And so begins the Vote-kick abuse

Another issue no-one has brought up:

We were in a LotA run where one of our members repeatedly MPKed the alliance at Atomos, so we vote-kicked them out. The reason they started this is because they had event gear on and we asked them to change it. All they have to do is re-queue "in progress" and they'll be able to join right away, from the alliance they've been kicked from. Subsequently tried to MPK at Thanatos and griefed on Vassago (auto-attacked bosses) so we kicked them a further two times. They came back again and again.

What I didn't understand is why one of our members defended them, telling us to "have fun and lighten up", then proceeded to GM us all after the run for vote-kick abuse. Why the hell do people vote-kicked from an alliance not suffer the lock-out penalty? That's a no-brainer to me...

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

Another abuse of the vote kick system I have seen is that players who think they are exceptional and shouldn't be in a group that fails once ask the group to be kicked so they get around the DF lockout for leaving the instance. I for once never vote them out and love when they get mad about it lol.

For me it is just no reason. U wanna leave because you feel superior to the group and can't be arsed to be in a group with lesser experience that needs several attempts? Don't do DF roulette but use the Party finder. But don't expect to be able to disband the group without getting any penalties like it is the most normal thing in the World.

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Last time i did that, I got kicked xD

Why don't they just let ppl know who started the vote kick and which server that person on.

Everyone's details get know by everyone including that person been voted against.

Right now its so annon, and there is no way anyone can defend themselves.

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

Why don't they just let ppl know who started the vote kick and which server that person on.

Everyone's details get know by everyone including that person been voted against.

Right now its so annon, and there is no way anyone can defend themselves.

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If I ever decide to go back to using DF I will just take a screenshot of the whole group and report the whole dam lot,unless they voice there disagreement,but then again the person who started the kick could be one of the players disagreeing with it,so they don't get reported for abuse..so you could just end up reporting players who didn't do anything which is harsh and unfair so whats the point in reporting unless it's 100% in favor of kicking..ie 3/4 in groups or 7/8 in raids and so on

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Originally Posted by Xayoc

Observation: No where is it mentioned that vote kicking for poor performance is against the rules.

Statement: Thank you Hvinire for the clarification.

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Observation: no where does is it mentioned that vote kicking for playing a PS3 is against the rules.

(...or being a Lolly or wearing a funny hat or being the wrong class of healer or being a melee class or ...)

Yeah the other day my sister queued for CT, got into a group including several people form an FC on a different server. They kicked her before a specific boss died just so their bards are guarenteed the bard loot that drops.

My sister didn't even need the bard gear from there either, because her entire gearset is almost all ilvl90. This kind of abuse disgusts me and something needs to be done about people like that.

You know what's GREAT about the new vote kick system?

If you enter a dungeon via roulette, and it happens to be one you dislike, you can just go AFK; eventually someone will vote kick you for being AFK. Usually takes about 5-10 minutes, but it does happen. OR someone will leave before you and then you can leave safely.

The benefits to this is that you do not get the penalty for leaving a dungeon early. So basically SE shot themselves in the foot again. They wanted to implement a system that stopped people from leaving dungeons early and removed unwanted players from a group.

Wherein they have presented more beneficial options for the players who want to leave dungeons early by just going AFK and getting vote kicked.

Old system: 15 minute penalty for leaving early

New system: 30 minute penalty for leaving early, BUT will only be 5-10 minute penalty if vote kicked for being AFK, or if someone leaves early.

Thanks SE for giving people who abuse systems like these more tools at their disposal.

I have a motto in life as do many others before me: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

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Originally Posted by Pure-Wasabi

Old system: 15 minute penalty for leaving early

New system: 30 minute penalty for leaving early, BUT will only be 5-10 minute penalty if vote kicked for being AFK, or if someone leaves early.

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I've already seen people just asking to be kicked to avoid their timeout. What's the GM's stance on that?

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

We were in a LotA run where one of our members repeatedly MPKed the alliance at Atomos, so we vote-kicked them out. The reason they started this is because they had event gear on and we asked them to change it. All they have to do is re-queue "in progress" and they'll be able to join right away, from the alliance they've been kicked from. Subsequently tried to MPK at Thanatos and griefed on Vassago (auto-attacked bosses) so we kicked them a further two times. They came back again and again.

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[Devil's advocate]: Apart from deliberate MPK, what you describe doesn't fit the 'kick' criteria. If his gear is good enough to pass the ilevel requirement (i90 accessories and i90 weapon means you can go in naked) then you shouldn't kick him based on wearing event gear, it's past the level SE decided is required. If he's only auto-attacking, it's not harassment as such; that argument could be extended to 'anyone not doing the best rotation is harassing me'.

Player performance and Player Gear are not one of the four options for kicking someone. Saying that their gear or perfomance amounts to harassment is not gonna get you anywhere with a GM.

[/devil's advocate]

Each days ago, someone kick me from a main scenario duty because my pc after some CS take like 20 sec to load, and say me "we cant wait 20 sec for a healer (i was healer in that moment)" after that i was kicked. Before told me that i need to buy a better pc. What do you think about that?. I report but honestly I doubt that SE has done something against him.

I think the person who is getting kicked should have a pop up message. The message should indicate who started the vote and a box saying do you think the decision was wrong yes or no. If yes it should open up a report form to a gm if no it close the message. At the bottom of the message it should state if found to be abusing this you could be suspended or banned.

Also on the message it should indicate the people that voted kick too.

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Originally Posted by Avorniel

For me the vote kick system is the worst thought out part in this game ,for me it's not loot like the op but more to do cut scenes. I have 2 level 50 characters and neither of them have actually seen the last 3 main cut scenses not just the story as I know you can view that at your inn room, but the fighting parts first of it just caused a major row with half the raid this was before the vote kick was introduced and the rest kept silent and the last time last week I was threatened with being vote kicked by 5 out of the 8 as there was 3 of us wanting to see the cut scenes. so what choice did I/we have,I had already been queuing for close to 2 hours....as the fc I am in there are not many online at once and not the needed classes either.
...

For me now I am on the verge of just not renewing my sub after April (6 month sub) as I will not be threatened,bullied due to trying to actually enjoy the game...

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Similar incident happened to me just before I decided to unsub from this game (it wasn't the reason I decided to unsub though). Saw a random call for help for the final story mission from someone whose been in queue for awhile, and I offered to form a 2 man party with them on my Paladin to make the queue time shorter. As I was talking with this player, he wanted to enjoy the final story and cutscene as well, so I told him not to worry, I'll be sure to wait on him when we do the run.

After a short waiting time we got into a duty, and the group we got in with were demanding a speed run (who seriously speed run PR nowadays was what I was thinking). I refused to participate, and whenever the player I was helping was in a cutscene, I would stand around and wait while the rest of them ran off ahead. Needless to say, name calling and general internet douchery occurred, and eventually they kicked me from the party since I was the vocal one standing up against them as they kept whining for their speed run. The other guy did stay in the run and completed it though, so I was satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Thank you for your input on the vote dismiss feature. The dev. team is currently discussing countermeasures against potential misuses of the system.

Additionally, as stated in the 2.1 patch notes, any abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered harassment. We ask that users submit a GM report should you come across any situation where the vote dismiss feature is being misused.

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There doesn't need to be any discussion on countermeasures... Look at any other game with a -working- vote-kick system and copy the contingencies that they have.

Rule of thumb though...
1. No kick until someone's been in a dungeon for 10min (to avoid snap kicks on job/ilvl)
2. No kicking unless there's a 75% consensus (to ensure the majority of the group finds your presence a problem)
3. No kicking during combat, or for ~2min after combat (to avoid kicks between boss kill and loot distribution)
4. No kicking during loot distribution phase (to avoid people getting ninja'd out of loot)
5. No kicking during, or for ~5min after a character leaves cut scene (to avoid kicks in result of someone actually watching the game scenes)
6. No group can attempt a vote kick on a single person more than once every 10min (to avoid constant spam of the feature)

These are not difficult concepts...

Edit: and honestly, yes.. poor performance -should- be a viable reason for being kicked from the group. If you are in a dungeon, and a member of the group just auto-attacks and does no sizable damage in the run, or the tank continually loses aggro and gets the team killed, or the healer is never able to keep the tank up; You should be able to remove the problem party member because one person is wasting the time of everyone involved. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a professional, i'm certainly not, but there are players who don't know a single thing about how to play their class and just waste the time of 3 or 7 other people by causing wipes throughout the dungeon.

Sure, people might be a little upset that they were kicked for not doing the job they were brought in to do, but as long as you follow those five rules (that all other vote-kick systems follow) and the additional cut scene rule (Which really is XIV specific since they handled their cut scenes in the stupidest way possible), the amount of abuse will be negligible.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

[Devil's advocate]: Apart from deliberate MPK, what you describe doesn't fit the 'kick' criteria. If his gear is good enough to pass the ilevel requirement (i90 accessories and i90 weapon means you can go in naked) then you shouldn't kick him based on wearing event gear, it's past the level SE decided is required. If he's only auto-attacking, it's not harassment as such; that argument could be extended to 'anyone not doing the best rotation is harassing me'.

Player performance and Player Gear are not one of the four options for kicking someone. Saying that their gear or perfomance amounts to harassment is not gonna get you anywhere with a GM.

[/devil's advocate]

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Only issue with that is you can queue up with all your fancy gear, but once you get into the run you can change into whatever you want and drop below the gear requirements..

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Originally Posted by Aegis

[Devil's advocate]: Apart from deliberate MPK, what you describe doesn't fit the 'kick' criteria. If his gear is good enough to pass the ilevel requirement (i90 accessories and i90 weapon means you can go in naked) then you shouldn't kick him based on wearing event gear, it's past the level SE decided is required. If he's only auto-attacking, it's not harassment as such; that argument could be extended to 'anyone not doing the best rotation is harassing me'.

Player performance and Player Gear are not one of the four options for kicking someone. Saying that their gear or perfomance amounts to harassment is not gonna get you anywhere with a GM.

[/devil's advocate]

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Except for intentionally wasting the time of other players(time being the only non-renewable resource in life) is harrasement. Going in in a Zenith relic and level 1 crafting gear is circumventing game mechanics(the ilvl block) and is harrassing the other players. Deal with it.

Funny story:

Last night I was doing Duty Roulette Pharos (ugh) and we had a healer (a scholar) who was horrible and we spent 35 minutes wiping on Siren. Well our tank just leaves so luckily I have my FC mate duty Q and he gets in to tank. Well the healer, still being a bad, complains were not killing adds all the while hes running into seargents and what not because hey, hes invincible right? (never once cast succor and said something about not being able to get more Lustrates (Doesn't know about aetherflow?))

Anyways... All this time I really wanted to vote kick him but I didn't.... know why? There is no option for kicking a BAD PLAYER!!!!! This frustrated me but I wasn't going to bail on the last boss and lose my tome bonus. Nope.

So anyways, with 15 mins left on the duty timer, he DCs!!! So now I can kick for offline, which we do and I have another FC mate queue up as healer and we one shot Siren (we got lucky with these random q's.

Moral of the story - Square needs to add a bad player option to vote kick... (just kidding!) The reality is that I faced 40 minutes of wiping on Siren because I wanted to be nice.

They should've made it so you can't kick people doing loot rolls.

Same crap that started happening in WoW and which make me extremely wary of joining any group that consisted of players from the same guild. Wasn't uncommon to get kicked as the final boss was about to die or just before it so that a party member was guaranteed the loot or alternatively they could invite a friend.

It would be helpful if you could see FC tags while in instances/raids.

Can't see where his original post was but:

" Quote Originally Posted by Edenholt View Post
I wonder how many times such thing happens in the JP community. Not saying they're better than us, but we westerns know how to be 5-star douches."

Did you play FFXI? In the early years there were JP groups that camped mobs they needed NOTHING from, solely to prevent NA people from getting the loot. And *we're* douches?

How about do it like in WoW?

When engaged in combat or when an item is being rolled, you cannot vote kick.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Can't see where his original post was but:

" Quote Originally Posted by Edenholt View Post
I wonder how many times such thing happens in the JP community. Not saying they're better than us, but we westerns know how to be 5-star douches."

Did you play FFXI? In the early years there were JP groups that camped mobs they needed NOTHING from, solely to prevent NA people from getting the loot. And *we're* douches?

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They are horrible to NA/EU players, I agree, but they are very nice and polite to their fellow JP.

Us on the other hand can be extremely horrible to each other.

It's not only kick some player to get loot.
JP community use it to expel EN players from duty finder.
Also they use it as a tool to give up on the battle by kicking someone.

If I play as tank it's no problem at all. but for DPS, waiting for df queue is crazy long and when got in, say hi to them, and then they kick... this is really misuse of the kick system.

I think dev should considering remove this system from the game ( also with afk kick ) so people will try their best for something before they can give up easily.
I think this kind of harassment via vote kick is worst than AFKer.

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Originally Posted by amnie

ugh. it's still amazing me through what length player in this game go just to be f'ckt'rds.

first people go afk, then people pull while others are in cutscenes, then they invite to a different coil turn than they advertised just to lock people out on purpose, and now they kick for loot... what is wrong with people? are they really .that. greedy? (well, they obviously are)

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They are not Final Fantasy fans, that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Petdo

It's not only kick some player to get loot.
JP community use it to expel EN players from duty finder.
Also they use it as a tool to give up on the battle by kicking someone.

If I play as tank it's no problem at all. but for DPS, waiting for df queue is crazy long and when got in, say hi to them, and then they kick... this is really misuse of the kick system.

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In the Japanese dungeon forums there's actually a thread discussing this very thing. It's in Japanese but if you can read it there's good insight to what it's like in their shoes.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...95%8F%E9%A1%8C

A lot of them are actually surprisingly understanding to why people queue with J ticked.

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Originally Posted by Grym

They are horrible to NA/EU players, I agree, but they are very nice and polite to their fellow JP.

Us on the other hand can be extremely horrible to each other.

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Well I don't think all of them are bad or even most. Some of my best parties in FFXI were all JP and I don't know a word of japaense, but if they really hated me because I was NA I doubt I would have stayed in parties with them for 5-6 hours at a time. Even made a couple of japanse friends that spoke english in FFXI.

Yeah im not sure why maybe someone can explain on that fight where range stays on the platforms (CT) and adds spawn. The MT who was fully decked out was tanking adds, and me the almost fresh 50 was slapping that ugly thing. He vote kicked me because I wasn't helping him with adds...' Im not sure if its my fault or what but I never had a problem soloing that.

An issue I have personally encountered more than once is entering an instance and meeting a premade group who needed either 1 or 2 more players and so entered the Duty Finder. Some of these groups are very elitist and will instantly insult you on a single mistake (which can happen to anyone, and of course if they make a mistake it's 'lag' or somehow my fault) - and kick you. If they want a specific job for something - they'll kick you. If they want to leave, they'll kick you, then leave themselves to avoid penalty.

Today, I entered Ultima HM, and came across a premade group who looked like they only needed 1 healer. I died because although I thought I was outside of a Weight of the Land, part of my character's hit box must have been inside it. I made a mistake, my primary focus was healing the tank, so I moved as little as I could to avoid downtime. I apologized, but was promptly insulted and voted out.. They kicked me, because I didn't perform to their standards. An additional reason was even stated by their leader that 'we need a WHM, not another SCH'. A point I should add is that although some of them took unnecessary damage (a DRG in particular), I did not complain or even think to insult them, mistakes happen, I get over it quickly.

I've also been vote kicked for standing up to another premade group for insulting someone for making a mistake in CT.

I have never experienced a vote being initiated when there has not been a premade group (except for offline players, it happens).

Needs to be changed so that a group of 3 or more cannot vote kick. The percentage to kick should also be increased slightly too.

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Originally Posted by Hekmatyar-Koko

*Sad but true stuff*

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Frankly - I'd rather get kicked than play with such elitist morons ;) I play mainly as WHM and while I'm far from being perfect or uber-geared I consider myself fairly decent to cope and keep up with the majority of the groups and dungeons. I was vote kicked 3 times so far, each time - exactly as in your experience - it was clearly pre-made group unhappy with "under-performing" outsider. While it did upset me a little at first I've got over it and next two times I just took it as the (bad) part of the DF. I do though agree that it should be fixed to prevent missuse of the feature for loots and so on.

In 1.0 i had a friend who was japanese but living in the usa, he told me the most japanese players don't have a problem with "non-jp" players but with NA players especially.
For my part, i don't understand all that racism... I am from germany, most people were hating germans for talking german in chats in the very beginning of 2.0, now everyone seems to be hating the french players and calling french players = bad players. What's next? NA = bad players? Or maybe Blonde females = bad players?

There is no reason to kick someone because of his nation.

Especially to the main topic i have to say, i'm shocked about all that abusing, gladly I never experienced to be kicked for loot etc. myself. I just got threaten to be kicked by a french player in sastasha (yes right, sastasha) for not being french/not understanding him.

Crazy gaming....

Well - on my server the French players were harrased from day one of the beta stage 4. Almost anyone on Balmug knows or at least heard of the harrasment of the girl playing on PS3 because - well she was a girl playing on PS3 - etc. etc. - morons are everywhere and not easy to avoid if you're using DF or PF to progress in party content.

I think there should be a cooldown if you perform a vote kick, like you can only perform a vote kick once every 4 hours.

I got kicked out for the first time this weekend during a Stone Vigal run. After clearing the dungeon rooms we were running up to the last arena when I got an error 90000. I got back in a few seconds later and the other 3 players were standing at the edge of the arena. I started running towards them then got the message that I have been dismissed from the party! WTF?! I was not even offline for 30 seconds.

I was in a party that actually refused to kick someone.

Started up Crystal Tower, the other tank did not want to run with our 2 whm party. Said he and whm didn't get along, and wanted us to kick him. We did not kick, and instead dragged him through the entire CT kicking and screaming. The 2nd whm left after rolling loot on the second boss, and we got a sch as replacement, but the tank still refused to play, so I solo'd everything for our group lol.

He did finally get kicked before final boss, so he didn't get myth. Cold-hearted? Maybe. Shoulda just dropped if he didn't want to participate.

Some people have said don't allow kicks during combat... wouldn't you be able to avoid being kicked by just randomly aggroing then? I think no kicks during loot rolls seems like a better idea.

all the people who voted yes in this particular case should be perma banned

I see tanks asking to be dismissed so that they can jump back into duty finder instantly. I try to report as cheating rather than afk if i can. Its annoying how long i had to wait to get into que and they can quit and get no penalty. Then again they could just bully you into leaving by pulling the boss on you over and over.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

I see tanks asking to be dismissed so that they can jump back into duty finder instantly. I try to report as cheating rather than afk if i can. Its annoying how long i had to wait to get into que and they can quit and get no penalty. Then again they could just bully you into leaving by pulling the boss on you over and over.

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Actually, yea, at least he didn't troll us/alliance. Just refused to do anything. I believe some of the other members filed a harrassment complaint, because he definitely was not nice or cordial about it. But yea, at least he wasn't trolling lol

For the loot issue, sure- allow a player to be booted during loot. After all, that player maybe a flaming and threatening everyone to pass so they can get the drop they want and you shouldn't have to wait five minutes to be rid of him. However- don't kick them FROM the loot. I've received loot drops from a dungeon pool after leaving because someone stayed behind longer before they voted. Just take out the -remove from loot pool- flag that was added for kicking.

I don't see why people are this short sighted anyway. Servers aren't _massive_. I run into plenty of people multiple times and I recall their conduct and ability. I'll drop a party with a massive derp as Healer if I remember them being bad in the past. If seven people kick you from a dungeon because they wanted that loot for their friend that's a quick way to a free company and 6 link-shell's black lists.

Tell your friends about ass-hats and make them notorious for being said ass-hats.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

Sure because people on the internet are one of the most trustworthy. If a group really wants an item and they would have been fine with kicking you if you rolled 90 or whatever number. Do you really think they would take the chances?

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Which is exactly what begs the question, of why do developers still continue to make these games where people need to share loot-able items and/or that they never produce enough to pass around?
Developers refuse to budge on these archaic RNG loot systems attached to worn out stat and item equipping mechanics.

If it's a piece of armor/weapon etc, then it should only be use-able by one job. If it's a quest item, craft item, upgrade piece or miscellaneous then everyone should get one.
Build the game AROUND that solution, and then these issues won't appear.

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Originally Posted by Ranebow

Which is exactly what begs the question, of why do developers still continue to make these games where people need to share loot-able items and/or that they never produce enough to pass around?
Developers refuse to budge on these archaic RNG loot systems attached to worn out stat and item equipping mechanics.

If it's a piece of armor/weapon etc, then it should only be use-able by one job. If it's a quest item, craft item, upgrade piece or miscellaneous then everyone should get one.
Build the game AROUND that solution, and then these issues won't appear.

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I don't understand whether you are implying that if the item is for a PLD/WAR, then only PLD/WAR get to roll? This is why we have the Need/Greed/Pass. So that those than NEED it have priority. This game is designed so that one character can level EVERY class, so why would they lock out loot to any other classes? I have DPS and a Healer, yet I will run instances as a Tank, not only to greed on some loot, but to help others get through it.

Also, with the complete elitism of a vast majority of those who do the higher end-game instances, it is hard to get into a group with being well geared, and it is hard to gear an alternative character without entering these instances to get the gear (as most use myth tomes on their main classes).

The issue here is vote kicking to receive loot. Which is just 100% wrong. Someone does the instance the whole way through, and then get's shafted by a group because their player also wants the loot. That's just wrong. Everyone pays the same to play this game, and should get equal rights.

Again, groups over 50% of the instance should not be allowed to vote, and a vote of over 50% should also be required, easy fix.

Also, this post was 1.5x larger than the limit? Seriously, the limits here are rediculous...

No kicking while loot is still roll-able seems like something SE should have known better than to not implement. I swear those guys love making drama more than forum posters.