AOE Toggle Needs to GO

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Pushing enter is part of the AoE prompt. There are way too many steps in this game to throwing a cure on someone.

How it works:

1. Select a target
2. Hit enter to bring up your action bar
3. Flip action bar to find your cure spell
4. Select Cure
5. AoE toggle button appears in middle of screen. Toggle and/or hit enter to confirm (1-2 steps depending)

That's up to 6 steps.

How it should work:

1. Select target
2. Select Cure. There should be no flipping of action bars because they should show all at once. And cure should go off immediately with no extra confirmation.

That would be two steps.

I'd much rather go through 2 steps than 6. Removing the AoE toggle would remove that last annoying confirmation you have to perform every single time.



My UI preferences are besides the point. This is an issue of efficiency vs inefficiency.

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Game UI designed for play with only Keyboard / keyboard + mouse / Controller +( Keyboard for chat)

without sub target confirm +( AOE toggle ) Controller User need to cancel current target -> choose new target -> use action -> cancel current target -> choose new target ????? it not easy to change target like mouse click

Just look at FFXI, they made two sets of spells. One for AoE and the other solo. That's so much easier to manage then messing around with toggle button and macros. Since we're on the subject of magic, get rid of spell costs to add them to your ability bar.

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Originally Posted by Chike

Game UI designed for play with only Keyboard / keyboard + mouse / Controller +( Keyboard for chat) without sub target confirm +( AOE toggle ) Controller User need to cancel current target -> choose new target -> use action -> cancel current target -> choose new target ????? it not easy to change target like mouse click

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So they're gimping down the game controls for controller users? Let them add keyboards to their consoles. They need to chat on a MMORPG so it's not that much of a stretch of an idea.

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Originally Posted by Chike

Game UI designed for play with only Keyboard / keyboard + mouse / Controller +( Keyboard for chat)

without sub target confirm +( AOE toggle ) Controller User need to cancel current target -> choose new target -> use action -> cancel current target -> choose new target ????? it not easy to change target like mouse click

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as I said, not my problem if you're using a gamepad, when the keyboard works better. (and I hardly ever use my touchpad)

At this point the issue is CLEARLY not the toggle, but rather the way commands are mapped to the gampad. Let's do the math:
Average gamepad (xbox or ps3): ~four buttons, 4 shoulders, 2 analog sticks w click function, start, select, home, = about 13 buttons.
Average keyboard: 108 keys, not counting ctrl, alt, shift, or FN (on Laptops) modes

No way in hell can you expect to map a gamepad to work better, or on par with a keyboard, and to say an entire feature must be removed to accomodate the people using a gampad is completely retarded.

There should have been separate spells for AoE to begin with. It's ridiculous that casting a spell as an AoE uses the same MP as a single target cast. It makes things unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

There should have been separate spells for AoE to begin with. It's ridiculous that casting a spell as an AoE uses the same MP as a single target cast. It makes things unbalanced.

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While this isn't quite the original point, I agree with it. If SE had thought about this balance issue, we probably wouldn't be arguing about whether or not the toggle mechanic is clunky or convenient because they would have separated out the spells.

AoE spells should definitely come at a higher MP cost, which would also force us to make careful choices instead of lolspam.

Yes, Remove it! along with the need of ENTER pressing to confirm the cast, scrap it! in other games I just press 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever to cast a spell in one button

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Originally Posted by Chike

Game UI designed for play with only Keyboard / keyboard + mouse / Controller +( Keyboard for chat)

without sub target confirm +( AOE toggle ) Controller User need to cancel current target -> choose new target -> use action -> cancel current target -> choose new target ????? it not easy to change target like mouse click

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The current development standard of multiplatform designing for controllers first and disregarding how bad it is for KB/M users is great isn't it?

Keep the current UI for Controller/PS3 users and make a new non menu based one for KB/M users. Add the option of switching between the two and done.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

While this isn't quite the original point, I agree with it. If SE had thought about this balance issue, we probably wouldn't be arguing about whether or not the toggle mechanic is clunky or convenient because they would have separated out the spells.

AoE spells should definitely come at a higher MP cost, which would also force us to make careful choices instead of lolspam.

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Got a like for the MP cost!

Hahah! Magic users can suck my-
I rather like this option tho. For gamepad gamers it's quite simple to switch AoE (Emotes/BattleRegimen button), but I give props to Rowy, because like now it is "LOOK MEH KEELZ SHYT 3 DEAD LOL HERP DERP", meaning mindlessly casting AoEs.
I know it gives a FFIV feeling, but... in a realistic way I see it as more mana-consuming than doing it on a single target.

Well, it's also true that if you do it wrong your party is Screwed just because they want things easy and aren't prepared for hard sh*t, like that time with some guys while I was like R14 Conjurer.

Renshi: "Ok, kick their asses!"
*5 seconds later...* *AoE Fire*
Partier1: "YOU MORON! You've hitted an Aldgoat!"
R: "Pff... provoke it?"
P2: "It's an aldgoat, it'll kill me instead!"
*3 fire attacks leaving it at 1/4*
R: "There ya go, finish him until P1 kills the quest monsters. I'll keep the cure."
...f*cking easy-players...

This again?

No, in my opinion AoE toggle does not need to go. Mage ability bars are cluttered enough without also having to deal with AoE versions of spells taking up space too.

The only thing I agree with in this thread is the notion that AoE spells need to cost more MP.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Stop demanding they change things that already work great when there are plenty of other things that are obviously broken and need fixing.

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This^

I swear there is no end to the amount of changes some people want in this game. If SE were to listen to every complaint and request here on the forums, this game will NEVER see an expansion pack. Just an endless amount of redesigns and patches.

If only we had a real FF interface for casting spells like XI and every other FF game before it we wouldn't be limited to the crappy action bar and thus could have a lot more spells for specific purposes with different visuals.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

This again?

No, in my opinion AoE toggle does not need to go. Mage ability bars are cluttered enough without also having to deal with AoE versions of spells taking up space too.

The only thing I agree with in this thread is the notion that AoE spells need to cost more MP.

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I'd also like it if the AOE indicator was always present onscreen for mages, and smaller so that it takes up less room. That way I can change my selection between casts instead of just before each one.

Glad I went to sleep after I replied on page 2 or whatever. Didn't miss a thing. AOE toggle is fine. It works because of the slot system, equipping 2 different versions is clunky for everyone. Not to mention with the current system you may as well just use AOE spells all the time. Then people will continually moan about THAT.

The action bar will be up all the time (I believe?) after the upcoming battle changes, so that takes one of your "precious time-wasting clicks" away.People act like one extra click is the end of their world. The sign of a bad game.

Finally, and this is not specific to this topic, but I love how people use the word "need" very casually nowadays when they really mean "want".

Edit: And re-seconding constant AOE indicator.

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Originally Posted by Shauni

After they finish with the battle system revamp why they just don't add -ga spell for aoe (like FF XI) ?
No more mistake, no more yellow mob kill, no more SP loss...

And why an aoe and a single spells cost the same MP at this time? It's make a lot of people always cast AOE.

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Because they want this game like a western MMO, not like a FF game. FFXI you could have a nice spell list with AoE and single target spells, here you can't because people will bitch it's not like x MMO and becoming FFXI-2.

I am all for the toggle of AoE. Although they should get rid of the button. I just use the Keyboard and the "Z" key to toggle between single and AoE but it would be nice, if instead of the button it showed graphicly which targets, friendly and hostile are being targeted. Something like an indicator over their heads, Arrows annimated from caster to affected parties, something.

nothing wrong with aoe toggle in my opinion, its just 1 click from on or off. perhaps they can put the aoe button somewhere else so it wont be needing to pop up each time.

AND FOR THE GOD SAKE! Please let us claim more than 1 mob (1 group on quest)

we deserve all SP and items from everything we kill, no matter how we kill it

Oh, wow! has the AoE toggle ever been useful for me. It all depends on the situation, of course, but I've had to toggle it off enough times to want it to stay. That's usually following by kicking off my macro'ed sacrifice which immediately casts the spell on me and no one else because I haven't added /aoe on to macro. >.> <.< I really need to fix that.

But I do like how you don't have to worry about the AoE toggle when kicking off macros. d(^_^)b

Not sure if someone pointed it out, but there is a button on the controller (I use the xbox 360 one) that can toggle AoE on and off. Like I said, use it often enough.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

Finally. Single player console games cannot be compared to an MMO where communication and precision is important. Turn based toggles worked wonderfully in the FF games created nearly 15-20 years ago. Welcome to 2011.

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Sorry, didn't realize we were playing a MMOFPS...

The toggle AoE is one of the few things that I believe to be innovative about this game. As mentioned before, the whole Fire (Single Target) and Fire (AoE) is unnecessary and too cumbersome. With the current game mechanic, skills cost action points in order to place them on the action bar. This is a necessary component of a game where cross class skills exist. If we were to add Spell(AoE), then mage classes would complain because they did not have enough Action point to place their skills. Then when provided enough action points by the devs, they would complain that they did not have enough abilities slot to place Spell, Spell(AoE), and other cross class skills.

You're placing the devs in a catch 22; "messed up" if they don't, "messed up" if they do. Let's not let them worry about silly things like players being too lazy to press 'z'. They have more pressing matters on their hands, like I don't know, the fact that the FATE of Final Fantasy XIV rest in their hands. I'm just saying....

AoE toggle is great. Saves a ton of macro/action bar space. The only thing I'd suggest changing is making a little 'aoe' graphic on the side to let you know if your aoe is ON or OFF outside of combat/casting spells. At least then you'd be able to plan for the need to turn it on or off before you cast the spell.

In many FF games (like FF IV) you have skills which are single target and aoe target in one. You can choose to target only one enemy or all enemies with the same skill. You don't need 2 skills only to choose between single or aoe.

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Originally Posted by Monkey

Sorry, didn't realize we were playing a MMOFPS...

The toggle AoE is one of the few things that I believe to be innovative about this game. As mentioned before, the whole Fire (Single Target) and Fire (AoE) is unnecessary and too cumbersome. With the current game mechanic, skills cost action points in order to place them on the action bar. This is a necessary component of a game where cross class skills exist. If we were to add Spell(AoE), then mage classes would complain because they did not have enough Action point to place their skills. Then when provided enough action points by the devs, they would complain that they did not have enough abilities slot to place Spell, Spell(AoE), and other cross class skills.

You're placing the devs in a catch 22; "messed up" if they don't, "messed up" if they do. Let's not let them worry about silly things like players being too lazy to press 'z'. They have more pressing matters on their hands, like I don't know, the fact that the FATE of Final Fantasy XIV rest in their hands. I'm just saying....

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All it's promoting is more bad gameplay that requires little strategy when spamming your AoE is identical to spamming your single target. You don't need to put every single element on your bars, complaining about AP cost is meaningless. I can't wait to see how mindless the raids and dungeons will be if they don't change how it works.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

All it's promoting is more bad gameplay that requires little strategy when spamming your AoE is identical to spamming your single target. You don't need to put every single element on your bars, complaining about AP cost is meaningless. I can't wait to see how mindless the raids and dungeons will be if they don't change how it works.

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You say potato, I say potato.... I guess it makes more sense when said out loud.

Any who, your post makes no sense. How does deciding whether to choose Fire(AoE) vs deciding whether to activate/deactivate AoE makes or breaks a game strategically?

The answer, it doesn't. A smart mage class player will look at each situation before deciding whether to choose to toggle AoE on/off or whether to choose Spell vs Spell(AoE). Either way a smart mage will be doing the exact same concept. Dumb mage classes will spam AoE no matter what. So lets take this whole talk of strategy out of the window.

As far as not equipping certain elements, this is the scenario I see arising

Mage 2: "Give me a few minutes"
Party Member 1: "Why"
Mage 1: "Next Group of mobs are weak against fire. last group was water so have to switch out my skills since my AoE skills is taking up my action point that my fire skills could've have been at"
Party Member 2: "ummm, ok, but didnt you just unequip your fire to put in your lightening"
Mage 1: "Exactly"

OP you've got to be kidding! You are kidding right?! This is the most rediculous request I've read yet. Just learn when you can or cannot aoe. Removing the option for aoe is a stupid idea.

I have one macro: /aoe

I click it, it goes on, I kill stuff, I click it again and it goes off.

It's not hard, and no, macro's don't bug out. I use macros for gear switching and spell switching. They work fine.

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Originally Posted by Godking

I have one macro: /aoe

I click it, it goes on, I kill stuff, I click it again and it goes off.

It's not hard, and no, macro's don't bug out. I use macros for gear switching and spell switching. They work fine.

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Since it's FFXIV everything people don't use is assumed to be buggy, aside the +1 etc issue, I've yet to have problems with macros myself.

The AOE toggle in theory was a good idea, but I also hate it and want it removed. /Agree with OP.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Since it's FFXIV everything people don't use is assumed to be buggy, aside the +1 etc issue, I've yet to have problems with macros myself.

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+1 stuff is buggy? i can macro it in just fine

The problem is the claim system. A party should get SP for the mobs they kill...

At the moment a party is PUNISHED for luring more than one mob. That's pure silliness...

SE could fix this by doing one of these:

1. Make large parties be able to claim more than one mob.

or

2. If AOE spell is targeted a red named mob, it'd ONLY hit other red named mobs and ignore others.

SE's mistake is LETTING the players be able to HIT a mob that is not red.
If SE want to keep players from claiming more than one mob, fine, but fix your AOE to not hit the other mobs.

Summery: If SE doesn't want to change the claim system, then they should MAKE it impossible to ATTACK unclaimed mobs (If one is already claimed).
There is NO point to attack an unclaimed mob as you gain NOTHING out of it. Therefore, 100% of the time an unclaimed mob is attacked is an ACCIDENT that is the main reason of player fights and kicking out of party or simply just bad gaming experience overall.

kthxbai XO

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Originally Posted by Monkey

You say potato, I say potato.... I guess it makes more sense when said out loud.

Any who, your post makes no sense. How does deciding whether to choose Fire(AoE) vs deciding whether to activate/deactivate AoE makes or breaks a game strategically?

The answer, it doesn't. A smart mage class player will look at each situation before deciding whether to choose to toggle AoE on/off or whether to choose Spell vs Spell(AoE). Either way a smart mage will be doing the exact same concept. Dumb mage classes will spam AoE no matter what. So lets take this whole talk of strategy out of the window.

As far as not equipping certain elements, this is the scenario I see arising

Mage 2: "Give me a few minutes"
Party Member 1: "Why"
Mage 1: "Next Group of mobs are weak against fire. last group was water so have to switch out my skills since my AoE skills is taking up my action point that my fire skills could've have been at"
Party Member 2: "ummm, ok, but didnt you just unequip your fire to put in your lightening"
Mage 1: "Exactly"

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What part of AoE has no penalty over single target is there to not understand? You are completely ignoring what it's doing negatively to support spells. Knowing when to use an AoE and when to not because its inefficient or undesirable is strategy that is missing entirely. It still stands that any content they want to try and release is going to be trivialized because of this alone. The only alternative is every mob being balanced around spamming AoE's as much as players can AoE heal.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

What part of AoE has no penalty over single target is there to not understand? You are completely ignoring what it's doing negatively to support spells. Knowing when to use an AoE and when to not because its inefficient or undesirable is strategy that is missing entirely. It still stands that any content they want to try and release is going to be trivialized because of this alone. The only alternative is every mob being balanced around spamming AoE's as much as players can AoE heal.

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For all the people with "AOE has no panelty" claim. Go on a leve with a party to kill 3 mobs, Cast offensive spell as AoE, and Offensive spell as single. See which person will be targeted, you or the tanker.

Yes, AOE's panelty is HATE- You gather more HATE from mobs if you use AoE.

Also, If SE decided that you get SP for ONE mob at a time, it means they do not want you to hit and SURELY not KILL more than ONE mob at a time.

So allowing you to BE ABLE to do it, is just wrong. It's bad.
Either increase Claimed mobs. Or restrict players to be able to hit claimed mobs only. SE built the claim system to prevent players from mobbing a whole area. Not so you can be "efficient" or not.

Yeah, about that AoE healing.

Nuking 3 mobs that will kill you is being bad. Think about this for a moment in a group situation, what happens after the tank has them? Free to do what you want or the AoE healing is going to carry both you and the tank along effortlessly.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Yeah, about that AoE healing.

Nuking 3 mobs that will kill you is being bad. Think about this for a moment in a group situation, what happens after the tank has them? Free to do what you want or the AoE healing is going to carry both you and the tank along effortlessly.

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Huh? my post meant for group situation (Sorry, I'll add that).

I don't know what kind of mobs you fight, but in parties I participate: If the tank does not manage hate while a Mage is spamming offensive AoE spells, the mobs will change target back to the mage and will keep doing so unless the mage decides to stop casting AoE, or just stop casting.

Also, AoE cures also gather more hate than single cures. It just used to be more noticable, But it's been nerfed cause people whined... zzzz

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

+1 stuff is buggy? i can macro it in just fine

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There used to be a problem with certain +1 items not macroing correctly, they fixed it a little while ago.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

What part of AoE has no penalty over single target is there to not understand? You are completely ignoring what it's doing negatively to support spells. Knowing when to use an AoE and when to not because its inefficient or undesirable is strategy that is missing entirely. It still stands that any content they want to try and release is going to be trivialized because of this alone. The only alternative is every mob being balanced around spamming AoE's as much as players can AoE heal.

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you want a penalty? here is the penalty: Use it at the wrong time, and you hit more enemies than you intended, resulting in every hit mob gang raping you into oblivion. That's not good enough???

I think we had like 1 instance of someone actually dying while doing all of the faction NM leves. That was someone that wasn't the tank face pulling 6 drakes which were still killed shortly afterwards. Anyways they've already stated they want to make threat management easier to see.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

you want a penalty? here is the penalty: Use it at the wrong time, and you hit more enemies than you intended, resulting in every hit mob gang raping you into oblivion. That's not good enough???

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yes, because aoe is perfect when you got a bunch of mobs that arent your target in the area :D

Okay, how about this: Let's say you're going to use your fire spell. You can press the key, click the icon, or press the button on your controller once for a single target hit. If you press that key, click that icon, or press that button a second time during the casting phase, it turns it into an AoE attack.

So a simple double click if you want AoE, single click if you want single target. And if you triple click, it reverts back to single target.

I love the AOE Toggle, is one of my favorite features in the game.

@Razzle what you said about the AoE shouldn't be able to hit non red target mobs is dumb. That is the point of AoE's, you have to be careful where you use them so you don't hit other mobs. You saying otherwise is like asking SE to hold your hand while you play a mage class.