Is this your first Final Fantasy? Or do you just not remember grinding in past games?

RNG or not.

A grind is still a grind.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ps: then don't come here talk of game of another era or not even an mmorpg for make your point! the mmorpg have evolve if you can't accept it!! quit it!

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Evolved? I thought mmos are still stuck in the "WoW" era?

i did play FF11, but i will not use it as comparaison with FF14 ARR, the difference in the mechanic, technologie, gameplay and era are soo important, that try to find a comparaison outside the pleasure of the nostalgia is... dumb!
i do attack this comparaison because it can't be done. it mustn't done!

we have acces to more powerfull AI, more powerfull computer than the time of FF11. they can devellop more intriguing and more challenging than content that relaying on a dumb RNG grind that the level 0 of the difficulty. where is the difficulty into this? where is the feeling to have accomplish anything exept spend hour to repeat, like if you was working at the chain, the same pattern of skill. nothing! you take no risk, you don't progress, you don't become better at play your class!

i am for stuff that ask hours and day and week of fun and challenge to accomplish. but that! is not fun, is not challenging. all you have describe is not fun is not challenging. all i can read is give the easy stuff that maybe take time, but don't will make me become better or will ask me to use my brain. what you want are activity called nobrain!

FF11 was filled to brink with stuff like this. you didn't feel accomplishement to get an item that you did wanted... but relieved that you have finish with this task. the feeling of accomplishement and relieved are not the same!

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Originally Posted by Desidious

RNG or not.

A grind is still a grind.

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A RNG grind can be done in no time or take age. a grind without rng will take always the same amount of work for anybody doing it. that a huge difference.
we already have seen people spend 36 hours for get 1 atma and some get the 12 atma in 8hrs... is that fair? no! do the one that did get the atma in 8hrs did work more? no it's the inverse! the trouble with RNG is this effort =/= reward

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Originally Posted by Doo

Evolved? I thought mmos are still stuck in the "WoW" era?

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return play at WoW you will see the difference, if you can't sorry for you.

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Originally Posted by Spanky

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Couldn't agree with this more. I think the best part of this system is, for people who enjoy solo play, or might not want to do a lot of end game dungeons, actually CAN get this weapon. For raid groups they can get different weapons if they want. The team did a great job balancing having two type of gears that can be accomplished in two different ways.

two out of three examples mentioned in the OP had actual, trackable goals. Alot of the "grind" in ffxi also had trackable goals. Fates are basically scratch off tickets. You aren't working towards anything during the fate phase except scratching off another ticket. The only skill involved in a scratch off ticket is your ability to go to the store, purchase one, reach for a coin, and scratch off the ticket. The only skill involved in farming fates is your ability to go to the fate, participate (this might involve pressing the sync button! omg!) and remain in the zone until you get credit for participation.

Not only is this portion of the quest totally random and based on luck, but its insulting that the gate of this endgame quest for what will arguably be the best weapon available in the future, involves going to low level, tutorial style content and spamming it.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

we have acces to more powerfull AI, more powerfull computer than the time of FF12. they can devellop more intriguing and more challenging content

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And you proved Doo's point. They can do SO MUCH MORE, yet they choose not to. Maybe they will 6 years from now and since you say "we shouldn't compare FFXI to ARR"...where are these systems?

Trust NPCs - you know, more "intelligent AI" XIV ARR should have had this out of the gate since 1.x had the Companion system to work with.
Monstrosity - Playing and leveling as a Monster. If ARR is so "advanced" why does the old 2002 PS2 MMORPG have a system like this but not the "Far superior" 2013 MMORPG? Yeah it didn't come at release, but ARR is still using concepts from FFXIV 1.0 released back in 2010.

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FF11 was filled to brink with stuff like this. you didn't feel accomplishement to get an item that you did wanted

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You didn't and that's ok. I felt pretty accomplished to get my Relic, Mythic towards completion, Empyrean towards completion and clear Provenance Watcher before the nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Sorata

Couldn't agree with this more. I think the best part of this system is, for people who enjoy solo play, or might not want to do a lot of end game dungeons, actually CAN get this weapon. For raid groups they can get different weapons if they want. The team did a great job balancing having two type of gears that can be accomplished in two different ways.

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How do you solo play fates when they're near finished thanks to the big groups running through them?

Spent a year or so doing farming gil for 2 hourglasses a week and running dynamis twice a week for my Aegis in XI, and four-ish months of farming dynamis almost daily solo once they changed it each for my mandau and gungnir. Then grinding out gil for months, and months, and months to upgrade them all to 99. Atma farming and zodiac book grinding is NOTHING compared to that. I'm fine with the grind. It gives me a lasting goal to work for, which is something that has been somewhat lacking thus far in XIV, and it doesn't necessarily require I be in perfect gear, with a perfect internet connection, and perfect skills. Sure, there are better, easier to obtain weapons out there as of this patch, but that's not why I'm doing the grind. I'm doing it because it's an attainable long term goal to work toward and that's what I've been looking for in this game.

you are eluding the point by simply trying turn around the point i have made.

- the fight in ARR ask much more than in FF11. even if i think we are only at the start and that they are trying to not go to far (they must gear up a bit)
- monstruosity? why? we are playing adventurer, how explain this in the lore of the game? that the difference here. if they have wanted to add it, if it did bring something to the game to have it, they will have add it.

the concept keeps are the world and it lore, the armory systeme (even if i think they really need to drop it or change it at some point for make it more flexible) and... well that all. the map was remake, the whole systeme was remake from scratch, the ui was changed (a couple time), the fighting was changed... ohh year we have keep the item, part of the armory system... but the crafting was changed too (even if i wish they give it a role)....

i can continue for hours, they don't call it arr for nothing. and if you talk of the idea... FF14 ARR have take more of the recent mmorpg than FF14 or FF11 combined.

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Originally Posted by Marael

Spent a year or so doing farming gil for 2 hourglasses a week and running dynamis twice a week for my Aegis in XI, and four-ish months of farming dynamis almost daily solo once they changed it for my mandau and gungnir. Atma farming and zodiac book grinding is NOTHING compared to that. I'm fine with the grind. It gives me a lasting goal to work for, which is something that has been somewhat lacking thus far in XIV, and it doesn't necessarily require I be in perfect gear, with a perfect internet connection, and perfect skills. Sure, there are better, easier to obtain weapons out there as of this patch, but that's not why I'm doing the grind. I'm doing it because it's an attainable long term goal to work toward and that's what I've been looking for in this game.

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and one more time what we are pointing is the atma part filled with RNG not the grind itself.

It's not even consistently long term either, if you're lucky you can be done in a day or less, that's not very long term. Good long term goals are you know, actually long term because they involve a lot of steps, not because of an artificial RNG barrier that can make them shorter or longer.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

we are few, BUT WE ARE MIGHTY!!!

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http://i.imgur.com/WVocaEe.gif

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

or some of us grew up and realized it's not okay to stay in an abusive relationship.

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Seriously? is that supposed to be funny, or are you actually trying to compare grinding to domestic abuse? Either way, you fail. There's the door, I suggest you leave through it.

Keep in mind that without the grinding, you'd do nothing but whine and bitch about there being absolutely nothing for you to do in the game.

I love grinding! I still remember my FFXI LS mates laughing at me for actually skilling up throwing as bard and whm.

Then I capped it, and everyone learned to fear me!

i dont mind the grind at "but", i dont know if im the only one but im the type that like to go do things like duungeons, bosses etc overgeared even the first time on al final fantasies you could go that route whenever you want to. So i think it would be great if it was possible for us to do every current content way overgeard, if you decided to take a long route for it.

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Originally Posted by Rapoza

i dont mind the grind at "but", i dont know if im the only one but im the type that like to go do things like duungeons, bosses etc overgeared even the first time on al final fantasies you could go that route whenever you want to. So i think it would be great if it was possible for us to do every current content way overgeard, if you decided to take a long route for it.

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Grind and but(t) in the same sentence...mnn~:o

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Grind and but(t) in the same sentence...mnn~:o

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somebody got their mind on something else more fun.

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Originally Posted by Slatervonjager

or are you actually trying to compare grinding to domestic abuse?

Keep in mind that without the grinding, you'd do nothing but whine and bitch about there being absolutely nothing for you to do in the game.

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no, that's not what i'm comparing. i'm comparing it to their design choices. very few people like FATEs and nobody randomly decides to do low level FATEs at Lv 50. most people also don't like Range, so they think it's a good idea to design a quest that everybody wants to do by combining these things? they think that this quest is suppose to be fun for us? yes, i am saying they are abusing the playerbase by putting a reward everybody wants at the end of a quest that starts off in a way which nobody actually likes.

i have plenty of things to grind (Myth gear, Coil gear, EX Primals) that doesn't involve low drop rate leveled capped FATEs.

The grind is really not that bad. It does rely 100% on RNG though. The RNG gods love some and hate others but that's pretty much every MMO ever created in a nutshell for the most part. That said, it could be so much worse...I don't care for fates much but I'm glad they added this grind. I'm guessing a fix is coming for the drop rates though. A small part of me hopes they leave it be; I love grinds and time sinks.

*As to the title of the thread, no this is not my first Final Fantasy. :P I've grinded a lot more over the years for less.

Op comes off as haha I got weapon and you don't. They had nothing constructive to say.

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Originally Posted by Slatervonjager

Seriously? is that supposed to be funny, or are you actually trying to compare grinding to domestic abuse? Either way, you fail. There's the door, I suggest you leave through it.

Keep in mind that without the grinding, you'd do nothing but whine and bitch about there being absolutely nothing for you to do in the game.

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I thought it was pretty funny. You on the other hand are much harder to take seriously :(

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Originally Posted by Desidious

RNG or not.

A grind is still a grind.

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THIS^^

RNG and 'grind' go hand in hand.

I always used a gameshark for a double/triple exp or something in the old games to lessen grinds.

I find it rather funny that all the folks scolding people for wanting the Atma portion of the quest changed to be more involving, rewarding, and fun.. seem to be those that had little to no trouble getting their Atma weapon. Perhaps that crowd doesn't want it changed because then they'd have to spend as much time as us lowly unlucky folks instead of getting their weapon ahead of others for no good reason (they essentially got their weapon handed to them by comparison, afterall).

People are not asking to be handed their weapon. A lot of the people complaining about it do enjoy a grind to some extent or another. Most of the people actually like, and look forward to the second part of the quest, which is also a pretty darn long grind. They are not complaining because it's a grind. They are complaining because of one part of the quest, a single portion, is tedious, mindless, and just plain boring for the vast majority of people. A lot of them are going to power through it to get to the "fun" second part.. that doesn't make it a good system. Nor does having other weapons available mean that the system is amazing and shouldn't change because people don't have to do it. The system is for the grinders, the people that wanted a long weapon upgrade process. The people it was aimed at, don't like a part of it. Totally reasonable to voice distaste.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

THIS^^

RNG and 'grind' go hand in hand.

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No they don't, having to collect 250 items is a grind, but if the item drops 100% of the time there is zero RNG.

I think some people would prefer this because its something you can work at over days/weeks/months and actually know you are making progress.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ps: then don't come here talk of game of another era or not even an mmorpg for make your point! the mmorpg have evolve if you can't accept it!! quit it!

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MMORPG's have not evolved, they've been dilluted. They went from 5-course dinner to fast-food to go.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

No they don't, having to collect 250 items is a grind, but if the item drops 100% of the time there is zero RNG.

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Thats farming.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

Thats farming. Grinding is just doing something you don't want to do.

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Farming and Grinding are one and the same :\

Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

MMORPG's have not evolved, they've been dilluted. They went from 5-course dinner to fast-food to go.

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People like fast food ? interesting.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Farming and Grinding are one and the same :\

Think about it.



People like fast food ? interesting.

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To an extent, grinding has a more negative connotation tho.

people farm dungeons because its easy and they know they'll get some immediate reward out of it, people grind to level up because its boring and tedious.

The glorious grind from the last 10-15 years people keep bringing up is cumulative for some people. I've seen a lot of people burn out due to bad luck and/or boredom. Grind has to evolve just like every other aspect of gaming or it starts to drag everything else down with it.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. An extremely inconsistent grind placed in irrelevant content, for the target audience, that prevents them from advancing in any other meaningful way as they try too get through it sounds like a poor experience. When you can divide or multiply the amount of effort/luck required by a factor of 5 and still not cover everyone, somethings may need to be reexamined.

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

To an extent, grinding has a more negative connotation tho.

people farm dungeons because its easy and they know they'll get some immediate reward out of it, people grind to level up because its boring and tedious.

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Grinding and farming are essentially the same thing. They really can be used interchangeably. I would say people grind dungeons, people grind mobs for whatever purpose (leveling or quest items). Grinding is essentially just working towards a goal. The Atma quest most definitely is a grind, as is having to repeatedly go into Coil to obtain a certain piece of gear. Both of those could also be referred to as farming for an item.

You get a reward out of leveling too.. in fact without the reward there really is no grind, as the definition of grind (the dictionary definition, in fact) in this sense is to work towards something.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Farming and Grinding are one and the same :\

Think about it.

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Actually, no. Farming is knowing that you'll be able to go out, put in X amount of time and get Y percent of the way along towards a goal. Grinding is taking the above and instead of working on it at a normal pace, the player makes the choice to finish it in a single session.

Regardless though, your earlier point was spot on. The hang up for most people with RNG is that there's no sense of progression or accomplishment until they're done with the entire task in question. There's a reason checkpoints and milestones are featured in many if not most game systems. They give the player a clearly defined sense of progression that the player can attain no matter what the time is that that player can invest in the game. RNG is basically a lottery.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

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You keep bringing up the same points in every post about the issue. Please realise in all probability that people will spend more time on the second part of the quest than the first even if you are terribly unlucky with the rng. Think about it for a second. 13500 myth, 27 dungeons, 27 fates and 900 mob kills.

The only reason people aren't whining about the grind in the second part is that they are still farming the Atmas. Even for a seasoned grinder like me, I'm not looking forward to the second part of the quest.

tldr: if you can't handle the rng, i think you should just skip this quest entirely because you are not going to enjoy the second part.

I do miss going out in groups for getting xp when I played FF 11. I have to say that Abysea ruined FF 11.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

You keep bringing up the same points in every post about the issue. Please realise in all probability that people will spend more time on the second part of the quest than the first even if you are terribly unlucky with the rng. Think about it for a second. 13500 myth, 27 dungeons, 27 fates and 900 mob kills.

The only reason people aren't whining about the grind in the second part is that they are still farming the Atmas. Even for a seasoned grinder like me, I'm not looking forward to the second part of the quest.

tldr: if you can't handle the rng, i think you should just skip this quest entirely because you are not going to enjoy the second part.

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I completely disagree. I know of several people that are very -happy- about the second part of the quest. In fact, some of them are now on that part and fully loving it. Having a goal to work towards and putting work into something means something. I keep bringing up the same point because it's true both for myself, and for anyone in my circle of friends/guildies who like to grind. We know the second part is going to take longer, and we don't hate it, we welcome it. There is something to be said about being rewarded for your time and actually seeing progress being made, it makes all the difference. That can be progress towards summoning a boss, or progress towards beating a certain part of the quest. The Atma grind portion doesn't fill that whole progress part. You can grind for hours (I'm lucky the maximum I've had was 7) and have absolutely nothing to show for it.

You can try and tell me what I like or don't like, but I know myself pretty well. Visible progress makes worlds of difference when working towards a long term goal. Maybe it doesn't for you personally, but other people aren't you and are going to enjoy things in different ways, or find the same things enjoyable for entirely different reasons.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

You can try and tell me what I like or don't like, but I know myself pretty well. Visible progress makes worlds of difference when working towards a long term goal. Maybe it doesn't for you personally, but other people aren't you and are going to enjoy things in different ways, or find the same things enjoyable for entirely different reasons.

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True, so why just not let the people who enjoy this way have this content being like this? Everything else is catered to those who want the progression clearly shown.

Most past RPGs I've played did not involve a RNG gamble for uber gear, nope. You either got it 100% off a certain sidequest, found it in a chest in the Bonus Postgame Dungeon, or got it 100% off a boss in the Bonus Postgame Dungeon, or something like that.

Yeah, it's a MMO, there are supposed to be grinds. I just don't like the idea of having to fight the RNG for twelve rare drops though, especially when it's tied into FATEs that we mostly have to level sync to over and over again. Couldn't our level 50 weapons been designed around, y'know, level 50 content?

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tldr: if you can't handle the rng, i think you should just skip this quest entirely because you are not going to enjoy the second part.

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Speak for yourself. Myths I can get a whole bunch of ways doing things that I don't find incredibly tedious, boring, and unfun, things that are actually (mostly) tailored toward max level characters; the progress is also steady, with every boss defeat bringing you a bit closer to your goal, and no RNG crap. With atmas, there is currently no other choice in how to go about obtaining them.

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Originally Posted by Spanky

can actually level a job on the fates your doing to get something MORE out of it if you want...

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Erm no...you have to have the Relic Zodiac equipped to get the drop. So there's no way you can level another job.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

True, so why just not let the people who enjoy this way have this content being like this? Everything else is catered to those who want the progression clearly shown.

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There's not a whole lot of content for the progression clearly shown crowd, actually. Coil is full of RNG, and even the Weathered upgrade is an RNG drop from Coil. The second part of the Atma-Animus quest is the only end game weapon quest currently in the game that is a long term, work towards to goal where progress is currently shown. If you like RNG, I would like to point you towards Coil.. if we're going to play that game (the one where we tell people to go elsewhere).

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Originally Posted by Zwipe

I remember camping Leaping Lizzie in FFXI for the boots which i never got...but dam did my heart race when she finally spawned and caught her for the chance of a drop.

I remember playing Phantasy Star II running in the same small spot for hours just to level up.

People seem to forget or are too young to understand that RNG is a big part of RPG games (multi-sided dice). Not to sound like an old man, but back in the day the only thing killing ever guaranteed you was experience points, and thats it. Even WoW had RNG blues that people used for twinks.

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That's the point...killing guaranteed you experience, this FATE thing doesn't guarantee you anything.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

snip.

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Good for you then. I'll be bookmarking this space to link back when people start complaining about the myth grind in a few weeks time.