Death Penalty

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Originally Posted by Reika

Dont see what the blood rite effect will do for a penalty, I dont remember losing HP while using blood rite. Maybe youre thinking about a different buff/debuff :P.

but losing 10 anima when dying will sure make people fight smarter and harder. I would vote for that one as a penalty.

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Oh crap maybe I thought of the wrong ability. Thaumaturge gets the ability to increase it's magic potency and sacrifice hp for every spell while the buff is active. Isn't that Blood Rite?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Oh crap maybe I thought of the wrong ability. Thaumaturge gets the ability to increase it's magic potency and sacrifice hp for every spell while the buff is active. Isn't that Blood Rite?

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Yes.

/10char

As I have gotten older and have less time to play then I use too, I think I have stopped wanting a exp penalty for death. It's just not fun. I understand the concept behind it, especially considering there isn't much of any penalty for death as it is now. It's just not for me anymore, I don't get as excited as I use to when I have yet another time sink :)

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Oh crap maybe I thought of the wrong ability. Thaumaturge gets the ability to increase it's magic potency and sacrifice hp for every spell while the buff is active. Isn't that Blood Rite?

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yea Blood Rite and Blood Rite II increase potency, but I don't remember seeing myself lose HP from casting spells, or anyone else that uses it either.

To OP: If you think this Death Penalty in FFXIV or lack there of as I would call it is rough you should probably explore other MMOs. To me dying means you should lose EXP/SP sometimes deleveling your character and also giving it a 5 minute weakness. There is practically no repercussions for dying in this game, thus most Archers shoot blindly until a mob is dead not worry about getting killed in the process. If you do get killed who cares, you took most of the mobs HP and come back 3 minutes later and your ready to go...and on top of that you gained the SP while lying on the ground...LOL. This game in my opinion needs more of a penalty to keep players from going crazy and make hate control more of a focal point. But that all begins with harder fights, better enmity, etc...that's for another topic.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

I can say the same. If you want a game with harsher DP then go play games with harsher DP. But what would be the point of that statement if we are talking about FFXIV?

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You can say the same, sure. Except for the part where I wasn't advocating a harsher DP nor comparing this to any other game. You were the one doing that. Which does beg the question, what is the point of that link if we are talking about FFXIV?

Again, either move on to another game or actually invest more than 30minutes on this one before deciding what's flawed.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/m...77-geniusprime

Click the "Characters" tab.

This is why SE implemented this forum feature, so we can clearly tell who is playing the game and giving honest feedback, and who is playing for 10 mins then going "screw this, it sucks" then jumping onto the forums to complain. Also a great tool for immediately discovering who is simply a troll with an account and no game time, and who is actually a player. Love it.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

"Personally, I think the penalty in XIV could be a bit harsher, for a few reasons.

Let me give you just one example why... and this is further illustrated in the next bit...

On one of my previous tries of FFXIV, I got sick of doing leves with other players. Why? Because they basically failed their way to a win. In other words, they 'zombied' their way through them. They would take a leve at a higher difficulty than they could reasonably handle. They'd go in, do as much damage as possible, die, respawn... wait off their death penalty - sometimes not even doing that much - go back... do as much damage as possible... die... respawn... go back... and so on. They would continue to do this until the leve was completed...

I suggested maybe using strategy to try and take them out more cautiously so we don't die so much. The response I got was pretty much "What's the point? Death is pretty tame in this game, so there's no point in being strategic. Just as good to just rush in and do as much DPS as we can".

That should never happen. Death should never be something that's "shrugged off" because there's no meaningful penalty for it.

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While I definitely understand where you're coming from, I actually enjoy "zombieing" my way through leves (though until this discussion I wasn't aware that was a thing). The thing is personally I get a rush from taking on mobs of a much higher level, and sometimes coming out on top. Other times not so much. The point is I don't feel you should decide where my fun in this game comes from.

Also, I agree with the OP in the sense that this death penalty sucks. And before everyone blindly attacks me, hear me out. I've played other MMOs with "harsher death penalties" and I never had a problem with their implementation. Why you ask? Because there was a consequence, yes, but the consequence wasn't "I'm going to walk around/browse the net/do anything but actually play for three minutes."

I feel the way this game handles its death penalty does not give a sense of dread, like most of the posters here seem to want. It actually just acts as an inconvenience that breaks the flow of the game and compels me to stop playing for its duration. With this death penalty, no one really is getting what they want, and that's what I believe the OP is trying to express.

Also to other people who just say "go play 'Insert different MMO here'" doesn't get anyone anywhere. This isn't about other games and we really should work on our focus. Not to mention that at this point, it isn't even clever anymore.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/m...77-geniusprime

Click the "Characters" tab.

This is why SE implemented this forum feature, so we can clearly tell who is playing the game and giving honest feedback, and who is playing for 10 mins then going "screw this, it sucks" then jumping onto the forums to complain. Also a great tool for immediately discovering who is simply a troll with an account and no game time, and who is actually a player. Love it.

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I like that they did this as well :)

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Originally Posted by Galoot

To OP: If you think this Death Penalty in FFXIV or lack there of as I would call it is rough you should probably explore other MMOs. To me dying means you should lose EXP/SP sometimes deleveling your character and also giving it a 5 minute weakness. There is practically no repercussions for dying in this game, thus most Archers shoot blindly until a mob is dead not worry about getting killed in the process. If you do get killed who cares, you took most of the mobs HP and come back 3 minutes later and your ready to go...and on top of that you gained the SP while lying on the ground...LOL. This game in my opinion needs more of a penalty to keep players from going crazy and make hate control more of a focal point. But that all begins with harder fights, better enmity, etc...that's for another topic.

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Like others, you share the opinion that because folks are playing the game in a way you don't like they should be penalize and measures should be taken to prevent them from playing the game in that manner. In reality their method of playing doesn't not directly affect you. So instead of wanting a system which rewards folks like yourself who play the game more strategically you specifically want to punish gamers who don't want to play the way you play. That is such a bizarre but fully realized point of view in this thread. Which is disturbing to say the least.

Again reward the gamer for playing well instead of penalizing them when they die;you die you are sent back to the crystal, if its a leve you loss time, its its not a leve you suffer more equipment damage or something along those lines. There are various ways in which the gamer can receive a penalty without adding timesinks and without making their gaming experience miserable.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/m...77-geniusprime

Click the "Characters" tab.

This is why SE implemented this forum feature, so we can clearly tell who is playing the game and giving honest feedback, and who is playing for 10 mins then going "screw this, it sucks" then jumping onto the forums to complain. Also a great tool for immediately discovering who is simply a troll with an account and no game time, and who is actually a player. Love it.

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Yep because the character tab is a clear indication of how long I play the game.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

Yep because the character tab is a clear indication of how long I play the game.

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It is. What you've been discussing also makes it obvious how little experience you have with this game. Like the fact that you keep forgetting raise exist.

There's a few options in this case. You've either barely played, have an absolutely horrendous memory, or you're doing a very poor job of trolling and need to step up your game.

There should be a death penalty. Doesn't have to be XP loss, doesn't have to be getting sent to the graveyard, DEFINITELY doesn't have to be like Everquest/Diablo, but it needs to exist. Lenient (and by that I mean nonexistant) penalties just encourages scrubby play and teamwork. There's no fun in it for people that are looking for actual depth in a game.

When I go into a hard battle in online games, I like to think "My party needs to be on point and I can't make too many mistakes or else we will lose and die horrible deaths". It makes me nervous, uneasy, and excited. You know why I like that? Because when I actually win it feels amazing to know that you overcame the possibility of getting your EXP bar molested or something like that AND you got the awesome drops/dungeon clear/whatever. It's a matter of preference though, kinda like how you would feel much better clearing a Contra game on hard than you would beating Call of Duty hurr durr respawn where you died for free.

I don't get why someone having a different opinion has to turn into a beatdown. :(

Thinking the death penelty is unecessary does not make a troll. Calling him stupid for having the idea makes that person a troll.

Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

It is. What you've been discussing also makes it obvious how little experience you have with this game. Like the fact that you keep forgetting raise exist.

There's a few options in this case. You've either barely played, have an absolutely horrendous memory, or you're doing a very poor job of trolling and need to step up your game.

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Except you don't get raise until rank 38 DoM. Not everyone has that. Him not taking that into account does not indicate either of those things. You really shouldn't jump to such extreme conclusions.

What's more I completely agree with Chezen. We gamers already have horrible reputations. Let's try not to prove them true people.

i'm disagree with death penalty like ffxi, ffxi is old game, in the past it works but now, ffxiv need more people for survive, same system that ffxi could be kill the game
so i prefer death penalty system like WoW, with better gear you paid more for repairs

Airlea. If it makes you feel better to label me as troll then knock yourself out. If it is easier to take the "insult" route instead of discussing the topic at hand, again knock yourself out. But we all know that raise is ONLY available at lvl 38 which makes it pretty much out or reach for the first 37 ranks of magic classes which its only available to and you need to be in a party for someone to raise you. After all you can't raise yourself. For something that conditional it baffles me why you would point it out as some Achilles heel to my point or my the time spent playing the game. But I guess if you are not lvl 50 your opinion does not count.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

Like others, you share the opinion that because folks are playing the game in a way you don't like they should be penalize and measures should be taken to prevent them from playing the game in that manner. In reality their method of playing doesn't not directly affect you. So instead of wanting a system which rewards folks like yourself who play the game more strategically you specifically want to punish gamers who don't want to play the way you play. That is such a bizarre but fully realized point of view in this thread. Which is disturbing to say the least.

Again reward the gamer for playing well instead of penalizing them when they die;you die you are sent back to the crystal, if its a leve you loss time, its its not a leve you suffer more equipment damage or something along those lines. There are various ways in which the gamer can receive a penalty without adding timesinks and without making their gaming experience miserable.

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No, I think your missing everyones point when most of us say that we want more of a death penalty, because it promotes skillful play...Not ones who go into a fight thinking they can just throw all attacks at a mob and win. This breeds people who have no experience in tough fights and will not fit well for the new grind party system that will be implemented. And I'm not saying I want to punish the way you play, but otherwise suggesting maybe find another game that is easier for you to just hack and slash. The way your portraying yourself right now leads me to believe you won't make it in the Dungeons or other skillful battles.

Note to self: Don't PT with Brama Prime when it comes to strategic battles and hate control, which is the concept of most MMOs...

Oh no not again, remember FFXI
Tank afraid to tank cuz White does not know how to heal.
And Healer afraid to heal cuz Tank does not provoke.

Just in case you guys forgot.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

Because when you die you respawn at the last location. That is not a reward but a penalty because of dying.

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And if you die right at the Aetheryte? (it happens, especially in leves) By your theory someone can get right the hell back up and just keep fighting. That's what people are referring to when they talk about "zombie-zerging".

Would you be OK if Square still slowed down your skills and then charged you money to return to the Aetheryte after you die? I'm only asking because this is from that link you posted regarding GW2:

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Players who have recently been downed several times will take longer to revive each time (timesink, just like delayed use of abilities) If no one revives you, you can spend a small amount of gold to come back at a waypoint. (what FFXIV already lets you do....for FREE)

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I think the the gear-damage death penalty would be a good fit for FFXIV.

Maybe 8%, and every time you die while weakened, a multiplier effect is added.

Also, I would make it so that if gear hits the 0% mark, it becomes a generic 'destroyed' item, it loses all bonuses/states and cannot be repaired at all. (eg, destroyed sword, destroyed lance, destroyed helm, etc..)

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Originally Posted by odette

i'm disagree with death penalty like ffxi, ffxi is old game, in the past it works but now, ffxiv need more people for survive, same system that ffxi could be kill the game
so i prefer death penalty system like WoW, with better gear you paid more for repairs

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As I stated earlier, I think the penelty is too light myself. And honestly, for my own preference, gear repair really doesn't do anything. Money grows on trees here. (Maybe it won't always, but it's still an easy fix). Unless the repairs stacked and would actually break down enough to take you out of the fight after say, 3 times.

But gear stats don't even matter that much right now, some say you can fight in your drawers and win. Haven't tried that myself lol. Hope that changes with the reforms.

I'm all for a real death penalty. As a veteran XI player I can't say I loved it all the time, though. lol Sometimes I was close to bite into my keyboard. Good times~ lol
But XIV as it is now is

a) way too easy

b) offers almost no incentive to play thoughtfully.

While I'm not quite sure I'd like to see de-lvling return, I'd love to see something along the lines of gear damage upon death or a EXP loss without a level down above my head. Basically anything that stops a player from trying a certain boss like ten times in a row within say five minutes.

Random note:
Demon's Souls/ Dark Souls FTW! (The last boss was so unbelievably easy lol)

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Originally Posted by CoolBlitz

Oh no not again, remember FFXI
Tank afraid to tank cuz White does not know how to heal.
And Healer afraid to heal cuz Tank does not provoke.

Just in case you guys forgot.

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I haven't forgot...but also doesn't this promote skillful play? If you have a tank who is afraid to fight because the healer sucks...maybe the healer should be removed from the PT and develop his/her skills before PTing? Again I don't see the problem with having a more serious death penalty to make players better...

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Originally Posted by Galoot

No, I think your missing everyones point when most of us say that we want more of a death penalty, because it promotes skillful play...Not ones who go into a fight thinking they can just throw all attacks at a mob and win. This breeds people who have no experience in tough fights and will not fit well for the new grind party system that will be implemented. And I'm not saying I want to punish the way you play, but otherwise suggesting maybe find another game that is easier for you to just hack and slash. The way your portraying yourself right now leads me to believe you won't make it in the Dungeons or other skillful battles.

Note to self: Don't PT with Brama Prime when it comes to strategic battles and hate control, which is the concept of most MMOs...

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This is obviously the type of community we need to habor in this game. Hate on anyone who does not share your point of view. Your comment is rather extreme and borderline fanatical.

I don't play to die. I have no desire to die in this game or any game. To also assume that my strategy is an incorrect assumption.

You incorrectly associate my views on death penalty to lack of strategy. Rather absurd to say the least, especially when I play as a support class in ALL of the MMOs I indulge. You know the person who tries to keep people alive. Must say that your conclusion is an interestingly incorrect deduction.

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Originally Posted by Galoot

No, I think your missing everyones point when most of us say that we want more of a death penalty, because it promotes skillful play...Not ones who go into a fight thinking they can just throw all attacks at a mob and win. This breeds people who have no experience in tough fights and will not fit well for the new grind party system that will be implemented. And I'm not saying I want to punish the way you play, but otherwise suggesting maybe find another game that is easier for you to just hack and slash. The way your portraying yourself right now leads me to believe you won't make it in the Dungeons or other skillful battles.

Note to self: Don't PT with Brama Prime when it comes to strategic battles and hate control, which is the concept of most MMOs...

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An elitist mentality is a dangerous thing to have, my friend. While you have valid points in your argument, you go on to say that people who don't play the game the way YOU feel it should be played have to find other games? People may actually enjoy this game for different reasons than you do. And I know quite a few who choose to play solo simply so they don't have to deal with others controlling how they play the game. We live in a world full of people with different ideals. That reflects in MMOs, and it's time we accepted it.

This entire argument should not exist. The penalty in FFXIV is not even harsh. It is simply an inconvenience.

Yes, OP. Death is inconvenient. It should be inconvenient. Should there be rewards for staying alive? Yes. Should that be reason to remove any penalties? No.

If you don't like having to browse the net for 3 minutes due to dying, here's a thought - don't die.

If you die once or twice a month, you can easily overlook a couple 3 minute breaks. If you are losing so much time from the death penalty and being majorly inconvenienced then you die way too much. If you die way too much, you are clearly in at least 1 way incompetent at this game. There is no shame in that, since it is after all a game. It may just mean this game is not for you.

Do not try to even suggest that such a basic Death Penalty that can be described more accurately as an inconvenience rather than a penalty, is something even remotely important of a thing to be looked into due to it being 'too much' - especially with there being much more imperative changes that this game needs.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

It is a penalty if it is NOT my intentions to die. Folks using death in this manner is clearly showing that traveling is flawed.

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No, the fact that people can, and regularly do, suicide-port is evidence that there isn't enough of a punishment to actually dissuade dying.

geniusprime, while I respect your opinion and your right to it, I wholeheartedly disagree. The death penalty in this game is far from steep. In most current MMO's you will suffer far worse a penalty for dieing. If there wasn't some kind of punishment for being killed there would be no motivation for players to learn to play their roles and improve themselves. If anything the death penalty should be harsher than it is now.

However, I feel there are more noteworthy things to complain about in this game. I may still be fairly new here but during my time in game I have noticed many things that need improving. For starters the game engine is poorly optimized and would benefit greatly with a 64 bit executable option for those on a 64 bit OS and with DX 10/11 support. My point being of course that things could be far, far worse when it comes to dieing in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Galoot

No, I think your missing everyones point when most of us say that we want more of a death penalty, because it promotes skillful play...Not ones who go into a fight thinking they can just throw all attacks at a mob and win. This breeds people who have no experience in tough fights and will not fit well for the new grind party system that will be implemented. And I'm not saying I want to punish the way you play, but otherwise suggesting maybe find another game that is easier for you to just hack and slash. The way your portraying yourself right now leads me to believe you won't make it in the Dungeons or other skillful battles.



Note to self: Don't PT with Brama Prime when it comes to strategic battles and hate control, which is the concept of most MMOs...

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I want more skill full play and i dont want a heavy death penalty, heavy death penalty makes people cry babies, and scaredy pants. A Death penalty that slows progress or may cause you to lose, or have try again from scratch is fine. but death penalties that directly screw your SP, money, etc dont make a better strategies, just safer playstyles. Dying has often been a possibility in the harder missions throughout rpg history. When death is a 3 minute debuff/back to hp/wast cure mage time/mp for a battle its a viable technique for a battle to have. When death is lose massive money, sp or other thing that was invested in outside of the current battles, its a bad idea.


not to say the penalty we have now is bad, just that some people want to bring back the harsh death penalities that has people playing safe, and taking away from monsters the ability to have moves deadly enough to kill any but the strongest members of your party.

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Originally Posted by Symon17

Except you don't get raise until rank 38 DoM. Not everyone has that. Him not taking that into account does not indicate either of those things. You really shouldn't jump to such extreme conclusions.

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These are not extreme conclusions. r38 is less than halfway to cap. It's common knowledge for anyone that's played for a bit or taken the time to look the info up. The reason I bring this up, is because endgame is where a death penalty is needed most. If you fail to manage hate properly, fail to heal properly, etc, you should be penalized for poor play. The loss of that member at full strength for a period of time also hurts the group, which gives them more incentive for "skillful play." With the addition of time being a factor in rewards as well, this will become even more important, as it should.

I could concede eliminating the weakness factor outside of timed events. I'd still strongly disagree with it, as it would allow players to zombie open world NMs when more difficult ones are added. Eliminating it for timed events would be detrimental to skillful play given the upcoming changes.

I'm not calling him stupid for his idea. I was calling him out on his double standards and circular logic.

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Originally Posted by Frisque

And if you die right at the Aetheryte? (it happens, especially in leves) By your theory someone can get right the hell back up and just keep fighting. That's what people are referring to when they talk about "zombie-zerging".

Would you be OK if Square still slowed down your skills and then charged you money to return to the Aetheryte after you die? I'm only asking because this is from that link you posted regarding GW2:

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In context, the link to GW2 was specifically pointing to a view outside of mine about DP. Thats about it. The person I was replying to was implying that my view is extreme minority while you have a developer that is trying to get rid of death penalty.

And the quote you referring mentions or specifically states that the player has been down several times. I have indicated before that I am for alternative methods to death penalty that would give a greater sense of danger without taking the player out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'm all for a real death penalty. As a veteran XI player I can't say I loved it all the time, though. lol Sometimes I was close to bite into my keyboard. Good times~ lol
But XIV as it is now is

a) way too easy

b) offers almost no incentive to play thoughtfully.

While I'm not quite sure I'd like to see de-lvling return, I'd love to see something along the lines of gear damage upon death or a EXP loss without a level down above my head. Basically anything that stops a player from trying a certain boss like ten times in a row within say five minutes.

Random note:
Demon's Souls/ Dark Souls FTW! (The last boss was so unbelievably easy lol)

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No wai! now i dont wanna play Demon's Souls again...

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

I have indicated before that I am for alternative methods to death penalty that would give a greater sense of danger without taking the player out of the game.

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So, you'd be up for, say, corpse runs, xp loss, and durability loss?

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Originally Posted by Airlea

These are not extreme conclusions. r38 is less than halfway to cap. It's common knowledge for anyone that's played for a bit or taken the time to look the info up.

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The cap is 80?

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Originally Posted by Symon17

An elitist mentality is a dangerous thing to have, my friend. While you have valid points in your argument, you go on to say that people who don't play the game the way YOU feel it should be played have to find other games? People may actually enjoy this game for different reasons than you do. And I know quite a few who choose to play solo simply so they don't have to deal with others controlling how they play the game. We live in a world full of people with different ideals. That reflects in MMOs, and it's time we accepted it.

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I apologize Symon if you took offense to my posting to geniusprime maybe you guys are "Prime" pals, but I'd also appreciate it if you wouldn't call me an elitist. Because I don't think I'm better then anyone else, however I don't like the promoting of bad play. And if you don't think the current system promotes bad play then your mistaken big time. I'm also not telling others how to play the game, but I can say that if the game was structured properly this kind've behavior wouldn't be happening.

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Originally Posted by Symon17

The cap is 80?

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40-50 takes as much SP as 1-39.

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Originally Posted by Symon17

The cap is 80?

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So delicious.

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Originally Posted by Galoot

I apologize Symon if you took offense to my posting to geniusprime maybe you guys are "Prime" pals, but I'd also appreciate it if you wouldn't call me an elitist. Because I don't think I'm better then anyone else, however I don't like the promoting of bad play. And if you don't think the current system promotes bad play then your mistaken big time. I'm also not telling others how to play the game, but I can say that if the game was structured properly this kind've behavior wouldn't be happening.

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and a severe death penalty promotes cowardly play. i am not saying this penalty is severe or even needs to be changed, but since our sp is capped on mobs 10 ranks above you the fights against the goblin and basilisk would cease. if there is no reward and penalties become too severe people will go back to being safe instead of taking risks.

i like to challenge myself against the toughest mob i can with the group i play with most times. if the penalties towards trying tough mobs became too tough that would stop and i would do the mobs that is the top of my sp cap and nothing above it unless they had rewards i felt outweighed the risk.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

So, you'd be up for, say, corpse runs, xp loss, and durability loss?

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Durability possibly but the others are just dumb (not you off course).