Low probabilities of Triple Triad drops, big fish, etc. Grinds becoming unreal.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I enjoy Triple Triad, I am at 40 cards which is probably above average. But I know that to enjoy it fully I will need 60 cards and right now the grind is reaching the point where I'm having to decide whether the potential fun of hitting 60 cards is worth the sacrifices it will require elsewhere. I shouldn't have to put in the equivalent of a fulltime job to make the game enjoyable.

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... the patch hasn't even been out for a full week yet. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to be complaining that you haven't gotten everything from a patch in less than a week?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

People in this thread do not feasibly accept that it's not 100% because if this they did, this very thread would not exist. My question to those is what is acceptable to you? Something you can obtain in less then 10 tries? How much of a % is ok if not 1%?

5%? Can you feel the difference or would you still call it 1%?

10%? Can you get it in less then 10 tries? What if you still can't beat a 10% chance? Does it still feel like 1% to you?

20%? 1 in 5 attempts, quick enough yet?

Once you go past 10%, you are getting into a zone where content can be completed very quickly in succession.

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Quoting this because everyone seemed to ignore it, but it's exactly what I always wonder.

If truly random isn't good enough, exactly what is?

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Originally Posted by seida

Quoting this because everyone seemed to ignore it, but it's exactly what I always wonder.

If truly random isn't good enough, exactly what is?

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It isnt ment to be random at all. Why else would drop %s be listed? It used to be in rpgs or mmos that these %'s would match with the amount of drops per amount of kills. It would only be random in so far that it wouldnt match the exact amount, but could be a little less, or a little more.

Oldschool mmos like ragnarok online for example were a heavy grind, but they were not rng. Because if you grinded a certain amount of mobs you could fairly accurately say how many of x and y loot you would obtain.

Why have many players of online games forgetting this? That is what I always wonder.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I have sold like 5 Ramuh and a handful of the 3 star drops and still no Kan-E :(

The only consolation is I'm probably far from the worse. I've known people who had to run 66 rounds of Aururm Vale for the dungeon drop for Zodiac, and there's this dude on Reddit that had over 100 of each of the 2-3 star cards from the Imperial before getting the Gaius.

In the meantime I need 5 more cards to 60... Ahriman, Sagahin, Demon Wall, Gilgamesh and Shiva. All 3* and below (edit, okay, Shiva is 4*) hoping it will be easier.

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Some amusing stories about the rng:
A guy was trying to get Levi earlier today, comment how he had gotten 3 Merlwybs but no levi. I had gotten about 10 levis myself, no Merlwybs. That very timeframe he lamented, I obtained 3 levis (from 10~ wins)

I defeated Rowena just now. Played her 7 games, lost 2, tied 4, win only the 7th. Dropped Louis. Certainly he isnt as rare as a 5 star..but still. :P
Now done about 45 duties without a card.


I honestly can't make head or tails of this rng. I always thought WoW had it bad when it came to RNG, but apparently Square developed RNG^2. ;)

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

snip

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Ah, hello Tiggy. Your posts are credit to you as always. Not worth responding further to that.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

It isnt ment to be random at all. Why else would drop %s be listed? It used to be in rpgs or mmos that these %'s would match with the amount of drops per amount of kills. It would only be random in so far that it wouldnt match the exact amount, but could be a little less, or a little more

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But that is how it works. However the fact of the matter is there will always be outliers. People view their own experience with bias and don't realise that, on the whole, the drop rate for anything is "normal".

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Originally Posted by seida

But that is how it works. However the fact of the matter is there will always be outliers. People view their own experience with bias and don't realise that, on the whole, the drop rate for anything is "normal".

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What matters is at what sample size it starts to even out, which is the point im trying to explain. In recent years the sample size is far too large, due to the use of elaborate seeds. With the result that any individual might have godsend luck, or horribly bad luck, either far beyond the scope of average.

I have post this in the TT thread and another post but here it is again, just to join the thread.

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I queue as tank so I get in often (between every fight, i have a few se to 1 less than 1 min rest)

Friday 17:00 gmt+1 to 5:36 am gmt+1, 30x ultros cards, 0x Terra.
Saturday 14:00 gmt+1 to 3 am gmt+1 20x ultros cards, 0x Terra.
Sunday 15:00 gmt+1 to 20:57 gmt+1 11x ultros 0x Terra.
Sunday 23:30 gmt+1 to 1:30 gmt+1 1x ultros 0x Terra

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will continues again today and I will update it

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Legit enough, but Hildibrand have the same drop rate as the Imperial though. There is no instance to get Hildi :/

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You can try beating up Helmhart instead for Hildy.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... the patch hasn't even been out for a full week yet. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to be complaining that you haven't gotten everything from a patch in less than a week?

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Unfortunately the first TT tournament is occurring exactly a week after the patch dropped. I don't even think I'll make it to 60 but I hope to God that Squenix has actual brackets for the tourney. They should have brackets for 1-star (0-30), 2-star (30-59), and 3-star (60+) but I have no idea if such a blindingly obvious idea would have occurred to them. If not, then if you want to stand a chance you have to have 60 cards. 3-star deck holders will wipe the floor with opponents who only have 1-star and 2-star decks.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Unfortunately the first TT tournament is occurring exactly a week after the patch dropped. I don't even think I'll make it to 60 but I hope to God that Squenix has actual brackets for the tourney. They should have brackets for 1-star (0-30), 2-star (30-59), and 3-star (60+) but I have no idea if such a blindingly obvious idea would have occurred to them. If not, then if you want to stand a chance you have to have 60 cards. 3-star deck holders will wipe the floor with opponents who only have 1-star and 2-star decks.

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Yeah, I mean, the fact that there might be situations where people would want to forfeit a match did not occur to them, so I wouldn't be holding my breath. I won't even be entering that thing.

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Originally Posted by Illya

You can try beating up Helmhart instead for Hildy.

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Is there screenshots that Helmhart drops Hildy?

I also made a friend today who had beaten Ultros & Typhon over 120 times in the past few days, had 57 Ultros & Typhon cards, and no Terra Branford card to show for his work. The system really is pretty broken. The struggle... is real.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Is there screenshots that Helmhart drops Hildy?

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That's just a rumor that's gotten out of hand. He doesn't even use a Hildibrand card.

Does he not drop Hildy? The information I've seen says he does. I've beaten him up a lot and never gotten it though. :(

I didn't think what cards the NPCs used had anything to do with what they drop though. Helmhart uses a Louisoix but doesn't drop that for instance.

Yes, the cards NPCs give are specifically from their moveset. That said, no, not all of the cards an NPC uses are in their pool. Usually they only give two different cards. Some NPCs, like the Grand Company generals and Indolent Imperial, can give 3-4 different cards. Even then, the cards they give are ones they can use in play.

My experience with the Garuda TT card.
I grinded Garuda HM like mad. No drop. Sometimes someone in the PF party would get it, mostly they didn't.
Then I joined a Garuda Ex pony farm.... We grinded her for about 3 hours, fight taking only 5 minutes on average. I got my card after 2 hours and this was after the other healer had gotten 7 of these cards. The pony only dropped about 4 or 5 times.

Then I figured, let's try some dungeons. Got Tonberry after the 2nd run. Got Sahagin and Demon Wall on first run. Then I decided, let's buy a few packs. Got Minfilia on the first Gold pack I bought.

That's RNG for you. If RNG doesn't seem to be on your side, go do something else, your luck may just turn then.
RNG is and will be RNG. There is no predicting that. It may suck with a certain goal but at that moment you just have to deviate from your plan and be flexible. RNG will be on your side with something else.

RNG is RNG. I got Bahamut in 10 minutes, my fiancee got it in 30. There's not a whole lot you can do to improve RNG. While you may be having bad luck, they have to look at the overall acquisition rates when adjusting the drop percentage. Something tells me that Bahamut isn't as hard to get over the whole community as your luck is making it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

Perhaps they should just let everyone press a button that gives them everything they want without having to do anything!

And then people will not sub. People NEED goals in an MMO. The base gameplay is too repetitive to keep people subscribing w/o them. By making some goals easy (hitting 50) and some goals difficult (ponies) you have a nice balance. It also makes sure certain things are rare - making it so not the entire player base can have something creates a sense of accomplishment that otherwise wouldn't exist. Because after all, it is just a bunch of pixels that don't mean really anything.

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Missing the point much. Maybe try reading the thread before posting please?

MMOs need long-term goals to maintain subs, yes. Now if someone has terrible luck with RNG and doesn't see any progress to ANY of their long-term goals over several days of play time they'll be pretty frustrated. This is a double-edged sword. You CANNOT rely on RNG to create long-term goals because for some people they will get an instant reward first try and others will give up because they will NEVER see the drop. Suddenly having RNG to extend content to maintain subs doesn't work because you also have people quitting due to bad luck...

All of this has already been discussed in the thread. The game needs a smart RNG system to put a hard cap on how many times the RNG can screw you over with bad rolls. If something has a 1% drop chance it should increase by 1% for every time you don't get the item. The result would be a hard cap of 100 tries before a guaranteed drop; that's 1/100 odds which can also be represented as 1% (i.e. the drop chance assigned to the item). This change would not make the grind any easier for the majority of players, it would serve only to ensure that there are no hellishly unlucky players that go through hundreds of attempts still with no drop.

Other games have implemented this system already and it works perfectly. From a developer standpoint it is favourable as well because they can guarantee a maximum for how long things will take when planning content, where currently they cannot due to RNG.

Did you really mention the Cactpot? You are complaining that a lottery is random? That was rediculous.

People have so much tunnel vision in this game, it is no wonder they get burnt out so easily on rare drops. Mix up what you do, don't grind the same thing over and over for half a day then get surprised when it burns you out. There isn't much in life period that you can do over and over and over again and enjoy. Spread it out, it is a video game, stop obsessing about 1 particular drop. This just sets up disapppintment.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Ok so I normally don't complain about things like drop rates. I farmed Atma for 3 relics, 2 with old rates, no big deal. I farm ponies all the time and still only have 1. But some of the RNG is sapping the fun out of this game. I've spent 7 hours trying to get Bahamut from Elmer mostly winning. I've spent 13 hours trying to catch Kuno the Killer for the Feast of Famine quest and I have full FSH BiS. I'm really into achievements and vanity items and silly little side quests but the grind is too much for some of this stuff.

A.

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Well the Bahamut card is legendary. To be honest, they should limit how many legendary cards actually drop. Maybe 100 per server of each one. It should be stupid rare drop.

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Originally Posted by Rankina

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

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I love responses like this. They try to justify current shitty gameplay with how things were int he past. Good thing we are all still driving Model-Ts with no airbags, too, right?

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Originally Posted by am0n

I love responses like this. They try to justify current shitty gameplay with how things were int he past. Good thing we are all still driving Model-Ts with no airbags, too, right?

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RNG is a staple of MMOs. More like complaining that my new car still uses rubber tires, OMG why hasn't this been improved by now!?!?!?

The grind wouldn't be so bad if you were at least making constant progress. However, when progress is completely related to RNG (Looking at you relic quest dungeon drops!!!), you can hours and hours with no progress. IMO, that is a huge problem.

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Originally Posted by Wobble

So tired of the same old generic response....

But OP I do agree with your points.

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So tired of the same old generic complaint...

Do people go onto FPS forums and complain that you need fast reflexes to do well?

They should have kept the level grind, that way when something like the relic or triple triad came along, people would be prepared for it instead of immediately complaining cause it's "too hurd".

While I do disagree with some aspects of RNG, (e.g. repeat drops 5 weeks in a row in Coil) it is and always will be a part of this game. SE has been doing this for over a decade and the result is 2 successful MMOs, I don't think they are going to change it any time soon.

That being said, there are many other things in this game that are not based on RNG. You farm lights for Nexus. You used to be able to get a very decent weapon by downing 3 ex Primals per week (outdated, yes). Running a weekly quest for a Carbontwine/Carboncoat. Daily Ix'al quests for mats to craft the best DoH/DoL gear or to sell for profit. A guaranteed Alexandrite once per day. The list of things that are 100% RNG free goes on and on.

I do think SE needs to implement more of these type of token systems alongside the RNG stuff. (like clearing t13 gives you an item like Shiva does that can be traded for a weapon drop from there once you get 5)

The biggest problem with RNG is the fact that it has an unfair scale that bases itself on complete luck instead of effort from the player.

Since Triple Triad came out, myself and a few of my friends have been for hours every day trying to get the Terra Branford card from the Ultros/Typhoon fight. I believe between these days we have put 20 hours worth of play time into it. What is truly upsetting in this is not the fact it doesn't drop more than people who we invited into the party getting it in less than 5 runs. Their time getting it was effortless while we are wasting our time day and night trying to get this -one- card. This is truly RNG at it's worse. I have since then quit Triple Triad. The entire system they put in is pure RNG and the quest to get cards is -not fun-, no form of any type of fun.

What I would have done is for starters, don't include cards in dungeons. This was SE's brilliant plan of getting people to engage in older content, and what is worse is the RNG is almost as bad here. I ran WP(normal and hard), AK(normal and hard), and Pharos Sirius 10+ times at least and have not seen a card from any of them while I see people around me getting it on the first or second run. It is pretty grotesque. At worst you should of made them just 1-star cards that guaranteed drop. Nope, you just need a reason for people to keep coming back to these old and outdated dungeons, and making them a grind on top of that, just make it worse and worse on the fun factor. I understand it is too hard to make an actual clever way of having people return to old content.

Next thing I would of done is make the chance very high on obtaining the card from NPC's if you meet certain conditions, not simply win then cross your fingers. Like if you fill the entire grid with your color, then you receive the rare card. Might not be the best idea, but the general idea I am trying to give is you should of set difficult yet fun conditions on obtaining these cards. I want to look at a player with a high end card and say "He must of pulled something clever off to obtain that card.", not "Son of a bitch got lucky getting that card, I have been grinding it all day and nothing!".

My biggest question is, why can't SE actually create content that does not revolve heavily around RNG? It is almost like they are incapable of being able to distribute content and rewards without basing it mostly off luck. The entire relic quest after the 2.0 quest line is the laziest form of development I had ever seen.

I am fine with grinds, I understand that is the nature of the business with MMO's, but everyone has to be on an equal level with this. Everyone needs to put the same exact effort in obtaining something, not one man gets it in less than 5 minutes and one doesn't in 5 days. The system is unfair and pretty much cruel to people, and why it is so frustrating. I seriously hope SE takes in this feedback and not being so heavily RNG reliant in Heavensward, unfortunately that would be giving them too much praise. They really need to touch up on this, because it is going to seriously bite them in the ass one day if they don't see the light on this matter.

Also, has any interviewer ever called Yoshi-P out on the intensity of RNG in this game? If so can you link it please? I am interested in what his take is on it. I have a hard time believing you can justify it without sounding ridiculous.

I guess my point was this: People are going to complain no matter what. SE knows this. The playerbase at large knows this. If you (OP) want to quit over it you can, but like we used to say in XI, "See you in 2 months".

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Originally Posted by Pruviant

I guess my point was this: People are going to complain no matter what. SE knows this. The playerbase at large knows this. If you (OP) want to quit over it you can, but like we used to say in XI, "See you in 2 months".

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I guarantee much more people are going to complain less if you set up a system where effort is made the same among all players, not luck where effort is unfairly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I guarantee much more people are going to complain less if you set up a system where effort is made the same among all players, not luck where effort is unfairly balanced.

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I agree with you, and I am not saying that I embrace RNG. I would much rather have an effort based system that rewarded players based on commitment/skill. Getting so upset about RNG is just silly in my opinion, and while I can understand a "gotta catch them all" mentality, it really is just a side game with no real rewards other than completion and MGP that will get you what, minions and some glamour gear? C'mon.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

You're aware that there are 106 big fish right? 106 x 13 hours = I'm going to find a new game.

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112, actually. And zero took me 13 hours. One maybe took 6 hours for me. The rest? Drastically less.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

80 Triple Triad cards x 7 hours = I'm going to find a new game.

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24 hours x7 days = 168 hours. You are suggesting that cards takes 7 hours on average? Most active people have at least 30 by now, many north of 60. And it hasn't even been seven, twenty-four hour days yet. Please.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

At some point you have to say enough is enough.

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Indeed, enough with the misrepresentations.

This is why I like achievement prizes (and achievements in general). You do your obligatory grind, and eventually get a prize (or more) as a reward. Any RNG drops are an added bonus. I look at it as the proverbial "two birds/one stone." However, I do agree that the RNG can get a bit maddening, if there is no consolation if the RNG doesn't go the players' way.

It's important to keep rare stuff rare, as it maintains the value of the achievement. However it's also important that the player should remain more engaged in the experience, and less frustrated, despite the outcome of the RNG result.

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Originally Posted by Pruviant

Running a weekly quest for a Carbontwine/Carboncoat.

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Wait, you can get carbontwine from the weekly quest now? When did that happen?

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Wait, you can get carbontwine from the weekly quest now? When did that happen?

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2.51.

/10chars

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Originally Posted by Sumimi

2.51.

/10chars

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Thank the Gods! I so hate hunts.

For the last time, I'm not complaining about the RNG of any one thing, it is the cumulative frustration of many instances of bad luck over a period of time. I do realize how averages work. My argument is that while some of the outliers are extremely lucky players, there are outliers that are extremely unlucky players. Should these latter players slog on hoping to make progress day by day, even though they grow more miserable with each failed attempt to achieve something?

I know others have stated this already in this thread and in others but winning the RNG game is not hard work. Furthermore, a game should not feel like work. Also, how things have been done in the past is no justification for doing things the same way going forward.

My suggestion was to implement a system that would work like this:

The Devs want something to be on average a 1% drop. Instead of making it a flat 1% average with the game rolling each time you do x activity, creating a rather large number of dissatisfied players for whom it takes 200, 300, 400, or more times to win said item, cap the number of tries at a set number beyond which the rate increases. For example, after 100 tries, the % goes to 5, 10, 20% or more. At a certain point, maybe 500 times, it would be 100%. This doesn't take away from the grind, what it does is ensure that people are not left out forever because of bad luck alone. If you think this is someone wanting something handed to them, I have nothing more to say because these outliers would still be working much harder than the average player.

Also, on the subject of grinds, grinds are often associated with doing some unfun activity for long periods of time to achieve some goal but the best grinds are ones that involve fun activities (yes they do exist). A good example of this for me was doing lights for relic (but I can think of many others). With lights you can do whatever content you want and still make progress towards something. People that want something the fastest can take the uber-repetitive route (grinding just Garuda HM, for example). There need to be more grinds that allow player choice. I think it's great you can buy some cards with MGP. This means you can do the activities you actually find enjoyable. This is not crazy talk; we're playing a game.

since it's 4 fun content. I don't mind at all. It's not like a relic weapon.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

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Your argument would be better if you simply said, which I believe you are trying to say, is simply that every player should be on a equal playing field in obtaining something. Not something Player A can get done in 30 minutes, and Player B putting the same effort and having to do 5 days worth.

RNG will always exist in some form, and so will grind, these are two things you ultimately can not rid of in an MMO. Almost completely basing it off RNG is SE's biggest fault. Where grinding and hoping to be lucky instead of grinding knowing you are getting closer and closer to your goal. It should take Player A and B the same exact amount of content to accomplish and earn something. Rather it be grind 100 FATE's to finish part of a quest or whatnot.

Yeah, the RNG in the game is pretty silly, but at the same time I always think "it could be worse". I mean, most of the crazy RNG is limited to optional, non-critical aspects of the game like vanity items.

I remember playing PSO all those many years ago. The Psycho Wand had a 1 in 1.4 million (0.00006%) chance to drop from only a Chaos Bringer, which spawned only a handful of times in only one area. A much more common enemy, a Booma, could drop the Agito, but at a chance of 1 in 137 million. To put that in perspective, winning the powerball lottery is a 1 in 175 million chance. Winning Canada's LottoMax: 1 in 28 million.

I know that has nothing to do with this game, but I always like to bring up PSO's drop rates in these conversations. They're just so ridiculous I actually kind of admire them.

Speaking of which, what's the rarest item in the game? Just in terms of pure drop-rates. I don't do much hardcore raiding, but I think that sort of stuff is really interesting.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

... the patch hasn't even been out for a full week yet. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to be complaining that you haven't gotten everything from a patch in less than a week?

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I'm guessing English isn't your first language if that's what you thought my complaint was. Try Google translate rather than make things up that you wish I'd said and call it ridiculous.

In reality I'm at the point where I want to stop playing TT because it's getting fruitless. I've spent about 5 hours on two NPCs tonight and last night with nothing but duplicates to show for it. I've spent about 3 hours in dungeons trying to get 1-2 star cards over the weekend with nothing to show for it.

I don't want to spend 20 hours obtaining one card - that is a weeks worth of playtime doing nothing but farming that card. I don't even care about obtaining rare cards, or every card as you somehow managed to get from my post. I'm trying to farm 2-4 star cards just to hit that magic 60 but it's fruitless. Anything past 60 is a waste of time due to the one card limitation for 4-5 star cards and I've no desire to farm Gaius, Terra or any of the other insanity driven tasks.

What SE should have done is let people who like these grinds have their rare cards but have more common 1-3 star cards so that everyone else can still hit 60 with ease and enjoy the game. Having 30 of the 80 cards be rare 4-5 star cards is ridiculous when you can only use one of them. There should have only been 20 of them with the other 10 spread out over the lower ranks.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Wait, you can get carbontwine from the weekly quest now? When did that happen?

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Patch notes bro.

I get into this kind of mood myself when I have to grind something and it just doesn't seem to work out for me. Then, as the streak continues, I see my two friends who I believe the game loves just get everything either on their first or two try just blow past me.

Zeta farming for my one friend? Garuda bonus more than once. Levi or Ifrit when it wasn't. Only one window of no bonus. Me? Multiple no bonus windows.

Triple Triad? Nada. Beaten NPCs a few times over (nothing crazy cause I don't actually like TT) and nothing. Yet, my friend got all the dropped cards real quick.

My WoD loot drops are even worse. Sometimes I just can't stand the grind when I'm on a crap streak. In times like that, I just decide that I've actually been playing too long and I'm bashing my head against a wall. I go off and play Assassin's Creed Unity and feel much better when I return.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I guarantee much more people are going to complain less if you set up a system where effort is made the same among all players, not luck where effort is unfairly balanced.

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Light farming complaint threads.
book farming complaint threads
(Insert encounter) is to Hard threads.
alexandrite complaint threads (farming alex specifically. Not materia rng)
hunts, twine, coat qq.
etc. Etc. Etc. Just look at general forums. Nothing but qq all day eryday.

people complain about rng. They complain about stuff that isn't rng. They complain about grinds. They complain about not enough grinds.

People complain about everything. Changing the game to fit your specific desires pisses off people just like current aspects of the game piss you off. 100s of thousands of players. SE tries to make a variety of content so all have some stuff they might like to do, but no one will like all of it. And that's OK.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Light farming complaint threads.
book farming complaint threads
(Insert encounter) is to Hard threads.
alexandrite complaint threads (farming alex specifically. Not materia rng)
hunts, twine, coat qq.
etc. Etc. Etc. Just look at general forums. Nothing but qq all day eryday.

people complain about rng. They complain about stuff that isn't rng. They complain about grinds. They complain about not enough grinds.

People complain about everything. Changing the game to fit your specific desires pisses off people just like current aspects of the game piss you off. 100s of thousands of players. SE tries to make a variety of content so all have some stuff they might like to do, but no one will like all of it. And that's OK.

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And people complain about complaining :)