Cash shop confirmed

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Yes, because clearly my upgrade to the CE, made primarily out of gratitude to SE for successfully transforming their next-gen MMO into something I wanted to play, is the same thing as a cash shop. Totally the same thing. /sarcasm

There's no reason to try and ridicule people with valid opinions and, if you are going to do so, using something other than an irrelevant one-liner is preferable.

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God forbid you actually bought the Collector's Edition for the Security Token or Art book or any of other selection of physical goods.

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Originally Posted by zar

lol @ people against cash shop yet have the deluxe edition

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Well to be fair, it came with a mini soundtrack, dvd with cutscenes, art book, and security token in addition to in-game items. The in-game items were just an extra bonus to those tangible items.

And yes, this excludes the digital deluxe edition. I can't say I disagree in that case.

Still, I'm not sure how this pertains to selling previously available items for cash.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

God forbid you actually bought the Collector's Edition for the Security Token or Art book or any of other selection of physical goods.

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Or got it as a gift from a friend :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Has any MMORPG ever randomly raised its subscription?

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I agree with your post for all the points made. I do want to point out, though, that I have experienced an MMORPG in the past raise it's subscription fee while I was playing. I want to say it was EverQuest II, but I'm not positive on that and I really don't care enough to go back and try to find it. So it does happen. And personally I'd rather a subscription increase of $1-$2 a month over putting in a cash shop. It feels more honest to me since I knew it was a possibility in the long run.

It's always felt shady to me when a company changes the way a customer funds it like this (more the how, not the how much like a subscription increase). I went into the game with the concept of "It's a monthly subscription game. All evidence shows I get all access to the game for that subscription. Of course, I'll have to buy expansions and the like." And Yoshi P has made numerous points about how the game needs to be a monthly subscription model and the benefits of it. No where that I have seen anywhere has there even been a hint to a cash shop for anything more than appearance change, server change, and (maybe one day...) name change services like most MMOs, no matter their subscription model, have. Generally the additional cost is because it's a one-off service feature.

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Originally Posted by zar

lol @ people against cash shop yet have the deluxe edition

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I'm against cash shop. I have the collector's edition. I played the beta of 1.0 right before release and decided I didn't care for it. I was working in retail when 1.0 came out. I wandered by the gaming section a while after release and saw a CE box for about $30 I think it was since no one wanted it. I scooped it up. I love the nifty things you get in the CE boxes. The physical things are what usually attract me to those. Having the CE and being against a cash shop is not hypocritical in the least, even though you try to imply it is.

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Originally Posted by zar

lol @ people against cash shop yet have the deluxe edition

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deluxe edition is a one time purchase that enhances the game on a microscopic scale. cash shops are continuously updated and worsen the game on a microscopic scale. how is this difficult for you to understand?

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Originally Posted by zar

lol @ people against cash shop yet have the deluxe edition

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lol @ people who are for the cash shop because it's "vanity only" and therefore somehow does not matter -- yet, without fail, they are always the ones with fancy hats, glasses, or other unique gear skins they worked to earn in-game

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

lol @ people who are for the cash shop because it's "vanity only" and therefore somehow does not matter -- yet, without fail, they are always the ones with fancy hats, glasses, or other unique gear skins they worked to earn in-game

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Honestly, there was a wonderful woman who got turned into a meme that once said "I ain't got time for that!"

I have a limited amount of time to play. would I rather spend my time getting this fancy hat and gear, or would I rather make some gil, and practice for ScoB? Ill pay $10 dollars for my looks, thank you.

in other news, 1125 posts? really people? #nolife

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Originally Posted by tocsin

in other news, 1125 posts? really people? #nolife

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But...you're posting here...too....smh

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Originally Posted by tocsin

in other news, 1125 posts? really people? #nolife

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For implying they have no life I find it hilarious that you've posted endless amount of times in this thread. I wonder how having a life implies constant stalking and posting in this thread. lol

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Originally Posted by tocsin

Honestly, there was a wonderful woman who got turned into a meme that once said "I ain't got time for that!"

I have a limited amount of time to play. would I rather spend my time getting this fancy hat and gear, or would I rather make some gil, and practice for ScoB? Ill pay $10 dollars for my looks, thank you.

in other news, 1125 posts? really people? #nolife

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YES! please add scob skins with no stats, that shouldn't bother anyone right? :rolleyes:

Since it got brought up I would like to ask how is a one time account upgrade that applies to any and all characters you've made or will make the same as a one time purchase that only affect a single one of your characters?

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

But...you're posting here...too....smh

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I know, and I resemble my own remark. )

I just stir the pot, like a witch with their brew, waiting for it to explode.

Hey, this thread has gotten me through 3 12 hour shifts this week with entertainment.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

I know, and I resemble my own remark. )

I just stir the pot, like a witch with their brew, waiting for it to explode.

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Because that's a healthy thing to do to a community you're apart of >.>;

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Because that's a healthy thing to do to a community you're apart of >.>;

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And so is trying to organise a collective abusing and harassing of people who use the cash-shop ingame.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

lol @ people who are for the cash shop because it's "vanity only" and therefore somehow does not matter -- yet, without fail, they are always the ones with fancy hats, glasses, or other unique gear skins they worked to earn in-game

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Money does not fall from trees. The vanity you get in-game or in the store was worked for either way.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

And so is trying to organise a collective abusing and harassing of people who use the cash-shop ingame.

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There is a lot of both fearmongering and harassment in this thread. point is, SE decided that cash shop was a profitable thing to add, and the community seems to be pretty evenly divided on the issue.

This is like republicans vs democrats, except the republicans are the people voting against cash shop, and the democrats want it. people with things, vs people without them.

Wow, post limit! I havent reached that since turning 50! thanks guys for keeping me entertained everyone!

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Originally Posted by Darkshade

idk man, wouldn't it be the other way around with republicans wanting freedom of market and democrats wanting free hand outs?

I'm kidding. I still detest SE double dipping. Remember to vote kids.

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I was figuring republicans wanting exclusivity, locking things behind both time and skill walls (time being the one factor that no amount of hard work can surmount), vs democrats wanting to be able to access everything no matter who it is, just by paying into the system.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

TL;DR: ARR was successful "as is" and it seems that it was able to rescue the company from the hole that it was in. There was no need to change the status quo with a chance of alienating a big chunk of your playerbase and scaring away other potential customers with something as controversial as a cash shop, instead of just keep doing what they have been doing since 1.x's disaster. Haste makes waste.

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There was no need in your opinion but another possibility is that the game will stay the same quality while having a bigger revenue stream which will allow Square Enix to finally put cash in their investing activities. Their other games have been taking way too long to get released (KH3, FFXV for examples) if more money means more investment and faster release, then yes, I am all up for it.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

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Twisting people words and taking the other side argument out of context while ignoring the earlier points brought is all I see in there.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

Hardly.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...optional-items

Dev Post correcting prices of cash shop items: 18 likes
My post asking for the removal of cash shop: 171 likes

I know it's not much to go on but that alone tells all you need to know. Same happens throughout that thread.

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Less than 1% of the playerbase posts on the forum. 171 likes out of ~5000 people who posts means squat in the grand scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

There is a lot of both fearmongering and harassment in this thread. point is, SE decided that cash shop was a profitable thing to add, and the community seems to be pretty evenly divided on the issue.

This is like republicans vs democrats, except the republicans are the people voting against cash shop, and the democrats want it. people with things, vs people without them.

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Hardly.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...optional-items

Dev Post correcting prices of cash shop items: 18 likes
My post asking for the removal of cash shop: 171 likes

I know it's not much to go on but that alone tells all you need to know. Same happens throughout that thread.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Twisting people words and taking the other side argument out of context while ignoring the earlier points brought is all I see in there.

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You mean what a huge majority (not all) of the posters that are okay with or pro cash shop are doing with the well reasoned responses those of us against it are giving in this thread?

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Originally Posted by tocsin

There is a lot of both fearmongering and harassment in this thread. point is, SE decided that cash shop was a profitable thing to add, and the community seems to be pretty evenly divided on the issue.

This is like republicans vs democrats, except the republicans are the people voting against cash shop, and the democrats want it. people with things, vs people without them.

Wow, post limit! I havent reached that since turning 50! thanks guys for keeping me entertained everyone!

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idk man, wouldn't it be the other way around with republicans wanting freedom of market and democrats wanting free hand outs?

I'm kidding. I still detest SE double dipping. Remember to vote kids.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

Hardly.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...optional-items

Dev Post correcting prices of cash shop items: 18 likes
My post asking for the removal of cash shop: 171 likes

I know it's not much to go on but that alone tells all you need to know. Same happens throughout that thread.

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You're right, it's not. That was "Here are the correct prices.", and "I HATE CASH SHOP."

It was not "Who's in favor of a cash shop?" vs. "PLEASE LISTEN TO ME I REALLY HATE CASH SHOP."

Hardly a good way to measure the community's opinion.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

"I ain't got time for that!"

I have a limited amount of time to play.

in other news, 1125 posts? really people? #nolife

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Last I checked, everyone has 24 hours in their day. How you choose to spend it is your business. When you say "I have a limited amount of time to play," what you really mean is that you are not willing to allot more than a certain amount of time to a game. If you choose to work longer hours and accumulate more money, good for you. If you want to spend more time with family/friends, great. I applaud it. That is your choice, and I doubt you will regret it.

And heck, maybe the game is too grindy. It's a well-known flaw of the MMO genre. After all, they don't charge a subscription fee so you can blast through the content in a couple of months and then quit. However, installing a cash shop into the game does nothing to address this concern.

When it comes down to it, you knowingly got yourself invested in a very time-consuming game. Instead of expecting all other players to have the same comfortable living wage as you, or expecting the game to radically shift its revenue model and reduce the value of the base subscription, have you considered that perhaps it is you who needs to adjust? Do you, someone who admitted does not have time to invest in getting prestigious cosmetic items for their own sake, need to be the talk of the town in a virtual world? Do you think the hallmark of fair, quality game design is expressed where success and prominence can be bought for cash?

I get it, time is valuable. But all our time is valuable, not just the time of the wealthy, or those gullible enough not to value of their own money, or those who don't care what sort of message their patronage of a cash shop sends to game developers.

Time is important. Money is important. But however you balance those resources, success in any game should be won through playing that game, and not through simply throwing money at bad design.

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Originally Posted by zar

Money does not fall from trees. The vanity you get in-game or in the store was worked for either way.

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I agree. And it was worked for, because it is important to people. People value that stuff. Too many of those who support the cash shop are telling us that we shouldn't complain, because "it's vanity only" and not pay-to-win. Except, vanity/cosmetic items are a form of "winning." It has tons of value, possibly as much as having better stats. If it weren't valuable or important, there would be no vanity items in any cash shops, in any games. I am just fed up with the hypocrisy of those who tell me "it's just cosmetic-only, it doesn't matter," while sporting fancy gear, mounts, etc.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

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I completely agree. And I also agree that items should be available both ways. I created the "Reverse cash shop" thread for that reason (shameless plug). if people can trade to win via gil, and essentially pay for cash shop items with gil, including subscriptions, then everyone wins. it is available in all ways.

I'm personally pro cash shop, even though im likely to never buy anything out of it ever. I don't care about vanity, and my character looks like a clown, and im okay with that. but if someone like me, who cannot afford to live and play the game to the level required to get such items, wants vanity, they should be able to get it.

Just to make my stance clear on this, I am against cahs shop exclusivity, but pro cash shop availability. I am also against "pay to win", but I am pro "tradeoff to win".

Here I am, using my post limits as soon as the cooldown expires. I feel like the BLM of forums!

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Originally Posted by Mysteran

You mean what a huge majority (not all) of the posters that are okay with or pro cash shop are doing with the well reasoned responses those of us against it are giving in this thread?

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I can't speak for everyone but if you notice me do it, feel free to point it out.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Last I checked, everyone has 24 hours in their day. How you choose to spend it is your business. When you say "I have a limited amount of time to play," what you really mean is that you are not willing to allot more than a certain amount of time to a game. If you choose to work longer hours and accumulate more money, good for you.

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I don't think you understand how having a job works. The people who are able to choose how many hours they work are a minority. Also, you can't play an online video game while homeless.

One other opinion before I head off to bed I guess.

As I've stated, I'm against cash shops in general. More so in games that are already using a subscription model. I've said that before. I'm not necessarily against games that were built with that in mind and were up front about it before I started investing any of my time and money into playing. I know what I'm going into before I spend any personal assets on it.

Beyond all that though, I don't like how it was announced or the timing on it. Before I say more, I want to stress. I'm not trying to say this was planned or a conspiracy or anything of the sort. I'm just stating things I dislike.

It was announced at a Fan Festival. Whether people like or dislike the cash shop, a lot of them had already put down a lot of money (and time) for tickets, travel, accommodations, etc. They announced the Expansion and gave a good bit of info with hints of other info to come. They waited till the live letter later on in the second day to announce the Cash Shop though. Tickets for EU Fan Festival were already sold out as well. So they got a lot of money out of people that may have made a different decision about attending Fan Festival had they known about it before putting their money down on it.

Then kinda ending the Cash Shop announcement with "Oh by the way, it's happening in just over a week. Along with a patch with content people have been looking forward to for a long while". We won't be able to get any meaningful data out of a subscription jump or decline really with the multiple factors. (not that we had that info to begin with) And there's really no time for player input. It's already a done deal.

I remember when the devs used to take the communities opinions into consideration. Not just drop a bomb and say "too late bitches"

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Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

I remember when the devs used to take the communities opinions into consideration. Not just drop a bomb and say "too late bitches"

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They do, the community aren't 50 ppl holding pitchforks about something in the forum.

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Originally Posted by Mysteran

I'm not necessarily against games that were built with that in mind and were up front about it before I started investing any of my time and money into playing. I know what I'm going into before I spend any personal assets on it.

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Yoshi P mentioned the cash shop much earlier this year... And I specifically remember a time earlier this year when he said "We have never said we won't have a cash shop or that we won't have a free to play option." I'm really not understanding where the surprise is coming from. I'm also not understanding why people think having a monthly fee automatically means no cash shop. Cash shops are main stream now, it is one of those things that comes with MMOs (and modern gaming in general these days, even with single player games) that you just have to get used to.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

Cash shops are main stream now, it is one of those things that comes with MMOs (and modern gaming in general these days, even with single player games) that you just have to get used to.

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"...that you have to get used to it"
Great mindset...
You are a well disciplined costumer.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There was no need in your opinion but another possibility is that the game will stay the same quality while having a bigger revenue stream which will allow Square Enix to finally put cash in their investing activities. Their other games have been taking way too long to get released (KH3, FFXV for examples) if more money means more investment and faster release, then yes, I am all up for it.

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Where did I read that...? Ah, yes, in the forums of the other games that introduced a cash shop and/or went F2P. Did they stay the same quality without coughing up more money? I don't think so.

But hey, we're special.

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Originally Posted by Amaret

They do, the community aren't 50 ppl holding pitchforks about something in the forum.

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That doesn't make any sense.
I'm sure they're listening to the feedback of those that don't say anything >.>

I'm sure I'm not saying anything new, here (29 pages of 40 posts! TL;DR), but I feel the need to throw down my two cents in my own words.

Developmentally and mechanically, I don't have much against a cash shop. I support it, even. I want the game to succeed and I want to fund it. Didn't take the opportunity to celebrate a holiday, but want the item? Feel free to pay. It lowers the prestige of having been there, but raises money for the game. That's all well and fine; I wasn't flaunting my pumpkin head in some sucker's face 'cause they chose to skip Halloween that year, anyway, and it's not like they're selling the Dalamud Horn.

Needless to say, selling any item that provides any advantage in any way beyond aesthetics is clearly something that would make a lot of people lose faith in the game. Even selling the extra inventory space of extra retainers creeps dangerously close to that line, but who didn't have a mule or two in FFXI? It's not like they limited inventory to any degree that any meaningful advantage could be gained from 4 retainers beyond the ability to be a hoarder. SE realizes this, and that's wonderful.

But they've missed something just as important.

Selling items that were directly created for the cash shop, never giving fans the chance to celebrate them and obtain them by supporting the game in the right time or by having a certain level of skill (or determination), violates the spirit of this game and everything I've seen from it so far. When I see an exciting new item in a preview, you want my first reaction to be "I can't wait to get that!" not, "Wow, I hope it's not cash-only." And that's what I'm going to think from now on. That's going to be my first reaction to a beautifully designed piece of gear or a minion that brings a smile to my face: "Wow, I sure hope they didn't create that just to wall it off for a fee." Is that what you want to expect from us? Is that what we can expect from you? Should I be ready to accept that my subscription isn't worth your best work on anything that doesn't have stats on it, anymore? That's not the spirit of A Realm Reborn.

There should always be a chance - some chance - to get any item - just from being a loyal subscriber.

Yoshida-san, I've been with you since the beginning, and I know you're better than that.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Where did I read that...? Ah, yes, in the forums of the other games that introduced a cash shop and/or went F2P. Did they stay the same quality without coughing up more money? I don't think so.

But hey, we're special.

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Anecdotal evidences are worthless to prove a point. Do you have any actual arguments or is that the best you can come up with ?

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Originally Posted by IveraIvalice

That doesn't make any sense.
I'm sure they're listening to the feedback of those that don't say anything >.>

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I'm sure they are listening to a raging mob which represents 0.001% of the games community.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm sure I'm not saying anything new, here (29 pages of 40 posts! TL;DR), but I feel the need to throw down my two cents in my own words.

Developmentally and mechanically, I don't have much against a cash shop. I support it, even. I want the game to succeed and I want to fund it. Didn't take the opportunity to celebrate a holiday, but want the item? Feel free to pay. It lowers the prestige of having been there, but raises money for the game. That's all well and fine; I wasn't flaunting my pumpkin head in some sucker's face 'cause they chose to skip Halloween that year, anyway, and it's not like they're selling the Dalamud Horn.

Needless to say, selling any item that provides any advantage in any way beyond aesthetics is clearly something that would make a lot of people lose faith in the game. Even selling the extra inventory space of extra retainers creeps dangerously close to that line, but who didn't have a mule or two in FFXI? It's not like they limited inventory to any degree that any meaningful advantage could be gained from 4 retainers beyond the ability to be a hoarder. SE realizes this, and that's wonderful.

But they've missed something just as important.

Selling items that were directly created for the cash shop, never giving fans the chance to celebrate them and obtain them by supporting the game in the right time or by having a certain level of skill (or determination), violates the spirit of this game and everything I've seen from it so far. When I see an exciting new item in a preview, you want my first reaction to be "I can't wait to get that!" not, "Wow, I hope it's not cash-only." And that's what I'm going to think from now on. That's going to be my first reaction to a beautifully designed piece of gear or a minion that brings a smile to my face: "Wow, I sure hope they didn't create that just to wall it off for a fee." Is that what you want to expect from us? Is that what we can expect from you? Should I be ready to accept that my subscription isn't worth your best work on anything that doesn't have stats on it, anymore? That's not the spirit of A Realm Reborn.

There should always be a chance - some chance - to get any item - just from being a loyal subscriber.

Yoshida-san, I've been with you since the beginning, and I know you're better than that.

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Well said. Suggesting post be added to OP.

I'm just going to also add to my posts here that I DO wish that the time that they spent creating the cash shop had gone into my favorite classes, the DoH and DoL's. seriously SE, I could care less about an odin pony, give me a damn set of crafters gear above ilvl 55!

Seriously, I would buy the hell out of that at the cash shop all day long.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Yoshida-san, I've been with you since the beginning, and I know you're better than that.

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Then you'd know he stated he's open to F2P model if needed and microtransactions, meaning this isn't going against anything he has said. SE has plans for this from the get go for XIV in general -

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Wada went on to outline the subscription and microtransaction models that FFXIV will employ, adding the company is looking to improve on the Final Fantasy XI system.

“The basic model hasn't changed,” he said. “It's a monthly flat rate service with additional charges for items that users want to buy.

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http://www.develop-online.net/news/f...s-wada/0105940

Yoshida himself also has said out west (NA/EU) gamers are more likely to pay for what they want than pay a sub fee for online gaming, which is why F2P is so successful and MOBA games make so much money.

Everything I want to say has been said. I don't want there to be a cash shop in this game. I felt my stomach drop right out of me when I first saw that slide come up on screen and as they continued to talk about it I just started to feel sick. I 'almost' felt better when Yoshi said, "No pay to win." But then as I thought about it more and looking at the 'exclusive' items already available only from the cash shop I just feel sick again. I know not everyone agrees but this is something that hits me really hard.

Nice first post. I think if they add the cash shop next week with 2.4, i will loose my trust in Yoshi and overall this game and might end up with canceling my sub some day. It really makes me sad to see a cash shop in this game. :(