DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

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Originally Posted by Lithera

We can already spam RoT/Doom Spike constantly with Invigorate use longer than most other DPS can sustain AoE damage.

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Thats not true at all. BRD, WAR, NIN and MNK all can sustain their AoE longer than DRG, assuming you are dealing max dmg with doomspike spam (lolRoT).

Its basically DRG>BRD>WAR>NIN>MNK when it comes to AoE costs (which is fair because thats also somewhat how the AOE dps ranks).

Its all situational. Dummy tests are garbage and always have been. Boss fights arent dummies so theres no practical relation at all.

Show me several parses from several different encounters all indicating that DRG is noticeably inferior to Mnk/Nin. My only requirements are reasonable cause to believe players are of similar gear and skill levels.

In fact, parses from an FC raid static would fulfill that requirement. I just need some from all ex primals as well as all coil turns. A few samples of each will do. Dont worry ill wait.

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Originally Posted by Zaranghae

I don't understand why people are shouting for a M DEF buff for dragoon. It doesn't help our dps at all. Maybe if we get cleaved or some kind of magic attack hits us during a jump we get 10-30% less damage dealt but how does that help in terms of dps? It doesn't seem like it would be a viable solution for survival either since we're not tanks. Also in the case of AOEs we do receive healing from our healers, so how does MDEF make the job that much better?

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Get to t11, get hit with the fireball, tell me drg doesn't need an mdef buff.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

First off: DRG is the easiest job to play IMO

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No, it is the hardest of the three melee DPS. Monk and Ninja are tons easier than Dragoon. Also, Dragoons can't come close to us Monks unless we're bad and they play perfectly. Also that is the thing, Dragoon doesn't get rewarded for perfect play. Ninja and Monk gets their power for free, Dragoon has to work for it and still don't deal near DPS.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

No, it is the hardest of the three melee DPS. Monk and Ninja are tons easier than Dragoon. Also, Dragoons can't come close to us Monks unless we're bad and they play perfectly. Also that is the thing, Dragoon doesn't get rewarded for perfect play. Ninja and Monk gets their power for free, Dragoon has to work for it and still don't deal near DPS.

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You're dead wrong, Ninja is the hardest. I can say that after getting to level 46, where all the Ninjutsu skills are fully open and the last real attack on GCD is added. You have 3 different attack combos, one of which being a DoT, one being a slashing defense debuff (and healing potency drop), and the last being straight up damage. Add into that Ninjutsu, of which you have a total of 6 different skills and 1 of which must always be up in order to help maximize DPS (and thus have to reuse every 3rd Ninjutsu usage). Ninjutsu in general is always off GCD so it's going to be used between moves every 20s, sometimes the command lasting long enough to where you could have gotten another GCD move in (but you can't, since it messes up the Ninjutsu). So that's 3 GCD combos and 6 off GCD usable moves, almost all of which are useful (2 sadly get outclassed easily). Try pulling out the correct combinations for maximum DPS without a guide, it's going to get ridiculously hard (plus Ninjutsu is easily messed up on).

Compare that to the 2 damage combo rotations for DRG, and you're telling me DRG is the hardest? You're delusional. MNK would be easiest, DRG middle ground, NIN hardest. That's from me having leveled all 3 of the classes, one of which I main (MNK).

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

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Ninja is really easy, people are trying to make it seem harder than it is. I've played Ninja in multiple content, coil, st, etc. Far easier than Dragoon. If you have a Warrior, you'll never use Dancing Edge. On top of which their rotation is extremely similar to Monk's. Only thing that is hard on Ninja is Mudra due to server latency, but other then that really easy.

Actually Ninja's Dancing Edge is easier than Monk as if a second Monk uses Dragon Kick you have to tell yourself not to use it but with Ninja you wont and just use Aeolian Edge.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Ninja is really easy, people are trying to make it seem harder than it is. I've played Ninja in multiple content, coil, st, etc. Far easier than Dragoon. If you have a Warrior, you'll never use Dancing Edge. On top of which their rotation is extremely similar to Monk's. Only thing that is hard on Ninja is Mudra due to server latency, but other then that really easy.

Actually Ninja's Dancing Edge is easier than Monk as if a second Monk uses Dragon Kick you have to tell yourself not to use it but with Ninja you wont and just use Aeolian Edge.

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You can have a combo within a combo, within a combo. In the middle of any GCD combo, you can Ninjutsu combo to Suiton, then immediately use Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, and then finish the first combo. Anything that disturbs the Ninjutsu combo on your end can instantly destroy that combo, putting it on cooldown for 20s if you don't have the last NIN move (I don't have it yet, don't know what it's caused) or have already used it to reset the combo. This can stop you from putting on Huton (15% attack speed boost), Suiton to allow you to use both Sneak and Trick Attacks outside of battle, or Doton if you need a damage AoE field. That's at least 20s without your DPS being up to par, compared to maybe 3-6 seconds on DRG if you miss the rear attack on Impulse Drive or Heavy Thrust.

So again, NIN is currently the hardest melee DPS, not DRG.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You can have a combo within a combo, within a combo. In the middle of any GCD combo, you can Ninjutsu combo to Suiton, then immediatelyuse Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, and then finish the first combo. Anything that disturbs the Ninjutsu combo on your end can instantly destroy that combo, putting it on cooldown for 20s if you don't have the last NIN move (I don't have it yet, don't know what it's caused) or have already used it to reset the combo. This can stop you from putting on Huton (15% attack speed boost), Suiton to allow you to use both Sneak and Trick Attacks outside of battle, or Doton if you need a damage AoE field. That's at least 20s without your DPS being up to par, compared to maybe 3-6 seconds on DRG if you miss the rear attack on Impulse Drive or Heavy Thrust.

So again, NIN is currently the hardest melee DPS, not DRG.

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No. Ninja may have more demanding input requirements (i.e. multiple ones) but execution and number of buttons to push is not what makes a role difficult, not at endgame. The assumption here is that the player is actually half decent and has his rotation down perfectly, and that is not an unfair assumption to make.

Your issues are with execution and actually pressing buttons. That does not make Ninja harder as a dps class than dragoon at endgame. your dps output is down to you; yes, lag can screw your mudras, especially if you're mashing buttons with your eyes closed, but the same is true with rollback on HT or impulse drive. Ninja has no positional requirements. It is not punished anywhere near as harshly as Dragoon for a missed attack. The cost per mistake for a dragoon is extortionate, much higher than it is for a monk or a ninja; that mistake may result from something that is beyond your ability to control, given the positional dependancy that dragoons have. And of course, the dps ceiling for dragoons is far lower than ninjas and monks.

That means that even if you hit everything perfectly, hitting every positional, you will still do less damage than a ninja who messed up his rotations a few times. if you miss a positional, your dps will plummet, by a greater amount than the same mistake would cost a monk. Positionals do not matter for a ninja. It is entirely possible for you to play perfectly as a dragoon only making one mistake, and end up not doing nearly as much damage as a monk or a ninja who screwed up his rotation a half dozen times. That makes having a mediocre monk/ninja better for a static than having a very good dragoon. There is no reward for the extra risk that rolling a dragoon entails. None.

When you evaluate performance of DPS'ers at endgame, its based on one thing; how much damage they were able to do. It is harder for a dragoon to do respectable damage then it is for any other class; they are punished far more harshly for mistakes, their optimal dps ceiling is low, they have the lowest survivability at endgame, high reliance on b4b and moves that lock you in place… all those add up to the worst dps class for endgame.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

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This guy gets it. Monk or Ninja messes up? Slight DPS decrease. Dragoon messes up? Their attacks don't work. Again, Dragoons are not rewarded enough for perfect play despite being harder than Monk or Ninja where as they get free power.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

You mean the ONE T13 clear? FFS... Don't really want to read back through the first few pages but either this thread or one of the others had a DRG who cleared T10-11 and his group was close to T12. Again most of us could give two craps about min/maxers who want to steamroll all the content in a week...for the general raiding population there is no problem with DRG.

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I don't know where you're getting your info from but there have been more than one t13 kill. (I'm on t12 as a Dragoon. I know a Dragoon who has killed t12. That doesn't mean there aren't better options.)

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Even you minority min/maxers can't execute PERFECT combos in every encounter. There will always be mechanics that push you out of range or put you in positions where your positionals are impossible for a few seconds or more (Try managing Disembowel/CT against Kraken in Sastasha HM. You have to bounce to the tentacles to put it on Kraken). In combat right now I'm not witnessing that big a gap between me and the other melee DPS. I could give two shits what numbers against a dummy say.

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Sastasha HM hardly is a good example of a dungeon where DPS would make a difference in the first place.
If a mechanic forces out out of position and you adapt and make the most of your DPS while handling the mechanics, that can be considered a perfect rotation for said encounter.
But even in this situation DRG gets shafted the most, MNK can live with not hitting the boss for a couple of seconds and still be able to retain their GL stacks and their DPS won't suffer further than the actual disconnect from the boss. DRG rotations however are stricter. In a situation where disconnects happen, disembowel and heavy thrust timers will get messed up and you will lose a couple hits worth of HT and Dis every time.
Sure, MNK may lose Dragon kick and Twin snakes, but they account for a smaller chunk of their DPS than HT and Dis do for DRG.

Again, we're working our way back to the issue of being punished too much for messing up your rotation even once without any real incentive for excellent play to balance it out.

I don't think DRG needs adjusting too much. The only change I can see being a necessary one to make is in regards to positionals. When MNK/NIN have positional attacks and they miss positioning they lose the potency bonus, but don't have their combo interrupted or additional effects negated. IMO it should be the same with DRG. Aren't able to get behind the mob when you disembowel, you should still get the debuff applied and combo to chaos thrust, you just wont get the potency increase. That change by itself would make a huge amount of difference to managing DRG combos and rotation. Will it put them on par with MNK/NIN? Probably not. But it would be a wonderful step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

.for the general raiding population there is no problem with DRG.

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You do not balance classes based on the 99%.

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Originally Posted by RhaegarFFXIFenrir

I don't think DRG needs adjusting too much. The only change I can see being a necessary one to make is in regards to positionals...

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For me, the position dependency really is the least of my concern. I know my rotation well enough, and the only time I miss it is if it can't be done such as Sastasha HM boss. So far, the coil bosses I have seen allow our combos to be pulled off if we know the fight, which as I said before is something a drg will always have to know better than the other melee. That's fine. Challenge accepted, and all.

The one thing that ticks me off when people claim we are just bad at what we do and/or lazy like a post pages back on this thread, is the mdef thing. That is the one thing about us that is absolutely broken and entirely beyond our control.

My i53 50LTW is not my main craft. It has 419 Mdef.
My i105 50SCH is my second best geared job. It has 545 Mdef.
My i110 50DRG is my best geared job in SCoB gear and sanded sol. It has 326 Mdef.

Our hp pool isn't large enough to combat that. There is so much unavoidable magic damage in these coil turns that it is impossible not to notice how much more a healer has to pay attention to my hp bar. They shouldn't have to do that. I'm not a tank.

This is why I'm rather grumpy about all this. Before, we brought some things to the table that made selecting us for a raid group still a sensible decision despite this glaring issue. Our burst, our faster ramp up and our bard buff. Now there is a job that brings all of that, without our handicap, with superior numbers from what people are reporting. While established raid groups might not force a drg out (although some probably will!), I really don't see dragoons being invited to progression pushing teams if things remain as they are.

We need to be able to bring something to the table again that the other guys need. And it'd sure be nice to ditch our WARNING: Weak to Magic label. Right now, that is the only unique thing we have to offer. And why in the world would anyone want that?

On positionals: Positional requirements could be a little more lenient. I didn't realize how the mob turning would mess up a DRG until I leveled one to 50. It's a neat job concept, the armor looks cool but yeah, the gameplay is something else.

On jumps: I'm willing to meet people halfway on this and ask for a damage reduction while the jump animation is in play. Full out invincibility is abusable, but damage reduction would basically be an increase to survivability. Make it something like a 15-20% damage decrease and have certain attacks (Hellfire/Judgment Bolt/Diamond Dust/etc) ignore the effect.

On M.Def: Definitely increase this. This is more tied to the type of armors DRG has access to, so it would take increasing the M.Def on these armors.

I agree with the OP regarding DRG. I'm happy to see so many others have responded to this thread with similar opinions, that DRG is weaker than other melee classes in MANY situations. The few where DRG is stronger (back up tanking things that don't do magic damage) far underweigh the things DRG struggles on.

It is my hope that diehard DRG will be rewarded for our suffering in the upcoming Xpack and cap raise with new abilities which trump the other melee DPS classes, what with it being centered around Ishgard and all.

I dunno people seem to underestimate the damage buff to bard, and the fact they don't need TP as bad as a monk.
This means ninja + dragoon + caster + bard, will prob net the most overall damage for a long fight. (when you include buffs to each other, the need for limit breaks, and class diversity for faster gearing/lb gaining).
While using a monk instead if you really need the int debuff to survive some mechanic.

I mean my group was able to beat turn 10-11 and 12.... with no crafted gear, with no new weapons (next week yay) using ninja/drg/caster/bard. Hell our ninja didn't even have a 115 weapon.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

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Post of the thread right here.

Something people seems to forget is this:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Balance shouldn't be made according to "What if people fail to do it correctly ?", it should made according to "What can this class achieve if it's played to its maximum potential ?" a.k.a evenly geared and evenly skilled player brings relatively close damage (which isn't the case right now) and some form of utility (Mantra > anything Dragoon brings to the table).

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Some of my suggestions:

1. Swap the dot/debuff of Phlembotomize and Disembowel.
(This would help with the initial rotation issue of the mob moving around and making them miss HT)
This also allows for their to be a BENEFIT for bring x2 DRG. Meaning one drg doesn't have to waste a GCD putting up phlembotomize. (Kind of like monk w/ dragon kick or ninja w/ the slashing debuff)

2. Have Feint become and OFF GCD skill on Perfect Balance timer, grants an impulse rush buff that waves positionals for 7 seconds

3. Have Keen Flurry grant the trait "Dragon Skin" (while drg) allowing them to absorb 5% of magic damage taken as hp.

4. Make Piercing Talon off GCD still costs some TP.

5. Have Chaos thrust "Crit procs" grant the drg a chance to throw a free piercing talon.

Any of the above would have a nice beneficial effect on DRG's play style. Not saying implement all of these, but some of them would be pretty helpful to bring dragoon up to par.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Some of my suggestions:

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No to all of this. Dragoons need to be made more Dragoon like with more potency and less CD on their jumps. Right now they are just Lancers who jump once in awhile.

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

No to all of this. Dragoons need to be made more Dragoon like with more potency and less CD on their jumps. Right now they are just Lancers who jump once in awhile.

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1. Every job is like that herpderp. Paladin is just a gladiator with a few extra skills... monk is a pugilist with a few extra skills... get the picture?\

2. So what you are saying is you wouldn't like being able to not have to use a piercing debuff if your GET STUCK with another dragoon?

3. The only way we'd become more "dragoon" like is if lancer was more dragoon like to begin with.

4. Please ignore this guy as he doesn't grasp the issue.

This needs to happen now!
I'm so sick of one of the most awesome FF jobs being useless in this game.

Another problem I see with Dragoon is that they are the only melee DPS that does not gain attack speed. Right now if they got an attack speed buff like Monk and Ninja is they would run out of TP too quickly due to their TP costs being so high. Okay, they have high potencies so their TP costs are justified? Wait, Ninja has just as high potencies with the TP costs of Monk. Along with the Mdef increase, Dragoon either need lower TP costs and/or an attack speed buff or higher potencies.

I've had fun leveling dragoon, but looking at other classes I'd have a hard time justifying it as my main, secondary, third, fourth, or what have you- a lot of risk in life and dps for what seems to be no gain.

Perhaps it is my ilvl70 dragoon (lol) inexperience, but it seems besides buffing Bard and getting to jump you'd be better off going as something else.

In addition to the suggestions regarding potencies and swapping effects, I would also love to have a wider arsenal of jumps or aerial attacks. More jumps please :D

The jump animations are still broken. Why is it that I can get hit by an aoe during the jump, when I'm off screen and in theory out of range of any attack? Plus being the only melee class with animation lock really puts a damper on aggressive play.

Can someone tell me if you use the jumps on Turn 11 do you get hit by the baraero field?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Can someone tell me if you use the jumps on Turn 11 do you get hit by the baraero field?

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You can use them safely. Even the ones which close the gap.

What really irks me is the low Magic Resistance on Dragoons. Like the person a few posts before me mentioned, the amount of HP (a few hundred at best) a Dragoon has over other DPS classes doesn't justify it enough to have such low MR.

I remember reading somewhere (I could be wrong) that Yoshida didn't want Dragoons to have high MR along with their high Defense because they could forget about dodging mechanics and keep on attacking. But this is totally untrue.

[Using T11 as an example] Nerve Gas hits 2k-2.5k damage to a monk/bard/ninja whereas dragoons are being hit 3k-3.5k (from what I've witnessed). Even if they raised the MR to the same level as the other DPS classes, 2k-2.5k is not ideal damage to receive so no, they wouldn't be able to just stand and attack willy-nilly. What it helps is the unavoidable AoEs from the sphere and Nerve Cloud.

As a side note, Nerve Cloud took 5.8K damage, taking me to 400HP... and if I used Blood for Blood beforehand it was an instant death (6.3k damage). All other DPS classes had at least 1.2k-1.4k HP left.

I've been beaten silly by unavoidable magic attacks and the healers have enough added stress as it is than to worry about me on top of it... >.>

The problem of positional skills/combos messing up our DPS is also rather annoying but not as much as the MR issue (because if you can bring your A game you can relieve some of the DPS loss). What I don't like however, is being a burden for my healers. :/

Lots of people still like their DRG but that's not what this thread is about, some people didn't get that. There are also more people (DRGs in this case) who don't use a parser so they don't have the slightest idea how they do compared to others or how to improve their own DPS (same goes for other DPS too obviously).

If we are talking utility and DPS, DRGs just aren't on par with the other two melee. Add to that the small utilitiy they bring and you really would wish some changes would happen. My question is if SE can change DRG without adding other jobs' features. I hope SE will take a serious look into our current class/job system. DRK having no base class is no coincidence. It allows them to create a job with unique features. Let's hope our current jobs will benefit from this too.

Right now the only options are: reduce tp cost or adjust potencies.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Right now the only options are: reduce tp cost or adjust potencies.

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Those are band-aids on bullet holes. I don't see why those are the only two options, either.

They can't figure out what to do with Dragoon because there isn't a clear idea as to what kind of gameplay style they're even aiming for with Lancer and Dragoon.

The core Lancer abilities themselves are just a mishmash of archaic mechanics from 1.0 that they -tried- to translate into 2.0 and on. It wasn't bad in the beginning but it shows its age more now that the game has become a lot more active in terms of combat.

The problem is that Lancer and Dragoon are already established. Any change they make to -any- of the job's mechanics will go under heavy scrutiny from both development teams and the player base. There are people who like the core mechanics and do not want to see it changed drastically and vice versa. All the while worrying about balance issues, party compatibility, etc.

The first thing they need to do is figure out what they want the job to do in the first place. "Do combos and jump a bit" is not something they should base the job's tool set on.

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Originally Posted by Dragoonite

The first thing they need to do is figure out what they want the job to do in the first place. "Do combos and jump a bit" is not something they should base the job's tool set on.

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Non gameplay balance wise, I feel like dragoons aren't dragoon-ish enough. Iirc game lore wise, they're dragon slayers who hunt dragons using stolen dragon powers. What they got as dragoons are all jump related, so I guess that's what it takes to kill dragons: jumping on their backs mario style. But is that really all? Copying flying dragons makes you jump higher? Apparently stealing an eagle's eye gives you penguin powers. What about fire breathing? Not sure if dfd counts. I really have to wonder what dragoons will get on level cap increase. More jumps or other dragon powers?

Back to balance issue: I'm not a career dragoon but it is among my most used DPS outside of blm flare spam in dungeons. Having disembowel positional requirement be unlocked would really be helpful to me but would that even be enough for career dragoons at the highest level of progression? Would potency buffs and relaxed positional reqs be an overkill? I feel like the standard dragoon rotation is perfect in a rigid way (lines up so perfectly). Messing with buffs and debuffs timers in anyway (timer resets or extensions) sounds like it can get convoluted to me.

Jump cooldown reduced from 40 sec to 30 sec. ~ 4-5 dps increase. (Also makes better use of power surge cooldown time)
Heavy thrust damage buff increased from 15% to 20% ~ 22.5 dps increase. (Assuming 450 dps sustained on the more difficult fights)

There we go DRG fixed.
Jump animation lock is fine as l2p etc.
MDEF could use a slight buff (I'm currently at 6800 hp on turn 13 to be comfortable with incoming AOE's whilst other dps are at ~6200hp)

My list:

MDEF buff must come. Barring that, some skill-based mitigation, something like Manaward that rewards foreknowledge of a magical attack. DRG really shouldn't be the first and only member to die to unavoidable AoE in progression, it's really dumb. You have to take extra precautions to keep DRG alive without any actual balance reasoning behind it. The fact they can Keen Flurry certain mechanics and be near tank levels of survivability is no excuse as those are rare (BLM can Manawall and completely negate two physical attacks, while having good MDEF and additional mitigation with Manaward and no one calls it OP).

Sustained buff so DRG + MNK/NIN is roughly equal to MNK + MNK or MNK + NIN. Basically, DRG should not noticeably be below another melee in a 2 melee comp, and more or less they should be interchangeable. As it is right now, this has to be done or at the end of the day people will flock to MNK + MNK while undergeared and while overgeared, especially in a situation like right now where we're mostly riding off of max iLVL from last patch to clear content and gearing differences aren't an issue.

Less positional punishment. The potency loss is enough, doing almost half damage in one attack is already painful enough ... currently if you miss a positional you have to A. just keep going while forgoing the huge HT damage bonus or forgoing the strongest, most vital combo, Chaos Thrust combo or B. retry that positional. Not too terribly rarely, if you missed a positional, you may miss it again due to the boss turning further, or having to catch up to the enemy, and heaven help you if you miss your positionals twice or more in a row. You've effectively become terrible, and sometimes mechanics just force this to happen.

I'm actually relatively fine with the survivability issues you can control like B4B and Jump locking, the fights are scripted enough you can usually know at any time when a deadly AoE is about to happen and plan accordingly given enough practice. I will say I don't think getting hit by unavoidable stuff while under B4B should spell instant death though, which currently it can in i110 gear. Maybe tone down B4B's damage taken effect enough that you're discouraged from using it during mechanics for your healers' sakes but not so forbidden that you have to effectively throttle it for a particularly long time or cut it drastically short before big damage, as it is right now.

Can we get some kind of response from someone involved?

Is this a discussion on the Japanese forums as well?

We deserve some kind of insight into this matter because enough is enough.

maybe wait to see what they plan for the 3.0... i means what you ask a lot of you is to be equal to the ninja and monk in terms of dps... when, let's be honest outside the fact that the rotation of skill is quite long, the class by itself is quite simple in comparaison of the other.
miss a ninjutsu it's 20 second lost, loose the GL it's about 18 second of dps lost.
i admit that dragoon can need love, but i think most of the trouble is into the gameplay of the one using dragoon. other point, you forget the +10% of damage for the bard, that not something that must be overlook.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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I believe you're missing the fundamental problem of the class, although it might "simpler" in your eyes because of less button presses then those are needed for MNK or NIN.
MNK and NIN are not punished for missing a mechanic or screwing up they continue soar with DPS and maybe only lose out on 5-10 overall DPS for a mistake.
They simply do not need to play perfect and continue to breeze by with amazing DPS

DRGs need to play absolutely perfect to do their DPS and even during a perfection execution of the rotation it comes no where CLOSE to MNK or NIN.

How is it fair that regardless of how well you do, mathematically you'll never reach the other classes? Is that fun? No it's not.

NINs get their ninjustsu every 30 seconds and that is their class defining actions.

Why are DRGs' jumps on a 90s? 120? 180?

How is that fair?

I could continue but just read the topic over; there are fantastic points brought up by others that really delve deep into the problem of the DRG class.

And that is it's simply not up to par of other DPS.

Remember WAR was inferior to PLD in 2.0
Buffed

BLM was "worthless and irrelevant" in SCOB in 2.2
Buffed.

DRG is "worthless and irrelevant" in FCOB in 2.4
???

*sighs* i like people talking of jobs that they have try really...
Ninja ninjutsu have 20 second of CD, one of them are simply a huge lost of dps if you mess up, it's huton. when you miss the trick attack it's a 60 second cd lost... if you mess up a ninjutsu exept when you you burn kassastu for cover up, but 180 second CD.

now let's talk of the monk, if you mess up the position you loose dps, if you move too far from the boss and loose GL you will simply have a dps inferior at anybody for 18+ second.

DRG have 2 positional skill... impluse drive that need to be done from back and heavy thrust that needed to be done from side. some skill have already did receive a boost of potency like full thrust that now have 330 potency instead of the 300 from the 2.0.

i want to add something, every melee dps, for get the best dps possible... ask to play perfectly! not only the dragoon. other point, dragoon up the damage of the bard (you always have a bard in the team). my only grips with dragoon is he mdef and the lack of... badass from him skill.... jump is clearly not enough for define the whole jobs. from what i have heard you can expect some change about this in the 3.0...

ps: DRG is not worthless and irrelevant... it's the player that make it look like this, i doubt they had the ninja without double check the other dps, the game balance is not as bad as people are saying it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

maybe wait to see what they plan for the 3.0.

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I hope we dont have to wait that long.. for a response.

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Originally Posted by Seoki

Remember WAR was inferior to PLD in 2.0
Buffed

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When it was, "oh goddamn a Warrior" in every single dungeon, trial, and raid, there was a problem. Rightfully so.

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BLM was "worthless and irrelevant" in SCOB in 2.2
Buffed.

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Remember how it was worthless and irrelevant for anything beside BCoB:T4 and Bray speed runs? Rightfully so.

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DRG is "worthless and irrelevant" in FCOB in 2.4
???

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DRG is having a hard(er) time now that bosses like to randomly turn around but this isn't a new thing. It happened in SCoB as well, Turns 2, and 4, in particular. I think it would be silly to say DRG won't get some kind of helping hand but I don't really believe they'll simply remove positionals. Rather they'll make the ones they have now stronger. Which will probably have the same effect as BLM being bottom of the barrel to BLM being king of all saiyans.