Well, they also didn't have a warrior keeping storm's eye up so that number could have been even higher with that in mind. And where are these drgs who do 470 with no buffs at all and how long are these parses? With buffs I pull about 470 or so if I parse till I run dry on TP. I must suck if I'm supposed to do that without buffs. :<Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
It just feels like ninja brings so much more to the party as a whole as well. They bring a 10% damage debuff for 10sec every minute for the whole party, and goad also means less tp song for the bard to play meaning they don't take dps hits. Even if they dps about the same, ninja wins on sheer utility while still outputting equal or more dps. Only exception I see to this would be maybe if you have 2 bards in your party disembowel becomes the better choice.
Ninja damage insane over monk
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11-01-2014, 06:56 PMSolarMisae
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11-01-2014, 07:10 PMdday3sixDragoon buffs Bard damage, something people often seem to overlook. I know we're talking individual damage, but it's something to consider with the question of why play Dragoon. Ninja with similar damage, yet more utility is imo more likely to replace Monk in raids rather then Dragoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarMisae
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11-01-2014, 07:10 PMsilentwindfr
don't forget that the ninja is already create with the 3.0 in the mind, we don't know how will change the jobs like drg or mnk with the 3.0... without forget a lot of this jobs have still skill coming from the V1 that wasn't very balanced and such.
like i have said on another thread, theorycrafting is nice, but it's still only theorycraft. only a small portion of the playerbase will be able to pull the perfect cycle all the time. play what you like with your friend that all.
good ninja will probably, but like said, it will be harder than it seems, it's not without reason that ninja have almost no position recquired for him combo... it's because your mind will need to learn and master the jutsu inside the cycle while avoiding aoe and respecting pattern. dummy parseer are nice, but they are still far from reality!Quote:
Originally Posted by dday3six
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11-01-2014, 07:11 PMLeonus
I'll have to find the video.
The 10% damage buff mire or less equates to the disembowel that drgs keep up at (almost) all times. It's only once a minute too. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome, but not head over heels in comparison to what drg does for brd with disembowel or what mnks can do for each other.
Goad is awesome, no denying that. Though it should not replace brds doing tp regeneration song. It's once every two minutes and more than likely will have a priority system along with it. Tanks if they need it 》mnk/drg/other nin lol 》 brd ( let's be honest, if a brd asks for goad, chances are the other dps are running low on their tp reserves as well).
I mean, nin is very good ( love the job ) but drg will still have a place. I also really like drg. If you think about it, if you have a brd in you pt, you may want a drg and nin and not necessarily a nin and mnk. There is more party chemistry there. -
11-01-2014, 07:21 PMdday3sixA fair point. However I believe many people have issues with Mudra timing because they are so use to mashing. I compare it to Paladins who are able to Stun in fights. They have learned if they slow down, just a touch rather than mashing for the next skill, they are better able to use Shield Bash.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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11-01-2014, 07:22 PMSolarMisaeYeah, I can see ninja/drg working very well if you have a bard. Gotta wonder if that would result in higher party dps...Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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11-02-2014, 08:26 AMShaolinMikeExcept that it benefits the entire party, not just one job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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11-02-2014, 11:29 AMKalamari
Finished leveling my NIN yesterday, some gripes I've got from a MNK PoV:
- Far superior sustained AoE from Doton + enhanced Death Blossom (IB4 AoE doesn't matter at all in this game, yadadee yadadoo)
- High burst and lower ramp up time than MNK, Huton can be buffed pre-fight and dots applied within 3 GCDs after pull, if you got a Warrior you can also skip applying slash debuff
- Almost no position requirements, but their rotation is complex enough to forgive this one
- Sustained single target very close to MNK, probably higher when mechanics force MNK to drop GL
- Knife Throw (rarely Fuma Shuriken) as ranged damage options when forced out of melee or kiting
All these above I can forgive to an extend, however Trick Attack is for all intends and purposes overpowered in its current form. Near MNK level sustained dps coupled with a 10% group damage buff, brings NIN's damage potential way past that of a MNK and DRG. Not to mention it serves as the games only raid damage cooldown, which is simply amazing for Titan Heart like boss mechanics, on a fricking 1 minute cooldown. MNK/DRG/BLM/SMN/BRD have nothing comparable in their arsenals. A 5% damage buff every 1 minute would still be powerful but more reasonable.
That said, it was probably intentional to release NIN in a slightly overtuned state, partly to compensate for the lack of experience players still have playing NIN. -
11-02-2014, 02:34 PMLeonusI know, but it's once a minute and not almost the entire fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaolinMike
boost the entire parties damage for 1 minute in a 6 minute fight.
Boost a party members damage for 5 minutes and 45 seconds out of a 6 minute fight.
people are really overreacting to it. All the unnecessary attention is gonna get it an unwarranted nerf.
Give it some time before people call it broken. -
11-02-2014, 07:02 PMStarkbeaumontThis, so much!Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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11-02-2014, 08:38 PMSongJooheeCouldn't of said it better myself. Already has incredibly high DPS on it's own, add in the DPS it's boosting other players, lack of positioning, decent AOE and no risk of losing GL3, I can only suspect it will get nerfed... Or everyone else will be buffed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalamari
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11-02-2014, 09:05 PMFirepower
I think the biggest advantage ninja is holding over the other melee DPS at the moment is not its DPS but the fact it's run speed is faster making it a far more obvious choice for raid fights simply because its much easier to avoid all the AOE's. Things like titan's bombs, plumes and landslides can sometimes be a nightmare if you are not paying attention but as ninja you have easily a bit more reaction time.
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11-03-2014, 03:07 AMEphierThey have one gap closer on a 60 second cool down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firepower
Monk gap closer has a 30 second cooldown.
Dragoon has 2 real gap closers with a 60 and 120 second cooldown and a pseudo gap closer in elusive jump on a 180 second cd.
If you were having trouble dodging on monk and dragoon, ninja movement speed will not save you. -
11-03-2014, 03:15 AMLeonusReal Talk, true story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
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11-03-2014, 03:46 AMAtreides
I think the nerf screamer should actually play ninja to see how it's not just ololol no positioning DPS, Ninja is quite difficult to play perfectly because it requires way more attention and you can screw things up easily.
If you just look at rogue, yes it does look easy indeed. -
11-03-2014, 04:17 AMXheh
A monk can silence, stun, and make heals more affective on all party members around them. Wouldn't that give them just as much utility as a ninja?
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11-07-2014, 02:57 AMalsims2007
Ninja doesn't really need a nerf. In boss fights it still doesnt match a monk. A ninja will be top in fates and dungeons. Fates because positionals dont matter. If a monk has aggro he will lose aggro to a ninja due to the terrible potency from missing every positional with the occasional 1 or 2 from stunning. Dungeons due to next to no ramp up time. A monk isnt using PB on random trash mobs so it will slow the dungeon as he loses gl3 and builds it back up between every mob pull.
Monks get an extra 22% damage over ninjas and they may had closed the gap but monk is still top single target dps -
11-07-2014, 04:06 AMSigiria
The only advantage I see to the nin over the mnk is the fact he can go straight to the 20% skillspeed bonus, which is useful only when the boss jump a lot. After doing some testing Nin dps is really close to mnk dps, it might look really poweful due to the big numbers but it's actually not that much when you see just how isane is the auto attack damages of a monk over a long fight.
Monk will take advantage when it can keep up GL3, Ninja will take advantage when the boss move around a lot. Pretty balanced, the only thing that will actually make a difference is as always the player's ability to play his job. I'll always take a DRG that know how to play his job over a NIN or MNK that think he is the best dps around when he can barely take the enmity over a SMN.
Game allow you to do every instances with a balanced setup, and that's actually cool. -
11-07-2014, 07:34 AMkensatsu
one question about stat for the ninja :
because of the skillspeed buff, what would be better
gear it with crit, deter advoid skillspeed or try to get a lot of skillspeed anyway ? -
11-07-2014, 08:31 AMSpookyGhostSo, I sort of agree with this but I also sort of disagree. FFXIV is not a fighting game, a MOBA, etc. where the meta shifts constantly and anything seen as "OP" can be beaten by better strategies. FFXIV is a cookie cutter MMO, it is intentionally really simple and therefore it's really easy to see what jobs have advantages over other jobs. I do think people are overreacting a bit, though - because while NIN brings different utility than MNK, it doesn't bring the same utility and both job's utility is useful in any raid scenario. Meanwhile, DRG only buffs BRD which only matters if you have 2x BRD in your party because otherwise you'd be better off with a MNK (GL3 sustain dependent). DRG's positionals are also massively more important than MNK's, which for some reason everyone tends to overlook - if you miss a HT or ID you have completely botched your rotation and need to start fixing it or completely starting over and losing a lot of DPS. MNKs, meanwhile, just do a bit less damage if they happen to miss a positional and of course NINs only have 1 positional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
If any DPS is completely boned by NIN, it's DRG and if you would like to see proof you can head over to the Rotation Reborn thread to check out all the crying. No amount of time will change the disparities between NIN and DRG. NIN vs MNK is just w/e because having both gives you more raid utility (still don't get why people stopped using SMNs in early progression but that's a discussion for another time). -
11-07-2014, 07:13 PMEmpressiai would prefer det crit as usual unless someone figured an optimal rotation with sks and critQuote:
Originally Posted by kensatsu
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11-07-2014, 08:13 PMSolarMisaeThis is pretty much my only gripe. I've swapped over to ninja (much to my dismay after spending million on nexus for my drg...) and it's definitely stronger, at least dpswise not counting their utility. At i105 (my left side has a lot of i100 and an i90 piece) over a 5:30min parse (basically till I ran dry on tp, I mucked up my invigorate timing too so it could have gone longer) I pulled 425 on my best run on ninja. At the same ilvl my DRG (and I'd like to think I'm good with drg) couldn't do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
Plus the 10% buff to your whole party every 60sec and goad for your other melee/tanks seems to good compared to disembowel which is said to only be better if you have two strong bards. I don't have any numbers that support NIN is better than DRG but everyone seems to think it is. -
11-08-2014, 12:08 AMMaero
Well heres to hoping 3.0 dragoon will have a huge increase in damage :)
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11-08-2014, 08:26 PMSolarMisaeDragoon needs something sooner than 3.0. I want something by 2.45 or 2.48 at the latest. They made it so useless compared to ninja...our crappy m.def hurts so bad in the new coils and our damage just doesn't compare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maero
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11-08-2014, 08:41 PMDanbo05
I'm sure everything will be balanced out by 3.0, with the new skills and traits that will be added from lv50-60.
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11-10-2014, 03:29 AMSequoraI mean NIN will also be getting new skills from 50-60. I am hoping for some revamping to unused skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbo05
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11-10-2014, 06:21 PMKadasIt's alright, you only have to wait 6 months for that to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbo05
That is nothing, right? right?
hmm. -
11-11-2014, 03:28 AMMaeroYeah and some have argued drg does most St damage. I just think that to be false.Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarMisae
I played dragoon as well and can definately tell the dmg difference that NIN brings. Something for sure needs to be changed, just watch Monks then complaining that they need a buff..... lol -
11-12-2014, 09:19 AMTheWaywardWind
People are overreacting, which happens every time a new class is released.
And sure enough, the complaint comes from a Monk.
People are seriously overrating Ninjas. They're not here to steal your precious 1st DPS spot, so calm down a little bit.
People with extensive parsing tests have proven again and again that Ninja does not surpass Monk in terms of total DPS. Even with perfect rotation, Ninjas still fall short. Granted, you could argue Monks have a bit of a harder time what with GL and positionals, but if you want to be the best at something, you're not going to get it from pressing 1-2-3,1-2-3,1-2-3.
When I play as both Monk and Ninja, I seriously have to focus. They're both two jobs where you can't be like a BLM or SMN and say, "brb, tuning out for a sec" while you mash fire or keep your DOTs up. You need to watch, position, and react accordingly. You need to use some skills as soon as they're available and use them as they are available or you're wasting precious DPS.
No, positionals are not harder than Mudra, and vice versa. Moving two feet to the left is not mind-numbingly difficult, and neither is pressing a button in the right order. TBH, both Ninjas AND Monks overrate how difficult their jobs are. They aren't. Period. -
11-12-2014, 02:06 PMEmpressia
LOL at peeps still believing MNKs are difficult jobs, its the easiest of all melee class.
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11-12-2014, 04:58 PMOoshimaDet-skillspeed for Ninja. I'm running at 488 skill speed so that the GCD with Huton is exactly at 2.0s. I have tried lower skill speeds on dummies, at 450 it is very borderline because there will be times you risk your dancing edge debuff actually dropped before you reapplied it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empressia
Actually, I think Ninja is the easiest. I started the game as a DRG, I have tried out MNK briefly in 2.3 so I got the first hand experience for melee DPS, and I have to say that NIN is probably the easiest to manage. In a sense it is extremely close to MNK based on a speed buff (GL3, Huton) and priority system (DK vs DE, Demolish VS Mutliate etc) but you have no positional to worry about. Just don't screw up your ninjitsus and do it fast enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empressia
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11-13-2014, 01:32 AMEardstapaDo a 3 minute parse; That is the most acceptable for attacking raid enemies before mechanics kick in... All 3 melee DPS are closer than one may think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maero
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11-13-2014, 02:50 AMLeonusDon't say that and then not post results/numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eardstapa
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11-13-2014, 03:35 AMMaeroOh i am well aware and have argued the point that the gap between drg and Monk is not so far as to what many claim, they obviously have not played with someone that knows the class well as myself i have witnessed dragoons doing a heck of a lot of damage. On the other most of the drg population from what i have seen do less then NINQuote:
Originally Posted by Eardstapa
Really comes down to the player and gear and in i for one think all 3 classes should be on par or very close to dps wise but its up to the player what sort of play style they want. -
11-13-2014, 04:48 AMAiurilyi think the thing is with that, is that it brings up the question of if the extra 26 potency every 18s that you get from having that much skill speed is worth it over DET/CRIT. and at the same time, that means you'll clip dots earlier in your rotation, at 1s-2s instead of 0s-1s for a build that forgoes it entirely. lots of testing to do probably~Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
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11-13-2014, 06:36 AMEardstapaDo not be childish, it would be a moot point for me to post merely because not all 3 are equally geared for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
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11-13-2014, 06:44 AMLeonusOn that same note, you can't just say that without any recorded results if you're saying you parsed yourself and they come out close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eardstapa
Without being equally geared (or close) the test is somewhat flawed. I merely said what I did because without some type of visual evidence via numbers, a lot of people would believe your statement holds no water.
I'm not saying you are wrong, simply stating that for most, your statement means next to nothing without the proof behind what you are supporting.
I apologize if my statement came off negatively. -
11-13-2014, 07:02 AMEardstapa
I have run with good dragoons, bad dragoons, good monks, bad monks, and mostly bad ninja... I can tell you, good dragoons and good monks will perform very closely, but the longer a fight lasts, monk will pull ahead. However, if any mechanic forces a monk to drop greased lightning almost consistently, dragoons will pull ahead. Ninja is a bit more iffy right now... However, from others doing the three minute test, and full i110 it generally is NIN 500-520, MNK 470-500, and DRG is usually around 470-510, depending on how lucky they are with critical hits. But, since everyone dismisses critical for determination, even on dragoons... Well, that is a whole different story on why DPS can be so drastically different.
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11-13-2014, 11:57 AMOoshimaDone enough test with it. Without that 2.0GCD the amount of drop is pretty much "insane" for me. I started with an Arachne set without skill spd melds. 44X at best I can pull. Once I fixed the GCD and dropping issues, average parse is at 48X with higher parses at 49X range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiurily
Most of the time you will be refreshing your DoTs at about 1s to 0 even with 2.0GCD, only a at certain points you will be refreshing at 1-2s. It was way better to have them completely dropped and requiring 1 or 2 GCD (in the case of Shadow Fang) to reapply them. -
11-13-2014, 03:12 PMSamano
MNK's and NIN's DPS is about even, the only disadvantage MNK has is when there's a period where MNK can't attack and they lose GL stacks. The DPS difference is no more than 10 DPS. And remember, the 500+ DPS NIN dummy damage is with WAR doing slashing debuff the whole time. If MNK gets a DK bitch to go with them, pretty sure the DPS is gonna come out even.