Why bring MNK to anything anymore?

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Originally Posted by KurisuChie

With a Ninja like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwucJOTTsA I'm skeptical that there will be no difference.

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Have to pay attention to his opener though. If you notice, he crits almost every major hit in that opener, like 9 or so hits in a row? That makes your overall numbers SKYROCKET especially in a 2 minute parse

Wish i had a ping like in that video damn ; ;

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Have to pay attention to his opener though. If you notice, he crits almost every major hit in that opener, like 9 or so hits in a row? That makes your overall numbers SKYROCKET especially in a 2 minute parse

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True, But I wasn't pointing at his DPS. I was trying to establish his execution of mudras, It makes it hard to believe someone with that kind of latency playing a nin will be out played / dps by a monk with the same circumstance. That's just my 2 cents thou.

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Originally Posted by KurisuChie

True, But I wasn't pointing at his DPS. I was trying to establish his execution of mudras, It makes it hard to believe someone with that kind of latency playing a nin will be out played / dps by a monk with the same circumstance. That's just my 2 cents thou.

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Oh with the way MNK currently is, absolutely not. That NIN will smash them all.

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Originally Posted by KurisuChie

With a Ninja like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwucJOTTsA I'm skeptical that there will be no difference.

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Thanks for proving my point with a 2 minute parse

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Originally Posted by KurisuChie

True, But I wasn't pointing at his DPS. I was trying to establish his execution of mudras, It makes it hard to believe someone with that kind of latency playing a nin will be out played / dps by a monk with the same circumstance. That's just my 2 cents thou.

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But then again, this is lavender beds. Don't want to discredit anyone, his execution is obviously flawless, but the difference in latency between housing areas and fcob is quite huge. On our FC house dummy I can do raitons and hutons with close to no/very minimal clipping, in fcob however I barely use raiton at all anymore and just use shuriken instead because mudra lag/rollback/packet loss in there is ridiculous...

MNK's are inferior to at the very least NIN right now...

If you compare them in a completely perfect scenario for both, then I'm guessing they would be pretty even on DPS... and maybe (not sure though), you could argue that MNK's defensive aspects, make up for the added DPS Trick Attack gives your group, but this is a perfect scenario after all... Something that is rare, and probably will keep being rare in the future.

MNK "misses" positionals because of mechanics = inferior to NIN
MNK loses GL even once in a fight(because of mechanics) = inferior to NIN

MNK's was supposed to be "high risk, high reward", but it in reality, it's high risk with no advantage at all... You could even give MNK's permanent GL3, and it wouldn't be OP at all. I know some will disagree with that, but why would it? When we compare MNK's DPS to NIN, we do it assuming GL3 is up at all times (except for opener)

Making so that GL loses 1 stack at a time, should be the very least to be changed. It would still mean that MNK's have more consequences, and it's wouldn't bring up their DPS anything. Either that, or some other way to even it out.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

Oh, and something I've noticed. MNK was never a super popular job but since NIN came along, they've pretty much dissipeared. I almost never encounter on in dungeons and rarely see one in CT-WoD runs.

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That last bit is too true, SMN and MNK are the two rarest jobs in dungeons (and even in open world parties) these days. I hardly ever see them, its probably because NIN is just so dang fun to play lol

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Originally Posted by Vallhallix

That last bit is too true, SMN and MNK are the two rarest jobs in dungeons (and even in open world parties) these days. I hardly ever see them, its probably because NIN is just so dang fun to play lol

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Monk has always been a terrible dungeon class. Building GL on every mob pull is inefficient and boss battles in dungeons are usually short so a monk doesn't fight long enough to truly show what they are capable of. Smn is close to the same. The build up to place dots and the limit on bane limit the class a dungeon class but they fair a bit better than monk in my opinion. Plus treads like this during the early months of 2.0 ruined their image. I feel like I see a ton of both compared to 2013

Funny how DRG fell out of the view in the past few pages, all these NIN vs MNK now - I guess we just have to nerf NIN more! /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Funny how DRG fell out of the view in the past few pages, all these NIN vs MNK now - I guess we just have to nerf NIN more! /sarcasm

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Well, NIN's are too good at the moment IMO, even after their nerf... They beat MNK on both their own DPS, and with the DPS they give to the group, they outperform MNK heavily. DRG too ofc, who still doesn't have any utility to speak of.

What I want to see in 3.0, is that all melee DPS jobs have similar total group DPS, so that includes what DRG and NIN gives you with their buff/debuff... (and DRG getting some more utility)

So, MNK has the highest ST DPS by a margin, followed by DRG and NIN pretty close together.

EDIT: I know MNK has good utility for your group(at least in early progression), but it hardly makes up for NIN's added DPS and Goad

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Well, NIN's are too good at the moment IMO, even after their nerf... They beat MNK on both their own DPS, and with the DPS they give to the group, they outperform MNK heavily. DRG too ofc, who still doesn't have any utility to speak of.

What I want to see in 3.0, is that all melee DPS jobs have similar total group DPS, so that includes what DRG and NIN gives you with their buff/debuff... (and DRG getting some more utility)

So, MNK has the highest ST DPS by a margin, followed by DRG and NIN pretty close together.

EDIT: I know MNK has good utility for your group(at least in early progression), but it hardly makes up for NIN's added DPS and Goad

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Honestly, if everything is going to be similar then they might as well just have one melee class. Id rather they just keep to what they express their goal is with each class.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Honestly, if everything is going to be similar then they might as well just have one melee class. Id rather they just keep to what they express their goal is with each class.

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How would they be similar? It's just their DPS... nothing else would change

Their goal with each class should be balanced, you can't just have NIN being the ultimate killing machine, and then have DRG and MNK fall behind...

NINs are so feeble tho... they can barely take a hit to the face and survive. Sure they have their passive perma walking speed improvement but that only emphatizes how weak their defenses are in comparison to their melee cousins...

Assassinate should be renamed as Suicide :|

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

NINs are so feeble tho... they can barely take a hit to the face and survive. Sure they have their passive perma walking speed improvement but that only emphatizes how weak their defenses are in comparison to their melee cousins...

Assassinate should be renamed as Suicide :|

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Perfect dodge is one of the strongest melee defensive cooldowns in the game, second wind, movement trait and shukichi take care of the rest. They also have the same HP and defenses as a MNK, they just lack fist of earth.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Perfect dodge is one of the strongest melee defensive cooldowns in the game, second wind, movement trait and shukichi take care of the rest. They also have the same HP and defenses as a MNK, they just lack fist of earth.

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Perfect dodge is good yes, but it's only situational. Fists of Earth does wonders when you need it to, and the enhanced Second Wind helps in a pinch. I wouldn't count their movement and teleport as a defensive trait, but rather something to avoid damage entirely (which Monk has shoulder tackle). But we can both agree that Dragoon trumps both of them now :c they're secondary tanks.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

NINs are so feeble tho... they can barely take a hit to the face and survive. Sure they have their passive perma walking speed improvement but that only emphatizes how weak their defenses are in comparison to their melee cousins...

Assassinate should be renamed as Suicide :|

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Don't assassinate in cones and aoes?

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

NINs are so feeble tho... they can barely take a hit to the face and survive. Sure they have their passive perma walking speed improvement but that only emphatizes how weak their defenses are in comparison to their melee cousins...

Assassinate should be renamed as Suicide :|

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MNK, DRG, and NIN all have the exact same MDEF. MNK and NIN have the exact same DEF; DRG has higher, yes. Yes, Fist of Earth MNK and DRG by default will be slightly more survivable but Perfect Dodge counters some of the deadliest situations in FCoB and I know any MNK would trade Fist of Earth for it in a heart beat since it sometimes lets you DPS more as well as survive more.

Assassinate can be deadly if you time it wrong I guess, but it's a small price for having a lowly 40s CD on it compared to Mercy Stroke.

I don't really play nin all that much, but Assassinate should be used with the same caution a drg would use their jumps.

Don't jump/assassinate into stupid things and you'll be fine.

Main issue is the worthlessness of monks anywhere outside of coil. Can they clear all the content? Ofcourse. Are they a detriment to the party? In most cases yes. DPS output is hilariously bad due to GL downtime and inability to get proper flank/rear hits off because you're either doing mechanics or the tank dodging AOEs. All my i110-125 classes wreck my monk's i130 damage output, it's sad.

I really hope the expansion will give us some kind of tool to perform better, whether it's half decent AOE or better/more ways to build stacks quickly (every target that dies you damaged lowers PB cooldown by X seconds?) or extend the duration through something that requires player input ("skill"). I don't need BLM AOE damage output but it would be nice if they threw something our way.

Would much prefer the dragon kick debuff than a dmg buff. Cant do dps if you died from an unmitigated and undebuffed gigaflare.

Parse naked with lvl 1 weapon, I'd like to see the results from mnk's, nin's and drg's.

Also, yeah, when you and your party is 130 you don't need mnk for mitigation purposes, so it's useless, but, since you're 130 why would you bother with changing the mnk to other dps class, if you won't have any problems with dps with the gear you have.

Still highest DPS of all classes.
Dragon Kick for lowering the damage the raid takes from large magic hits.
Mantra.

You may just be bad, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by ExiaQuanta

Would much prefer the dragon kick debuff than a dmg buff. Cant do dps if you died from an unmitigated and undebuffed gigaflare.

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You do not need dragon kick to survive giga, nor did you ever unless your HP was really low. All you need is soil + succor.

Because Summoner sucks and there are still 3 Melee spots to fill

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Because Summoner sucks and there are still 3 Melee spots to fill

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Idk why i laughed at this so hard

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Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

Monk is the highest single-target dps, regardless of item level. If your whole team was i600 Monk would still top the parse on 1 target.

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Pretty sure SMN would be top dps even with shit mp issue at ilvl600 lmao. Monk is good but not that good ahaha

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Because Summoner sucks and there are still 3 Melee spots to fill

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LMAO you know in a world of mmo being king does not last long Sadly smn fail to keep up. With the new style of raid for the new coil i pretty much blame SE. Why make every single gear spell speed when you know SMN can't use any of it. Top of that why make the new coil without any time from dps so they can get mp back.

:( Sucks i enjoy SMN so much i still play it for raid not top dps anymore but at least i don't suck like most people that play mnk or drg in this game.

Lol....as someone who plays both monk and ninja (cleared t9 as a ninja and cleared t13 as a monk)all I can say is good players will be good. Bad players will be bad. If you are bringing someone in your raid group just because they play a certain class over someone who is better but doesn't play the class you want, well you're doing something wrong.
Skill>class.
Oh and please dont be a smart ass and say, "then I can bring liek 4 drg or 4 smn or 4 *insert class here* hurr durr" you know what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by ClaireAbigail

Lol....as someone who plays both monk and ninja (cleared t9 as a ninja and cleared t13 as a monk)all I can say is good players will be good. Bad players will be bad. If you are bringing someone in your raid group just because they play a certain class over someone who is better but doesn't play the class you want, well you're doing something wrong.
Skill>class.
Oh and please dont be a smart ass and say, "then I can bring liek 4 drg or 4 smn or 4 *insert class here* hurr durr" you know what I'm talking about.

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Skill is irrelevant in this discussion because the arguments assume that both players of the NIN and MNK in our hypothetical scenarios are of equal skill level. With that said, we are discussing the differences in their utility and which one is more useful in the current state of the game.

"Hypothetical" and "assume" there's no perfect scenario here. People are just basically putting two classes against each other for God knows why. Here's a realistic senario for you: people make mistakes. Sometimes healers will need help, sometimes the dps will need it. Both have good sets of utilities that help each group cover their weaknesses. If anything, every class synergize along with each other. There will be times where your group will push so damn fast that there will be a gigaflare after a megaflare. What do you do? Use mantra the monk one so people can be topped off properly. Sometimes there won't be a soil up. People screw up. some of the arguments in this thread is invalid and will probably never happen. God lol people here are just arguing for arguments sake because they don't wanna admit they are wrong. Leave the classes as it is. They are pretty balanced already.

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Originally Posted by ClaireAbigail

"Hypothetical" and "assume" there's no perfect scenario here. People are just basically putting two classes against each other for God knows why. Here's a realistic senario for you: people make mistakes. Sometimes healers will need help, sometimes the dps will need it. Both have good sets of utilities that help each group cover their weaknesses. If anything, every class synergize along with each other. There will be times where your group will push so damn fast that there will be a gigaflare after a megaflare. What do you do? Use mantra the monk one so people can be topped off properly. Sometimes there won't be a soil up. People screw up. some of the arguments in this thread is invalid and will probably never happen. God lol people here are just arguing for arguments sake because they don't wanna admit they are wrong. Leave the classes as it is. They are pretty balanced already.

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I don't want start a big argument over it all, the expansion is coming soon anyways, but I wanted to point one thing out...

Like you said yourself just now, people make mistakes, and comparing jobs in perfect scenarios is hard too, but... If we assume players are making mistakes, and mechanics makes it impossible to have a perfect scenario, who comes out on top? Ninja...

Ninjas can just swiftly get back to their rotation and doesn't even have to bother with their positioning... meanwhile a Monk who makes a mistake or just can't keep up GL, will have to build up the stacks again in a painful way. Hell, even messing up the positional attacks for some reason, is a big DPS loss.

We aren't talking about some minor differences here, we are talking about a huge amount of DPS loss.

If a Ninja and Monk with the exact same skill level do a fight where you lose GL at least once, it will be directly reflected on their DPS, and MNK's Mantra and Dragonkick doesn't even begin to make up for that.

They changed DRG's positionals because they were too punishing, but what about MNK? You shouldn't lose all your GL stacks like that... and they should more easily get those 3 stacks, for raiding, but more importantly for dungeons and other content, where Monk is horrible to play.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I don't want start a big argument over it all, the expansion is coming soon anyways, but I wanted to point one thing out...Like you said yourself just now, people make mistakes, and comparing jobs in perfect scenarios is hard too, but... If we assume players are making mistakes, and mechanics makes it impossible to have a perfect scenario, who comes out on top? Ninja...

Ninjas can just swiftly get back to their rotation and doesn't even have to bother with their positioning... meanwhile a Monk who makes a mistake or just can't keep up GL, will have to build up the stacks again in a painful way. Hell, even messing up the positional attacks for some reason, is a big DPS loss.

We aren't talking about some minor differences here, we are talking about a huge amount of DPS loss.

If a Ninja and Monk with the exact same skill level do a fight where you lose GL at least once, it will be directly reflected on their DPS, and MNK's Mantra and Dragonkick doesn't even begin to make up for that.

They changed DRG's positionals because they were too punishing, but what about MNK? You shouldn't lose all your GL stacks like that... and they should more easily get those 3 stacks, for raiding, but more importantly for dungeons and other content, where Monk is horrible to play.

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The Monk has nothing to worry about in the expansion because the only roles being affected are the Healer, Bard and Tank. The Summoner population will continue to rapidly decline unless SE completely overhauls it to make it more competitive. Bards will compete with Machinist and there will always be 3 melee spots unless SE pleasantly surprises us.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Monk has nothing to worry about in the expansion because the only roles being affected are the Healer, Bard and Tank. The Summoner population will continue to rapidly decline unless SE completely overhauls it to make it more competitive. Bards will compete with Machinist and there will always be 3 melee spots unless SE pleasantly surprises us.

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3 melee spots?

If SE keeps the same model as now, you will continue to bring 2 melee DPS, 1 BLM/SMN and 1 BRD/MCH(?)

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Originally Posted by Craiger

3 melee spots?

If SE keeps the same model as now, you will continue to bring 2 melee DPS, 1 BLM/SMN and 1 BRD/MCH(?)

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Actually the model now is 3 Melee DPS, BLM and BRD and if things continue the meta will be 3 Melee, BLM and Bard/MCH

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Actually the model now is 3 Melee DPS, BLM and BRD and if things continue the meta will be 3 Melee, BLM and Bard/MCH

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That's 5 DPS you know... and you can only bring 4 if you're bringing 2 Tanks and 2 healers, which you have to, at least before everyone is overgeared

Don't know where you're getting that from...

J

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Originally Posted by Craiger

That's 5 DPS you know... and you can only bring 4 if you're bringing 2 Tanks and 2 healers, which you have to, at least before everyone is overgeared

Don't know where you're getting that from...

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It's Bard or Machinist and Monk, Ninja or Dragoon, BLM. Monks still have the highest sustained damage of the DPS job so they aren't in the same position as the Summoner because the Melee are pretty close in damage.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I don't want start a big argument over it all, the expansion is coming soon anyways, but I wanted to point one thing out...

Like you said yourself just now, people make mistakes, and comparing jobs in perfect scenarios is hard too, but... If we assume players are making mistakes, and mechanics makes it impossible to have a perfect scenario, who comes out on top? Ninja...

Ninjas can just swiftly get back to their rotation and doesn't even have to bother with their positioning... meanwhile a Monk who makes a mistake or just can't keep up GL, will have to build up the stacks again in a painful way. Hell, even messing up the positional attacks for some reason, is a big DPS loss.

We aren't talking about some minor differences here, we are talking about a huge amount of DPS loss.

If a Ninja and Monk with the exact same skill level do a fight where you lose GL at least once, it will be directly reflected on their DPS, and MNK's Mantra and Dragonkick doesn't even begin to make up for that.

They changed DRG's positionals because they were too punishing, but what about MNK? You shouldn't lose all your GL stacks like that... and they should more easily get those 3 stacks, for raiding, but more importantly for dungeons and other content, where Monk is horrible to play.

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Ideally.. the only "fix" I think a Monk could use or benefit from is making the GL stacks drop off one by one as opposed to losing it all at once. So it goes from "GL3 > GL2 > GL1 > to why did you let all three DROP 0_0".

I think that would be a fair and simple fix since Monk is pretty great in all other regards.

I'm just annoyed with the positionals and greased lightning. Bosses constantly flipping around right as you activate a skill to target a ranged party member for an attack, ruining your positional, greased lightning's pitifully short duration making it rather simple to lose stacks.

I mean, if DRG and NIN can compete with monk without the downsides, and they bring better burst and aoe, what's the point?

A ninja can cast his self buffs without needing a target. A monk needs something to hit so many intermissions just screw him over. A monk needs to go through 3 cycles to start dealing peak dps, DRG and NON just start faster. DRG and NIN have better burst and AoE, monk AoE is not only weak, it's TP prohibitive in cost.

If you're gonna make a class much harder/inconvenient to play, the rewards need to match that inconvenience otherwise there's no point if the other ones that don't have to deal with positionals or ramp up and have actual burst are within 10-20 DPS of you or on par.

You know, it's not like I didn't mention this in other threads about this discussion. Monk still does top DPS if you want to pit a well versed NIN vs. a well versed Monk. Want to know something? NIN and a MNK in the same party. Who's going to hit the TP draught first? The NIN will. Why is that? Because they only have Invigorate. But the MNK only has Invigorate too! But wait..! The NIN has Goad, they SHOULD be giving this to the MNK which goes into the overall DPS lasting longer.

T10 - Only time losing stacks is if you're picked for wild charge(this is potentially avoidable, but the window is very, very strict)
T11 - You don't have to go the full flank for a positional movement. So even if you're tethered, you can still get positional. Losing GL3 shouldn't be an issue here though.
T12 - Transition into Bennu Phase. You will lose GL3. But you can PB here and just start over again. Just make sure to end on Twin or Snap as the last Bennu dies to maintain GL3 as Phoenix comes to play again.
T13 - Divebombs. Loss of GL3 is obvious. You can pick and choose when to use you're PB, but I usually just save it for Bahamut returning for Teraflare(Though I think the span between first DB and Tera is more than three minutes, so two PB could be ready if used at first set of adds)

Is the loss of GL3 fair because of mechanics? No. Not at all. I certainly agree that we should have a stack by stack loss or another way of achieving GL3 or PB(There's a PVP skill that does grant PB which is rather nice. Another which instantly grants GL3). I'm not fond of building stacks again because of mechanics while everyone else can just go ham from the get go after mechanics. People speak of high risk and high reward, but I guarantee you people will hate you for trying to play risky and ignoring mechanics for the sake of keeping your DPS.