Very aware of that but I don't really know what to say as there's tons of stuff that's been done in other games and MMOs which doesn't mean we'll get to see them in ARR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowzanon
As a side note: If devs were to give us clothes in general that aren't gender locked (Lightning/Snow outfits, Valentione etc.) and especially dresses, I'd appreciate if they were at the very least flattering to the male physique.
Men in Dresses
Printable View
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03-20-2014, 08:28 PMNuinn
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03-20-2014, 08:31 PMShiobanQuote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
I honestly don't recall being able to wear that for all the years I played, always thought it was a suit.
Colour me wrong on that I guess.
http://i.imgur.com/OCrl49L.png
If you find any other examples, do let me know!
I was actually googling around to see if I could find any Asian MMO's that did this, no luck so far. (Which would be key to the argument here)
I still think that the evidence so far shows that they're very much on the brand of separating items through gender.
(Swimsuits, Guardian Corps/Bohemians, Yukata's) all of which were gender specific and locked items.
Which is why I very much diffuted when you said "I think they'll add it, you're totally wrong!"
Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.
It's extremely rude to say "Well you're just homo/trans-phobic". If it makes other people feel un-easy or un-comfortable then YOU as another human being someone who also expects mutual respect and equality should consider this factor. It's not all about YOU.
Stop trying to exacerbate this point.
Sadly social norms are what most developers will go for, it's not a popular opinion among the trans-gendered crowd I'm very sure, but I can see their stance on this being along the same as their stance on Gay Marriage in the game.
Naoki Yoshida himself said this; "This is a controversial subject, things like this have to be approached carefully as a company, the decision will come from the development team after we've discussed it enough." -
03-20-2014, 08:33 PMKaoru_Nagisa
I have a male miqo'te who requires a dress.
Make it happen, don't listen to the homophobic and transphobic bigots who can't stand things not fitting into their accepted social norms. I require a pretty dress for my miqo'te. (So that I can then dye it black and be a dark force of chaos and destruction) -
03-20-2014, 08:44 PMShadowzanonI would agree. Now in wow nothing was funnier than watching a huge tauren pass by in a weddings dress. It was obviously allowed for fun and well in game people enjoyed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuinn
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03-20-2014, 08:49 PMSpookyGhostIt does, however, say that they're not only incredibly close minded but also very uncomfortable with their sexuality. They also think the world revolves around them and that people should conform to whatever their idea of a "man" and a "woman" is. A burly man with a beard in a dress would be perfectly fine to anyone who isn't insecure - that's their decision, that's how they feel comfortable. A lot of SE's decisions for FF14/FF11 were based on their core audience, the Japanese market - that's why, if marriage is implemented, we probably won't see gay marriage. That doesn't mean it's okay for them to do that or that Japanese customs are supposed to be completely okay with the Western world because "they're from a different place!!". While we won't see dresses for men (most likely) or gay marriage (most likely), that doesn't mean it's fine to critique people for dressing differently. Is that dress really affecting your life in any way? Is it doing ANYTHING more than making you uncomfortable because you're insecure about your sexuality? No, it's really not. Girls wear binders and dress in suits designed for men - is THAT not okay? If not, why not? How is it affecting you? What is it doing to YOU that makes you so uncomfortable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shioban
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03-20-2014, 08:51 PMKaoru_NagisaSorry, but the only reason I see for anyone to be uncomfortable with men being in dresses is they have internalized transphobic/homophobic societal norms. There is literally NOTHING wrong with men wearing dresses or "women's clothes", just as there is NOTHING wrong with women wearing "men's clothes". Why do people not make a big deal about one but get up in arms about the other? Internalized bigotry. Whether you realize it or not, that's what it is. There is NO reason people should be uncomfortable with it unless they were raised in an oppressive and backwards cultural or societal environment which said "no, these things aren't natural and normal".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shioban
It's rude to say someone's a bigot? It's also rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way, though honestly I don't feel bad about being "rude" to people with internalized bigotry. They certainly don't feel bad being rude to people just trying to express themselves how they see fit. If anything, THEY'RE the ones making it "all about them", as you tried to say. -
03-20-2014, 08:52 PMNuinnHow about they stop listening to the people who only read what they want to read, as opposed to what is written?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
P.S. Comments like yours will only make the whole thing more controversial than it is which might add to the devs' insecurity, if you keep swinging words like "homophobic" or "bigoted" around like that. You're welcome.
That's why I want the same for male Roes (only prettier) :p I still think they're not going to give us dresses for boys. Wouldn't mind to be proven wrong by the devs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowzanon
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03-20-2014, 09:03 PMMychaelIf I were in drag, I wouldn't walk into the face of someone who's clearly uncomfortable with my dress and criticize their opinions. While it's true that they may be closed-minded or even a little insecure, that's more a product of their upbringing and cultural norms--hardly things in their sphere of influence. It's no more rude to say "I'm uncomfortable with XXX" than it is to be comfortable with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
You're absolutely right that they have internalized prejudices and trans-/homophobic values. Again, unless you want to blame them for every life event that's shaped their personality--that's your right, I guess...
My point is, you're not helping the argument by preaching condescendingly to all of the anti-dress folks as if they were insensitive and/or clueless. They're not stating their opinions to offend you. -
03-20-2014, 09:06 PMMerleSo... are you telling me that everyone who disagrees with you is "rude"?. Since your opinion is making me feel uncomfortable, does that means you're "rude"? I'm not homophobic/bigoted/whatever and STILL i don't feel comfortable with males wearing dresses because "it doesn't seem natural". Even if you disagree with Shioban, he said really good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
By the way, finally someone talked about "Gay marriage". If Naoki Yoshida thinks thats controversial (and i guess gay marriage is more accepted/natural nowadays), i'm pretty sure this topic will be approached the same way
(I know i may look hypocrit since i'm a guy and i'm playing as a female character) -
03-20-2014, 09:09 PMGreedshhhh, stop trying to use logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Shioban
(just remember what happened in beta phase 1,2,3,4) -
03-20-2014, 09:12 PMShiobanQuote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
STOP READING THIS AS AN ATTACK, Jesus wept, it's like you're not reading it.
It's quite ironic you're calling others small-minded, yet you can't see logical facts placed before you.
Fact: Societies have norms. These norms change over time, our modern society has changed drastically over the past 50 years even more so over the past 100 years.
Men wearing womens clothes wasn't one of them.
Some people are homo/transphobic yes. Not everyone who disagrees with adding this fits under this bill.
Homophobic? Transphobic? No. Clearly I have to state the plain here to prove my point. If I were homophobic, I'd be fearing myself.
I personally would find it un-easy, all the people I've asked so far also agreed, not because "Dem gays is bad!" but because it's just not a normal thing to see, therefore it's confusing and unsettling.
In my entire life and the lives of many others, it's just not a normal occurance. Radical changes or differences will always make people feel uneasy, especially out of context. This doesn't make them out to be homo/transphobic. Stop trying to push this point, it makes no sense.
If a man walks a octopus down a street on a leash people are going to feel un-easy, its not a normal things to see.
Gay Rights
Womens Rights
Electricity
Jeans
Women Wearing Trousers
A TON of different things that took a very very long time to become socially acceptable. It's just a basic fact that men wearing dresses isn't on this list as of yet.
I wasn't trying to "oppress" your desires, I simply pointed out why they wouldn't do it, but as with any of these subjects it HAS to be about oppression and not logic.
There is literally nothing more I could say to make this more clear or to the point.
This is not a personal attack, this is not an opinion, this is fact.
Am I saying, men can't wear dresses? No. (You didn't read any of my posts if you didn't pick up on this already)
Am I saying, it won't be added because it's something people aren't used to yet? Yes.
Am I saying, people aren't bigoted or homophobic? No, everyone is different.
Am I saying, you're a fool if you think everyone against this "Hates the LGBTQ's!" Yes, you are a fool if you're so small minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merle
This is Square Enix's EXACT approach to these situations. If its controversial (which it is, there's no denying this, or the topic wouldn't be so heated) they will apporach is very carefully, and consider the damage it could do the company as a whole if it were approach incorrectly.
As a game about to be launched in China, homosexual orientated considerations will be hitting a big barrier as Square Enix will need to consider how the Chineese will react to it. (Which is going to be a HUGE market)
As reasonable adults, this is a video game not everything we know that not everything can be added to appease the entire population, I know this all too well.
As developers they had to consider what's best for their game as well as their customers. -
03-20-2014, 09:18 PMFreakinZMartin
SE remove this thread please, it's getting out of control.
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03-20-2014, 09:21 PMMychaelSo grab your popcorn. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakinZMartin
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03-20-2014, 09:27 PMOdett
You can only use upbringing and culture to defend close-mindedness up to a certain point, but if you have the resources to educate yourself and still think that your intolerability trumps the needs of others, then you are wrong.
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03-20-2014, 09:36 PMSynapse
Female should be able to have facial hair... you know equality and stuff.
I think armor variety is already lacking, now we gonna have everyone look the same. -
03-20-2014, 09:40 PMDashuto
Boy guys I sure am loving talking about this here online VIDEO GAME and its new content!
Scuse me while I check this thread....
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http://beyondthemarquee.com/wp-conte...lting-face.jpg -
03-20-2014, 09:45 PMFreakinZMartinQuote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto
Hilarous lol :P -
03-20-2014, 09:52 PMMhaericYou should re-read the first few posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shioban
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUTS3R
----Quote:
Originally Posted by CUTS3R
Anyone can be uncomfortable with something as much as they like. They have every right to chalk it up as weird/disgusting/unnatural and then move on. These thoughts, however, are indeed homophobic and/or transphobic by nature despite them having every right to think them. This applies in the same way as someone who thinks that different races are inferior in some way is racist even if they never act on or express that racism externally. Homophobia and transphobia aren't given more lee-way in their definition than other forms of discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shioban
Of course, telling someone that they can't do something that is part of their identity because it makes someone uncomfortable is where it becomes homophobic or transphobic behaviour. 'It makes me or the majority uncomfortable' and 'I or the majority don't like it' are not good enough reasons to deny someone else the ability to be themselves in any situation they choose. This is the very reason that rights are not - or at least should not be - voted on. -
03-20-2014, 10:02 PMKaoru_NagisaI see "facts", but whether they're logical or not remains to be seen. Thing is, yes, societal norms do change. But if everyone is too bloody scared to even attempt to change something, NOTHING will be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shioban
WoW already added dresses, and that's one of the biggest MMOs in the industry, and has been for years. I heard no uproar about them making males able to wear dresses, like, none. I only heard about them doing that in this thread, that's how little of a problem it was (and frankly I think the west is far less accepting/quiet about things like that than Japan is. Japan may not think it's right or normal either, but at least they're mostly quiet about it). SE would likely have just as little uproar about it as WoW did, if they'd actually stop being so terrified of every single homophobic/transphobic/bigoted/internalized misogyny/whatever who posts a negative response to suggestions like these on their forums.
Also, no matter how much someone isn't trans/homophobic, being uncomfortable with a man wearing a dress is still a product of internalized bigotry. They were taught to be like this due to cultural and societal norms around them, whether from the poison that is most of the media, or from friends, or from family, it happened. I'm not saying it's wrong they think that due to growing up in an oppressive and close-minded environment like that (the one at fault in that situation is the people or things that caused them to grow up thinking things like men in dresses isn't "normal"), but if they are continuously educated on why and how it's perfectly normal and shouldn't be something looked upon with revulsion or ridicule, and they continue to do so, then that is being a close-minded bigot. People like that don't WANT to change, they don't WANT to be accepting of people dressing however they please, they want everyone to conform to their societal norms and they will constantly do anything in their power to oppose those societal norms changing.
I never said people should go up and rub their man-in-a-dressness all over someone's face. But how are we supposed to expect people to become comfortable with it if they're never exposed to it because it "makes them uncomfortable"? There are ways to still be a man in a dress and be around people who are uncomfortable with this fact, without being overbearing about it. This argument is like saying "I shouldn't be openly gay in public because it makes people uncomfortable to see it". How is that any more fair to those people than to the people uncomfortable with seeing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mychael
And honestly, if someone sounds to me as though they are not even willing to understand WHY something is normal and acceptable, and just continue to be close-minded, I will talk to them as condescendingly as I want. They obviously aren't going to change no matter how nice I am about it, so why should I give them the courtesy? Give what you take. Shioban may not be one of those types, but there are some people in this thread who are, and I am not gonna waste time trying to calmly explain to them why it shouldn't be something they look at with revulsion, because they obviously aren't going to hear the argument. They're too set in their bigoted close-mindedness.
I'm saying that telling people they can't have something, that they can't have EQUALITY of all bloody things, is rude. And despite you saying you aren't homophobic/transphobic/bigoted, you still have internalized bigotry from societal norms taught to you since you were a baby. That isn't your fault, but you have to realize that just because you were taught that way, doesn't mean it's right or fair to others. The mindset of "it's not natural" is the same thing that's preventing gay men and women from getting married to each other, and stuff like that is not right and it is not something society should accept as "normal". A man wearing a dress or two people of the same sex wanting to get married should be just as normal as a woman wearing pants and a hetero couple getting married. They are the same exact things, just for some reason society decided that one is acceptable and one is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merle
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03-20-2014, 10:09 PMDashutoAs a neutral party I would like to inform you, personal identity is not a right. And the way you go tossing it around is extremely volatile and one sided, including to the cause you are trying to support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
You have essentially at this point descended to saying you are correct because "you are". Because "it is the way of things". While at the same time, the other camp of this thread has been doing the same by claiming "men don't wear dresses" and so forth "its just the way of things".
What needs to be realized by the people constantly labeling each other and nagging about in this thread for an online VIDEO GAME. Is that you can't label each other sides as "wrong". They simply aren't right or wrong. They're all opinions. As difficult as it can be to believe, someone not accepting someone elses beliefs doesn't make them a _____phobe. It is an opinion or a preference. The moment you begin to believe you are on the side of justice/right instead of just containing another opinion, is the moment you begin hurting everything you want to represent.
Those who want dresses aren't wrong.
Those who don't like it aren't wrong.
Disliking each other for it is not wrong.
Harassing one another for it is.
So where does the real subject end up? Square Enix. It is the company with the "issue" at hand and simply put we all know what will be the end of it. The gay marriage debate was something they were too cautious to address and you can be fairly certain that trans anything will fall into the same category.
And for bloody sake people, someone is not a homophobe just because they do not agree with homosexuality. That is not what a homophobe is, stop labeling every random naysayer or uncomfortable person that. Talk about burning bridges. I see some in here attempting to wield it like a knife or insult: all its doing is revealing your own desperation/bias.
With that said I support equal marriage and anything people feel brings equality. -
03-20-2014, 10:12 PMNuinn
You know.... I see people taking WoW as an example in this particular case. My personal feeling is WoW didn't do it cause they wanted equality for all but rather cause it was funny to see "bros" in dresses. Pure comedic purpose, which just rubs me the wrong way, for the same reason I feel irked whenever they write a stereotyped gay or trans character into a scripted show.... if that in fact was the reason why they did it. I'd love to be wrong with my gut feeling.
EDIT: Oh and so what if it's just a video game? We're all humans playing and interacting with each other.... -
03-20-2014, 10:15 PMKaoru_NagisaI stopped reading right here because this has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever heard anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto
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03-20-2014, 10:17 PMDashutoThat's a shame because its the truth. It simply isn't a right. That is reality 101. You can obviously tell yourself otherwise or even take it out on me for pointing it out, but that won't change things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
Have you ever traveled the world? How many countries have you visited? If you don't know what I'm getting at then you simply aren't qualified to make that kind of reply.
People can have anything imagineable as a part of their identity and that doesn't make it right. Moral compass, sexual and gender direction, faith, personal beliefs ranging from the mundane to the complicated and hedonistic.
What is considered entirely right-and-just in one cultural background could be completely unacceptable in another.
Another could be viewed as entirely wrong by many, but in a specific culture be considered the right and just thing to do.
This is why personal identity is never a right, absolutely nothing short of a magical utopia could ever support an existence where peoples personal identities do not clash or do things to harm, traumatize, or make one another uncomfortable.
There is not a single culture on this earth where a persons personal identity is a right. You can and will be punished or not tolerated socially for a non harmful personal belief in them all, including the nordic countries. -
03-20-2014, 10:19 PMMerleI Agree, but... like Shioban perfectly said, it's all about the media. This is a business: Square-Enix wants to get profit, and this kind of sensitive subjects may go successful or be the finish blow to Final Fantasy XIV. We're not talking about "change something" (which is cool and i'm ok with it), we're talking about sales. It may be great...or not...Probably is too risky for Square-EnixQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
I guess the issue here is, like you said, that kind of internalized bigotry is because societal norms taught to since we were babies... kinda hard to avoid it. I mean, """"i don't care"""" about men wearing dress. I know they have right to do it if they want to. I feel uncomfortable about it and i know is wrong to think that way (i mean, about feeling umconfortable), but still i'll feel uncomfortable. It's a bit weird... i can accept it with no problems, but not inside of my mind o.o -
03-20-2014, 10:23 PMRjainSays the gentleman or woman who is playing a little boy. Ah, the XIV forums, I love you sweetly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llyr
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03-20-2014, 10:25 PMYarikh
Doesn't bother me.
A couple of fcmates might wear it to our coil runs, lol. But I doubt SE will allow it to happen. If it does, cool. If not, shrug - okay. -
03-20-2014, 10:27 PMVersiroth
If you are a cross dresser in real life, why not just play a girl in game? Isn't that the whole point of you cross dressing in the first place? Because you see yourself as female? Well, this game will do you one better than being a guy that dresses like a girl. You can actually BE a girl too! No expensive procedures required!
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03-20-2014, 10:27 PMSynapse
People who want these things are similar like hardcore, you are the 1% percent.
Also, this is an International Game, world does not have to "follow" your country's path. -
03-20-2014, 10:33 PMmbncdActually, there are plenty of guys who see themselves as guys and identify more with their male persona but at the same time prefer to wear female clothes and make up. There's a lot more to cross dressing than embracing the little girl inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
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03-20-2014, 10:33 PMXandim
Just let us wear whatever we want... I sure would love to make my Manly looking Hyur a little princess and have a nice tea party with my friends :D
I find it kinda funny when ppl say that this isnt 'normal' (for a lack of a proper word) irl so it shouldnt be in game..... Because its soooooo normal to see cat people running around, using magic and fightning HUGE beasts saving the world... oh wait xD
Lets all be pretty little princes and princesses together, \o/
Life isn't so black and white, not just because a man likes to wear woman's clothes makes him identify as a woman. Just like if a woman wearing "man's clothes" doesnt make them identify themselves as a man. Besides, woman get all the good stuff... different dresses, hairdos.... All man get is black/dark blue tuxedos... We want color too man :'( =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
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03-20-2014, 10:34 PMKaoru_NagisaWoW was able to introduce men in dresses easily enough, that didn't seem to hurt their sales. Regardless of their reasoning for it, the fact is they still made it available, and WoW isn't the worse for wear because of it (that game's going downhill for a ton of other reasons, but certainly not that). SE could as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merle
People make a huge fuss about it here, but I can bet 90% of the people howling about how wrong it is and how it shouldn't ever be added wouldn't give two shakes of a rat's tail about it if they saw in it game. Because despite what some people want to think, they can IGNORE something that isn't affecting them. Unless a guy in a dress comes up to you and starts harassing you for no reason (which they'd likely do without a dress anyway), there is nothing about men being in dresses in game that would negatively affect a player's ability to play the game. -
03-20-2014, 10:38 PMMhaericYes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto
No, one 'side' is who someone is. The other 'side' is someone's opinion. This is why the opinion that 'men in dresses' (a transphobic description of a transwoman, by the way) is wrong carries less weight than the desire of someone who is a transwoman to be allowed her full dignity at all times. Including in a video game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto
Just like how someone is not a racist just because they do not 'agree with' (translation: like) black people. Got it. /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by Dashuto
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03-20-2014, 10:40 PMKaoru_NagisaMhaeric explained it better than I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
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03-20-2014, 10:41 PMSeifYou're awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
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03-20-2014, 10:41 PMMerleMmm how many players were playing WoW when they introduced men in dresses? because FFXIV is "starting as new game". FFXIV 1.0 had really bad reputation and a lot of people is mistrustful about 2.0 (sadly, me too, and i played 1.0 since 1.20 patch, 3 years ago) . Maybe is too soon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
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03-20-2014, 10:45 PMKaoru_Nagisa1.8 million? I think? I remember hearing a total like that somewhere, could be more, could be less by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merle
Regardless, the number of people playing a game means nothing. Even if WoW had the same number of people play as ARR does, they likely still wouldn't have gotten any kind of backlash over letting male characters wear dresses. ARR likely won't either, if SE would stop being so terrified of doing basically ANYTHING for fear everyone will jump ship because of grumblings over 1.0. -
03-20-2014, 10:48 PMVersirothQuote:
Originally Posted by mbncd
So, they identify as men, but like to dress and look like women? Well... color me confused as that statement really does contradict itself. Then again, I suppose I'm not one to question others reasons for doing such things, so I'll just drop it. -
03-20-2014, 10:49 PMDashutoBehold just one example of millions where depending on culture and ,what you just stated as wrong is NOT WRONG and fairly normal for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/...aid_sign02.jpg
Just like how it can be wrong to you in your culture.
Why is it? Because you say it is? Where is this law that the entire world has agreed upon which states "Personal identity is a right". Please note this law would have to include identities you yourself cannot agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
That is still opinion and personal belief. You can paint it however you want, its still two sides clashing. One person will be uncomfortable with the others presence, the other is uncomfortable because they have to compromise what/who they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
Once again place yourself in a culture outside of your present one like that image above, imagine you are a non japanese guy staring at that sign.. Should the non japanese guy dive past that sign? Is he right or will he be punished? Does he have a right to his personal identity? Should that sign not be there? Then why is it there? Personal identity is not a right.
It doesn't work that way. Know what works?
Tolerance. Tolerance of other's opinions of you, and their tolerance of yours.
I will say it again as a reminder while tensions flare: I support people who want to wear dresses ingame and I support equality in all forms. I simply don't support demonizing each other with uneducated opinions and kneejerk reactions. -
03-20-2014, 10:50 PMMhaericGoogle the term gender queer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
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03-20-2014, 10:51 PMMerleTrue. I think the issue here is the community. Maybe we shouldn't compare WoW and FFXIV because they're not the same and therefore the impact is not the same. Like we shouldn't compare them with LoL community (i'm beginning to find a lot of toxic players, tho)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa