Was Coil 2 and Ramuh extreme over tune?

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Originally Posted by mDaWg

Never once told you I one shotted SCoB on release day, but we were "server 3rd" (Excalibur - Yes the one with BG) for pretty much everything... not that server 3rd is anything to be proud of, but we completed EVERYTHING up to dive bombs of T9 without a single bit of help from anyone or their videos. You don't know me or who I roll with, so think before you make random judgments with no evidence.

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No, i think i hit the nail on the head. You're nothing but a copycat - copying someone elses rotations, someone elses strategies and then claiming everything is easy. Not that it's a bad thing of course, if something works why not? I don't see it worthy of bragging-rights though.

the only thing that is overtuned with ramuh is effort required to down versus reward. there is simply no incentive to run it and nobody wants to do it. no learning parties and no clear parties either. everybodys bonkers over hunts these days for some reason. i already see a bunch of full i110 running around that still cant beat t5 or titan ex...
i hope they add ramuh to duty finder sooner rather than later since my server doesnt want to do it sadly.

Personally I felt like Coil 6-9 was the perfect difficulty for a normal level raid, and Savage Coil the perfect difficulty for a "Heroic" level raid. I would love to see this continue to be the case in future patches.

As for Ramuh EX, I feel that the difficulty is proper for where we are in the game, however, Ramuh requires something that the other Primal fights don't. Garuda, Titan, Ifrit and Leviathan all required that you be aware of your own position to deal with mechanics. Ramuh, however, requires group coordination.

This is why the fight feels so much harder. You're asking people to not only account for their own positions, but the positions of their seven party members as well. That's a big leap.

That's the thing, I belive at least Coil, it's not supposed to be for the average gamer. Not that I cleared mind you, but the hardcore people this this kinda content to show they are the kings of the hill, and it's fine. Ramuh I think it's rather easy, a lot easier compared to titan that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Was coil 2 and ramuh a bit over tune for average gamer?

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Short answer is no. New extremes and coil aren't for the "average gamer" at all so they aren't overtuned. They are there to give somewhat of a challenge for the more hardcore players, and with time they are nerfed.

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Originally Posted by mDaWg

Hello troll, please go back to the caves of which you came from. Thank you very much.

As far as I know, math can be used to figure out how much damage you're doing pretty easily. I mean, it does put it into a little tab called the battlelog and throw a timestamp on it.... So take your hate and bring it elsewhere. kthxbai.


I have no problem taking advantage of people's stupidity. I run a business in my real life and literally this is how business works. People are dumb, they see a product, they wanna buy it, regardless of whether or not it's worth it... they put money in your pocket and keep your business going. That's how the world works, buddy. If you don't/can't see that, then it's not my problem. Just think about all the things you've spent money on that were probably a waste yet you fell for it because the advertising looked good and you felt like you wanted it. It's not the seller's fault...

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The irony is strong in this one.

Well I guess over tune is not the exact correct term. I felt that for T6-7, SE when a bit overboard mechanic wise, only for t8 I felt it is over tune in term of dps requirement, but not much any more due to Hunt's upgrade. But not even echo will help much in t6-7 unless they completely loosen up the one shot mechanic. As for Ramuh ex, I agree, it is not too hard IF you can get a bunch of people who can operate on Coil 2 lvl, aka, ability to pay attention the teammate position as well as your own like in T7 and excellent communication skill like when to clean up. Most of the wipe happen either tank didn't get enough orbs or during adds phrase where charmed got double or triple shock due to all the thunderblot flying around while trying to kill the adds on time.

For the average player? Of course. That's the whole point of the hardest fights in the game. It would have been pretty damn pathetic if they weren't over tuned for the average player.

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Originally Posted by mDaWg

primal loot is meh and should always be meh compared to coil. The first wave of extremes was too OP for how easy it was. Although I will admit that it's far too easy to get i110 accessories from just collecting soldiery and seals from hunts... shouldn't be max level rewards for something so stupid casual as hunts. If anything yeah, the loot from hunts should be i100 and the new primal/coil should be i110.

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See, I disagree completely.

The system we had at launch where BCoB and Myth both gave i90 gear was the best system. Tieing sands and oil to SCoB is where they went wrong.

Just because a portion of the playerbase doesn't/can't do the hard stuff doesn't mean that they don't want to progress too.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

See, I disagree completely.

The system we had at launch where BCoB and Myth both gave i90 gear was the best system. Tieing sands and oil to SCoB is where they went wrong.

Just because a portion of the playerbase doesn't/can't do the hard stuff doesn't mean that they don't want to progress too.

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You need ilevel 110 to do Ramuh and the 3 new dungeons? wat?

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

You need ilevel 110 to do Ramuh and the 3 new dungeons? wat?

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Did I say that they needed it?

This argument that "casuals don't need i110 gear" is inherently stupid because them needing the gear or not has no bearing on them getting better gear being fun for them.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Did I say that they needed it?

This argument that "casuals don't need i110 gear" is inherently stupid because them needing the gear or not has no bearing on them getting better gear being fun for them.

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They shouldn't be able to do it then boo hoo they suck. At most they should be limited to ilvl100 which sands and oils did right until they were introduced into hunts.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

They shouldn't be able to do it then boo hoo they suck. At most they should be limited to ilvl100 which sands and oils did right until they were introduced into hunts.

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Though I am against the current showering of gear upon the masses, Gilthas is correct in stating that casual non raiders must always have an opportunity to get better gear. If not, most will simply stop playing, the money to keep the game going goes away, and no more raid development.

This is a balancing act that wow hasn't even gotten right yet.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Did I say that they needed it?

This argument that "casuals don't need i110 gear" is inherently stupid because them needing the gear or not has no bearing on them getting better gear being fun for them.

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So you want the cake and you want to eat it all. You want gears without hassle. You want to be lazy and get reward.

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Originally Posted by Chocolate_Rain

Though I am against the current showering of gear upon the masses, Gilthas is correct in stating that casual non raiders must always have an opportunity to get better gear. If not, most will simply stop playing, the money to keep the game going goes away, and no more raid development.

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From a developmental perspective, I think the key takeaway here is "casuals need something to work toward," and in the current game the only thing for them to work toward is sitting inside of some A-rank pinatas, because everyone already maxed out on their soldiery gear. While I don't like how they raised it, (Hunts are boring, unengaging, and do not allow players to improve their skills,) putting a ceiling on everyone who's not an ~elite raider~ bourgeois carefully managing their array of human raiding labor for the sake of making the elite feel good is not a solution.

The way I see it is that casual players no longer need something to work toward. They now need something engaging to work toward that won't also instantly paste them across the floor just for being pubbies. We had this in 2.0 and 2.1, when the difficulty and gear curve of endgame encounters made sense and you were unlikely to hit an "I can't do this / improve myself without a raid group" wall without playing a lot. That went away when item level inflation made 'hard mode' level encounters utterly trivial, and extreme- and coil-style content the only thing in the game to do.

You know, to date I never understood the level of elitism on the issue of gearing, at all.

Everyone should have an option of obtaining better gears and new items down the line. You cannot deny that getting new bling bling and toys are a large part of fun for quite a majority of the players, regardless they are casual gamers or hardcores.

The hardcore and the top corp of players are already rewarded with early access to the highest ilvl gear in game, while the masses play catch up during the catch up patch (ie 2.1, 2.3 and in future, 2.5).

The hardcore and the top corp of players have access to both Soldiery and HA gear set and allow them to mix and match to obtain the BiS gear set. Non raiders only have Soldiery gear - with the exception of a one or two job, majority of them are either non-BiS or completely junk on secondary stats.

At the same time, the hardcore and the top corp of players would have been on coil farm for some time as of now, and with Hunts they are gearing on multiple jobs already. Casuals who are playing catch up are probably only able to gear on their main job, and maybeeeee one sub job. Tomes of Soldiery are still limited - even if these so called casuals can dump 100 hrs in hunts and gathered over 10k seals excluding logs, they are just not enough ToS for them to gear up unlike raiders who have another option of gearing which is ilvl 110 right off the bat.

And the top ilvl weapon are only available to raiders.

So... with all these benefits for raiding, why do you feel so hurt that casual, non raiding gamers have access to ilvl 110 soldiery gears which you people consider it junk stats for almost 50% of the pieces? Are you that upset that they have full i110 non BiS gearset (while you don some HA bling blings and goes "hey I cleared coil, okay?")

Does casuals having ilvl 110 avg affect your game play in anyway? Elite end games have their own circle and community and they probably talked about who's good and who's bad as hell. They probably scrutinize their lodestone profile and achievements and trail them holistically to see if they'd accept them. With all these it is not like ilvl110 soldiery will make them instantly good or confuse you that they are good and end up wiping you and wasting your time. You'd probably be able to tell who's good and bad with experience. So.... why so much anger that they have ilvl 110 gear?

Unless the possession of ilvl 110 gear defines your achievement and happiness as a raider, which then I'm not sure what to comment on. Most of the end game raiders pride themselves in their skill. World/Server first players observe the fight and figure out the mechanics themselves and they pride themselves on this. They pride themselves having the skills to push through contents which 99% of the player base could not yet to do it. Priding yourself over gear is just, superficial. Because eventually, every tom, dick or harry can get gear.

And the funniest thing of them all, is quite a handful of these QQ-ers only cleared T9 recently, or haven't even cleared them yet. Most of the people who cleared it earlier, within patch 2.2 doesn't even get bothered with this. :rolleyes:

I think the dps check for Ramuh is too tight. It should be lowered.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

You know, to date I never understood the level of elitism on the issue of gearing, at all.

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I never undestood entitled kids who want shiny toys they don't even know how to use but don't want to work for it and want it handled to them, but what we can do?

Regardless, the game is a theme park with a 6 cycle month for gears, so at the end who cares. They have little value. Open the floodgate to casual.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

I never undestood entitled kids who want shiny toys they don't even know how to use but don't want to work for it and want it handled to them, but what we can do?

Regardless, the game is a theme park with a 6 cycle month for gears, so at the end who cares. They have little value. Open the floodgate to casual.

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Well, what they do with their bling bling got to do with you? Just like how do other waste their own money, why does it bother you?

I've already cleared T9 in patch 2.2 and I'm not even bothered with this. I just do my other stuffs such as desynthesis, getting supras etc.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I think the dps check for Ramuh is too tight. It should be lowered.

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the only hard part in the whole fight tbh

hell i had i100+ DPS players and we barely made it

beside dps check the fight have rest is a complete joke

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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/allofmycommendations

lol

1 way to test if said content having the right ilvl recommendation is to try it. That means no overgearing above said ilvl. And no melding stuff either, if gonna use crafted gears. If someone can beat it, even though it's hard, then the recommended level are correct.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I think the dps check for Ramuh is too tight. It should be lowered.

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Gonna be honest: The problem with the REX DPS check is that it requires every DPS to be playing their job correctly unless the DPS are significantly overgeared, and none of the content before it is helping DPS get practice in playing their job correctly any more. The extreme opacity of how damage mechanics work in the game (and MMOs in general) isn't helping them learn, either.

I pin this strictly on the game. When older, puggable fights were relevant, they still placed an impetus on players to learn and perform their way up. Now everyone is thrown into the deep end of the pool with some cute looking i90 floaties and told to swim - with absolutely no preparation on anything but how to doggy-paddle.

Note that this is different from "Waaah those casuals have my gear!". It's more "S-E isn't preparing any new players for any of their insanely hard content now."

We need a much better way of metering out content difficulty that isn't just "higher ilvl req = harder fight at that ilvl" now, because the item levels aren't going to stop inflating any time soon.

I kinda agree with post above me. Now old trio primal x were kinda easy with gears around ilvl 100.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

lol

1 way to test if said content having the right ilvl recommendation is to try it. That means no overgearing above said ilvl. And no melding stuff either, if gonna use crafted gears. If someone can beat it, even though it's hard, then the recommended level are correct.

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At some live letter, Yoshida used to say that recommend level is by no meant the best level to do it. He said that he keeps in mind for people who have their FC/LS friends to help pulling up or something.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Stop putting word in my mouth, I never once said that T6-8 was impossible. I was merely speaking of the opinion was they too hard since a lot of people who worked on coil 1 I know are failing at T6. I am currently on working on T9

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There's really no reason 100% of the population should be clearing relevant content in any MMO provided they don't have the basic fundamentals down.

I hear Hello Kitty Online provides easy content for everyone to clear if the numerous people you know are looking for an easier game to 'succeed' at.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Gonna be honest: The problem with the REX DPS check is that it requires every DPS to be playing their job correctly unless the DPS are significantly overgeared, and none of the content before it is helping DPS get practice in playing their job correctly any more.

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I agree. The dps check may be too tight but is not impossible. All it requires is for the 4 dps to know their classes well. A player will not become better unless he is forced to overcome a roadblock. Right now because of hunts and soldiery being out for a while a lot of fights are really tame when it comes to dps checks. Especially considering a lot of them have echo. That will breed lazy dps that will jump on second coil later on.

So the latest extreme primal is challenging their rotation, big deal. If they can't pass it is obviously something they're doing wrong because when it comes to gear almost everyone is sitting at i100-110 now.

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Originally Posted by razzgrizz3

the only thing that is overtuned with ramuh is effort required to down versus reward. there is simply no incentive to run it and nobody wants to do it. no learning parties and no clear parties either. everybodys bonkers over hunts these days for some reason. i already see a bunch of full i110 running around that still cant beat t5 or titan ex...

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Ramuh Ex is very easy (given that you can pass through dps check), mechanic-wise it's even easier that Moogle or Levi. There are even "simplified" tactics (like 1 tank 3 heals) that makes it very straightforward in regard of orb gathering, you only need to deal with charms and chains.
What makes it hard is that it introduces yet-to-be-popularized-to-masses concept of intra-party coordination, where people not only should behave by their own skill - dodge/switch to adds/watch for boss, but also should watch what other party members do, coordinate their actions and have some kind of priority system in place. The previous such attempt (T2) was largely skipped by population.
It's like a bridge step to Coil2 which is full of mechanics that requires pay attention on party also and this time it's not skippable.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

So you want the cake and you want to eat it all. You want gears without hassle. You want to be lazy and get reward.

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Oh boohoo, is the precious princess sad that you can't be a special snowflake anymore?

With the original system in 2.0 there was i90 gear for raiders and i90 gear for people that only did the easy stuff. The BiS items required a mix of the two, thus giving incentive for raiders to raid.

Then came 2.2 and there was i110 gear for raiders but people that only did the easy stuff were stuck at i100.

No matter how stuck up you are and how awesome you believe yourself to be, those "filthy casuals" need something to look forward to too, and the only reason to keep the max iLvl gear exclusive to raiders is to pander to people like you that can only feel good about themselves if they can look down on others.

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Originally Posted by Alise

At some live letter, Yoshida used to say that recommend level is by no meant the best level to do it. He said that he keeps in mind for people who have their FC/LS friends to help pulling up or something.

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So... are you saying no one with the right average ilvl could beat that said content?

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Then came 2.2 and there was i110 gear for raiders but people that only did the easy stuff were stuck at i100.

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This was done partly to slow down raid progression and passing coil simply through overgear as we see way back in the 2.0. So easy ways to boost stats was hampered (weathered soldiery stuff) or removed (crafted ilvl90 jewelry) for some time.
Guess what? 2.3 came out and casuals again on the same level as raiders with their new access to unlimited sands&oils. 115 weapons (as was with 95 weapons) will be still privilege of raiders.

SCOB is fine. The only problem of Ramuh Extreme is, that it came at the same time as the Hunts.

agreed. Hunt sorta mess other contents, not really for the weak will. lol

This shouldn't be much problem with strong static though since they usually committed.

I don't think SCOB or Ramuh or any fight is ever overtuned. All it takes is a number of practice runs and hours to learn the fight and get it down.

What I do find overtuned, however, is Echo buff. The devs should just add an instant win button if they wanted people to get easy wins with minimal effort.

When you work towards something that requires a lot of investment, that time you put in it makes it all the more worthwhile such as university, professional designation, tournaments, etc.

The sense of entitlement in this community amazes me.

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Originally Posted by Gucci_Charms

When you work towards something that requires a lot of investment, that time you put in it makes it all the more worthwhile such as university, professional designation, tournaments, etc.

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Not really. Most of the time when something takes a long time to get at the end there's a lot more relief that it's finally done than joy.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

So... are you saying no one with the right average ilvl could beat that said content?

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Not really, I think he talk mostly about some people stay at that level, but then there are some high level in mix to balance thing out. When he talk it at that time, he point out for DF of the Silent dungeon in the past that people say impossible to beat with lowest requirement. Mainly, I think he doesn't expect whole party to all be at minimum level. He think every party will have higher level members in mix.

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Originally Posted by mDaWg

SNIP

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ITT: Someone with a static that probably raids with them 5+ nights a week, all with voice chat, saying this game is too easy.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

SCOB is fine. The only problem of Ramuh Extreme is, that it came at the same time as the Hunts.

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Stat-wise Ramuh rings often better than 110 rings even though they are only ilvl100 (at least BRD and casters ones are).

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Originally Posted by Gucci_Charms

What I do find overtuned, however, is Echo buff. The devs should just add an instant win button if they wanted people to get easy wins with minimal effort.

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A lot of people still struggle with Twintania, even with 20% echo, and that content is almost an year old already. So - no, echo is not overtuned, echo was promoted as a way for more casual players gain access to content that considered "old" and not "frontline/hardcore/cutting-edge".
I really don't want to see a situation (again) where you can't pass 3-4 years old content no matter how you try, just because you play 5 hours a week and have no mental strength to be determined in game. I was really frustrated back in FF11 when I couldn't have done CoP even after WotG came out just because I was very "casual" as I spent a lot of time and dedication on my work that barred me from any static or even remotedly hardcore participation in game.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Oh boohoo, is the precious princess sad that you can't be a special snowflake anymore?

With the original system in 2.0 there was i90 gear for raiders and i90 gear for people that only did the easy stuff. The BiS items required a mix of the two, thus giving incentive for raiders to raid.

Then came 2.2 and there was i110 gear for raiders but people that only did the easy stuff were stuck at i100.

No matter how stuck up you are and how awesome you believe yourself to be, those "filthy casuals" need something to look forward to too, and the only reason to keep the max iLvl gear exclusive to raiders is to pander to people like you that can only feel good about themselves if they can look down on others.

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Yes, because wanting people to be rewarded for their efforts means "looking down on others". But luckily, because of WoW kiddies like you, even people who don't know shit about their job can be top level and feel awesome! Based Yoshi.

OP relax.. you dont need to clear the content asap, cause SE will make ilvs on Tcoil, gets to everyone sooner or later, like they do with hunts and ST. The majority of ppl who play this game cant do Scoil, and if they get left behind, they will quit the game and Yoshi does not want that. So, "hardcore" ppl liking or not, all the player will get the chance to gear up without doing raids, This game is not on the hardcore's side and will never be. I plan on doing Scoil with my FC soon but im not in a rush, cause i know its not necessary.

I pity the rude woman of the beggining of this topic. Everyone will gear up in this game, girl (or man, since i never meet a girl this rude), if you dont like it, leave.