPS from the leaderboards of Elysium showing the comparison between the melee DPS.

http://imgur.com/PWiuaS,aE0is#0

Keep in mind that no one is even trying in Alex right now, hell the top MNK in the FC hasn't even bothered submitting parses for Normal Mode.

There's a lot more dumb things said in this thread (except Hak you ok) that I could address but really don't feel like taking a swim through that shit.

---

I'm not complaining about the new abilities. Like you said, Elixir Field and Form Shift are awesome. But let's be honest : Why do you think they added Form Shift ?
Its' pretty simple, if they didn't, 90% of the 3.X would have fights like T6-T11 (took a break here so don't know about T12/T13) where the Boss is basically just a dummy (except T9). With Form Shift, they can now safely add other mechanics without handicapping Monks as much as before. So, if we look at it that way then it's obvious that this or something similar had to be added.
Although you say Monks are still alright and I do agree with you, it's not what I'm pointing at here. Let's pretend Monks are support Melee, Dragoon the offensiv one and NIN are a mix of them. What exclusiv utilities (for Melee) do they got since their DPS are almost equivalent with a slight advantage for DRG ?

- Dragoon :
Piercing debuff increasing his own, Bard and Machinist DPS (Part of rotation)
15% Crit increase for group during 20s (Recast 180s)

-Ninja :
Slashing debuff increasing his own and tank's DPS, same as WAR debuff. If applied by WAR, NIN DPS is increased since he can skip that for a stronger skill (Part of rotation)
10s single target physical damage increase (Recast 60s)
TP Regen on one party member (Recast 180s)
20s aggro reduction on party member (Recast 180s)
15s aggro increase on party member (Recast 120s)

- Monk
20% group heal increased during 15s (Recast 120s)
Blunt debuff increasing only his own DPS and applying 10% INT debuff on target (Part of rotation). Not equal to DRK debuff, since he doesn't apply blunt debuff. So DRK doesn't increase MNK DPS. DRK makes only MNK useless in same group

Now we have the facts, let's put ourself in other job's PoV and except for healers I think everybody would prefer playing with a DRG or NIN, unless it's another MNK and that's the actual problem I'm seeing here, not the DPS.

I don't think a lot of monks are saying we are in a bad position. More are saying we could be in a better position.

Where should I throw a pot in this PB opener?:

tod>PB>snap(IR)>snap(b4b)>twin(steel)>demo(howling)>DK(elixir)>boot(FC if the fight doesn't need purification)>true>snap

I'm kind of fond of this opener. It allows to get my necessary buffs up to accommodate my filler weaponskills.

@ Phire, you should move your Buffs back a few GCDs to maximize their potency, also you shouldn't open with Touch of Death.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phireblast

Where should I throw a pot in this PB opener?:

tod>PB>snap(IR)>snap(b4b)>twin(steel)>demo(howling)>DK(elixir)>boot(FC if the fight doesn't need purification)>true>snap

I'm kind of fond of this opener. It allows to get my necessary buffs up to accommodate my filler weaponskills.

---

Always open with Demolish! Your first priority is to get your GL3 up thats our bread and butter there is no place for GCDs that don't get you GL stacks in a good opener.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monchkinz

Monk 3.0 has few changes in rotation from 2.x

Since demolish has been changed it is now impossible to do the old opener unless we get more skill speed. GL being applied at the initial hit of demolish loses 2secs of GL due to the animation lock. I've experimented on different rotations and in essence I actually made the same rotation with the people in the official forums.

stack 5 meditation

Form shift to coeurl form-> shoulder tackle -> demolish -> perfect balance -> snap punch -> blood for blood -> snap punch -> internal release -> dragon kick -> steel

peak -> twin snakes -> howling fist -> snap punch -> (perfect balance drops here) elixir field -> touch of death -> Forbidden chakra -> boot shine -> true strike ->

demolish -> Fracture OR Dragon kick (Blood for blood drops) -> continue with normal rotation.

---

This is a good opener, it's just the old one with the new skills taken into it and was posted on the First Page.
Though I would actually swap Elixir Field with Steel Peak as it's our highest potency offGCD might aswell use it as early as possible with all buffs up. (Unless you know there will be adds appearing shortly.)
Unless someone can enlighten me why Steel Peak should be used earlier in the opener.

If you wanna use a Pot in your opener you go:

Form shift to coeurl form-> shoulder tackle -> demolish -> perfect balance -> snap punch -> blood for blood -> snap punch -> internal release -> dragon kick -> Pot -> twin snakes -> Elixir Field -> snap punch -> (perfect balance drops here) Howling Fists -> touch of death -> Steel Peak -> boot shine -> Forbidden Chakra -> true strike -> demolish -> Dragon kick (Blood for blood drops) -> continue with normal rotation.

Thats the opener I use.

I tried that opener just now, and ended with 1081 without any external buffs(party, food etc). I'm not sure if that's good or bad. I'm i182 with the doman weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phireblast

I tried that opener just now, and ended with 1081 without any external buffs(party, food etc). I'm not sure if that's good or bad. I'm i182 with the doman weapon.

---

I'd say thats above average but there's still room for improvement, well there always is. :P
Concidering you're still missing your Hive weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ossom

I wouldn't say Lucrezia's Monk kinda sucks. His rotation (opener) was probably the best one I've seen in 2.0 Other than that I don't know anything about DnT monks, the only Monk I think I know from DnT is Odowola (Parden the spelling) and I'm pretty sure he switched to back to Dragoon before HW dropped too. Though hes a better Monk than me too lol

---

i only said the lucrezia monk sucked from a progression group standpoint, as far as typical monks go, hes still way up there, but if you look at the monks dps in that T10 where the blm did 700 dps, you'll notice is extremely low compared to some other parses around, i even remember hak mentioning it at the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

i only said the lucrezia monk sucked from a progression group standpoint, as far as typical monks go, hes still way up there, but if you look at the monks dps in that T10 where the blm did 700 dps, you'll notice is extremely low compared to some other parses around, i even remember hak mentioning it at the time.

---

I don't think that was the same monk they use for their world progression group firstly and you could go as far as saying the same for the other 2 dps that weren't the blm if you are going to base the numbers purely off the highest possible cherry picked parses that people have posted.

Also since you mentioned that you thought DnT's monks were way better i would point out in the old monk thread Odowla made a post a short time before echo was added to final coil that he had finally broken 600 on T11 and was the only monk in DnT to do so, something which pretty much all "top tier" monks were consistently hitting every week way before he made that post.
And honestly I'm not trying to take anything away from Odowla because although I've never played with him I'm sure hes a great player but I'm just making the point that taking a few parses and comparing them without actual context is extremely stupid.

What i do know is their main progression monk has cleared the last few tiers of content faster than any other monk in the game and that included Bahamut which was basically just a dps check.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreides

This is a good opener, it's just the old one with the new skills taken into it and was posted on the First Page.
Though I would actually swap Elixir Field with Steel Peak as it's our highest potency offGCD might aswell use it as early as possible with all buffs up. (Unless you know there will be adds appearing shortly.)
Unless someone can enlighten me why Steel Peak should be used earlier in the opener.

---

No real reason. Its just my muscle memory from 2.0. Either way Elixir field will still get benefit from bfb and ir. Its up to situation like you say. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penguin

I'm just making the point that taking a few parses and comparing them without actual context is extremely stupid.

---

This is an important point, and is often ignored by many with just raw comparisons of numbers. So many factors to consider outside just a raw number at the end of a fight. Group comp, fight strat, etc can all greatly change the maximum damage potential for that scenario.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penguin

I don't think that was the same monk they use for their world progression group firstly and you could go as far as saying the same for the other 2 dps that weren't the blm if you are going to base the numbers purely off the highest possible cherry picked parses that people have posted.

---

hmm, you could be right that it wasnt the same monk they use for progression, but either way, they were far to low to be just considered a bad run, need to be a lot more consistent for top tier, so my point still stands

Double monk or SCH/AST/NIN all affect parses too much to just throw a number out there and have it be relevant.


I'm the only monk in my FC so the former will never help my dps. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Humorless

Double monk or SCH/AST/NIN all affect parses too much to just throw a number out there and have it be relevant.


I'm the only monk in my FC so the former will never help my dps. :(

---

sch is pretty much a given, since the alternative is an AST in nocturnal stance and thats simply not gonna happen, but either way they all affect dps by about the same, that includes double monk, its really not as strong as people seem to think it is.
even drg affects your dps now, the only dps that wont affect it now is bard

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

that includes double monk, its really not as strong as people seem to think it is.

---

It's at least 150 extra potency(more now since crit raises bootshine's damage now) every 9 attacks or what amounts to ~17 extra potency per attack, it's exactly as strong as people think it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMax1087

snip

---

crits dont double damage, they only add 50%, so its 75 potency just from that.
after that, you have to realize dragon kick can crit to, so its not a full 75 potency increase, its closer to 65 (its actually less but just for you i'll round up)
now then, its only going to make a difference once every 7 skills, we per skill we get an average potency increase of 9.29

to give you a reasonable sense of just how small that potency is, i'll tell you my dragon kicks average at around 1000 damage without crits (i185)

the damage boost from swapping a dragon kick out for bootshine will take place once every 15 seconds if you have no skill speed
the boost in damage is 400 damage assuming a 20% crit rate
400 divide by our time (15) comes out to be 27 dps

27 whole dps.. wow... yeah thats some game breaking damage there.

now then, if you want to prove me wrong or say everyone thinks a second monk really is just 27 dps, then go right ahead.

edit: corrected to once every 7 skills

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

sch is pretty much a given, since the alternative is an AST in nocturnal stance and thats simply not gonna happen, but either way they all affect dps by about the same, that includes double monk, its really not as strong as people seem to think it is.
even drg affects your dps now, the only dps that wont affect it now is bard

---

When you're trying to push your dps from 1100 to 1200+ in A1 it matters a lot.


MCH is hardly worth mentioning compared to other damage boosts. 5% for 10s on 120s cooldown if hypercharge is used on cooldown.


Basically if the average team has MNK/melee/caster/ranged, the most frequent will be MNK/DRG/caster/BRD. NIN or MNK will do more for your DPS than DRG due to BL cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

hmm, you could be right that it wasnt the same monk they use for progression, but either way, they were far to low to be just considered a bad run, need to be a lot more consistent for top tier, so my point still stands

---

Yea the main monk that got world first isn't in Lucrezia anymore. Hasn't been for some months now. Moved to Carbuncle and started his own FC. Recently moved to another server and joined an FC ( I forget the name of it). Spoke with him when he visited Gilgamesh one morning(was the most random stuff when I recognized the name lol). This was before Elysium formed, as he noted how they payed attention to DnT and CL. He won't be doing world progression this time around b/c of real life and work. But yea the world first monk is pretty beastly. Rialmer Laurens is his char name. The best melee in Lucrezia last I checked were Lito Nyan(Currently has a name like Bahamut clws plz (drg)), Chloro Cradle(the nin), and him before he left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Humorless

When you're trying to push your dps from 1100 to 1200+ in A1 it matters a lot.


MCH is hardly worth mentioning compared to other damage boosts. 5% for 10s on 120s cooldown if hypercharge is used on cooldown.


Basically if the average team has MNK/melee/caster/ranged, the most frequent will be MNK/DRG/caster/BRD. NIN or MNK will do more for your DPS than DRG due to BL cooldown.

---

you do realize the debuff from mch lasts closer to 20s right? it gets constantly reapplied throughout the duration of hypercharge.
you are correct though battle litany is definitely the lesser of the damage buffs we can get from other classes, but its not nothing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

... the damage boost from swapping a dragon kick out for bootshine will take place once every 15 seconds if you have no skill speed
the boost in damage is 400 damage assuming a 20% crit rate 400 divide by our time (15) comes out to be 27 dps...

---

as sound as the math is, there's still assumption of DK will crit, whereas BS will always crit (in position).
so the potency gain every 7th skill can range between 0 (if DK crits) to 75 potency (if DK doesn't crit, perhaps more with crit dmg boost), should be more than 27dps I would think.

edit: sorry Zamii, I'm an idiot. for some reason, I thought BS is 225 potency without crit. fixed above

@Zamii your numbers are wrong. Now I'm not saying your other points are wrong as Idk how powerful a Mnk/Mnk grouping would be right now, just your numbers are a little off.

Bootshine does 150 * 1.5 (minimum now) or 225 w/o GL. Factor in GL and it's now 285.75

Dragon Kick is 150 w/o GL or 190.5 w/ GL. So theres 95.25 More potency from a Bootshine over a Dragon Kick.

So if you do dragon kick once every 7 Skills, thats 13.6 more Potency per skill if DK never crits.

To put that in perspective, thats like having a free GL3 Tornado Kick/Forbidden Chakra every Minute or so of the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by w153m4n

there's still assumption of DK will crit, whereas BS will always crit (in position).
...
should be more than 27dps I would think.

---

since its a chance to crit, you should always work with the average value, which in this case would be 1.1k for dragon kick @ 20% crit rate
as to the dps increase, this was exactly why i did the math on the thread rather than just post the final 27 dps increase, if you can find something wrong with my math however your more than welcome to correct me on it, but it stands true to that increase when i've applied it in actual applications in game also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ossom

snip

---

i wasnt factoring the greased lightning damage buff or twin snakes buff etc etc, because they both affect the potency in the same way, i did however factor those buffs into the in practice damage figures, so the dps gain is the same

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

snip

---

The reason I said 150 potency was because you have to factor in replacing 2 dragon kicks rather than one, as dragon kick should always be used before bootshine. Accounting for that in your calculations would raise the dps by a non insignificant 54 dps. Unfortunately for my argument neither of our ways would be the correct way to do it. It would be much cleaner to account for 2 dragon kicks and 2 bootshines. That said, the 39 dps youd gain doing that, while definitely not gamebreaking(and im not sure how you came up with that from what I said) is absolutely nothing to scoff at. If im doing 1000 dps in a fight, id love to get an extra free 4% dps. Also, none of this takes other buffs into account. 4 guaranteed crit bootshines during blood for blood, 3 during a potion, 3-6 during balance, or 2 during trick attack push any differences even higher

What's the general opinion of finishing a parse with TK?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phireblast

What's the general opinion of finishing a parse with TK?

---

If your about to end a parse on a dummy or boss fight then TK should always be use. Its our highest potency skill and the GL3 stacks are gonna go to waste anyways so its not like your padding the meters.