BRD/MCH look here

Ok question time. Is this only for mch and brd or others jobs was also mention. 2nd since the increase in dmg to 30% for WM and GB, does this validate for for staying under WM and GB full time?

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

Ok question time. Is this only for mch and brd or others jobs was also mention. 2nd since the increase in dmg to 30% for WM and GB, does this validate for for staying under WM and GB full time?

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Who knows at this point, and with Parsers being kinda buggy as I am being told. It will be hard to swim through the bs until we find the truth.

I really don't understand why SE thought it would be a good idea to make MCH a dps support class. MCH should have been a pure dps job that competed against BLM and SMN for that slot in a raid.

The bottom line is MCH and BRD are dps. There is no such thing as a dps support class because there is no dps support slot in df. All arguments that reflect that idea are mute points due to the fact that there is no support dps slot in DF and most dps have some serious utilities with no penalties.

The game play with GB on is not fun. Granted there is such a thing as a well aimed shot but at the same time the dps does not reflect the damage GB should be doing. Say what you will but BRD and MCH needs some adjustments and buffs. Honestly BRD and MCH needs a weapon damage increase by +4 and the cast time reduced and if people think that will make it go back to the way it was in 2.0 then you are wrong. Melee will always out damage brd and mch due to the utilities it brings to the raids.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Who knows at this point, and with Parsers being kinda buggy as I am being told. It will be hard to swim through the bs until we find the truth.

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It would be nice if SE would just come out and provide us with a parser. Have it be an interface tool that can be turned on and off, then we won't even have problems with is X dps showing up correctly on the parser.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

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I think we need time right now. We need numbers, and we need to figure out the math since a lot of stats seem to have changed some. Right now we are in the..I don't know area and that is scary for many people.

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Originally Posted by Torunya

Wait, are you people still complaining after we get a flat out 10% increase in damage? Guys, seriously?

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It's not a "flat out 10% increase."
It also does not solve the problem of people who don't want to use a caster stance at all having the majority of their 50-60 abilities being tied to the caster stance, making the expansion less enjoyable for them than other jobs. I am not one of those people, but I sympathize, especially considering how much I hate the MNK changes and how they literally make the job less enjoyable.

I err cant take the barrel off untill the recast has finished... I hope this is a bug.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Where the heck did this support theory even come from? Just because of powerful support songs? So what? How about all the support that other dps classes give also? That people can argue they add just as much as our songs. Yet, they don't think of themselves as support. Until a dev comes out and says. This is a support class, nothing you say matters on the subject. You are a dps class not support.

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"Concerning the machinist, his role is similar to the bard, it's a support for the other members of the team. So, compared to other pure DPS jobs like monk or ninja, of course its DPS will be lower since they have different roles. With the upcoming release of Alexander next week, we'll be very happy to receive feedback from the players."


^from one of the dev's themselves in case you missed it...

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Originally Posted by xzeroikgre

"Concerning the machinist, his role is similar to the bard, it's a support for the other members of the team. So, compared to other pure DPS jobs like monk or ninja, of course its DPS will be lower since they have different roles. With the upcoming release of Alexander next week, we'll be very happy to receive feedback from the players."


^from one of the dev's themselves in case you missed it...

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Thank you, that is all I was asking for. Since I was told developers don't see bard as support. They are just pure dps. I am glad at least someone showed me something. As I was even searching for it. I guess I suck at finding things.

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Originally Posted by xzeroikgre

"Concerning the machinist, his role is similar to the bard, it's a support for the other members of the team. So, compared to other pure DPS jobs like monk or ninja, of course its DPS will be lower since they have different roles. With the upcoming release of Alexander next week, we'll be very happy to receive feedback from the players."


^from one of the dev's themselves in case you missed it...

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He hasn't been playing for very long, missed a lot of things.

"Concerning the machinist, his role is similar to the bard, it's a support for the other members of the team. So, compared to other pure DPS jobs like monk or ninja, of course its DPS will be lower since they have different roles. With the upcoming release of Alexander next week, we'll be very happy to receive feedback from the players."


That's nice and all but you can do everything in the game without them. Our guild summoner has used his revive more than our bards ever needed to use tp/mp recovery.

So shouldn't the summoners revive mean they get support so should be as weak as us?

The only time healers run out of mp is with reviving so getting the summoner to do it instead is actually better at giving healers more potential mp than the archers mp song itself.

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Originally Posted by Rivez

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That is what I am thinking. Like this makes no sense at all. No wonder people are confused, I would argue that +crit buffs, and heck even ninja giving tp to people without hurting their own dps. (mind you ninja thing is a lot weaker.) is support in its nature.


Also, about the comment "he is new here he does not know" You know most of the bards I talked to felt the same way as I did? So it has nothing to do with being "new" as it does trying to figure out wtf the devs are thinking. As it feels like with class changes, and balance the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. The players don't know that is for sure.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Thank you, that is all I was asking for. Since I was told developers don't see bard as support. They are just pure dps. I am glad at least someone showed me something. As I was even searching for it. I guess I suck at finding things.

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No problem, I don't mind being a support, is why I picked bard as my main class. Numbers of dps don't really matter to me much at all in the grand scheme of things, I just feel the WM play style is a pretty jarring change after spending so long playing the game without it. It's gonna take time to adjust to it is all, still would have rather preferred another utility song for the party versus WM but it's whateves, still not gonna give up my main no matter how this roller coaster ends, ><.

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Originally Posted by xzeroikgre

No problem, I don't mind being a support, is why I picked bard as my main class. Numbers of dps don't really matter to me much at all in the grand scheme of things, I just feel the WM play style is a pretty jarring change after spending so long playing the game without it. It's gonna take time to adjust to it is all, still would have rather preferred another utility song for the party versus WM but it's whateves, still not gonna give up my main no matter how this roller coaster ends, ><.

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I like the thought of support that is why I picked it also. The play style is fun, and when I give groups mana or TP i feel that that extra tp andmana i give overall adds to my own dps. I just thought that dps matters because that is what we bring as a class as well. The times we don't need to play our songs, we should be doing great dps. Thanks again for showing me some proof, as people keep saying all sorts of things.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

It's not a "flat out 10% increase."
It also does not solve the problem of people who don't want to use a caster stance at all having the majority of their 50-60 abilities being tied to the caster stance, making the expansion less enjoyable for them than other jobs. I am not one of those people, but I sympathize, especially considering how much I hate the MNK changes and how they literally make the job less enjoyable.

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If anyone is playing Machinist and don't like the job, then why in the world are they not playing another job? There are different jobs because of this reason, is it not? I also want to emphasize that there is a huge difference between "not liking something" and "being bad at something", as my main concern for MCH/BRD is that the majority of complaints rise from players who don't play the job correctly.

Not a jab at anyone, it's just what I'm worried about since I really like Machinist at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Rivez

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Unless you don't have a smn in your group. Or if the heals was dps'ing and the tank unexpectedly dies(had this happen before where i had to kite adds and ballad the pld and heals to get both their mp's up after the pld face planted to stop a wipe). Is Tp/Mp song necessary? No, but on the occasions you do need it, it is the deciding factor on whether or not your group will wipe. There's more to bard than just how much dps you can do, knowing when to use songs, how to kite things, target locking while dodging so you don't lose AA's, snap aggro'ing adds off a healer, and dealing with extra mechanics cause you are the "mobile" dps is just some of the stuff that separates a good bard from a "mash all the buttons while running in circles" bard.

Lets be honest how often do BRD's use there TP/MP songs? You don't even need the songs in 90+% of all the content in the game. And when they do use the songs they get a 15% decrease in damage. Shouldn't that be enough? Why do the devs feel they must also have a -7 reduction in weapon damage (compared to melee's weapon damage)? It's like BRDs and MCHs are being punished 100% of the time for simply playing the job. You don't need the songs for solo content and dungeons. You only need to use the songs 5% to 10% of the time in raids and that's only if they are long dragged out fights and/or the healers are constantly raising people.

Instead they should make it to where if you want comparable damage to BLM and SMN you use GB/WM and in doing so you can not use your songs. If you need to use the songs then you lose GB/WM and also take a 15% reduction on damage. That's a total of 45% in damage loss when you go into support mode. I think that would be fare enough.

ITT: People who do heavily nerfed content and then wonder why they don't need to use BRD songs.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

ITT: People who do heavily nerfed content and then wonder why they don't need to use BRD songs.

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Use TP/MP songs often myself. Foe not much(since no casters - though I do support the sch in dpsing here and there).

You know what really annoys me? casters get swift cast, mch gets rapid fire... bards get... nothing to mitigate a move and cast situation - unless we keep hold of our procs/ogcds all the time - which would be a net loss one way or another. I'm basically reliant on fey wind to be able to move and cast close to effectively - and even that can mess up an iron jaws recast timer - also did anyone notice that for saving 100 tp we lose 40 potency or so(reapply both wind and venom each has an upfront potency). Though it does give you leway to reapply dots, pop cds and then clip the dots with the new ones.

Minuet buff still left the main gripe. Bard becoming a bowmage. Thanks a lot se, you took the enjoyment out of class that i used 2 years through coils and savage.

lowest dps with mobility and was good enough for me, not happy with lowest dps and rooted to the ground.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Use TP/MP songs often myself. Foe not much(since no casters - though I do support the sch in dpsing here and there).

You know what really annoys me? casters get swift cast, mch gets rapid fire... bards get... nothing to mitigate a move and cast situation - unless we keep hold of our procs/ogcds all the time - which would be a net loss one way or another. I'm basically reliant on fey wind to be able to move and cast close to effectively - and even that can mess up an iron jaws recast timer - also did anyone notice that for saving 100 tp we lose 40 potency or so(reapply both wind and venom each has an upfront potency). Though it does give you leway to reapply dots, pop cds and then clip the dots with the new ones.

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Perhaps if SE get their act together the pointless level 58 song will be replaced with something similar

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Use TP/MP songs often myself. Foe not much(since no casters - though I do support the sch in dpsing here and there).

You know what really annoys me? casters get swift cast, mch gets rapid fire... bards get... nothing to mitigate a move and cast situation - unless we keep hold of our procs/ogcds all the time - which would be a net loss one way or another. I'm basically reliant on fey wind to be able to move and cast close to effectively - and even that can mess up an iron jaws recast timer - also did anyone notice that for saving 100 tp we lose 40 potency or so(reapply both wind and venom each has an upfront potency). Though it does give you leway to reapply dots, pop cds and then clip the dots with the new ones.

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Not sure, but isn't that what Barrage does now?

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Not sure, but isn't that what Barrage does now?

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No barrage just triples the next weaponskil - aka use it with empy arrow to get triple the damage though no crits.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

also did anyone notice that for saving 100 tp we lose 40 potency or so(reapply both wind and venom each has an upfront potency). Though it does give you leway to reapply dots, pop cds and then clip the dots with the new ones.

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This is inaccurate

You're saving 40 tp and gaining 90 potency. The difference is that you're doing an extra heavyshot instead of the second dot application so instead of wb+vb (160 tp total and 160 potency total) its ij+hs (120 tp total and 250 potency total).

Assuming of course you're not forced to clip your dots a gcd early because ogcd spam forced you to delay your gcd because bard +minuet is a shitty broken class.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

No barrage just triples the next weaponskil - aka use it with empy arrow to get triple the damage though no crits.

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not even triple the next weapon skill, its the next weaponskill + 2 extra, you would have already done the next weapon skill so you cant actually count that as damage from barrage. Plus theres the nifty little bonus that the nocrit effect of barrage applies to the original weaponskill reducing the damage you would have done had you notbarraged! The actual damage gained from barrage is approximately 1.8x the potency of the weaponskill you're barraging.

Lots of bards in here forgetting just how important their abilities are in extended, difficult encounters.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

not even triple the next weapon skill, its the next weaponskill + 2 extra, y... The actual damage gained from barrage is approximately 1.8x the potency of the weaponskill you're barraging.

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Sorry you've lost me there a bit - but trying to understand.

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Multiplies the number of non-critical strikes for a single-target weaponskill by 3. Additional effects added only once.

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The way I understand it is that the weaponskill will not crit and cause 3x normal strikes - so if you hit let's say EA with it... ~1k and then 2 more with ~1k each for ~3k total. I see a straight up 3x the inital damage. Or am I thinking wrong(I'm not a theorycrafter).

And thank you for pointing out the different combo potential with IJ - I was only comparing same skills.

If you think about it, wouldn't an overall damage increase and individual lowered potencies of skills even out to the same thing, roughly? I'm happy for the instant stance casts. Lowered potencies with an overall damage increase shouldn't even be a huge hit to performance. Come one people, I think some of us are just looking for reasons to be salty now. . .

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Lots of bards in here forgetting just how important their abilities are in extended, difficult encounters.

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Hehe. I'm well aware just how important our ablities are. I have a WHM on the team that loves me to death because I keep an eye out for the healers MP/shroud/assize/aetherflow and sing as needed. The melee and tanks like me as well since I'll sing TP at just about the right time. Only mages really hate me since I forget foe since we don't have any on the team - though if need be I do support the SCH DPS with it.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

SNip .

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You do realize that you do not need to use those songs in 90+% of all the content in the game. You do not need it while soloing and while in dungeons. You use it about 5% of the time in long dragged out fights which only makes up about 5% of all content in the game. I can see BRDs and MCH taking a 15% damage decrease when in support mode. Shouldn't that be enough? Why should we get punished 100% of the time when we only need those skills 5% of the time? What they should do instead is not only do you take a 15% decrease in damage but also make it to where you can not use GB and WM while in support mode. That would be a 45% total loss in damage while in support mode. The rest of time BRDs and MCH should be doing comparable damage to BLM.

First and Foremost BRDs and MCH are dps. We que up as dps and we take up a dps slot in dungeons and raids. We should be treated as a dps bc there is no slot for SUPPORT DPS.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

So in other words, for people who hate the play style of caster bard. We get a nice big middle finger? Whatever.

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IMO should have been expecting this. It was pretty obvious they weren't going to remove the skill - however, at least now you can actually use it decently/get a dps boost from it whereas before it was a tradeoff for nothing.

So lets do some math. The buff to GB makes our overall damage increase, along with Increased Action Damage II, 56%, up from 44%.

Split Shot is now equal to 218.4 potency without ammo, 249.6 with. Up from 201.6 and 230.4.

Slug Shot is now equal to 280.8 potency without ammo, 312 with. Up from 259.2 and 288.

Cleaner Shot is now equal to 312 potency without ammo, 343.4 with. Up from 288 and 316.8.

Gauss Round loses about 7.2 potency overall. 280.8 now as opposed to 288.

Ricochet is where we get hurt-- we go from 144 + 432 potency= 576 down to 156 + 312= 468, which is actually a 108 potency drop.

With the nerfs to GR and Richochet, we're looking at a loss of 129.6 potency a minute. We gain 69.8 potency over the course of a Reload/QR combo (6 attacks). Without Rapid Fire, that's approximately 15 seconds. With one QR in the middle, that adds another 19.2. And even if we get no procs for the rest of the time (which is about 17 attacks worth) that's 285.6 extra potency combined on all those Split Shots, giving up a total of around 374.6 over the course of a minute. I'd say that's a pretty big gain, even IF we miss a couple casts due to movement. Add in Rapid Fire and you get even more attacks. And that's WITHOUT getting any procs. If we get procs, the damage potential is even higher.

And if you need movement, we can switch as needed. I'd take instant cast with longer cooldown over what we have now any day.

I welcome this change. I wasn't too far behind most dps relatively, and this would definitely give a dps buff to a high-risk/skill:high-reward playstyle, compared to before where it was high-risk/skill:no/less reward

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Originally Posted by Astral145

You do realize that you do not need to use those songs in 90+% of all the content in the game. You do not need it while soloing and while in dungeons. You use it about 5% of the time in long dragged out fights which only makes up about 5% of all content in the game. I can see BRDs and MCH taking a 15% damage decrease when in support mode. Shouldn't that be enough? Why should we get punished 100% of the time when we only need those skills 5% of the time? What they should do instead is not only do you take a 15% decrease in damage but also make it to where you can not use GB and WM while in support mode. That would be a 45% total loss in damage while in support mode. The rest of time BRDs and MCH should be doing comparable damage to BLM.

First and Foremost BRDs and MCH are dps. We que up as dps and we take up a dps slot in dungeons and raids. We should be treated as a dps bc there is no slot for SUPPORT DPS.

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The point of the matter is, it's vital for progression. No one gives a crap about nerfed, low level content. If that was the case, then Warriors can be considered DPS too.

The other point is, the Dev team and YoshiP himself, has labeled them a support class. Since they run the game and choose how the game runs, they are the ones who decide what it is. Cry, scream and shout as much as you want to, but your view is only an opinion. It's not fact. The Devs thoughts on the class however, are fact.

Doesn't look like they aimed to do much other than please the parsejunkies (by giving better averaged peaks and dips). The only true buff seems to be that stance switching is a real thing now, with Minuet/Gauss being a Cleric Stance type deal.

If people who cry about (mostly) pointless moving aren't satisfied with this, then i really dont think they will ever be. Like, you can literally pick and choose when you want to use the stance now, viably. It's no longer a SACRIFICE to pick and choose between the playstyle.

If you have to move, turn minuet off. If you're safe for deeps, turn it on. I'll gladly take a 95 potency hit on sidewinder for that.


Not to mention, our AoE potential just got universally buffed, and it was already crazy. Under Minuet, Rain of Death just went from 120 to 130 potency, Quick Nock from 132 to 143.

Misery from 228 under minuet to 247. Come on guys.

The nerd rage is strong with this group. It's the I must be able to keep up with the other dps crowd argument all over again. You have mobile dps which does not stop when you have to make large movements like every other dps. It's not because you are support it's because you have near 100% dps upkeep which no other job has. That is why your dps is inherently lower.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

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The whole point to GB/WM was to allow BRD and MCH to gain dps. The Devs failed with this new feature. Not only did it drastically change the way brds and mch play but it doesn't even make up for the loss of mobility. Not even close. When you level up mch and brd from 1 to 50 (mch 30 - 50) it has its own unique style of game play. Its smooth and a lot of fun. The minute you hit lvl 52 the game play devolves and is no where near as fun to play. Don't get me wrong I love my blm and main blm since launch but anyone who mains bard or mch did not want to be a caster class. Some like the changes but a lot do not because as I said GB/WM completely changes the unique fundamental game play of brds and mch. No other class in the game got that kind of changes in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

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Not with GB/WM on. The net gain to over all dps with GB/WM is 5% damage increase to dps. The whole point to GB/WM was to allow BRD and MCH to gain dps. The Devs failed with this new feature. Not only did it drastically change the way brds and mch play but it doesn't even make up for the loss of mobility. Not even close.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Not with GB/WM on. The net gain to over all dps with GB/WM is 5% damage increase to dps. The whole point to GB/WM was to allow BRD and MCH to gain dps. The Devs failed with this new feature. Not only did it drastically change the way brds and mch play but it doesn't even make up for the loss of mobility. Not even close.

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How so. You're still the most mobile class in the game. The cast time on Minuet is low enough to dodge AoEs without even having to slide cast between attacks. And if it isn't, you can now stance switch for free.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

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Not as well as you think. The devs even threw in a 15sec cool down on GB when you turn it on or off. So stance dance is out of the question especially during your opener and during buff rotations. And with that cast time it throws a wrench in the way brds use to play. That's like adding cast times to drg and mnk it just wont fit.