Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

"Endgame content is stuff you do at max level with your max level character in max level content"

OK then,
Max level crafting and gather is endgame content.
Any achievement that requires you to be max level or enter a max level instance is also endgame content.
Acquiring any mount, minion or music roll that requires you to be max level or enter a max level instance is endgame content.
Hunting for glamour that requires you to be max level or enter max level content is endgame content.
Savage and normal mode are endgame content.
EX-Dungeons are endgame content.
Levelling Trusts (As you had to clear the MSQ thus gotten to max level) are endgame content.
EX-Trials are endgame content.
ShB treasure dungeon is endgame content.
ShB max level hunts are endgame content.

By 5.1.x

Eureka's replacement will be endgame content.
The Relic will be endgame content.
The 24-man raid will be endgame content.
Ultimate will be endgame content.
Plus some of the things listed above will get additions (more EX's dungeons and trials, more crafting and gathering e.c.t)


Seems like a fair amount to me.

Ironically Ultimate, the hardest, longest lasting and more challenging piece of content in the game currently is NOT endgame content for those who want challenging endgame content under this criteria.

There, I used the definition and I see a fair amount right there with more coming shortly, unless of course we get into personal preference in which case each of us could cross 90% of the things from that list as we don't wanna do them, but then it becomes a you problem not the games problem.

It's not "There's a lack of endgame content." Its "There's a lack of endgame content *I* wish to do."

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So you guys are going to keep telling the OP to go do content that has nothing to do with what he is asking for before he can talk about what he is asking for. Got it. It's frustrating because you guys are trying to stop relevant discussion about what you know he is referring to by putting this other information in there and not addressing what he is talking about. I mean, I'm fine with people who at least address his actual point, rather than being deliberately obtuse to his request.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

This thread is so very toxic. Let it go already. You are welcome to your opinion as is everyone else. You are 108 pages into this thread and absolutely nothing is resolved and it never will be.

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It's funny because the non-raiders are the ones who made it toxic. I tried repeatedly to be civil at the start of this thread, only to have my opinions go for the most part, unheard. Very few have actually talked directly to me here, instead, replying with things like 'go back to WoW', 'don't try to change this game into something it's not(don't ask for anything)', 'we have a bunch of content so you're clearly doing it wrong if you don't enjoy what I do,' or, my personal favorite 'Have you done absolutely everything in this game? Every hunt, crafted every single type of item? Looked at every single pixel on the ground of the world map? Talked to every single NPC? No? Then you can't ask for stuff!'

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So you guys are going to keep telling the OP to go do content that has nothing to do with what he is asking for before he can talk about what he is asking for. Got it. It's frustrating because you guys are trying to stop relevant discussion about what you know he is referring to by putting this other information in there and not addressing what he is talking about. I mean, I'm fine with people who at least address his actual point, rather than being deliberately obtuse to his request.



It's funny because the non-raiders are the ones who made it toxic. I tried repeatedly to be civil at the start of this thread, only to have my opinions go for the most part, unheard. Very few have actually talked directly to me here, instead, replying with things like 'go back to WoW', 'don't try to change this game into something it's not(don't ask for anything)', 'we have a bunch of content so you're clearly doing it wrong if you don't enjoy what I do,' or, my personal favorite 'Have you done absolutely everything in this game? Every hunt, crafted every single type of item? Looked at every single pixel on the ground of the world map? Talked to every single NPC? No? Then you can't ask for stuff!'

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I was given the definition of endgame people wanted to use in this thread and I listed all content that fell into it, that's as on topic as I can be, he asked for what max level content keeps people busy I listed all the things that could be considered max level content by that definition, if someone chose to ignore most of it then yes, any game will look light in any department if you limit what you chose to do.
Can he want and ask for a very, very specific portion of content? Sure, I'd like much more crafting and gathering content but "lack of content I like at max level" is not the same as "Lack of endgame content."

I do not think the game lacks endgame content overall, you can argue your small desired portion is lacking but that is not the same as endgame content, yes some people have said anything you do after you've a max level character counts, but those on the other side have also disregarded things that do count by their own definition as endgame content.
Everything I listed counts as endgame content by that definition given to me, if you refuse to count everything on that list then this isn't about lack of endgame content overall, its about lack of endgame content you like, which is fine, but this thread and people in it are arguing lack of endgame content overall, those people are being just as stubborn as those who claim anything counts as endgame content.

This thread would have gone over better if the title was "I wish there was more of X content type." followed by. "I really like X kind of endgame content, could we please have more of it?" Instead of "Lack of endgame content."
Because in my option, there isn't, not unless you start omitting parts of it.

I would agree the game does not lack content overall, it has more then most games.



The game lacks progression based content at endgame. (What most ppl complaining about lack of endgame are actually referring to)

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I would agree the game does not lack content overall, it has more then most games.



The game lacks progression based content at endgame. (What most ppl complaining about lack of endgame are actually referring to)

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Which is fair and I agree in that area it could do with more, it's why I said this thread would have done far better if it made it clear in title and OP what exactly it was about. As opposed to throwing out a blanket lack of endgame content then having to spend the whole thread defining itself.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Which is fair and I agree in that area it could do with more, it's why I said this thread would have done far better if it made it clear in title and OP what exactly it was about. As opposed to throwing out a blanket lack of endgame content then having to spend the whole thread defining itself.

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Not sure it would have been a magical cure because people seem to think leveling alt jobs is endgame content. And if people think that, then they'd think the leveling is progressing and therefore progression based content. So it's likely they would have still thrown out leveling all jobs, crafters, gatherers as "progression based content at endgame".

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Not sure it would have been a magical cure because people seem to think leveling alt jobs is endgame content. And if people think that, then they'd think the leveling is progressing and therefore progression based content. So it's likely they would have still thrown out leveling all jobs, crafters, gatherers as "progression based content at endgame".

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But that's because of the broadness of the claim. "Lack of endgame content" gives them room to add in what they think is endgame content even if it isn't.

If I asked you, I'm looking to buy a car, help me chose, that leaves you to pick anything, but if I said "I'm looking to buy a 4 door sedan, help me chose" I've let you know where to aim.
If the OP had made the thread all about the type of endgame content they felt was lacking rather than saying the game lacked endgame content overall the topic could have been more focused.

Yes, people could and likely would still have gone off topic as most topics get some people like that, but the door wouldn't have been open as to some even if you disagree with how they use the term consider alt job levelling or anything to do post max level and their endgame.

Had the OP made the thread all about the type of content they wanted to see not endgame as a whole those people wouldn't have had any grounds at all.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

I would agree the game does not lack content overall, it has more then most games.



The game lacks progression based content at endgame. (What most ppl complaining about lack of endgame are actually referring to)

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So we can conclude that FFXIV might just be a different MMORPG compared to some other games in the genre in terms of its focus. There is progression, and then there is all the other things that can be done while taking a break from progression. That works for some people and not for others.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

We are 108 pages into this topic because people keep intentionally mis-defining terms so they can talk about stuff not relevant to the topic. Then they hide behind "endgame is subjective". No, it isn't, it's well established in the community what the meaning of endgame is and if your opinion is contrary to that established definition then your opinion is wrong.

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well apparently the community here does not agree.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

We are 108 pages into this topic because people keep intentionally mis-defining terms so they can talk about stuff not relevant to the topic. Then they hide behind "endgame is subjective". No, it isn't, it's well established in the community what the meaning of endgame is and if your opinion is contrary to that established definition then your opinion is wrong.

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This is my last post on this thread. This statement is absurd. Nobody defines what end game is except the player themselves. The player defines what they choose to do when they hit max level not some other guy with an opinion on what it should be. This is not WoW. There is plenty of content to do outside of raiding and it shows in how SE continues to develop content. You may not like this and thats fine. Don't try to jam your opinion down anothers throat though. You can't control anything in this world. Live it. Learn it. Love it.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

This is my last post on this thread. This statement is absurd. Nobody defines what end game is except the player themselves. The player defines what they choose to do when they hit max level not some other guy with an opinion on what it should be. This is not WoW. There is plenty of content to do outside of raiding and it shows in how SE continues to develop content. You may not like this and thats fine. Don't try to jam your opinion down anothers throat though. You can't control anything in this world. Live it. Learn it. Love it.

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An absurd idea. I do not invent individual meanings of words to then use when I talk with other people in society, because the other people in society won't know what I'm talking about. Language is community developed, not individually developed. The idea that individuals in this thread will change what the meaning of endgame is because it doesn't fit their individual world few is futile. It will not happen.

If your idea of endgame content is at odds with the community's as a whole, and by community we are talking about the entire MMO community, then you are wrong. End of story. You can't control everything in this world, you cannot control the way language is developed. Learn it. Love it.

Endgame content is not "content you choose to do once you hit max level", it never has been and it never will be.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

This is my last post on this thread. This statement is absurd. Nobody defines what end game is except the player themselves. The player defines what they choose to do when they hit max level not some other guy with an opinion on what it should be. This is not WoW. There is plenty of content to do outside of raiding and it shows in how SE continues to develop content. You may not like this and thats fine. Don't try to jam your opinion down anothers throat though. You can't control anything in this world. Live it. Learn it. Love it.

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I just don't understand. We established long ago that the OP was talking about challenging endgame battle content. So why are you guys still trying to argue over what constitutes endgame? If you think that doing sightseeing logs at level 80 is endgame, whatever. That's not what the OP is asking for. Does anyone want to address the ACTUAL topic instead of continuously trying to derail the thread into meaningless prattle? It's easier to put endgame in the title than 'challenging battle content at max level.'

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I just don't understand. We established long ago that the OP was talking about challenging endgame battle content. So why are you guys still trying to argue over what constitutes endgame? If you think that doing sightseeing logs at level 80 is endgame, whatever. That's not what the OP is asking for. Does anyone want to address the ACTUAL topic instead of continuously trying to derail the thread into meaningless prattle? It's easier to put endgame in the title than 'challenging battle content at max level.'

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Because certain people aren't interested in discussing the topic, they're interested in pushing an agenda. And a futile one at that.

I play for about 3-4 hours per night. Here's what I did last night to "keep busy"

-Leveling Roulette (AST. I would have leveled AST as my first healer, but I was waiting for 5.05 to see if they would get fixed)
-Alliance Raid Roulette (DRG. NIN got shafted in the last patch, so leveling my second favorite melee DPS)
-Expert Roulette (yummy Phantasmagora tomes)
-50/60/70 Roulette (normally don't do this, but trying to get my "Tank you GNB" achieves done)
-Ananta and Kojin Beast quests (finished all my crafters to 70+, so only do Namazu for the ventures if I have time)
-ES1 Savage
-Couple of runs of Titania and Innocence EX (slowly building tokens to buy the mounts later if I need them)

That's more or less what I do most nights, with a little variation. For example, two nights ago, I farmed Thordan EX for the mount which I had never bothered to farm before.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Because certain people aren't interested in discussing the topic, they're interested in pushing an agenda. And a futile one at that.

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I stopped posting on this awhile ago because it was redundant. But really, at this point haven't you figured out that everytime you post how factual everything you say is, it's bait for people to disagree with you? Or are you trolling?

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Originally Posted by savageink

I stopped posting on this awhile ago because it was redundant. But really, at this point haven't you figured out that everytime you post how factual everything you say is, it's bait for people to disagree with you? Or are you trolling?

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Whenever someone invents their own definition of endgame and make a post based on that, they may not be aware of it but they're contributing to the derailing of the thread. Which has happened since pretty much the first page.

By getting people to stick to the community's definition of endgame, the ACTUAL definition of endgame, the definition people have been using for over a decade (which the OP has followed,) I have tried (futilely) to get people to stay on topic. This hasn't worked fully but there has been an improvement imo. If only by a little.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Does anyone want to address the ACTUAL topic instead of continuously trying to derail the thread into meaningless prattle? It's easier to put endgame in the title than 'challenging battle content at max level.'

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What do you think still needs to be addressed about the topic that hasn't been said somewhere in the last 1000 or so posts?

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Whenever someone invents their own definition of endgame and make a post based on that, they may not be aware of it but they're contributing to the derailing of the thread. Which has happened since pretty much the first page.

By getting people to stick to the community's definition of endgame, the ACTUAL definition of endgame, the definition people have been using for over a decade (which the OP has followed,) I have tried (futilely) to get people to stay on topic. This hasn't worked fully but there has been an improvement imo. If only by a little.

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What actually has happened is the definition of endgame has been debated for at least 10 years. Some people think that MMO design is actually hampered by the reliance on the WoW formula. Probably including the FFXIV designers who removed gear and level from PvP specifically because you can't rank anybody in a skill challenge if they go into it with an advantage. Grinding your gear may make you win but it doesn't make you suck less in a level playing field.

Anyway, feel free to continue saying things are set in stone that are not.

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Originally Posted by savageink

What actually has happened is the definition of endgame has been debated for at least 10 years. Some people think that MMO design is actually hampered by the reliance on the WoW formula. Probably including the FFXIV designers who removed gear and level from PvP specifically because you can't rank anybody in a skill challenge if they go into it with an advantage. Grinding your gear may make you win but it doesn't make you suck less in a level playing field.

Anyway, feel free to continue saying things are set in stone that are not.

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The debate over the definition of endgame has been whether it refers to all content introduced at max level, or only the very hardest content introduced at max level. The content been put forward as "endgame" in this topic is content that has never been regarded as end game content, and so can be freely discarded. Endgame is an MMO concept, the MMO community decides the definition not three or four people in this thread.

The reliance on WoW formula has little to do with this topic.

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Originally Posted by linay

What do you think still needs to be addressed about the topic that hasn't been said somewhere in the last 1000 or so posts?

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I mean, ideally there could be suggestions about how to improve this area of content. Constructive criticism. It seems pointless to continue arguing about whether things like level 80 Chocobo racing are considered endgame or not...This doesn't really help anything. The discussion has probably run its course at this point. But I would want to keep it visible for the devs to see.

Zabuza and Kaylessa, you both can also stop playing the game if you don't feel happy about the current state of it. It is ok to take a break.

Now to answer your both questions about endgame content, over the past years FFXIV has always been a slowburner in terms of story, content and such. Since I think Havensward they always come out with 1 wing 8 man with 4 bosses Normal and 4-5 bosses Savage. Then the patch after they come out with the 24 man raid which will take maybe a few hours to complete. Later on you will then have the Relic questline, which might be the thing you both are after.

Relic questlines are long, grindy and takes effort and skill (sometimes) to complete. And relic weapons and gear tend to be the second or thirdbest gear you can get in the game. So my advice would be to quit the game and come back when the relic questlines are in the game. People suspect it might come during 5.1 or 5.2.

FFXIV is not WoW. Nor will it ever be like WoW. FFXIV does not demand you login everyday to do grinds unless you have a personal goal for it. (Beast tribes daily grind to get glamour, mounts or story, and emotes)
Now also how to improve endgame content, well if you look at numbers and how many people do raids. You might be surprised to see most people only run normal 8 man once or twice and then they are off to do other things. This is the core playerbase. From now on I will call them core.

The core is the lifeblood of this game. Not the hardcore raiders. The core is what buy items in the cashshops, buys special editions, merch, Alpha plushie (serious I pay an arm and a leg for one!) etc. And how do you keep the core happy? By giving them options. Such as Golden saucer and its massive amounts of content, Hildy questline, glamour contests, Housing, treasure maps, mount hunting, hunts, card collection, chocobo breeding, mahjong, level other jobs, play music in the major cities, roleplaying, achivment hunting (Some achivments are very hard and time consuming to get but you do tend to get nifty items), FC events, crafting, Side quests. I mgiht have missed some. But these thing I posted here is the cores endgame content.

From my understanding you two want more raidlike endgame content? Of course correct me if I am wrong there. But this is not the game for such things. You get a raid every 3-3.5 months And that is it. And more expert dungeons thrown in of course, and new items. You could try PvP and start a ranked group. PvP has rewards that can only be gotten as a pvper such as a robotic flying horse mount! (I have one of them it is amazing!)

But I understand that frustration that you reach the end of Shb and see lack of content which you are used to in other games. Which is fine to feel like that. But you do well to remember that FFXIV design is built around the core. Keep the core happy and the game will keep growing. And sometimes you need to find your own endgame, maybe try to find where Alpha is hiding in the game this week, I ones found him in Mor Dohna. Make a contest finding him in the FC.

But ym bottomline here is, FFXIV has endgame content for many different types of people. Sure some will not see the things I listed as endgame since it is not raiding or high end dungeons. But for people doing them it is endgame content.

My advice if you want to take it, is to take a break from the game. It is ok to take a break, I took a break mid stormblood and came back after 5 months felt good to come back with new energy :D

Have I understood your frustrations? Or did I misunderstand you both?

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Originally Posted by Hanzar

Have I understood your frustrations? Or did I misunderstand you both?

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Read the first post on page 88, then answer your own question.

EDIT: The only thing I've tried to do is stop the complete derailing of the thread from inane, off topic replies.

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Originally Posted by Hanzar

Relic questlines are long, grindy and takes effort and skill (sometimes) to complete. And relic weapons and gear tend to be the second or thirdbest gear you can get in the game. So my advice would be to quit the game and come back when the relic questlines are in the game. People suspect it might come during 5.1 or 5.2.

FFXIV is not WoW. Nor will it ever be like WoW. FFXIV does not demand you login everyday to do grinds unless you have a personal goal for it. (Beast tribes daily grind to get glamour, mounts or story, and emotes)
Now also how to improve endgame content, well if you look at numbers and how many people do raids. You might be surprised to see most people only run normal 8 man once or twice and then they are off to do other things. This is the core playerbase. From now on I w lifeblood of this game. Not the hardcore raiders. The core is what buy items in the cashshops, buys special editions, merch, Alpha plushie (serious I pay an arm and a leg for one!) etc. And how do you keep the core happy? By giving them options. Such as Golden saucer and its massive amounts of content, Hildy questline, glamour contests, Housing, treasure maps, mount hunting, hunts, card collection, chocobo breeding, mahjong, level other jobs, play music in the major cities, roleplaying, achivment hunting (Some achivments are very hard and time consuming to get but you do tend to get nifty items), FC events, crafting, Side quests. I mgiht have missed some. But these thing I posted here is the cores endgame content.

From my understanding you two want more raidlike endgame content? Of course correct me if I am wrong there. But this is not the game for such things. You get a raid every 3-3.5 months And that is it. And more expert dungeons thrown in of course, and new items. You could try PvP and start a ranked group. PvP has rewards that can only be gotten as a pvper such as a robotic flying horse mount! (I have one of them it is amazing!)

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Well I guess they have the right to demand more content catering to their taste, even if the dev is clearly targeting the more causal audience. That’s totally fine to have an opinion, and that’s what I thought originally, until they drag other players in, claiming lack of hardcore content is the result of the causal community. It is like going to Disney land and complain the roller coasters are too family friendly and this is the result of family going to theme park. I knew I have to stop taking those claim seriously

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Originally Posted by Hanzar

Zabuza and Kaylessa, you both can also stop playing the game if you don't feel happy about the current state of it. It is ok to take a break.

Now to answer your both questions about endgame content, over the past years FFXIV has always been a slowburner in terms of story, content and such. Since I think Havensward they always come out with 1 wing 8 man with 4 bosses Normal and 4-5 bosses Savage. Then the patch after they come out with the 24 man raid which will take maybe a few hours to complete. Later on you will then have the Relic questline, which might be the thing you both are after.

Relic questlines are long, grindy and takes effort and skill (sometimes) to complete. And relic weapons and gear tend to be the second or thirdbest gear you can get in the game. So my advice would be to quit the game and come back when the relic questlines are in the game. People suspect it might come during 5.1 or 5.2.

FFXIV is not WoW. Nor will it ever be like WoW. FFXIV does not demand you login everyday to do grinds unless you have a personal goal for it. (Beast tribes daily grind to get glamour, mounts or story, and emotes)
Now also how to improve endgame content, well if you look at numbers and how many people do raids. You might be surprised to see most people only run normal 8 man once or twice and then they are off to do other things. This is the core playerbase. From now on I will call them core.

The core is the lifeblood of this game. Not the hardcore raiders. The core is what buy items in the cashshops, buys special editions, merch, Alpha plushie (serious I pay an arm and a leg for one!) etc. And how do you keep the core happy? By giving them options. Such as Golden saucer and its massive amounts of content, Hildy questline, glamour contests, Housing, treasure maps, mount hunting, hunts, card collection, chocobo breeding, mahjong, level other jobs, play music in the major cities, roleplaying, achivment hunting (Some achivments are very hard and time consuming to get but you do tend to get nifty items), FC events, crafting, Side quests. I mgiht have missed some. But these thing I posted here is the cores endgame content.

From my understanding you two want more raidlike endgame content? Of course correct me if I am wrong there. But this is not the game for such things. You get a raid every 3-3.5 months And that is it. And more expert dungeons thrown in of course, and new items. You could try PvP and start a ranked group. PvP has rewards that can only be gotten as a pvper such as a robotic flying horse mount! (I have one of them it is amazing!)

But I understand that frustration that you reach the end of Shb and see lack of content which you are used to in other games. Which is fine to feel like that. But you do well to remember that FFXIV design is built around the core. Keep the core happy and the game will keep growing. And sometimes you need to find your own endgame, maybe try to find where Alpha is hiding in the game this week, I ones found him in Mor Dohna. Make a contest finding him in the FC.

But ym bottomline here is, FFXIV has endgame content for many different types of people. Sure some will not see the things I listed as endgame since it is not raiding or high end dungeons. But for people doing them it is endgame content.

My advice if you want to take it, is to take a break from the game. It is ok to take a break, I took a break mid stormblood and came back after 5 months felt good to come back with new energy :D

Have I understood your frustrations? Or did I misunderstand you both?

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I do unsub. Often. Because I get BiS gear from Savage, aka clearing it multiple times, and then get bored. I in fact spend more time unsubbed than subbed. I don't enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

Well I guess they have the right to demand more content catering to their taste, even if the dev is clearly targeting the more causal audience. That’s totally fine to have an opinion, and that’s what I thought originally, until they drag other players in, claiming lack of hardcore content is the result of the causal community. It is like going to Disney land and complain the roller coasters are too family friendly and this is the result of family going to theme park. I knew I have to stop taking those claim seriously

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I did that because casuals started attacking me with a stance of 'how dare I try to change anything in this game.' So I replied with they basically changed the entire genre, and this game, which are both true. This game used to be higher in difficulty. If you want to stop taking my requests seriously just because I brought up a counterpoint to those who tried to shut me down, then be my guest.

I think end game is horrible... mainly because their quest formula is the worst. Grinding of instances is all this game has.... not a single quest with the depth of even a moderate to long Everquest questline.

Maybe if they had decent quests, those would be great to do instead of spamming instances.... but the oversimplified formula won't support it.

Even the "quests" for the MSQ are terrible... but you do them to hear more story.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I do unsub. Often. Because I get BiS gear from Savage, aka clearing it multiple times, and then get bored. I in fact spend more time unsubbed than subbed. I don't enjoy that.

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Hmm, if you don't enjoy that. Have you tried breaking from that pattern of getting BiS? And just do something completely different in the game? Since from what I read you stuck in the same pattern now get BiS unsub and come back do same thing and unsub. Of course I would also get tired of annoyed of content that way.

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Originally Posted by Hanzar

Hmm, if you don't enjoy that. Have you tried breaking from that pattern of getting BiS? And just do something completely different in the game? Since from what I read you stuck in the same pattern now get BiS unsub and come back do same thing and unsub. Of course I would also get tired of annoyed of content that way.

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To be fair you can't just change the way you have fun. It's pretty subjective. While I disagree with a lot of their points it's pretty unarguable if someone says they just don't enjoy stuff. The two biggest posters in this thread have several at least 70 jobs so it's not like they're completely avoiding everything except endgame.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

The debate over the definition of endgame has been whether it refers to all content introduced at max level, or only the very hardest content introduced at max level.

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With respect to FFXIV, where the only true progression is the MSQ, raiding is a side content even when the story is related to the MSQ. So it wouldn't make sense to consider such content to be exclusively the endgame when it's optional even as progression, as it will be bypassed as soon as a latter patch introduces better gear (or at least higher item level) from easier content.

Only two definitions of endgame would make sense for FFXIV.

1. Any content that requires level cap to do.
2. Any content that requires completion of x.0 MSQ to unlock, even if you can then do it on a job that is not max level.

So while leveling itself doesn't fit either of those, doing endgame content on another job is a valid suggestion to make in FFXIV for someone who has done the content on their main job. And it is only a suggestion, which can be rejected as a solution depending on player preference (no one should have to play a job they don't like), but not as being off topic to the thread.

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Endgame is an MMO concept

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Endgame is a game concept. It's the final stage of a game. The endgame to a chess game is doing similar things as in the beginning of the game, only potentially with less pieces on the board. FFXIV doesn't have to strictly follow other MMO's concept of endgame.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I mean, ideally there could be suggestions about how to improve this area of content. Constructive criticism. It seems pointless to continue arguing about whether things like level 80 Chocobo racing are considered endgame or not...This doesn't really help anything. The discussion has probably run its course at this point. But I would want to keep it visible for the devs to see.

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That is fair. Again, which is why some people have said it would've been better if this thread was constructed in such a way to elicit such responses rather than complaining about a lack of content and asking whether people feel satisfied with it and how they keep busy, but only for specific content.

As for what could be done to improve, as I've said, it's difficult to say without messing with the patch cycle that the developer seems to like. I like the comparison of FFXIV that I heard on YouTube to a wide shallow pool where the enjoyment comes in at swimming across the pool rather than diving deep. FFXIV has a diverse content to partake in, but if you only enjoy a small part of it, then it can leave you feel unsatisfied unless you find a way to prolong your enjoyment of said content, like redoing it on a different job that you may like.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I did that because casuals started attacking me with a stance of 'how dare I try to change anything in this game.' So I replied with they basically changed the entire genre, and this game, which are both true. This game used to be higher in difficulty. If you want to stop taking my requests seriously just because I brought up a counterpoint to those who tried to shut me down, then be my guest.

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You dont have to drag yourself to their level

SE is not charity, they make money and want to make more, and Yoshida have to follow.
I do agree it is the community that kill hard content (just look at A3S/A4S), but as I mention SE is not some indie company, they need money to produce more content, they need money to run the game and they want more profit out of it, and the best way is to cater the largest audience

There are MMO purely focus on end game high tier dungeon and raiding, in this case it is just not FFXIV unfortunately

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Originally Posted by Hanzar

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To be fair, just because something has always been one way, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have things it could do to be better. I mean, this game used to be harder than it used to be, but it changed to be easier to bring in more people. Change can be good. People don’t have to like it, but change is a healthy part of life. Am I happy the game changed to be as easy as it is now? Not really, but I’ve accepted it. Sure the formula works right now, but how long is it going to last before more people get bored? I feel like it’s gonna hit a peak point, but then a decline will start. When that’ll be, I don’t know.

We aren’t asking for xiv to be wow. WoW is a failing game on the decline. However, games have strengths and weaknesses, and it’s not a bad thing to compare games. For instance, I don’t like a lot about WoW, but one thing I do like about it is how unique their quests can be. Carrying wounded soldiers to healers to save them, using flame throwers to burn spider webs are just a couple examples. I would love more interactive quests like that here. Looks like they’re working on it though, since we’ve been able to play as certain npcs in the MSQ. I hate WoW just as much as the next guy/gal, but I’m not so blind as to ignore the fact that it has a couple great qualities that could be beneficial to xiv. Same for other games, it’s not just WoW. It’s just WoW was “the king” for so long and is so well known, I feel like it’s only natural that’s the game people tend to use as an example. I feel like a lot of people here need to put their hatred of WoW aside and think rationally, rather than immediately go on the attack as soon as someone brings up WoW. It doesn’t contribute to a discussion at all.

I’m sorry, but you don’t have to be a casual in order to make purchases to support the game. That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I’m a raider, and yet I’ve made plenty of purchases from the SE store, the mogstation, etc. I have the Ultima statue, I’ve purchased countless outfits, dyes, mounts, fantasias, and I would purchase others if I didn’t have rl things to save for right now. And you don’t have to be a casual to enjoy fluff content like housing, fcs and such. I do a lot with and for my FC. They’re my online family 100%. I have a house I’ve decorated with care, I enjoy glamour, etc. I do not recall anyone saying they don’t enjoy any of the fluff, however we’ve said true endgame content is the primary content of interest to us and could stand to be built on a bit.

Again endgame is max level content, not anything you do after hitting max level. Just because people do them after reaching 80 doesn’t make them endgame content. It’s still filler content pre or post 80.

I know this post isn’t aimed at myself, but I take plenty of time away from the game. Especially after my static exhausts a raid tier, I prioritize rl. I’ve even tried to play other games, but XIV always brings me back. It has my friends here that have done more for me than most would in other FCs. I don’t exaggerate when I say they’re my online family. I’m an officer, so I’m supposed to be there to make sure issues are handled and I tend to people who need help. I don’t mind helping people clear content and doing filler or fluff content with them, however it would be nice to Have something for myself to enjoy to break up the monotony of running the same dated content over and over after exhausting raids.

I know that this is a thread for endgame content and not just the high end stuff. There could stand to be more level 80 content in general, especially instances. I just personally wish there was more challenging stuff to do to keep myself stimulated. I wish for content to have more longevity rather than “it’s so easy you blow through it in an hour and then only left to grind it each week for x”. The devs work really hard, and I just feel like things could stand to be made enjoyable for longer than the extreme short term. Will the general content ever be like this? Probably not, but I wish the high end could be at least. How? I dunno. I would like at least one extra boss, but otherwise I dunno. I plan on trying ultimate again, but I’ve already come to terms that I’m not skilled enough to clear, and I’m not gonna pretend that I am. In regards to that piece of content, I’m content living vicariously through the streamers who can. Savage is my sweet spot.

I do gotta say, though, I’m super excited that crafters get their endgame content soon. It shall be interesting to see how they enjoy the Ishgard stuff once it comes out.

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Originally Posted by linay

With respect to FFXIV, where the only true progression is the MSQ, raiding is a side content even when the story is related to the MSQ. So it wouldn't make sense to consider such content to be exclusively the endgame when it's optional even as progression, as it will be bypassed as soon as a latter patch introduces better gear (or at least higher item level) from easier content.

Only two definitions of endgame would make sense for FFXIV.

1. Any content that requires level cap to do.
2. Any content that requires completion of x.0 MSQ to unlock, even if you can then do it on a job that is not max level.

So while leveling itself doesn't fit either of those, doing endgame content on another job is a valid suggestion to make in FFXIV for someone who has done the content on their main job. And it is only a suggestion, which can be rejected as a solution depending on player preference (no one should have to play a job they don't like), but not as being off topic to the thread.

Endgame is a game concept. It's the final stage of a game. The endgame to a chess game is doing similar things as in the beginning of the game, only potentially with less pieces on the board. FFXIV doesn't have to strictly follow other MMO's concept of endgame.

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FFXIV as an MMO doesn't have to strictly follow other MMOs concept of endgame, however the term endgame as an MMO term is used the same for ALL MMOs. FFXIV included. It is not special and does not get special consideration. And yes it is a game concept, but relates only to specific games, it has a specific meaning in chess and it has a specific meaning in MMOs. Look up the meaning in the Cambridge dictionary and they only apply it to chess. Look up the definition in Merriam Webster and they apply it only to chess. It is not a general term used in all games - you don't say you approach the endgame in solitaire. You don't say you approach the endgame in Go Fish. It is also not a FFXIV specific term that has a meaning unique to FFXIV.

In chess it is when few pieces remain on the board but the game can still go on for some time. The endgame can last 100+ moves. The endgame can last hours. You wouldn't say that's the final stage, except in chess it has a specific meaning relating to the number of pieces where as final often relates to time. In MMOs it is when you have finished leveling content and are doing max level content, but the game can still go on for some time. It has a specific meaning relating to leveling.

When somebody talks about endgame they are talking about the same thing across the MMO spectrum. So when somebody says the game lacks endgame, it is 100% not valid to apply a unique definition to FFXIV and say "of course it has endgame", that's called being disingenuous. Now you can say it refers to the second definition of endgame, which merriam webster defines as the final stages of anything. Funny enough applying that definition to chess would probably get you a different definition to endgame than what is the norm. However, since we're in an MMO forum talking about MMOs, and the OP specifically clarified it to mean max level, common sense would dictate we're talking about endgame the way it's used for MMOs, just like talking about it in chess circles gets you the specific definition relating to chess.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

FFXIV as an MMO doesn't have to strictly follow other MMOs concept of endgame, however the term endgame as an MMO term is used the same for ALL MMOs. FFXIV included. It is not special and does not get special consideration. And yes it is a game concept, but relates only to specific games, it has a specific meaning in chess and it has a specific meaning in MMOs. Look up the meaning in the Cambridge dictionary and they only apply it to chess. Look up the definition in Merriam Webster and they apply it only to chess. It is not a general term used in all games - you don't say you approach the endgame in solitaire. You don't say you approach the endgame in Go Fish. It is also not a FFXIV specific term that has a meaning unique to FFXIV.

In chess it is when few pieces remain on the board but the game can still go on for some time. The endgame can last 100+ moves. The endgame can last hours. You wouldn't say that's the final stage, except in chess it has a specific meaning relating to the number of pieces where as final often relates to time. In MMOs it is when you have finished leveling content and are doing max level content, but the game can still go on for some time. It has a specific meaning relating to leveling.

When somebody talks about endgame they are talking about the same thing across the MMO spectrum. So when somebody says the game lacks endgame, it is 100% not valid to apply a unique definition to FFXIV and say "of course it has endgame", that's called being disingenuous. Now you can say it refers to the second definition of endgame, which merriam webster defines as the final stages of anything. However, since we're in an MMO forum talking about MMOs, and the OP specifically clarified it to mean max level, common sense would dictate we're talking about endgame the way it's used for MMOs.

So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

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This 100% voices my thoughts as well...alot of this thread has been people dancing around the real issue when in my honest opinion it has been crystal clear.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

cut due to forum restriction

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Yes, there is a special meaning when it comes to chess, but there is also a generic meaning. You don't have to apply the word to every game, but if you do apply it to a game, there is still a relationship between the generic meaning and the special meaning for that particular game. Even the special meaning for chess still fits the generic meaning. And that's the point. You apply the meaning to a game, not a genre. Chess is a board game, but the meaning of endgame for chess doesn't necessarily make sense if applied to another board game.

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So while FFXIV doesn't have to follow other MMOs concepts of endgame, if they come up with something different you can't call it endgame. Fishing isn't endgame. Gold saucer isn't endgame. Hunting down most glamor isn't endgame. And when someone says "boy this game lacks endgame" you don't get to point to any of those activities and call it that. Because you'd be wrong.

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Well, agreed there because none of those fits any reasonable definition of endgame for FFXIV. Not every content is endgame content, otherwise endgame loses its meaning entirely.

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Your second definition of endgame is false. It does not apply in any MMO game, FFXIV included. You can't do endgame content on a job that isn't maxed, and yes it is off topic because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People need to stop making up definitions.

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Either you're misreading what I said, or you're applying how endgame works in a game that doesn't work like FFXIV to FFXIV. If it's content that requires you to finish the x.0 MSQ to unlock, meaning your character has to reach level cap with at least one combat job before you can even begin that content, how can it not be considered endgame? Again, the only reason would be if you're applying how endgame works in another game to FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

Exactly! Take WoW for example.. I never really found farming azerite or world quests to be "thrilling". But i was kept busy and entertained.

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From what I hear you are in a very small minority if you found azerite anything more than tolerable. Many would say "entertained" is a strong word for that and world quests you can do in your sleep. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

The FFXIV devs aren't like the WoW devs. They do not expect you to and do not want you to play only this game all the time. They have said they want their players to be able to keep up to date with the content without sacrificing time spent on other games or other activities.

After sometimes needing to treat WoW like a job, I welcomed the more laid back pace FFXIV demands as a minimum to keep up with content. I don't feel like I'm going to fall behind if I do not want to or cannot play the game for a few days. I can take a short trip somewhere without worrying about being able to cap weekly stuff on time before the next lockout because it can easily be done in just two days. I do log in nearly every day, but I enjoy the freedom of not needing to.

Also FFXIV has never been all about end-game. It's a Final Fantasy, which means the journey matters just as much as the destination.

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Originally Posted by linay

Yes, there is a special meaning when it comes to chess, but there is also a generic meaning. You don't have to apply the word to every game, but if you do apply it to a game, there is still a relationship between the generic meaning and the special meaning for that particular game. Even the special meaning for chess still fits the generic meaning.

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There doesn't have to be and no it doesn't. Specific communities will develop their own lingo, and that lingo may have very different meanings than the colloquial. Here's some examples:

A walk in baseball is the act of being gifted first base after 4 pitches arrived outside of the strike zone. How does this line up with the colloquial meaning of the word, especially if the batter jogged to first base?

Walking in cricket is leaving the field without being given out by the umpire, you don't have to actually 'walk' off the field.

Being knocked out in boxing can mean being unable to get up after 10 seconds, a meaning much more synonymous to being "knocked down".

And someone sitting through hours of an endgame in chess may not believe the endgame represents the final stages of anything.

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Originally Posted by linay

And that's the point. You apply the meaning to a game, not a genre. Chess is a board game, but the meaning of endgame for chess doesn't necessarily make sense if applied to another board game.

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In some cases yes, in some cases no. Communities develop a language, and if the community in question represents a genre then the lingo they develop will represent a genre. If the community in question represents a game, then the lingo in question will represent a game.

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Originally Posted by linay

Either you're misreading what I said, or you're applying how endgame works in a game that doesn't work like FFXIV to FFXIV. If it's content that requires you to finish the x.0 MSQ to unlock, meaning your character has to reach level cap with at least one combat job before you can even begin that content, how can it not be considered endgame? Again, the only reason would be if you're applying how endgame works in another game to FFXIV.

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The MMO community developed their specific meaning of endgame to be relevant for MMOs. FFXIV is an MMO. The term works fine in FFXIV, meaning it represents a concept that is specific to MMOs and that concept can be represented by a single word.

Endgame when related to MMOs means max level content. If you think otherwise then you're wrong, it's that simple. If you're leveling another job you are not participating in max level content. You are participating in leveling content.

Actually, just call your idea post-story content. That's far more accurate.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Actually, just call your idea post-story content. That's far more accurate.

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Well, considering the MSQ is the only required and central content in this game, anything post story is endgame.

Played WoW for 8+ years. Played FF since launch. Would I love more bosses? Sure. But what is here is challenging enough for my group of friends in our static and I to have a blast with. Yes, does WoW provide more ways to work on endgame day after day? Sure. But with BFA, how much of that honestly feels compelling, rewarding, and fun? Just more M+ and AP grinds just to stay current with the raid and then the whole randomness of M+ and that community.

FF's shouldn't be seen as a detriment because you can *finish* it and actually play other games, relax, or wait for Ultimate. There's a reason I'm playing FF full time now despite WoW having more content.

I watched the FFXIVARR documentary last night and the director/producer said he doesn't want to create a game where you feel pressured to log in every day. He is ok with you just coming back to the game every time there is a patch/expansion with stuff you want, play through it and go chill, cause people have lives and he doesn't want the game to get in the way of that.

And thank god for that. Last thing i'd want is that cancerous AP system that WoW has. I hate it with a passion. I literally feel like i'm in a hamster wheel. It is so slow and unrewarding and it made me burn out on Legion. No to AP systems. Worst system ever.

If you make an end-game system, please make something like SWTOR's crates of goodies. It's a complementary gear acquisition method + cosmetics.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

I wish for content to have more longevity rather than “it’s so easy you blow through it in an hour and then only left to grind it each week for x”. The devs work really hard, and I just feel like things could stand to be made enjoyable for longer than the extreme short term. Will the general content ever be like this? Probably not, but I wish the high end could be at least. How? I dunno. I would like at least one extra boss, but otherwise I dunno.

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Personally, it would probably take more than a boss or two for it to be enjoyable for more than the short term. But I quoted this spot for a different reason. People keep bringing up the point of the devs wanting us to be able to take breaks and play other games and not end up feeling behind, which is great, but oddly enough one of the things that gets people to trend to not taking breaks is things like weekly caps. You miss a week of play currently your out 450 tomestones worth of gear, and 1 edens worth of drops permanently. The more weekly caps there are, and the more important to progress they are, the more punishing a break is. This is a big part of why raiders made static raid groups and set static raid times in order to ensure they were clearing the content in its weekly cap.

So forgive me if I don't fully buy into the "Devs want us to feel like can take a break" argument for lack of endgame content as long as weekly caps exist. It's a great sentiment to have, but I'd also like devs that would leave us the option to pour in hundreds of hours of farming the current endgame in one week if we so choose. As ultimately its our time to decide how to spend. The devs can say they want us to take breaks as much as they want, but the weekly gate on certain endgame content gear points to them also wanting us to play regularly.

And before it is brought up, yes I do understand one of the main purposes of a weekly cap is to slow down the consumption of content, it's just it also has the side effect of creating the feeling of not being able to take a break if used too much or in the wrong spots.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Personally, it would probably take more than a boss or two for it to be enjoyable for more than the short term. But I quoted this spot for a different reason. People keep bringing up the point of the devs wanting us to be able to take breaks and play other games and not end up feeling behind, which is great, but oddly enough one of the things that gets people to trend to not taking breaks is things like weekly caps. You miss a week of play currently your out 450 tomestones worth of gear, and 1 edens worth of drops permanently. The more weekly caps there are, and the more important to progress they are, the more punishing a break is. This is a big part of why raiders made static raid groups and set static raid times in order to ensure they were clearing the content in its weekly cap.

So forgive me if I don't fully buy into the "Devs want us to feel like can take a break" argument for lack of endgame content as long as weekly caps exist. It's a great sentiment to have, but I'd also like devs that would leave us the option to pour in hundreds of hours of farming the current endgame in one week if we so choose. As ultimately its our time to decide how to spend. The devs can say they want us to take breaks as much as they want, but the weekly gate on certain endgame content gear points to them also wanting us to play regularly.

And before it is brought up, yes I do understand one of the main purposes of a weekly cap is to slow down the consumption of content, it's just it also has the side effect of creating the feeling of not being able to take a break if used too much or in the wrong spots.

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Because even with weekly cap, some people still run out of things to do, either because they don't care about gear past clearing the content (they'll just get HQ crafted gear next tier anyway or quickly farm the gear once the cap is lifted) or because they finished the weekly cap and have nothing to do afterward (either for the rest of the week or, if they completely finished gearing up, for the rest of the tier).

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Originally Posted by linay

Because even with weekly cap, some people still run out of things to do, either because they don't care about gear past clearing the content (they'll just get HQ crafted gear next tier anyway or quickly farm the gear once the cap is lifted) or because they finished the weekly cap and have nothing to do afterward (either for the rest of the week or, if they completely finished gearing up, for the rest of the tier).

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And that is perfectly fine, just as is the suggestion that more could be done regarding end game content.

Everyone is going to consume content at different rates. And some have different tastes in content. But between this thread and the dungeon design one, its pretty clear to me that there is a demand for more challenging and varied battle content across all difficulty tiers, as well as those that would like a more robust endgame scene. Which both could be addressed together.

While many may be happy with the current state of the game, ARR's initial release felt more robust to me on this front. People are willing to give the devs time to figure out the best way to develop a robust endgame for XIV, hence the thread, but eventually their patience will run out, or competition will beat SE to the punch. Time isn't always in the Dev's favor.

Edit: Should also note that a persons speed of content consumption itself is not indicative of a lack of content. Just that those that consume content faster will encounter a lack of content faster. The two are not directly related beyond the fact they both deal with content. IE the book War and Peace has the same amount of content irregardless of if it takes you one day or one year to read it. So people consuming all of XIV's content in one day or one month is not the underlying issue. Its the total amount of content available to fill a specific area of game play that some feel is lacking.