Machinist needs serious attention

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

We do have that actually, you get it when you get your Rook. It just doesn't tell you, for some reason. Check your skill list!

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I found it, thanks! Don't know why I didn't see that before.... I checked twice! I'll make sure to put this to good use from now on.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Does your friend remember to always use their Turrets?

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the damage of the turret is also quiet lame... compared to summoner pets..

If i let a turret shoot alone on a monster of the same level as me it does around 48 damage each shot (lv 40).. it almost dies on an ice element of lv 36 (and ice elements do lame damage).. Garuda pet for example can -easily- solo a mob of the same level.


Additional the ruinra instant spam skill of smn seems to make more damage as me as a machinist, who is using special ammonition and dmg boost skills from brd..

the damage of machinist is quiet ridiculous. why should an anytime spam skill like ruinra make more damage as if i was using a skill combo and special skills? makes no sense at all.. since smn is a damage dealer like machinist is..

machinist has no supporting skills like bard.. except tp and mp generation.



if you compare smn to mch ... smn having: instant dd anytime spell that does more damage + instant DoT + 2 cast DoT's + a pet that makes MUCH more damage...

and a machinist: weapon skill chains that do lower damage than ruinra, lame turret damage

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

the damage of the turret is also quiet lame... compared to summoner pets..

If i let a turret shoot alone on a monster of the same level as me it does around 48 damage each shot (lv 40).. it almost dies on an ice element of lv 36.. Garuda pet for example can -easily- solo a mob of the same level.


*snip*

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A DD Job in which the player does horrid damage and has little utility, while also possessing a minion that does terrible damage and dies at the drop of a hat?


As a retired level 75 Dragoon, I'll just be over here in the corner chuckling. Oh Squeenix, will you ever learn..

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Originally Posted by Quixotica

A DD Job in which the player does horrid damage and has little utility, while also possessing a minion that does terrible damage and dies at the drop of a hat?


As a retired level 75 Dragoon, I'll just be over here in the corner chuckling. Oh Squeenix, will you ever learn..

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haha yea.. they completely overdone that.. (we need to nerf mch damage and the pet damage or its going to be overpowered = gimped class)


And having in mind in comparison to for example summoner job...
i mean its a TURRET pet.. it cant move... summoner pets can move.. wouldnt be it some kind of trade off if the turret pet makes more damage or at least the same as a garuda pet as it cant move and has just only one attack skill???!!

Yeah anyway you shake it, it just doesn't make sense for our dmg to be so low and also for the job to be so overly convoluted.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

haha yea.. they completely overdone that.. (we need to nerf mch damage and the pet damage or its going to be overpowered = gimped class)


And having in mind in comparison to for example summoner job...
i mean its a TURRET pet.. it cant move... summoner pets can move.. wouldnt be it some kind of trade off if the turret pet makes more damage or at least the same as a garuda pet as it cant move and has just only one attack skill???!!

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I think it is because Turrets are not meant to be treated as Pets for MCH. At best Turrets are more the DoT conditions of Bard and the Bard's Song abilities when in support mode.

I can hardly call Turrets pets since the only fuction they have is to provide more DoT or TP and MP regen support.

Yeah, but BRD dots don't get turned completely off when they play their songs, just diminished damage, and that damage was lowered from 20% to 15% at that

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Yeah, but BRD dots don't get turned completely off when they play their songs, just diminished damage, and that damage was lowered from 20% to 15% at that

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Well that is what the 20% damage loss is for MCH. In exchange for MP/TP regen the turrets no long attack.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

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Not exaggerating even a little here, but i've taken to using my Turrets to tank mobs for me if i proxy adds at 55 while soloing.
Turrets have the same HP as me, and even with 2 Dragons bashing its face in, my Bishop Turret survives the beating with 40~% HP left after i drag off and kill my initial target plus the 2 extras.

the problem i have with mch is the sustain dmg for long fights

Turning off the turrets or no, MCH dps does not match BRDs and doesn't come close to the other DPS roles in the game. Like I've said before, the easiest fix is to up the potencies across the board. Hopefully they'll get this taken care of before Alexander comes out, but I'm not holding my breath.

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take Alexander to really show people how bad this issue really is. I just did the vault and couldn't down the fire orbs b/c of my dps. The Ninja was practically soloing them.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Turning off the turrets or no, MCH dps does not match BRDs and doesn't come close to the other DPS roles in the game. Like I've said before, the easiest fix is to up the potencies across the board. Hopefully they'll get this taken care of before Alexander comes out, but I'm not holding my breath.

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take Alexander to really show people how bad this issue really is. I just did the vault and couldn't down the fire orbs b/c of my dps. The Ninja was practically soloing them.

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I'm just gonna try and level another job. I've gotten MCH to 60 but I don't see them fixing anything in a week and a half, much less 4.
It's a double whammy of fail with FATES giving such low XP, almost as if they don't want you to level another

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Turning off the turrets or no, MCH dps does not match BRDs and doesn't come close to the other DPS roles in the game. Like I've said before, the easiest fix is to up the potencies across the board. Hopefully they'll get this taken care of before Alexander comes out, but I'm not holding my breath.

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take Alexander to really show people how bad this issue really is. I just did the vault and couldn't down the fire orbs b/c of my dps. The Ninja was practically soloing them.

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I pray that they buff the hell out of machinist before Alex.

Because if they don't we will really see what happens when a class obviously isn't up to par,
-Discluded from raids
-Flamed if they get in somehow
-Blamed if the party wipes/dps checks
-People just get negative if they see them I noticed

I am extremely worried.

This almost makes me glad that I got bored with Machinist already. Saved me a lot of time and effort leveling it up further.

I love using guns, but the slow dps and monotony of waiting on rng procs to do any amount of decent dps really turned me off.

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Originally Posted by Adire

but the slow dps and monotony of waiting on rng procs to do any amount of decent dps really turned me off.

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this is totally how i feel about machinist.. waiting for buffs to make at least some damage..



Machinist is also the least popular/actively played new Heavensward Job..

I just searched on my server Ragnarok at 6 pm it was like:

Dark Knight:
198 players

Astrologue:
134 players

Machinist:
98 players


i think that a dd class is on the last spot... just tells everything.
btw. im glad that a tank job seems to be this popular.

If not all in all machinist seems to be the least played class of all at the moment. if thats not gimped or unbalanced.. i dont know.

I have done 4 dungeons yesterday that we had a Machinist, and I can say that if it's weak to you, then you need to learn how to maximize your DPS, out of the 4, 2 was able to deal enough damage to either pull hate or come close, but the other 2 didn't know how to max out DPS that well, with or without the buffs available.

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

I have done 4 dungeons yesterday that we had a Machinist, and I can say that if it's weak to you, then you need to learn how to maximize your DPS, out of the 4, 2 was able to deal enough damage to either pull hate or come close, but the other 2 didn't know how to max out DPS that well, with or without the buffs available.

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moreover i'd say thats more of a tank problem... than Machinist being the aggro machine of all time..


fact is machinist cant go par with classes like summoner.. machinist isnt a support class its a damage dealer.. and if you do 78-98 dmg with a standard shot in dungeons at lv 40 without special ammunition and buffs up.. then its quiet weak .. yes..
i had shots of around 200 - even 300 (very rare) at lv 42... but having all special ammunitions and buffs up (including from other classes like Heavy strikes from RNG)...

but this is lets say just every 1-2 minutes (regarding cool down timers).. in between without any buffs you doo around 72-98 dmg on dungeon mobs at lv 41.. while a ninja does around 170-240 dmg + DD spell damage... the turret pet makes around 47 dmg (the damage of a DoT i'd say) all i can say.


Dont talk about classes which you havent even played.

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Originally Posted by DarkStaoneDragon

I have done 4 dungeons yesterday that we had a Machinist, and I can say that if it's weak to you, then you need to learn how to maximize your DPS, out of the 4, 2 was able to deal enough damage to either pull hate or come close, but the other 2 didn't know how to max out DPS that well, with or without the buffs available.

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They can pull hate right at the very beginning with Wildfire + Buffs, but after that you'll see it steadily go down down down.

Really, really excellent OP. I hope the devs are listening to this one.

Gotta say, I love, love, LOVE Machinist...in concept. It feels alright for the most part, and thematically, I've never felt more Lominsan! However, the actual damage output underperforms in comparison to other DPS classes, and the procs and buffs require too much attention for too little reward.

My blanket suggestions, just based on what I've seen so far:

- Just make the main three shots a combo. One, then the next, then the next. Use procs to encourage switching it up for a damage bonus to a random shot type to avoid the 1-2-3 over and over.

- Make it so that reloading only buffs the direct-damage shots. It just isn't worth using on the self-buff or DoT.

- Just ratchet up the damage slightly. You could just add some flat numbers and call it a day, or rework the procs to make them a bit punchier.

so i think spilt shot,slug shot,clean shot need a dmg boost and spilt shot need the mana cost reduced to 50 and make hotshot and leadshot on different cds.

Could change how the proc chance works between each shot too

Example-Split Shot 50% to proc Slug Shot
Slug Shot procs, chance to proc Clean Shot changed from 50% to 65%(or 75%)

It isn't hard to pull hate from a bad tank. If you have a good tank, then I can still see a MCH pulling hate, which I have done myself. It has nothing to do with a good maximized dps MCH and more so with the tank, like a previous poster said.

Aggro is not a good indicator of damage. Quelling shot should always be used in conjunction with buffs. Also, if healers can pull aggro off of a tank, then aggro shouldn't be used as a measure.

Listen, I understand how reading forum threads are to a degree, especially when you feel like you have some secret situation that goes 'oh oh oh! I got them! They're wrong!' Trust me, unless I see a MCH at 60 come in here and say, "Yes I'm on par with <insert any dpser here>" with evidence to prove that the dpser isn't bad and a rotation that I can test myself to see if it works, then you don't have that ah ha gotchya situtation.

Basic math and logic shows that MCH is woefully outmatched. Most of us here aren't scratching our heads for nothing. Look at the class, the potencies, the RNG and play one. See for yourself how often a 50% proc actually procs in this game, because i can tell you right now, it certainly is not half the time.

My buffed crits are still hitting for 1000, and in many cases they're lower. The good dps I run with are blowing that crit out of the water - like literally I see the scrolling damage on their basic skills going from 500 to 700 to 800 consistently and non-crit. I'm hitting for 358 to 500 (crit) to 700(proc) to 600 (proc).

Basically, if you think every MCH that has posted here, in reddit, and comments from the game is wrong and you have the secret to unlocking this class, post proof of that and allow us to test it; otherwise, you're going up against an argument that has already been proven.

In all honesty I'd like for there to be a 60 MCH come in with a rotation that has blowed previous ones out of the water. It would save me serious anxiety on taking this class into Alexander with my coil group.

I would like a self heal skill.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

It would save me serious anxiety on taking this class into Alexander with my coil group.

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I'm not sure if you really meant this literally, but no game should give you anxiety. That's not healthy!

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

I'm not sure if you really meant this literally, but no game should give you anxiety. That's not healthy!

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In all honesty I'm just sharing my thoughts and hoping to validate others. I've read so many posts of players just being so disheartned by the results of this job. In either case, my feelings have no importance with this problem. The fact is there's a problem and that alone should be enough for SE to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

and all i lost were weak, barely noticeable auto attacks.

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Simple its a damage downgrade for 2 reasons:
1 WHEN you have to move and its on you cant cast unless you use a certain skill (ALSO no sprint dodging like casters.)
2 THAT little weak auto attacks account for 20% to 25% of your damage.

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Originally Posted by Vinestra

Simple its a damage downgrade for 2 reasons:
1 WHEN you have to move and its on you cant cast unless you use a certain skill (ALSO no sprint dodging like casters.)
2 THAT little weak auto attacks account for 20% to 25% of your damage.

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This. Not sure why people think just because the damage looks small they think it is insignificant damage. Things add up like auto-attack and turrets. It is pretty amazing how SE did not properly test this on neither BRD or MCH. Or maybe it was their intent for neither stances to be used full time. I wish they come out soon and explain the deal with these two jobs. Like I said in a previous post, I cannot believe SE let this go through without proper testing. How can you not know that something like Wanderer's Minstrel does less damage than auto-attack. It is one of the worst oversights I have ever seen.

The more I play MCH the more I feel that something else is at work here. I'm still leaning on the side that both BRD and MCH (especially MCH) was not tested properly, and the weaknesses between these classes are a major oversight that SE has missed. I still also believe that these classes may not have been extensively tested by multiple human players, and perhaps program simulations were taken into consideration over that of human testing. These are all assumptions in the end. If it turns out that the numbers being tested by other players are faulty, or there's a major flaw in the current rotation, I'll gladly take the mud to my face. In the end, I just want this class to be potent and viable. That's not to say I'll give up on it, but just that I'm not trying to fight the fight that this class is bad if it isn't.

Again, every tester I've read seems to have a good handle on the job. This is a huge leap of faith on my part for strangers, but playing it in game, there's still something extremely off. With me in the party, we're barely meeting dps checks in basic dungeons and HM primal fights. Sure, the other dpsers could also be at fault, but when I see a NIN, or BLM, or SMN, or w/e nearly 3 shot mobs, and it's taking me 5 or more shots to take down the same target, it just doesn't feel right.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

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I would gladly take being wrong with a smile on my face. If there is some secret to the jobs I am not aware of, I would sure like SE to come in and say something. I am ilvl179 on MCH and can hold my own decently enough. I will say though, do not take multiple MCH or BRD if you are trying to do a DPS check fight like Bismark EX. Even though I believe I have the job down very well, I just can't see this being the intent of how they are suppose to be played, we just found a work around with it. It is understandable that they most definitely should not be top DPS at all and should be on the lower end. Not to the point however that tanks in DPS stances can catch up to us. At that point, it becomes ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

-snip-

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I've heard the same thing about the DPS checks with more than 1 BRD or MCH. People just can't meet them. I'd like to hear if other people are experiencing this, because maybe it's just a bad party setup, but I feel like with all the number crunching... it's b/c MCH and BRD were dealt an incredibly unfair and weak hand.

There didn't seem to be anything wrong with, "Split Shot" and if anything it was the most annoying skill I've ever heard, anyone spam over and over and over...

Doesn't t anyone know you only really need to tag monsters in FATES and then kill one by one, then tag more...

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I've heard the same thing about the DPS checks with more than 1 BRD or MCH. People just can't meet them. I'd like to hear if other people are experiencing this, because maybe it's just a bad party setup, but I feel like with all the number crunching... it's b/c MCH and BRD were dealt an incredibly unfair and weak hand.

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Last boss, Aery.

Two bards. Granted, I think both were pretty poor players, but considering the fails on the group(not killing Price so we'd lose one of them, adds not dying fast enough so we'd get hit by the enrage) and the fact that I've done that same fight with other dps that were just as bad of players(one bard wasn't using dots, the other sat in MW the ENTIRE RUN) and still killed it...

Yeah.

And once I got past 50, my runs have had fewer and fewer MCH in them. Which is sad. That was the job I was hoping to level next. I don't like what they did to my bard.

According to the ACT website, they recently fixed the parser to properly reflect Machinist damage which is putting them on par with Bards. This job has a high skill cap which maybe leading to the plague of low damaging Machinists.

Source: http://www.eq2flames.com/plugin-disc...plugin-75.html

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Last boss, Aery.

Two bards. Granted, I think both were pretty poor players, but considering the fails on the group(not killing Price so we'd lose one of them, adds not dying fast enough so we'd get hit by the enrage) and the fact that I've done that same fight with other dps that were just as bad of players(one bard wasn't using dots, the other sat in MW the ENTIRE RUN) and still killed it...

Yeah.

And once I got past 50, my runs have had fewer and fewer MCH in them. Which is sad. That was the job I was hoping to level next. I don't like what they did to my bard.

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we did all the HW dungeons (60 included!) with me and a war as dps :rolleyes: , and trust me when i say that war was doing more dmg than me after getting new skills ,fell cleave :o

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

This job has a high skill cap

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This is what it amounts to. People haven't learned to effectively utilize the class yet. On average as a MCH, I'm doing as much in runs as other classes, (killing adds just as quickly, keeping equal amount of HATE on bosses, ect), even if the "raw numbers" of each hit aren't in my favor. Earlier when I was testing out a new skill, (Gauss Round), as well as some other damage within my rotation, I came across a Bard who was also damage testing on some striking dummies. They were two levels below me, but had better gear, (full Augmented Ironworks and Dreadwyrm compared to my i125 stuff I bought from shops and hadn't yet upgraded to the lvl 54 gear), and at first I thought they were putting out more damage than me. Then I realized they had WM on, while my Gauss Barrel was off. Once I threw my barrel back on, I was easily matching or passing them in terms of raw numbers on each hit, even before getting into my combos and using reload. My point is, that with the equivalent skills used, the raw numbers of the basic attacks is very similar. The MCH with low numbers in actual runs are likely people who haven't figured out their rotations properly, or who don't know when to switch from single targets to AoEs, or when to turn Gauss Barrel on or off.....

I vary which actions I use based on the situation, and as I said both here and earlier in this thread, I have no trouble keeping up with other players DPSing, even non-bards. In fact, the only person I've seen who really gave me a run for my money was actually a Bard, and was easily one of the best bards I've seen. Saying "this class sucks because the raw numbers aren't as good" is rather pointless, as in the end, all the raw numbers in the world won't save you if you're bad at your job, and all the hindrances in the world won't stop you if you're good at it. It's just people blaming the numbers when they actually have to work to do good damage, and actually have to try something other than a "use this exact combo in all situations" in order to keep up.....

I love the class but one thing that stands out for me that was said here is: TOO MUCH EFFORT FOR TOO LOW RESULTS. SE, we need the same treatment WAR received.

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Originally Posted by SayuriHime

According to the ACT website, they recently fixed the parser to properly reflect Machinist damage which is putting them on par with Bards. This job has a high skill cap which maybe leading to the plague of low damaging Machinists.

Source: http://www.eq2flames.com/plugin-disc...plugin-75.html

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I found a reddit post that was made 9hrs ago. The damage is on par with BRD, but they're both parsing below tanks atm from what people are recording. Very well, the skill cap could be holding players back on both jobs. I still think both MCHs and BRDs need some sort of buff. We'll see how this progresses within the coming weeks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...t_dps_testing/

Thanks for the responses on MCH and BRDs in parties. I'd love to hear more feedback from players who play with MCHs and BRDs in expansion. If you've played with one, positive or negative, please post on your experience. MCHs and BRDs can post for days, but inevitably it's the 3 or 7 other people playing with you that's going to decide if they want you in the party or not.

What about you, would you invite MCH or BRD? If so, why? If not, why not? What have you experienced from these jobs that make you feel that way?

Also, posters have been commenting, "I've wanted to level this class but now I don't b/c..." I've mostly seen that the class is boring or not viable for endgame for reasons to not play. If your'e interested in MCH why do you want to level MCH? Why don't you?

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

The damage is on par with BRD, but they're both parsing below tanks atm from what people are recording.

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This part is extremely important. "Hitting as hard as bards" is NOT a good thing in their current state. Both jobs should be hitting as hard as BLM when using WM/GB at a minimum, if not slightly harder (because seriously, have you TRIED to play Bard with WM up? It's a bloody nightmare!).

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

This part is extremely important. "Hitting as hard as bards" is NOT a good thing in their current state. Both jobs should be hitting as hard as BLM when using WM/GB at a minimum, if not slightly harder (because seriously, have you TRIED to play Bard with WM up? It's a bloody nightmare!).

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Yeah, I completely agree. The whole point of WM / GB is to do MORE damage. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE right now, we're doing less damage. Like, what? Lol