It's about time to add Coil story mode, isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

and likely took about as much resource as a story mode coil would take. SE developed a separate version of an existing raid for a specific population of players. That's what the OP is asking for. When they did it for raiders, it was fine and dandy. When it's suggested for non-raiders, suddenly the sky is falling.

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Go and actually read about how Savage Coil was created. Seriously. Anyone who watched the live letter talking about Savage Coil and read the dev blogs about it are laughing at your incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

See my comment above. I've seen plenty of people give up on T5, much less on T6-9.

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I'll let the census do the speaking when that comes out. For now though, we'll agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

No, you're asking for someone's request that isn't for you not be developed. Totally different right?

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Yeah, it is actually.
"Keep focusing on your job guys. We want NEW CONTENT that isn't a complete rehash or dumbed down version of something already in existence!"
As opposed to, "Please go back and redevelop this fight because I can't do it, and I have proof that others can't do it too!"

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

That refers to you right? Because from what I see, he's getting the point.

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But you're all missing the point of why people don't want devs to pander to your wants.

I missed it earlier, is 'Hardcore Raider' the new "insult" for people who clear coil? If so, just wow. Please guys, I can only take so many side breaking laughs a day.

i110gear , soon 120 and 20% boost is more than enough "nerf"

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Originally Posted by Hali

But you're all missing the point of why people don't want devs to pander to your wants.

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I love the plural to singular game. Let me try. You're missing the players around you clamoring for this content. This doesn't affect you one whit and yet you're pissing and moaning about it.

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I missed it earlier, is 'Hardcore Raider' the new "insult" for people who clear coil? If so, just wow. Please guys, I can only take so many side breaking laughs a day.

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Buh? Hardcore raider is an insult? If you're getting side breaking laughs, they're from your own delusions. There was no insult in there.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I cleared t5, idgaf about story mode. Stupid answer is still stupid. Every new game is on youtube now, kill trash mobs and watch cutscenes in-game is every single fight in this game. You're just a troll (I hope so anyway) and I'll stop replying to you.

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So why don't they do it then?

Because they can't (or won't). Watching it as a 2nd party is a good alternative I think.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Uh, why are people even arguing this?



You don't decide how devs spend their time, they have this planned already, and I'd say they had this planned months ago.

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Another translation of the live eltter on the topic says this:

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With the Bahamut's coils completing in patch 2.4, do you have any plans for players who are only interested in seeing the storyline?

I have also been wondering what we can do. With respect to the difficulty, there will be some relaxation, but we also need to consider players who are starting new, so we haven't finalized any specifics yet. I would like it so that at some point everyone could experience the story.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

and likely took about as much resource as a story mode coil would take. SE developed a separate version of an existing raid for a specific population of players. That's what the OP is asking for. When they did it for raiders, it was fine and dandy. When it's suggested for non-raiders, suddenly the sky is falling.

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This is absolutely not the case, and precisely why your argument is flawed.
Savage Coil was the original difficulty of Coil. SE have stated at multiple points that they develop content harder than they release it, Savage Coil was them giving us a portion of that content released as initially designed. They've also said the original Crystal Tower was far, far harder too. No development time was actually spent in releasing Savage Coil at all, because it was already there.

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Originally Posted by Hali

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After reading all your posts I just finally read your sig. I would just like to tell you that you will likely be getting banned again. It is possible to have a discussion without talking down to others, name calling, and general harassment. At this point I'm pretty sure you're just trolling anyways trying to get this thread locked or something since it offends you so much.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

I'll say it again. Please articulate for me why this would negatively affect raiders at all. The final coil is coming in 2.4. No impact there. You get your raid. Likely the savage modes are developed in parallel, so you'll get those too. How is this affecting you personally if someone can experience a watered-down version of the fights and some cut scenes?

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Waste of time and resource, i would rather have SE spend more of their time and resource coming up with more raids and other fresh content instead of recycling old content every patch.

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Originally Posted by Hali

Development time wasted on giving people something they can watch on youtube, which could have gone to something useful.

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You're playing a game to enjoy it, not to watch someone else do it.
I do end-game raid yet I agreed with the idea. Many players are forgetting what games are for. Most of you treat games like a job. People shouldn't be left out of a game story because of end-game limitations, after all it's just a game like any other but letting you play with other players. Development time wasted? the dungeons already exist, all they have to do is remove things to make it doable but enjoyable to everyone who want to enjoy the game on a story point of view (this is a Final Fantasy game). I know many people who bought the game, completed the story and then left the game.

If most of you don't care about the story, why would you care about someone else enjoying it? you get your raid dungeon and you enjoy it, let others enjoy the story behind it BY PLAYING IT, not watching someone else do it on youtube.

Please don't derail the topic guys, this is a good discussion. Minus the trolling and name calling.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

I love the plural to singular game. Let me try. You're missing the players around you clamoring for this content. This doesn't affect you one whit and yet you're pissing and moaning about it.

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Stopping current development cycle to start a project for year old content that will get annihilated with new gear coming out in 2.4. Yes, totally doesn't effect the content coming to the game.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Buh? Hardcore raider is an insult? If you're getting side breaking laughs, they're from your own delusions. There was no insult in there.

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So you wont mind if I call everyone who hasn't beaten T5 a casual then? Sounds good to me.

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I missed it earlier, is 'Hardcore Raider' the new "insult" for people who clear coil? If so, just wow. Please guys, I can only take so many side breaking laughs a day.

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I think that stems from the fact that a story Coil would not effect people who have cleared normal Coil in the slightest so it makes little sense for you all to be so against the idea.
Personally if they ever do implement a story Coil, I'd still try to beat the normal version.

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Originally Posted by MidlaneGod

Waste of time and resource, i would rather have SE spend more of their time and resource coming up with more raids and other fresh content instead of recycling old content every patch.

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You're getting your raid. Final coil is already coming. Assuming that the development team spends time on multiple streams of content (Raid/PVP/Casual), which they do, why is this a bad thing for the casual players to have?

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

After reading all your posts I just finally read your sig. I would just like to tell you that you will likely be getting banned again. It is possible to have a discussion without talking down to others, name calling, and general harassment. At this point I'm pretty sure you're just trolling anyways trying to get this thread locked or something since it offends you so much.

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Please see saeedaisspecial's post.
I've not aimed insults at anyo... Damn, that last post of mine. One insult damn.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Yep, he's certainly the one name calling.

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Yes, I called you arrogant. You suggested that your game experience was more important than other players. Saying "I am more important than others around me" is arrogance. If that hurts your feelings, maybe you should stop doing it.

get good
/10char

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Originally Posted by Hali

So you wont mind if I call everyone who hasn't beaten T5 a casual then? Sounds good to me.

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Actually, Casual isn't bad. As long as there aren't any additional adjectives (I've seen "filthy" used too often), I'm fine with the term.

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Originally Posted by Hali

Stopping current development cycle to start a project for year old content that will get annihilated with new gear coming out in 2.4. Yes, totally doesn't effect the content coming to the game.

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I (and many others I bet) would appreciate if you stop calling development on something that already exists.

Pretty sure there are more people who haven't cleared T5 than people who cleared T9 so all this talk about stoppping current development is pretty funny considering Coil 3 would be experienced by few people.

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Originally Posted by Edeline

I (and many others I bet) would appreciate if you stop calling development on something that already exists.

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This. They would hardly have to stop everything else to just copy and paste current content, and remove a few 1 shot mechanics, lower HP, or give more buff. (Dunno how they would change it but you get the idea.)

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Pretty sure there are more people who haven't cleared T5 than people who cleared T9 so all this talk about stoppping current development is pretty funny considering Coil 3 would be experienced by few people.

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Which is likely intended. If too high of a percentage of people reach these fights it means the fights were too easy and that their "hardcore" base would simply vanish.

People need to stop and think for a moment what they're asking for.
I mean really think about it.

Take a look at the level of difficulty in Leviathan/Ramuh hard vs the "other" hard mode primals. Then take a look at all of their extreme counterparts.
The number of mechanics used in Leviathan and Ramuh hard are ridiculous by comparison, almost none are used. They do not teach you much about their mechanics at all on your average first run through them. They even use less mechanics than Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, or Moogle. They teach you almost nothing.
We've now got people on the forums complaining that the fights in the game (whilst leveling up and unlocking content at end game) do not prepare you for Twintania or other end game fights.
We also have people complaining that no one does these fights (Leviathan/Ramuh hard) anymore because once they've completed it, they've no reason to do so, resulting in larger queue times. It's become so apparent this is the case that the devs even addressed this in one of the recent live letters.
Is this what you want? That's exactly what you're asking for, a fight with no rewards, no reason to do it after the first time you've completed it, a fight that doesn't even teach you.

Asking for all this broken, watered down content is only really harming the game. Instead of encouraging you to learn and improve, it's going to turn the player base into an idiocracy, where no one can really accomplish much short of "the 5%". People who refuse to learn, who don't want to understand the game or get better are the people preventing the game from becoming any more complex than it already is currently. Yoshi himself has said he's afraid of including things like pure support jobs, or "complex" jobs like Blue Mage because he's afraid the player base would find it too difficult to play with.

So think, please think. Is this really the path you want to proceed down?

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

snip

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The game is already casual, as was intended since it's conception as I've already said some posts early, it's not something I like, but there are other games that offer challenge, so no conceptual problem there.

Also, if you read some posts back, Yoshi already said that something like what OP is proposing is already in their mind, so it's happening, and SE is most likely already spending resources on it, for the disgust of many of the posters in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Which is likely intended. If too high of a percentage of people reach these fights it means the fights were too easy and that their "hardcore" base would simply vanish.

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Not that I'd cry over it. Point was, story mode would probably be enjoyed by more people than Coil 3, so it'd be hardly a waste of time for those 4 noobs who can't clear it yet like some are trying to make it sounds. It's just more mirror climbing because there isn't really any argument against it since it doesn't impact those who already cleared it in any way.

It'd be like (new) Primals HM: no rewards, just to progress the story, yet I don't see anyone complaining about those.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Not that I'd cry over it. Point was, story mode would probably be enjoyed by more people than Coil 3, so it'd be hardly a waste of time for those 4 noobs who can't clear it yet like some are trying to make it sounds. It's just more mirror climbing because there isn't really any argument against it since it doesn't impact those who already cleared it in any way.

It'd be like (new) Primals HM: no rewards, just to progress the story, yet I don't see anyone complaining about those.

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The current versions of Turns 1-9, are the nerfed versions from the original designs.

That is actually the easy version of the content...

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Originally Posted by Edeline

I (and many others I bet) would appreciate if you stop calling development on something that already exists.

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That IS development.

To go back and adjust, is to 'develop', it takes time, effort and re-implementation on top of testing.

It's a huge waste of time, when the content has already been nerfed from its original design, and then re-developed and designed again for Savage Coil (to reflect closer to the original design).


To re-do it for a third time would be an immense waste.


(P.S. Naming yourself after the worst FF character 0/10)

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

People need to stop and think for a moment what they're asking for.
I mean really think about it.

Take a look at the level of difficulty in Leviathan/Ramuh hard vs the "other" hard mode primals. Then take a look at all of their extreme counterparts.
The number of mechanics used in Leviathan and Ramuh hard are ridiculous by comparison, almost none are used. They do not teach you much about their mechanics at all on your average first run through them. They even use less mechanics than Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, or Moogle. They teach you almost nothing.

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While I do agree with your point, it could also be argued that if the primals have these "easy mode" versions that are easy to beat and teach us nothing of the extreme version, why can't Coil have the same thing? Just for story purposes.

I personally don't believe any story content should be locked behind extremely difficult fights.
I'm fine with those fights existing for the challenge and loot, but to me the story should be for everyone.

Of course SE is free to design the game the way they wish. If they intend for the coil story to only be experienced by a few than that's the way it is, though to me the addition of echo suggests they do want more people to clear these fights eventually.
I agree with the post a few pages back that said it would be better to have separate story modes and no echo on the normal versions to help preserve their challenge.

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Originally Posted by Kaelah

While I do agree with your point, it could also be argued that if the primals have these "easy mode" versions that are easy to beat and teach us nothing of the extreme version, why can't Coil have the same thing? Just for story purposes.

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You're unfortunately comparing two slightly different concepts. The story of the Normal/Hard Mode Primals is chronologically before the story of the Extreme mode primals. They're not meant to fill the same purpose, because in terms of story, they fufill different purposes.

What you're suggesting is that current raid content would be a Hard Mode, and that it would have its own story, while the version your suggesting would be a first clear 'normal' mode, and wouldn't share the same story we currently have.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You're unfortunately comparing two slightly different concepts. The story of the Normal/Hard Mode Primals is chronologically before the story of the Extreme mode primals. They're not meant to fill the same purpose, because in terms of story, they fufill different purposes.

What you're suggesting is that current raid content would be a Hard Mode, and that it would have its own story, while the version your suggesting would be a first clear 'normal' mode, and wouldn't share the same story we currently have.

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Touche good Sir. You have me bested. lol.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

So think, please think. Is this really the path you want to proceed down?

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I think I see where the disconnect is. You're an endgame player. You do whatever needs to be done to have the best gear for the content along with the best enhancements (food in this case). No matter the grind to get those, the endgame is worth it.

For most players though, that's not the case.

Take a look at the game that this takes a lot of it's cues from, WoW. The bulk of the player base will never see endgame content outside of LFR (story mode with minor drops) and are fine with it. You're looking at this saying "If you do this they won't improve" but what actually would happen if you leave it alone is "they won't play".

When Mists came out in WoW. The top endgame raid teams unlocked the farms to get at the best foods, they threw themselves at content like crazy, they ground every faction's rep to get the rewards offered (because the best enchants and recipes had to be gained that way. The rest of the players? Not a chance. Maybe if there was a vanity pet or mount or transmog gear. Otherwise? Nah.

These are not players that are going to push for endgame. It's the same fallacy that blizzard falls into with wPVP. "If we just have them experience it, they'll love it". Not necessarily and the same is true here.

Edit: Sorry saeedaisspecial for replying back here. Post limit was reached. Aggravating thing that.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

No.
Please read what I have posted. I want all aspects of the game to be improved upon. If the game is catered towards those that do not wish to improve, those who would settle with simple attacking a fancy looking training dummy for a cutscene, then the game cannot improve, at all. The developers will be (and currently are) in fear of adding anything that may be deemed "too complex" for said people. No one wins when this is the case.
Casual players, hardcore players, every type of player, has posted threads asking for things such as pure support jobs, classic (and complex) FF jobs such as Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Red Mage, etc. Jobs that could only work if they were built with some level of complexity in mind. Yoshi himself has said he will not do this because he fears that the playerbase will not be able to grasp some of the concepts involved with the job. This is what allowing people to remain ignorant and unwilling to improve does, it hurts us (the hardcore playerbase) by previewing us from experiencing a complex game, it prevents you from experiencing new jobs that you have always wanted to be in game.
It helps no one but the unwilling.

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You're assuming that there a three tiered raid structure wouldn't work (Story > Normal > Savage) and I think it would. Players still raid in WoW with it (LFR > Normal > Extreme), and do so at all levels of difficulty. You can have your complexity (normal) and fiendish complexity (savage) and players will play it. It sounds like you're suggesting that the endgame would just evaporate if they added this and it wouldn't. It would just mean that players that would never experience the content otherwise get to touch it in some small way.

For the jobs angle, the game was built with the MMO holy trinity and the challenge is how to make them feel right, be useful when played well, and also fit into the role structure that exists. I understand the upset, these are iconic FF jobs and you want to be able to play them. Truth be told, I don't see any reason for developers not to release a complicated class. Not every player has to enjoy every role. I may know how to play DRG and do it pretty well, but it's not my go-to dps.

For your concern that the players unable to handle complexity will destroy things for you, here's the thing, my in-laws play WoW and they will never improve. Really. My wife and I have coached, and guided, and set up tool bars for them and run them through content, explaining the whole way. Those players are going to be in the game and it can exist with them, and with complex content. They aren't mutually exclusive things. They will never experience the complex content, but they see the story progress regardless. They will never have BiS gear. You still can. The existence of casual players doesn't hurt the hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I personally don't believe any story content should be locked behind extremely difficult fights.

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[Marker goes above your head] > [Move Under Boss] > [Different Coloured Marker Appears above head] > [Move ontop of other players]
[Another different marker appears above your head] > [Run to avoid dying] > [Boss uses one cast-bar telegraphed from the moon] > [Move to avoid dying]

These are not difficult mechanics.


However, let's fix the story element then!


Let's make coil a mindless zerg with each boss being a white box, in a white room.

Each new white box has new mechanics, including any adds that will also be white boxes.



We might expand on the colours in the future to keep it interesting, but god forbid that there should be an interesting story/design that Sunny Susan who plays for 1 hour a day when she isn't looking after he kids, who can't put 2 hours a week into doing coil might miss out on!

"IF ONLY THERE WAS A WAY FOR SUSAN TO SEE IT. OH WAIT, SHE CAN." People have uploaded EVERY cutscene, the only thing you are missing is the fight. THAT IS IT.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I personally don't believe any story content should be locked behind extremely difficult fights.

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Nothing about the fight is extremely difficult. It has a couple of unique mechanics which take a few runs to learn and get used to. If you haven't beaten it by now, There's usually a good reason.

FFXI players , would haven laughed .....asking for a "story mode" CoP

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJlcUstEkyw/hqdefault.jpg

oohhh those were the days , of wiping and wiping and wiping , until u finally beat it ! , the story only was worth it!

now? QQ on the forums until u get everything nerfed to the ground.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

FFXI players , would haven laughed .....asking for a "story mode" CoP

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJlcUstEkyw/hqdefault.jpg

oohhh those were the days , of wiping and wiping and wiping , until u finally beat it ! , the story only was worth it!

now? QQ on the forums until u get everything nerfed to the ground.

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I still remember going into the fight once, and then leaving shortly after so we could instantly skip the cutscenes via the "You have already seen this cutscene. Would you like to skip? prompt.

Freaking rediculous 45 minute airship fight. I loved my bard in it though. tons of fun.

I have cleared T9 multiple times and see nothing wrong with a story mode coil and no one else should either. People say it wastes development time however you can easily counter that argument with 2 points.

1. A large amount of people play this game for the story. If those people get frustrated and quit SE losses money. The less subs the game has and less money coming in means longer development time for new content or a stop to it all together. Hardcore players often fail to realize its the casual players that keep games alive if you appeal to them the game thrives and content continues to be developed for both sides.

2. No one can clearly tell anyone here how long or hard it could be to make an easy/story mode version for all we know it could take only take a day or two.

In other words "Let them eat cake"

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

FFXI players , would haven laughed .....asking for a "story mode" CoP

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJlcUstEkyw/hqdefault.jpg

oohhh those were the days , of wiping and wiping and wiping , until u finally beat it ! , the story only was worth it!

now? QQ on the forums until u get everything nerfed to the ground.

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So much nostalgia. Airship was probably the most nerve wracking fight of that story line.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

I think I see where the disconnect is. You're an endgame player. You do whatever needs to be done to have the best gear for the content along with the best enhancements (food in this case). No matter the grind to get those, the endgame is worth it.

For most players though, that's not the case.

Take a look at the game that this takes a lot of it's cues from, WoW. The bulk of the player base will never see endgame content outside of LFR (story mode with minor drops) and are fine with it. You're looking at this saying "If you do this they won't improve" but what actually would happen if you leave it alone is "they won't play".

When Mists came out in WoW. The top endgame raid teams unlocked the farms to get at the best foods, they threw themselves at content like crazy, they ground every faction's rep to get the rewards offered (because the best enchants and recipes had to be gained that way. The rest of the players? Not a chance. Maybe if there was a vanity pet or mount or transmog gear. Otherwise? Nah.

These are not players that are going to push for endgame. It's the same fallacy that blizzard falls into with wPVP. "If we just have them experience it, they'll love it". Not necessarily and the same is true here.

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No.
Please read what I have posted. I want all aspects of the game to be improved upon. If the game is catered towards those that do not wish to improve, those who would settle with simply attacking a fancy looking training dummy for a cutscene, then the game cannot improve, at all. The developers will be (and currently are) in fear of adding anything that may be deemed "too complex" for said people. No one wins when this is the case.
Casual players, hardcore players, every type of player, has posted threads asking for things such as pure support jobs, classic (and complex) FF jobs such as Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Red Mage, etc. Jobs that could only work if they were built with some level of complexity in mind. Yoshi himself has said he will not do this because he fears that the playerbase will not be able to grasp some of the concepts involved with the job. This is what allowing people to remain ignorant and unwilling to improve does, it hurts us (the hardcore playerbase) by preventing us from experiencing a complex game, it prevents you from experiencing new jobs of other things that you have always wanted to be in game.
It helps no one but the unwilling.

it is Final Fantasy, of course people are playing this game for the lore, I see nothing wrong with a story mode coil

disclaimer: I also raid

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Originally Posted by Hali

http://i.imgur.com/HdLgb58.jpg

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Look. I get, you want to feel special and that's okay. If you've beaten t5 and t6-t9 then congratulations. How's your static doing? You've got it on farm now, right? You farm it.. right? For the GEAR, right? I mean, why else would you keep doing it, right? Oh that's right, for the gear.

Now that's not to say there aren't players out there that get the thrill of completing difficult content just because it's difficult. And I do get what you're snidely trying to say. Coil is suppose to be the hardest content the game has to offer currently (aside from Savage Coil, which hey.. was put in there specifically for players who really want that hardcore challenge). You are rewarded from doing that really hard content with some pretty snazzy looking gear and the ability to truly have the best gear combinations in the game to make you super leet.

Ah, but there's also a specific storyline to coil. A storyline that many people would like to enjoy without the headache of committing to a static group.

Ending here, because I'm too tired to continue and what I had typed (and deleted) was mostly rambling.

Probably had extreme in my head because of the primals haha.

Anyway, it's great that they're just one or two mechanics for you. Maybe I could get them with practice. Maybe not.
At the end of the day it's story content gated behind some of the hardest content in the game and I don't care for it.