Tanks thrown out of farms for low DPS?

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Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

Tanks that focus too much on DPS scare me. I've had to heal tanks that want so badly to put out big DPS numbers that they've shed all their vit, parry, and block. In order to keep them alive I have to spam heal them. Then they get angry when I pull hate.

Not to mention, that extra 50-100 tank DPS doesn't make up for missing out on healer DPS.

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idk how you shed block but parry is garbage.

It's not something I generally care for in PUG's. If the tanks and healers can push the DPS as well as doing their job then great, if not as long as it's going down who cares.

Although it's always nice to see a warrior in your group going ham, or paladins switching to sword oath when they can, even nicer when the scholar does too. Sometimes the healers and tanks pushing the DPS means the difference between an extra mechanic or not, say in T13 push the phase after the 2nd earthshaker so you've only had 2 flattens and you just saved a bunch of messing around for another megaflare. Or in the second phase you can skip the 2nd rage and be golden for the Giga/dives.

It's not needed, but it sure as hell helps when you do it, and personally, I like to do the best I can in PUG groups whatever my role, because if everyone did that the end game raiding community would be a place of rainbows and unicorns and it would be glorious.

I think the entire thing comes down to a difference in opinion on farms. The problem with most 'farm parties' are that some people in their do NOT have the fight on farm. They have killed it once or twice, they sort of know the mechanics but they are far from comfortable and cannot adjust to mistakes/things out of the norm.

Farm for me, is when you can walk in with a group who knows what they are doing and just 1 shot it 90% of the time because even if someone makes a mistake, everyone knows how to compensate. Runs don't have to be perfect, if you know the fights well enough you can always recover, especially with echo. Farm for me also means you can push the hell out of your class to do it efficiently. Which means doing things like DPSing on tanks and healers, and the DPS classes actually pulling high DPS, not some sort of 'just enough' mid-range thing that barely scratches the enrage just because of echo.

Buuuut that's going off tangent I guess. Doesn't matter what I consider a farm or not the community dictates if you have cleared it once, you are ready for farming. In the end, you don't HAVE to push your DPS on a tank, but you'll be loved if you do.

I'm curious in what will happen if a random warrior from far distant land, never seen by any healers before suddenly turn off defiance and use holmgang during revelation for better dpsing.. Will the healers heal thru it, or suddenly go panicking and everybody start to blame everybody.. Who's gonna get kicked if the term "1wipe = 1 kick " as well..

Why not just use one tank that's the way my FC does it.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

I'm curious in what will happen if a random warrior from far distant land, never seen by any healers before suddenly turn off defiance and use holmgang during revelation for better dpsing.. Will the healers heal thru it, or suddenly go panicking and everybody start to blame everybody.. Who's gonna get kicked if the term "1wipe = 1 kick " as well..

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That's how I feel too. Whose fault is it if the tank going all out with DPS dies? The tank's or the healer's? It's really only something I'd want to do if I was with friends or a static but not in pickup groups.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

I'm curious in what will happen if a random warrior from far distant land, never seen by any healers before suddenly turn off defiance and use holmgang during revelation for better dpsing.. Will the healers heal thru it, or suddenly go panicking and everybody start to blame everybody.. Who's gonna get kicked if the term "1wipe = 1 kick " as well..

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I think we are throwing things to an extreme here, asking a tank to DPS isn't asking him to throw everything at it and go for high risk high reward moves, just to switch oath/turn off defiance when it's acceptable to do so and push out that little extra.

However if we do go into your scenario then I would say unless the tank let the healers know beforehand, then it's the tanks fault, he should ask the healers if they are ok with it. I always let the healers know which flattens I am going to use HG for so they know they can DPS or do other things while I take no damage, etc.

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

Why not just use one tank that's the way my FC does it.

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Some content makes it impossible to single-tank. Final Coil is a prime example of this, especially T11.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

Some content makes it impossible to single-tank. Final Coil is a prime example of this, especially T11.

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While I have seen 1 tank t12 and t13 (both of which are considered more or less "challenge clears" rather than a better method for farming) I have not seen a 1 tank t11...and not really sure it's even possible considering the mechanics of the fight. T10...never seen a one tank clear, but I think I heard of one once; again though, not really an effective farm method if it is possible. Too much can easily go wrong with one tanking these fights, even when everything seems perfect.

However...solo healing t10-t12 is more viable, still hard, but viable. Solo healing t13 is another "challenge clear", possible but not worth it at all.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

While I have seen 1 tank t12 and t13 (both of which are considered more or less "challenge clears" rather than a better method for farming)

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Solo tank 12 is actually pretty good and not too difficult (especially easy with a PLD but less overall tank damage). Damage is focused solely on one tank so heals aren't split at all. The main difficulty is with the one Blackfire set you'll see, but that can be mitigated by simply spreading out and manually killing them. I'd say if your tank is geared enough then solo tank 12 is viable and not necessarily a "challenge" clear, whereas 13 requires way too much out of everyone to be a viable farm strategy. Then again unless your intent with the solo tank 12 strat is to push 2-3 Bennus, you might as well bring another tank.

Also 11 isn't possible due to Secondary Head, otherwise it would be feasible but a challenge clear. 10 you'd need lucky RNG on HL and extremely powerful AOE on the adds, otherwise I can't really see it being a thing. I guess you could have a DPS tank one of the add sets but then you might as well bring another tank.

Part of what is missing from the discussion is acceptable DPS. Also the fact that most tanks/players have no idea what their DPS is in the first place.

Off the top of my head guidelines. Some of the numbers are lower then optimal but all achievable in PUGs. Like a T10 MT PLD doing 400+ is not uncommon, but anything over 350 and the player understands the fight.

T10 - MT
<250 - Bad
250-350 - Average
350+ - Excellent

T10 - OT
<300 - Bad
300-400 Average
400+ - Excellent

T11 - (cube tank gets a 25dps reduction)
<200 - Bad
200-300 - Average
300+ - Excellent

T12
<200 - Bad
200-300 - Average
300+ Excellent

T13 - MT
<200 - Bad
200-250 - Average
250+ - Excellent

T13 - OT
<250 - Bad
250-350 - Average
350+ - Excellent

Yeah well maintaining optimal DPS in groups as a tank also depends on how freed up the healers are. I mean if you got people dying to megaflares even occasionally or just people taking unnecessary damage then that's a DPS loss for the tank because tank's gotta mitigate with stances due to healers being too busy trying to crutch the raid. PUGs are all unknown players who may not perform necessary enough for the tanks to hit that optimal DPS. The more distracted healers are having to heal / ress unnecessarily the more tanks have to mitigate so I would say to achieve those 'excellent' or even 'average' numbers the tank's performance is at the mercy to the rest of the party's performance.

With that in mind, is judging tank DPS in PUG groups reasonable?

I guess my beef with it is... I don't have a freaking clue what my DPS is.

So yeah... when I get a way on my PS4 to calculate it out then i'll worry about it.

Until then i'll make my own PUGs and get the same results.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

With that in mind, is judging tank DPS in PUG groups reasonable?

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The average numbers are zzzz range. Doing your rotation in the proper stance. Even excellent gives a ton of room to play safely and can be done with average healers. I toned the DPS
numbers way down. As stated in the beginning, Excellent Raiders numbers can reach much higher DPS. (450 MTing T10 for example, OTs doing 400+ in T13 etc)

Bad tanks don't even factor in their healers and they are the majority. I did T10 spam on Thursday night with my raid healers (WHM/SCH) I was on BRD. They can handle both tanks in DPS stances and full STR sets no problem. Our PLD was doing sub 190 and our OT WAR was hovering in the 220 range. (no tank swaps) That's a combined ~410 when on average should have been ~600 and with 2 pro healers should have been closer to 800.

400 DPS difference! Over the course of 7 minutes (average PUG T10 kill) that is 170,000 damage.

Good tanks will know how to maximize their DPS (gear/rotation/stance) with their healers and since most PUGs do more then one run there is time to figure out how to best compliment the party.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Has this always been a thing? I've been seeing party finders like, "No low DPS / this includes tanks!" And my friend was thrown out of a T12 farm as warrior for not DPSing high enough and the guy apparently blacklisted him from his farms over it.

I mean I main white mage so I don't know but it seems kinda I dunno... unreasonable to care about a tank's DPS in a pickup farm group maybe? I mean I never had trouble getting 4 and close to 3 bennus in T12 farms with tanks doing typical tank DPS so I dunno how necessary this is at all.

If I'm going tank I just want to worry about boss / add positioning, cooldown use and avoiding mechanics that are meant to be dodged as well as survivability to free up healers more rather than what my parse numbers look like. But different strokes for different folks ya know?

Yes I am aware that I can simply 'not join' a party finder with 'rules' I do not agree with. I don't jump over to the forums to write a post like this unless I want to feel out the general community opinions on these kinds of requirements. I don't and never plan to argue with someone over party finder requirements I just don't join them, but I still take interest in community opinions so this post was made, thank you.

#JustParserThings

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Never heard of such nonsense before. Sure, tanks should do decent DPS, but for crying out loud, they are tanks. Just ignore those parties.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

I guess my beef with it is... I don't have a freaking clue what my DPS is.

So yeah... when I get a way on my PS4 to calculate it out then i'll worry about it.

Until then i'll make my own PUGs and get the same results.

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That is exactly why the game needs a parser. Bads have no idea how bad they are.

My personal opinion would be a personal parser, not a group one.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

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I understand your point completely but I don't particularly place too much faith on people when I join a pug group. I was healing a T12 a few days ago where this paladin was 150% strength and sword oath and I'm running around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to deal with brand mechanic in phase 2 and keep that tank alive I saw the phoenix shaving 15-25% hp off with auto attacks of course he was mitigating the revelations which worked out but I ended up switching out of healer and going to monk because I was tired of overworking like that to heal that tank. I let someone else do it lol. We got some kills in like this.

Granted, he was parsing 450-500 which was really good bravo to him but I don't want to work that much harder just to farm with pugs... sadly when I switched to monk when our dragoon left and the tank left too. We ended up taking down the boss faster with our new tank who was all fending because my monk parses 600-620 lol (I replaced someone who was parsing 390 though).

Personal experiences aside, because these might vary a lot and it's not an absolute basis for an opinion.

How many groups do you see in PF actually requesting for this? I don't really think this is a thing. Again, I come from Gilgamesh, one of the top raiding servers, and I never heard of it. Pretty sure they're a minority, so nothing to be concerned about, if that even concerns you. They want someone that could adapt to their playstyle, it's their choice. If they don't get that group filled in 2 minutes but in 20 minutes because of that requirement, that's none of our business. I'm sure there're plenty of super confident tanks that will accept it and join them. If that's an "OK" requirement, yes, it is. Why should we judge other's playstyle? They're not forcing you to join these PF, they invite people with that requirement. I don't think it's silly or a nonsense at all... why would it be?

But so far, we're discussing if it's okay for a tank to increase their DPS or not during raid time. Some groups have a good synergy with these builds and they can heal/DPS just okay, like my group for example (Even though I know that personal experiences are somewhat unique and may vary a lot as I said) since I tank T13 with full slaying and I never go below the 50% of my HP during Flatten/Ahk Morn. Having my SCH DPSing almost full time and my WHM sneaking Aeros and Stones from time to time. In pugs I do agree it's super sensitve, but there's when you talk to this person, if you're having issues with him and tell him they're not doing any good for healers, for example. If they are not adapting themselves to your playstyle, you're super free to rep them.

Answer to every 'I saw a PF message that hurt my feelings!' thread.

It's their PF. They can do what they want. You want a PF the way you like it, make your own.

Seriously.

10 pages fighting over whats 'acceptable' to put in a PF box?Anyone can type whatever the F they want in the PF box. Get over it. Don't like it? Make your own and quit bitching on the forums about it.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Answer to every 'I saw a PF message that hurt my feelings!' thread.

It's their PF. They can do what they want. You want a PF the way you like it, make your own.

Seriously.

Anyone can type whatever the F they want in the PF box. Get over it. Don't like it? Make your own and quit bitching on the forums about it.

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Your reply just made me chuckle a hearty chuckle. Thank you for your fine display sir.

You can take your own advice and if there are threads on the forum that bother you, get over it. People here can post what they want.

Someone earlier in the thread said something that is fundamentally true for me and many players. This type of additional expectation on tanks (and healers) to do extra DPS or else in end-game is precisely the reason so many people avoid end-game and the end-game community like it's the black death on steroids.

I won't win any awards for DPS numbers with my gear, but I can tank decently, perhaps well. Any DD player demanding I increase my DPS had better bloody well be executing their job perfectly and using every possible way to increase their DPS before they demand that tanks or healers take up the slack for them.

While we're at it, those same damage dealers better not be taking any unnecessary damage. In case you guys didn't know, you're supposed to dodge AoE attacks...Oh, and by the way, you can maintain your peak DPS even if the tank has to move to dodge an attack, but it requires that you unbolt your feet from the ground first. Or is the need for you to reposition occasionally just too much for you to cope with? Honestly, it's pretty poor when damage dealers with positional requirements refuse to move with the flow of the fight and complain when forced to do so.

If you're going to demand tanks up their DPS, I presume you're also demanding that healers do more DPS? Well, just so you know, healers get really pissed off when damage dealers who demand that the healers DPS, stand in pools of hurt instead of dodging them, because it means they have to expend more MP and time healing you.

Point being, you can't have it both ways. We can all put demands on other roles in a fight, but first and foremost we need to get our roles right, consistently, before we are in any position to ask more of others.

Fundamentally, all content goes faster if everyone executes their job correctly. But, kicking tanks (or healers) for not also being a DPS machine is simply asinine.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

That is exactly why the game needs a parser. Bads have no idea how bad they are.

My personal opinion would be a personal parser, not a group one.

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I take it you're one of the 'goods' then?

'Bads'

What a stupidly pejorative term for other players that is. I loathe seeing people using it at all, but especially in the way you have. The last thing this game needs is a parser. It would be used negatively all the time - by people like yourself - and drive many more players away from the game.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

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Yeah well you see as ive stated in this thread earlier if im expected to do those numbers i will expect the dps to pull 600+ and if they dont i will call them out on it.

Well there aren't even many fights left in-game right now that even warrant 2 tanks... for those that DO require 2 tanks, I could only see this being a gripe if it's the off tank WAR and they are not switching tankmode/ddmode when not actively tanking adds. If they are doing that, and there's still a problem with the group's success there's likely bigger problems with DPS.

Speaking as a DPS, the tank's job is not to do damage. The tank's job is to hold hate. If they can hold hate while doing low damage without the need for DPS/Healers to use Quelling Strikes, that's fine. It's when the tank loses hate that problems arise.

Expecting tanks to contribute to DPS numbers is like expecting healers to contribute to DPS numbers or worse, expecting BLMs and SMNs to contribute to healing numbers.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Your reply just made me chuckle a hearty chuckle. Thank you for your fine display sir.

You can take your own advice and if there are threads on the forum that bother you, get over it. People here can post what they want.

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I'm simply pointing out the futility and absurdity of trying to regulate pf. If I make a roe=kicked pony pf I have every right to do so. If I want make a pf that excludes nin from joining because I'm a pirate irl and hate nin then I can. No one has to justify their pf requirements to anyone else. If no one joins my pf cuz my rules are stupid so be it.

But these threads day after day acting as if people are attacking them with pf comments is just absurd. There is no 'proper' way to make a pf. The PF creator gets to be a little king of their pf castle and has no obligation to explain themselves to anyone.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

Speaking as a DPS, the tank's job is not to do damage. The tank's job is to hold hate. If they can hold hate while doing low damage without the need for DPS/Healers to use Quelling Strikes, that's fine. It's when the tank loses hate that problems arise.

Expecting tanks to contribute to DPS numbers is like expecting healers to contribute to DPS numbers or worse, expecting BLMs and SMNs to contribute to healing numbers.

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Healer DPS and Tank DPS are 2 different things. Tanks are by default hitting the mob and DPSing. You can't tank an encounter and not DPS. You can heal an encounter and not DPS.

So if a tank is already DPSing, why not try to be decent at it? Tanks have extremely basic rotations, no positionals and most of their mitigation tools are oGCD. 50% of a tanks DPS happens by just doing their normal rotation, 20% by gearing correctly, 25% by using the correct stance and 5% is min/maxing.

I see PLDs in T10 with 10500+ HP. That fight can be done easily with 7500 HP. Swap that VIT gear into STR gear and your DPS just went up 20%. I see PLDs that never use Sword oath in FCoB even during adds or between tank busters. PLDs that don't know Sword oath + rampart > shield oath and you take the same amount of damage.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

I see PLDs in T10 with 10500+ HP. That fight can be done easily with 7500 HP.

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I see, and just who do you think you are to decide what another player thinks is just fine for their HP? Many tanks I know prefer to play in a conservative manner to ensure that there are margins for error, a PLD with a larger HP pool than required is a PLD that allows the healer more time and room for maneuver when it comes to healing everyone else and dodging.

The world does not revolve around DPS.

If the title "White Mages thrown out of farms for lowest DPS" ... I'm going to expect everyone is going to tell that person who kicked that WHM is an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I take it you're one of the 'goods' then?

'Bads'

What a stupidly pejorative term for other players that is. I loathe seeing people using it at all, but especially in the way you have. The last thing this game needs is a parser. It would be used negatively all the time - by people like yourself - and drive many more players away from the game.

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I am a very good player, thank you. Almost every time I'm in FCoB it is being parsed. You will never see me talk about the parse numbers outside of a small group of friends. I would never leave a party over someone parsing bad.

I also recommended a personal parser, not a party parser. "Bads" is a poor word, but at least its meaning was effective, based on your response.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I see, and just who do you think you are to decide what another player thinks is just fine for their HP? Many tanks I know prefer to play in a conservative manner to ensure that there are margins for error, a PLD with a larger HP pool than required is a PLD that allows the healer more time and room for maneuver when it comes to healing everyone else and dodging.

The world does not revolve around DPS.

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If the PLD has 10500 HP and their HP never dips below 2000 (assuming a poor healing pair) then the final 2000 HP is useless. They are not "easier" to heal. Its like Melee DPSing stacking 550acc incase they end up in front of the boss.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

If the PLD has 10500 HP and their HP never dips below 2000 (assuming a poor healing pair) then the final 2000 HP is useless. They are not "easier" to heal. Its like Melee DPSing stacking 550acc incase they end up in front of the boss.

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I didn't say it makes it easier to heal the PLD because they have more HP, I said that it gives a wider margin for error and room for the healer to do other things. That final 2K of HP you're talking about is a cushion that allows for contingency. Making something easier to heal, is not the same as allowing a wider margin for error.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

"Bads" is a poor word, but at least its meaning was effective

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Actually, it's not a word at all. And "bad" is not a noun anyway. Sorry, pet peeve.

Carry on ♥

2 sides of the story.

Firstly, there is 10% echo. If you aren't meeting DPS checks, then the players need to look in the mirror; however, good tanks do have respectable DPS. No excuse for a tank to be below 200 dps in Final Coil. Again, though, 10%. It is hardly needed at all anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I see, and just who do you think you are to decide what another player thinks is just fine for their HP? Many tanks I know prefer to play in a conservative manner to ensure that there are margins for error, a PLD with a larger HP pool than required is a PLD that allows the healer more time and room for maneuver when it comes to healing everyone else and dodging.

The world does not revolve around DPS.

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One other thing to add to this, the healers may not be comfortable with tanks with lower HP, or want the HP cushion just in case something goes wrong. If I get a healer who wants me with more HP because they're newer and don't want to be pressured such, so be it; I'd rather be alive than have a healer panic and accidentally let me die

No matter what a tank thinks, we are at the mercy of our healers, just as healers are at our mercy.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I see, and just who do you think you are to decide what another player thinks is just fine for their HP? Many tanks I know prefer to play in a conservative manner to ensure that there are margins for error, a PLD with a larger HP pool than required is a PLD that allows the healer more time and room for maneuver when it comes to healing everyone else and dodging.

The world does not revolve around DPS.

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While i agree on most of your points, such as expectations, a PLD with 10.5k HP isn't gearing themselves correctly.
There's a certain point where having more HP isn't necessarily a good thing. People forget that STR does more than just contribute to damage, after all.
To put it another way, STR does two things: helps mitigation and helps DPS. VIT does one thing: HP.
By using SOME STR, not only are you helping the group as a whole by dealing more damage, you're also mitigating damage rather than absorbing it, which means you require less healing overall. Granted this is based off parry and block mitigation, but it's still SOMETHING rather than having a over large HP pool.
Which plays into another point about gearing *correctly*. iLevel is an entry fee, not a measure of actual ability. There's a huge benefit to using certain pieces of gear over others. Tanks are interesting in this case as they have a LOT of options and tweaks them can make to their "loadout," especially for their jewelry.

About proper tank gearing: don't forget most people stack their main stat, which is Vit for tanks, equipping all their jobvs accessories as they can. Most tanks just don't know better than stacking fending. Educate them, tell them they can do better. Many will be glad to take your advice (assuming you don't tell them in a condescending mannor). If they don't, then they are bad. But being ignorant of their potential doesn't make them a bad player in and of itself.

Our new pld was a vit-stacking, parry build pld; he genuinely thought that's what he was supposed to be doing. He has str accessories on now and is working to get the dps-based dreadwyrm gear he passed over before.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

About proper tank gearing: don't forget most people stack their main stat, which is Vit for tanks, equipping all their jobvs accessories as they can. Most tanks just don't know better than stacking fending. Educate them, tell them they can do better. Many will be glad to take your advice (assuming you don't tell them in a condescending mannor). If they don't, then they are bad. But being ignorant of their potential doesn't make them a bad player in and of itself.

Our new pld was a vit-stacking, parry build pld; he genuinely thought that's what he was supposed to be doing. He has str accessories on now and is working to get the dps-based dreadwyrm gear he passed over before.

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That's a great point.

I'm always shy to correct people in game. People get very defensive, correct or not.

Hopefully SE will make Parry and Vit actually needed for endgame content to avoid this mess

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Originally Posted by myahele

Hopefully SE will make Parry and Vit actually needed for endgage content to avoid this mess

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Well... sort of.

VIT may be more necessary during progression for Alexander (hopefully), but as you get more gear VIT will start losing it's importance and the focus will shift to STR yet again. The problem with the Coils was that HP checks were so very low that you could really get away with STR accessories, or at least crafted, during early progression.

I do hope they change Parry to be more beneficial... it'd be nice to have an actual tank stat and not something that just kind of fills empty space on gear.

I'm a bit more surprised to see the expectation in PF rather than a set group, but I don't see anything wrong with it; it's their PF so their rules (now if they had not forewarned people of this expectation, that's another story). While I don't raid in this game, because of various circumstances, I did do a lot of high tier raiding in WoW as MT, OT, and occasionally as DPS, and tank DPS does have an impact. If they want to burn through content, it makes sense to max your DPS where possible. Expecting that from PuGs though is definitely a situation of "your mileage may vary." They could be in for a long wait for a tank if they're straight up PuGing them with those parameters in mind, or they may luck out.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

That's a great point.

I'm always shy to correct people in game. People get very defensive, correct or not.

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I'm also familiar with this. It's the nature of telling people via text since it's hard for many to be able to tell what tone is being used. Hell, people can get defensive even with voice. I don't expect others to min/max for reasons of they are either comfortable where they are or they don't know to push their boundaries, but I also will help where possible. I will generally gauge people individually with small talk and go from there, because good advice or not, it's up to them to take it and some times they don't want to hear it. Then there's also the fact that it may fit their groups needs and that's not information that we are privy on.

I, personally, am one to push it to the limit once I am familiar with things, and that expectation falls out the window when I am faced with PuGs. My expectation for top tier play only happens when I am with like-minded individuals, not with my casual-playing friends or with PuGs (because it's not like I know how they play) and the varying levels of expectation carried on to this game. I will patiently stay and do my part and if people are struggling, I encourage them and offer advice in a friendly manner. Just like way back when agility became king for feral druids in WoW and I still saw a lot stack stam as bear when they are already beyond their necessary EH; some people either play it safe or don't know any better. I would make a mention of it the variation of gear choices and gauge their response. If it starts becoming an issue for the group, I'll go from there and give advice as necessary.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

About proper tank gearing: don't forget most people stack their main stat, which is Vit for tanks, equipping all their jobvs accessories as they can. Most tanks just don't know better than stacking fending. Educate them, tell them they can do better. Many will be glad to take your advice (assuming you don't tell them in a condescending mannor). If they don't, then they are bad. But being ignorant of their potential doesn't make them a bad player in and of itself.

Our new pld was a vit-stacking, parry build pld; he genuinely thought that's what he was supposed to be doing. He has str accessories on now and is working to get the dps-based dreadwyrm gear he passed over before.

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But its not wrong to stack full vit and parry many healers want this. This gives you the least possibility to die ever even in farm parties where people will make more mistakes.