Coil lock outs, myth tome caps, and the armory + job system.

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Originally Posted by Sapphires

You dont need alts, but you need to deal with the fact the designers time-gate your progression on 1 character.

If you want to do something besides complain for 6 days a week after capping coil+mythology on 1 character on monday, then consider making an alt. Theres very little worthwhile crossover in leveling healer and melee+ranged dps on 1 character.

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So instead of leveling another job on my current character (as intended and encouraged by the devs themselves), I should spend the same man hours leveling it on another character and bypass every progression block the devs intended. Do you not see how this completely negates and contradicts the basis of the Armoury System? SE has designed their endgame like other single class MMOs which just runs against the flow of their own game.

Just give each job a it's own cap. You'll have your hardcore players that will no-life full Myth for all jobs in 5 months, average players that will do 2-3, and those players that only care about single job specialization. It's up to SE to slow us down by giving us lots of things to do and not release content out of order (BC before CT for example). You can casually cap out within the first 2-3 days after a reset leaving you with not much else to do if you're already capped on the classes you even care to level.

After clearing turn 1 - > 4 in 1 hour last night I am not unable to experience this content again for a week, I can't even think about enjoying it on my monk, WHM, or any other class I want to level, and the content only takes one hour to clear for my group now.

Please allow us to do this content as much as we want without any reward, I just want to play.

Please do something about this in 2.1, please don't ignore this issue until it's too late.

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Originally Posted by firepixiedarien

I'm sorry, but each person can only see one loot window a week per the suggestion.
Not healthy for the game? lol And me as a tank being unable to help another good friend of mine from a different FC even though I get NO REWARD for doing so is healthy too, right?

These so-called carries of yours, you won't play with them? Since you have already found your own lil tight group to do it with, so whatever I do is none of your business.

Plus, my LS has an extreme amount of tanks, but only 3 heals and 7 deeps! So it's cool that all those tanks and 1 heals sit on the side eh? That's healthy for the game too huh?

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Exactly, each person can only see one loot window a week.

So you have 8 people run the instance normally, they see their 6 loot windows for the 3 loot bosses.

Then you sub 1 tank out, and run the instance again. The new tank sees 6 loot windows for the 3 loot bosses. Sub out another tank and run the instance again. The new tank sees 6 loot windows for the 3 loot bosses. Sub out that tank for a new one, they get 6 pieces of loot from the 3 loot bosses. Keep doing this until everyone has run it.

So instead of, you know, running 2 groups through coil for 12 loot drops, you get 6 for the first 8, and 6 for every additional person beyond that. How do you not see how broken that would be. The behavior it would encourage would be HORRIBLE.

a really simple fix is that the lock out is depend on the job not the char itself. Fix that, and everything will be solved.

I missed a coil run with my usual people this week so I'm stuck puging turn 4. This is worse than trying to find a exp party in XI on warrior in 2002

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Originally Posted by Cichy

I missed a coil run with my usual people this week so I'm stuck puging turn 4. This is worse than trying to find a exp party in XI on warrior in 2002

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Yeah, apparently LOTS of japanese are complaining about the fact if you don't already have a coil group you're never finding one that's competent because all the good players already found their static. It's horrific MMO design that you can't help your friends with content, this is a social game, why are you making it anti-social by forcing me to neglect my friends in need of help?

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I don't really agree with what you're saying, but if that's a problem I have the solutionL

If you miss out on a week of capping your tomes for a level 50 job, the week "rolls" over onto the next week and your cap is now 600 instead of 300, capping at 2,100(or some other number). This will make you feel less rushed to cap every job you have every week.

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Any more than 300 myth cap = people overgearing the content way too quickly, which just makes the game like WoW (i.e. shit).

Also if you think it's alt 'unfriendly', just make another character if it's such a big deal. You aren't able to do multiple raids on the same char in other MMOs, so I don't see the big deal. Though I'm sure enough baddies/casuals will QQ to the point of this kind of shit happening in the future, fun times. Let's fix what we have first (re: turn 5 and other broken stuff), and then we can discuss "adding" stuff like this.

EDIT: Maybe if you are able to do a "role" each week, have seperate myth caps for each of them or something. I don't agree with your potential implementation though.

I also have to agree that currency caps should be separate for individual jobs. I personally don't have a problem with the 300 myth cap but I definitely have no real desire to level another battle class until my sch and smn are both geared up because I don't want to share the myth with another class yet. I'd also like to stipulate that sch and smn should be separate for this as well as we're kind of already getting the shaft by having to share bonus attributes between the 2 jobs, essentially gimping one of them and pushing us towards the other.

Please show your support!

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Please show your support!

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I agree that they did not take alternative classes into account with a lot of end-game material, but to raise everything for the few of us that do run multiple classes, is retarded... I'll have three classes soon with Relic, full DL, and a couple allagan pieces, and ALTHOUGH it is annoying that it takes time... if it didn't, I would have quit by now. What's the point of playing a game when I could gear up 4-5 characters in one week?.... NONE.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

So instead of, you know, running 2 groups through coil for 12 loot drops, you get 6 for the first 8, and 6 for every additional person beyond that. How do you not see how broken that would be. The behavior it would encourage would be HORRIBLE.

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So the fact that friends can't help another friend deeps/tank/heal the hardest content in the game because they already ran it for the week, isn't considered "HORRIBLE"?

Plus, how other people behave in their own little groups is none of your concern, because if this was implemented, it for darn sure would not affect you at all Hachiko. Why? Because you already have your own tight little group that gets crap done. This is a non-issue for you. Your group chews through Turn 4 of Coil like it was soggy tissue paper, why worry about my group?

I would have to agree with a lot the op has said, sadly after playing FFXI for years, i have seen how SE run their mmos and i am sure others have too.

For them it isn't really too much about what their customers say or how their competitors work but more of an, our way or the highway motto.

Considering it takes for example 50 or so runs of CM to get full DL and that doesn't even include the 900 tomes you need for your relic.
Then factor in the other 10-20 runs to get some mats if you are crafting items.. Now it's added up to 59-80 runs of CM.

Anyone in their right mind would get bored doing that. Of course you DON'T have to get full DL a few big pieces of DL and then some myth gear should be enough to get you started on BC.

None the less that is just an example.

I am on OPs' side with regards to all he mentioned and certainly can only hope SE reads or accepts some solid feedback as the op mentions.

Have a nice day.

I think they should allow us to make more than one character.

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I think there should be more dungeons than CM.

A live letter was just aired via twitch and we received no information on coil lock outs/time gated tomes being changed to encourage multiple jobs on a single character.
; ;

This thread need to be bumped. It's outrageous that we can only "focus" on one job with these restrictions.... Compared to FFXI - especially the Abyssea edition where you practically have no limit to complete all the AF+3 gears of all your classes. It should be done like the way philospohy tomes, cap it at 2000 per week.

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Originally Posted by Trasias

I agree that they did not take alternative classes into account with a lot of end-game material, but to raise everything for the few of us that do run multiple classes, is retarded... I'll have three classes soon with Relic, full DL, and a couple allagan pieces, and ALTHOUGH it is annoying that it takes time... if it didn't, I would have quit by now. What's the point of playing a game when I could gear up 4-5 characters in one week?.... NONE.

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^ This, what incentive to keep playing past the 2 weeks it would take you to gear up multiple classes? The system is fine, it takes time yes, but thats life.

Please support so SE takes notice of this problem for the next live letter!

Did it ever occur to some of you that the game is not meant to be finished in 3 months? This is not WoW. Having one character with one name encourages better manners. The gear was throttled I'm sure to keep people from racing to the point where they have nothing to do and get their elitist e-peens lording their gear over more casual players.

Would really love to try out my monk in coil, but can't with how the system works right now.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Would really love to try out my monk in coil, but can't with how the system works right now.

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Well you know your weekly reset happens soon you can do it then.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

Well you know your weekly reset happens soon you can do it then.

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And just be a burden on the whole raid? Sounds fun. I have the same problem as Warrior.

Alright, we'll break down the OP for better understanding.

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A raid you can only clear once per week, over the past decade this has become standard in numerous other MMO's, a challenging raid where you have 1 week to clear it all before your progress is reset to zero.

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Well the first issue she answered right there. In MMOs, you complete a raid, you wait till next week before running it again for loot. It's how it's always been and how it will continue to be. In Coil, there are 6 chests (from what I've been reading there are 6 chests. correct me if I'm wrong and there are more). Once you loot them you wait till next week to loot them again. Its to keep people from exploiting the system and sitting around in Mor Dhona with every job in i90 2 months before the next patch complaining about nothing to do.

This would happen because in an ideal world where people are kind, considerate, respectful, etc. a group would go in solely for the class in specific that they are trying to gear an leave everything else to those who need it. However, this is not an ideal world and a person thinks about what they need first and foremost. In a given week with the same people running a group, that'd be 54 chests of gear a week that everyone is going to go after to not only gear up the class they're running on, but all there other jobs too.

In a large FC, that'd be 54 chests per 8 people. Someone said that they were handing out i90 drg pieces to drgs because they had too many. That would lead one to believe that a large fc would have multiple groups running to get gear that could be handed to players in different running teams. So many ways to exploit Coil if the lockout was on a per job basis instead of per character.

It takes time for content to be made, and the lockouts make sure that there's a limit to how much progress on a character you can make before the next patch. If the lockouts were on per-job basis, you can bet there'd be people in full i90s on most if not all jobs by now complaining that they've there's absolutely no more progress to be had because all their jobs are maxed on gear, they've gotten past whatever the post-coil quests are (the waking sands quests for after turn 5), and it'd be a big disaster in the long run.

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This does not even factor in the fact that I am completely unable to even experience the content on more than one job per turn per week.

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Now this is something that COULD be changed, as there is something similar in WoW. There, you can go through the instance entrance, and start fighting. Your progress will be saved and anyone joining you in a group will be saved to your progress too. Once you complete the dungeon, you can no longer enter. With their LFR, you can queue as many times as you want, though you can only loot once. A system similar to this would fix this up probably.

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Now let's talk about the mythology tome caps! In numerous other MMO's, there has been two forms of "tokens", one from normal 50 dungeons/heroic 50 dungeons and one from raids.

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There are 2 types of tokens. Philos and Mythos. Philos have no cap and mythos have a low cap to keep everyone from gearing up in full myth gear in 2 weeks. Again, in order to keep exploiting to a minimum, a set low cap is in place right now to keep players from blowing through all the content while SE works to get all their patch content finalized, make sure that everything is working properly, and a bunch of other things. It all goes back to the mentality of today's generation where they want everything fast and now. If you can't bear to put the time into the game to get the gear, then maybe it just isn't for you.

As for other games, usually ALL tokens are capped, and prices of items are priced accordingly to match the limits. In WoW, your justice and valor are capped. Gear for both is priced to counter the weekly caps just like how Myth is. The main difference is that they have multiple different methods of getting epics so valor farming isn't a necessity. They can do that because they are MUCH further along.

Their raid tokens were a counter for the RNG and were capped at 3 per week. Only recently have they implemented a way to get more epics and raid tokens. But again, they are so much further along than XIV and have so much more content in their game that they can do that. If you can't give XIV time to develop first than maybe you shouldn't be here.

For the solutions in that post:

1. The proposed solution would work as long as the loot lockout is per character, not per job. per character prevents major exploitation. However, letting people run it as much as they want would be fine as long as it only benefits them the first run.

2. No. And I say no because of the major exploitation of the 3rd suggestion.

3. We'll start with the bad relic+1 idea. With your proposed solution, one could accumulate 2700 tomes a week. the +1 items cost 900 per relic. That'd be 3 completed relics per week. In 3 weeks a character could have every relic weapon for every job completely maxed out. SE said patches would take about 3 months. Months are usually 3-4 weeks. That's anywhere from a minimum of 9 weeks to a max of 12. With your proposed solution. That's 6-9 weeks of sitting there twiddling our thumbs because you couldn't stand the single tome grind. The same goes for picking up gear using multiple tomes. It'd be exploited to pick up gear so fast that that'd people would get pissed that they cleared everything so quickly and that they have to sit with absolutely nothing to do until the next patch comes. If this system was implemented, there'd be no reason to the future patches of 2.x because your system would allow everyone to be geared in full i90 everything before 2.1 even hit.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

And just be a burden on the whole raid? Sounds fun. I have the same problem as Warrior.

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Yeah, I'd have to play my monk in inferior gear to my SCH and someone would have to come SCH in inferior gear to their <insert job here>.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Yeah, I'd have to play my monk in inferior gear to my SCH and someone would have to come SCH in inferior gear to their <insert job here>.

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Not to disagree with your entire premise, but I'm pretty sure your SCH didn't start Coil in ilvl 90 gear. While DL is inferior gear, it's satisfactory.

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Originally Posted by Iskander

Its to keep people from exploiting the system and sitting around in Mor Dhona with every job in i90 2 months before the next patch complaining about nothing to do.

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"Its to keep people from ... complaining about nothing to do."

People are complaining about nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by Tigerclaw

I think they should allow us to make more than one character.

and

I think there should be more dungeons than CM.

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You can by spending a couple of dollars more per month

And

There is, CM is the worst dungeon to farm now out of WP/AK/Prae/CM.

I was being sarcastic lol... And extra characters are free now, right?

2 mythology resets have passed since the OP, you didnt start on that 2nd character yet did you?

You can solo+pug your way through the storyline+dungeons and hit 50 in a couple days. Its so stupidly easy the 2nd time around.

Even when being overzealous with teleport fees to get through the storyline faster youll make 150-200k on that character by the time you are done just from quest rewards+allagan moneypieces.

2nd character gets it own 300 myth a week to be better geared with+wont be a lootwhore and greed rolling for mult jobs.
Having 2nd character means you have another one to help 7 additional fc mates to help through coil and it only ever needs loot for that 1 job.

Alot of people cap mythology on monday and then do turn 1-4 and are 'done' or 'bored' by tuesday, use the rest of the week on a 2nd focused character.

If you really like 2 jobs and you want the best for them and want to avoid coil and myth time gating, you should seriously consider having a 2nd character.

Agree with this completely.

Appreciate all the support, keep it up!

Only thing here I get on board with is the Class/Tome restriction. Tomes for each class is a good idea.

The game isn't meant to be completed in a month, its a MMO.
You are technically experiencing the content, issue is, at what benefit? Yours.
Coil: Is it fun? Yes, would I do it again after I beat it for the week for no reward? Without a static FC group, probably not.

If you're going to suggest the no-loot Coil, you'd better be prepared to not want to do Coil because, it's back to what you said, "I can't gear my classes." Now you'll crossroad yourself do I go in as MNK this week or do I go in as X this week? Now you'll be fighting even more odds than consistently trying to make a single class your endgame class. If you juggle between classes you slow the progression of your endgame gear anyways.

Does the system support the class system? No.
Does the system support choosing a class you know you'll like playing consistently for your career? Yes.

Trade-Offs.

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Originally Posted by tnkw

a really simple fix is that the lock out is depend on the job not the char itself. Fix that, and everything will be solved.

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IMO this is the best fix they could do. Leave the myth cap where it is, and just make the Coil lockout based on your job, not your character. It has the least opportunity for abuse, imo, as it still requires some effort for you to gear up multiple jobs. It wouldn't be nearly as abuseable as the OP's suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

IMO this is the best fix they could do. Leave the myth cap where it is, and just make the Coil lockout based on your job, not your character. It has the least opportunity for abuse, imo, as it still requires some effort for you to gear up multiple jobs. It wouldn't be nearly as abuseable as the OP's suggestion.

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I see this being abused too though. If it is per job you could easily have your group pass and let the Main tank of your main party setup get all tank gear. That way, the following week, you would have a tank decked in tank gear, because it was tunneled to them. Essentially, it give a workaround for the lockout completely, assuming you have enough people with all 9 jobs, and a party setup for each of the nine jobs. Of course getting to the point where everyone has the gear to run 8-9 jobs into coil is another thing, but not impossible.

You're right. It's a step backwards from other MMOs. It's a massive shame too as I liked the idea of having all classes on one character. In SWTOR for example I had 11 level 50s and I absolutely adored playing around with all the classes. While I do have 3 characters with full DL, knowing that I can only gear out 1 is so disheartening.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

You're right. It's a step backwards from other MMOs. It's a massive shame too as I liked the idea of having all classes on one character. In SWTOR for example I had 11 level 50s and I absolutely adored playing around with all the classes. While I do have 3 characters with full DL, knowing that I can only gear out 1 is so disheartening.

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You gear out another one... it's called switching. You people honestly can't tell me you'd still be playing this game if you had the best gear in the game within 1 week...

That's ridiculous. Use your brains, people!

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Originally Posted by C-croft

I see this being abused too though. If it is per job you could easily have your group pass and let the Main tank of your main party setup get all tank gear. That way, the following week, you would have a tank decked in tank gear, because it was tunneled to them. Essentially, it give a workaround for the lockout completely, assuming you have enough people with all 9 jobs, and a party setup for each of the nine jobs.

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It's far less abuseable though. Yeah you have twice as many chances for loot but you're running the content twice and putting in the effort, and presumably other people would want loot too, rather than having literally 100% of it funneled to you because everyone else is locked out on loot.

Though I will admit for jobs that share gear it might be a little a little faster than intended. Plus, if people were to put in the effort to get several jobs "coil ready" it seems like there should be some plus side to doing that, no?

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Originally Posted by Trasias

You gear out another one... it's called switching. You people honestly can't tell me you'd still be playing this game if you had the best gear in the game within 1 week...

That's ridiculous. Use your brains, people!

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You can't get the best gear full stop within a year on multiple characters, so please, just be quiet.

Totally agree.

The main selling point is being able to play all jobs on one char however the gearing system does not promote it.

Infact, it forces players to make multiple characters instead to get around the mythos cap.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

You can't get the best gear full stop within a year on multiple characters, so please, just be quiet.

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Allagan, Coil of Bahamut drops, are currently the best gear in the game... by what you and others are QQ'ing about, you'd be able, by nature, gear a class within two weeks, maximum.