*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

VENAT IS A HERETIC

https://i.imgur.com/SQl7k1A_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

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When someone decides it’s time for the sundered to get sundered:

https://i.imgur.com/DyMBeL1_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/NNulZdR_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

You dare turn this into a meme thread!?

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Continuously sacrificing beings to feed Zodiac is in and of itself an evil and hostile act something that the ancients would have been highly against, which means they would have been betraying their own tenents.

Doubt I'm adding much, but in character it would make zero sense for us to side with Emet. The Warrior of Light wouldn't condemn everyone they know and love to lives of misery and death to bring back a society from the past, not to mention they wouldn't subject all those other shards to suffering and death for it. They may be the reincarnation of Azem, but they are their own person with their own history and feelings, and after all the hell they've gone through for their world, they wouldn't just throw it away and condemn millions for a theoretically better society they've had no part in.

People who say that we should be able to join Emet speak from a place of emotional distance from the world. It's just fiction, so it's easy to say "Yes, lets team up with the villain whose plan involves mass genocide". I acknowledge I'm also speaking from a place of distance, but I'm just thinking about how our character ingame would feel. And sure there's room for roleplay, but I just don't think it make sense narratively for the WoL to even consider siding with Emet.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Doubt I'm adding much, but in character it would make zero sense for us to side with Emet. The Warrior of Light wouldn't condemn everyone they know and love to lives of misery and death to bring back a society from the past, not to mention they wouldn't subject all those other shards to suffering and death for it. They may be the reincarnation of Azem, but they are their own person with their own history and feelings, and after all the hell they've gone through for their world, they wouldn't just throw it away and condemn millions for a theoretically better society they've had no part in.

People who say that we should be able to join Emet speak from a place of emotional distance from the world. It's just fiction, so it's easy to say "Yes, lets team up with the villain whose plan involves mass genocide". I acknowledge I'm also speaking from a place of distance, but I'm just thinking about how our character ingame would feel. And sure there's room for roleplay, but I just don't think it make sense narratively for the WoL to even consider siding with Emet.

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I mean, we side with Venat and she committed mass genocide and her whole plan and even backup plan resulted in mass genocide. Pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Doubt I'm adding much, but in character it would make zero sense for us to side with Emet. The Warrior of Light wouldn't condemn everyone they know and love to lives of misery and death to bring back a society from the past, not to mention they wouldn't subject all those other shards to suffering and death for it. They may be the reincarnation of Azem, but they are their own person with their own history and feelings, and after all the hell they've gone through for their world, they wouldn't just throw it away and condemn millions for a theoretically better society they've had no part in.

People who say that we should be able to join Emet speak from a place of emotional distance from the world. It's just fiction, so it's easy to say "Yes, lets team up with the villain whose plan involves mass genocide". I acknowledge I'm also speaking from a place of distance, but I'm just thinking about how our character ingame would feel. And sure there's room for roleplay, but I just don't think it make sense narratively for the WoL to even consider siding with Emet.

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the thing about the continual sacrifice was that it was what they suggested doing and not that that they actually did it. it was likely the thing that Elidbus refered to in 5.3 "divided over the fate of a star, always fleeting but not this time." I think that Elidibus extracted himself from Zodiark specifically to mediate and find a solution. Given time this is likely to have resulted in them Not sacrificing more given the kind of people they are portrayed as in Amaurot.

I can only assume the reason it didnt come to fruition is because of Venat becoming Hydealyn and sundering before they even gave mediation a chance. Hell i think the only reason Zodiark was bound at all was likely due to Elidibus extracting himself. This also explains his bitterness towards Venat in endwalker.

The other thing to note, is that to given that all life that was due to be sacrificed to restore the original souls that created Zodiark was prior to the sundering and that the ancients are the only confimed lifeforms on Etheirys prior to sundering that would indicate they were not going to sacrifice people but rather the creations. Because if they sacrifised those left behind to reclaim the original souls, then in effect they would only be doing the same as they did initially. So the question then becomes, what exactly where they going to sacrifice?

I suspect it was creations or the offspring of creations.

I also think that seeing the initial sacrifice as evil is misguided. These people agreed to sacrifice themselves to save their people. There is no evidence to suggest they were forced only did so willingly. I cant honestly say sacrifice is right, but equally if it is willing done because there is no other choice then the individuals choice to sacrifice themself is not evil. It should be applauded.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Doubt I'm adding much, but in character it would make zero sense for us to side with Emet.

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This is an mmorpg, we are the WoL and therefore we decide who we are, the WoL is not some independent character so from my perspective it makes absolute sense to join Emet Selch.

Another thing people forget is that they keep talking about "genocide" while Emet Selch did say that by perpetuating this farce you are only causing more destruction and suffering overall than just one quick worldwide snap destruction and that is a fact, the overall suffering and destruction would be far less if the Ancients were able to return by causing those rejoinings and that says a lot.


And how about the Ancients? Seems to me that people have completely forgotten and chose to justify the genocide of the ancients at the hands of Hydaelin which destroyed their entire civilization which was objectively superior, immortality, ability to create concepts, those are objectively superior traits and you cant argue against that.
It is like being a god and then turned into a mere mortal without any special powers, that is literal degradation.

So what we have now is people defending the genocide of the ancients and perpetuating a far worse and inferior world that is filled with destruction and suffering.

It would be similar like real life, the planet and species are a disaster, yet people due to their attachment would be willing to protect this war ridden planet(and not referring to just the current popular one) that might soon be uninhabitable due to climate change rather than see it gone to bring back an objectively superior world, because again, the ancients are not some delusional people like some IRL people who obsess over "le good old days", the ancients were objectively superior so you would be arguing against a better world simply because you are used to this disaster of a world.

And let's be honest, it is illogical to assume that Ancients wouldnt have figured out the problem considering how research focused they were and how zodiarc protected the planet for literally thousands of years and would for many more.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Another thing people forget is that they keep talking about "genocide" while Emet Selch did say that by perpetuating this farce you are only causing more destruction and suffering overall than just one quick worldwide snap destruction and that is a fact, the overall suffering and destruction would be far less if the Ancients were able to return by causing those rejoinings and that says a lot.

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Is the prevention of suffering the ultimate goal of justice in your view?

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

And how about the Ancients? Seems to me that people have completely forgotten and chose to justify the genocide of the ancients at the hands of Hydaelin which destroyed their entire civilization which was objectively superior, immortality, ability to create concepts, those are objectively superior traits and you cant argue against that.
It is like being a god and then turned into a mere mortal without any special powers, that is literal degradation.

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A degradation for sure, but stories and myths are full of examples of gods becoming mortal, and in so doing gaining from their lowered status.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

So what we have now is people defending the genocide of the ancients and perpetuating a far worse and inferior world that is filled with destruction and suffering.

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Worse? Debatable but I think that’s incredibly subjective and thus prone to personal bias. Inferior? Now there’s where I have to voice disagreement. Having greater power and lifespans is not the only goal for a species I don’t think. Questions like is the world just? Is it a world of virtue? Do people value the good? Will this society even last? These are also important questions I feel. A world of immortal demons (hypothetical not saying the Ancients are this) would be an inferior world to me.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

It would be similar like real life, the planet and species are a disaster, yet people due to their attachment would be willing to protect this war ridden planet(and not referring to just the current popular one) that might soon be uninhabitable due to climate change rather than see it gone to bring back an objectively superior world, because again, the ancients are not some delusional people like some IRL people who obsess over "le good old days", the ancients were objectively superior so you would be arguing against a better world simply because you are used to this disaster of a world.

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But in truth I think the metaphor is reversed. It’s the Sundered that have the opportunity to last for much longer on a star not threatened my Meteion, and the Ancients who die to their attachment refused to change.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

And let's be honest, it is illogical to assume that Ancients wouldnt have figured out the problem considering how research focused they were and how zodiarc protected the planet for literally thousands of years and would for many more.

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I do think they would’ve figured out a half solution. Creating beings that possess a will and low aetheric density, the two requirements to manipulate Dynamis, is a distinct possibility for them. The question then, is could they come up with a way of imparting the hope and perseverance needed to progress through Ultima Thule. That I feel is much more difficult and fraught with moral dilemmas.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Is the prevention of suffering the ultimate goal of justice in your view?

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If you care about justice you wouldnt be defending hydealin's genocide of the ancients, if you care about prevention of suffering you again cant defend Hydaelin's sundered creation that is filled with it which is far more than the sundered parodies.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

A degradation for sure, but stories and myths are full of examples of gods becoming mortal, and in so doing gaining from their lowered status.

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Unless they regained their godlike by the the end they are still inferior and many times weaker than they were before, some personal realization about life does not compensate for loss of LITERALLY godlike powers.

Why? It doesnt matter how smart or wise you feel you are, if you can get casually smitten out of existence by a being with magical powers that lives forever you simply cannot compete because you cannot attain that level of power, especially considering your extremely limited lifespan.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Worse? Debatable

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World is filled with conflict and people fighting and hating each other unlike the far more united society of the ancients who even when they had disagreements it didnt result in cycles of war and death and hatred.
That is because just like real life the fact remains, he who has power can do whatever to the one who does not, which often leads to things like Garleans who even without Emet Selch would inevitably try to get revenge for the crimes they suffered in the past if they ever found a power, so would the beast tribes and many other nations

And if we are to be honest, this is a video game, in reality you would never just barge into Ishgard, a place where the populace lives under huge delusions and cult level historical knowledge and suddenly make everyone friends with their enemies, fundamental delusions such as those take GENERATIONS to be removed who suffered unjust acts in their relatively recent history.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

But in truth I think the metaphor is reversed. It’s the Sundered that have the opportunity to last for much longer on a star not threatened my Meteion, and the Ancients who die to their attachment refused to change.

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And that is a statement with no evidence, the Ancients were a heavy research focused civilization, meaning if a change was needed they would accept it, just like they accepted sacrificing half their number to protect the star.

People need to stop confusing "we need to build things back after a worldwide catastrophy" with "attachments and refusal to change".

If you home gets devastated you dont just accept it and stay homeless, you try to build it back up to how it was with possibly some improvements

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I do think they would’ve figured out a half solution.

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Immortality, godlike powers of creation and having thousands of years do make that a certainty, they might have even found a superior solution.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Why? It doesnt matter how smart or wise you feel you are, if you can get casually smitten out of existence by a being with magical powers that lives forever you simply cannot compete because you cannot attain that level of power, especially considering your extremely limited lifespan.

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I mean, eh? The Warrior of Light was able to battle Venat evenly in a friendly spar as well as triumph over several prototypes of Lahabrea's masterworks in Pandaemonium. The Warrior of Light (with of lots of help) also triumphs over multiple unsundered beings, including Emet-Selch and Hesperos. Saying that any unsundered could just "smite" a sundered being with a wave of their hand is overstating things a little.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

World is filled with conflict and people fighting and hating each other unlike the far more united society of the ancients who even when they had disagreements it didnt result in cycles of war and death and hatred.
That is because just like real life the fact remains, he who has power can do whatever to the one who does not, which often leads to things like Garleans who even without Emet Selch would inevitably try to get revenge for the crimes they suffered in the past if they ever found a power, so would the beast tribes and many other nations

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We don't know what life is like outside of Amaurot and we only have Emet's (heavily biased) narration to go by. The idea that the unsundered world is bereft of any and all conflict is also inherently false, as the ancients developed weaponry, martial arts, and incredibly powerful combat and creation magics. These things do not come into existence in a world free of conflict of any sort. Even Hythlodaeus, who calls himself "pedestrian" by the ancients' standards, is a skilled archer able to use techniques akin to a master bard.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

And if we are to be honest, this is a video game, in reality you would never just barge into Ishgard, a place where the populace lives under huge delusions and cult level historical knowledge and suddenly make everyone friends with their enemies, fundamental delusions such as those take GENERATIONS to be removed who suffered unjust acts in their relatively recent history.

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We didn't "barge" into Ishgard. We were invited as a ward of House Fortemps thanks to Haurchefant's glowing commendation and Edmont's trouble saying "no" to Haurchefant. Even then, WoL is shown repeatedly to be incredibly social, possessing an "irrepressible aura of reliability" that gets people to trust them. Alphinaud and Tataru are also fast talkers and charismatic speakers, while House Fortemps and the Scions' previous dealing with Aymeric give the heroes a direct line to the highest ranking individuals in the Temple Knights. And saying, "Well, in reality..." only goes so far in an inherently fictional and idealistic universe. Otherwise Nanamo, Kan-E, Aymeric, Raubahn, Lyse, Hien, and Merlwyb would not all be compassionate and competent world leaders striving to work together in service of their people.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

If you care about justice you wouldnt be defending hydealin's genocide of the ancients, if you care about prevention of suffering you again cant defend Hydaelin's sundered creation that is filled with it which is far more than the sundered parodies.

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Moral disagreements are tricky. I think we can disagree on what is the right course of action without being dismissive.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Unless they regained their godlike by the the end they are still inferior and many times weaker than they were before, some personal realization about life does not compensate for loss of LITERALLY godlike powers.

Why? It doesnt matter how smart or wise you feel you are, if you can get casually smitten out of existence by a being with magical powers that lives forever you simply cannot compete because you cannot attain that level of power, especially considering your extremely limited lifespan.

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So the only thing that matters is being powerful? There’s no end goal behind that? Might makes right and all?

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

World is filled with conflict and people fighting and hating each other unlike the far more united society of the ancients who even when they had disagreements it didnt result in cycles of war and death and hatred.
That is because just like real life the fact remains, he who has power can do whatever to the one who does not, which often leads to things like Garleans who even without Emet Selch would inevitably try to get revenge for the crimes they suffered in the past if they ever found a power, so would the beast tribes and many other nations

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This is a pretty pessimistic view of humanity I will say. If the only thing preventing someone from being a monster is getting what he wants, then I’d say they are a child throwing a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

And if we are to be honest, this is a video game, in reality you would never just barge into Ishgard, a place where the populace lives under huge delusions and cult level historical knowledge and suddenly make everyone friends with their enemies, fundamental delusions such as those take GENERATIONS to be removed who suffered unjust acts in their relatively recent history.

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I do remember the game going to the great lengths to show how difficult the change was so I’m not sure this is an accurate description.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

And that is a statement with no evidence, the Ancients were a heavy research focused civilization, meaning if a change was needed they would accept it, just like they accepted sacrificing half their number to protect the star.

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They would accept being Sundered?

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

People need to stop confusing "we need to build things back after a worldwide catastrophy" with "attachments and refusal to change".

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I would suggest telling the Ancients and the writers that then friend. They seem to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

If you home gets devastated you dont just accept it and stay homeless, you try to build it back up to how it was with possibly some improvements

Immortality, godlike powers of creation and having thousands of years do make that a certainty, they might have even found a superior solution.

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Sure rebuilding is important. But so is remembering the event and trying your best to help others. The third sacrifice, as well as the statements of the Ancients through ShB and EW do not indicate that they were doing that.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

the Ancients were a heavy research focused civilization,

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Were they? I mean, to a degree I think so, but I feel like as a society they were much more interested in philosphy and aesthetics than pure research. Rather than seeking knowledge for its own sake, it seems like they mostly researched for the purposes of improving thier star (or at least, thier idea of what improvements to the star ought to look like,)

I'm not saying they didn't do research, just that it was secondary to the philosophic and aesthetic sides of thier culture. After all, if they were really research focused they would have more curiosity about dynames in the first plaxe, instead of it being a random academic footnote, and Hermes wouldn't have been the only person ever involved in a space program.

This is an MMORPG, sure. But if you're 'role-playing' a character as the term suggests, then you act in accordance with what that character would do in that circumstance, not what you want said character to do.

The reason why Azem fought and killed Emet was because Emet's plan mandated not only Azem's death but the death of everyone and everything that they've ever known and loved. Even if you really like Emet's character and prefer his ideological stance as an audience member, it really doesn't make sense for your character to meekly let Emet kill them in order to achieve it. That's OOC. Azem's going to fight for survival, even if it means having to fight an misguided old friend in a battle to the death in the process.

Everyone has their own ideologies on what would make a better world. According to the Endsinger, there'd be no more suffering if she brought an end to all life. Truly a superior state of things! Emet thought the world would be a better place if he sacrificed 13 worlds full of people to force a hard reset back to zero on the Source, allowing him to repopulate his Lego Amaurot with new people bearing the repaired souls of his dead friends. Azem thought the world would be a better place if we just punch out all the megalomaniacs so that everyone can just get back to eating delicious polygonal grapes. We all had our parts to play. And when the dust settled, we're here, and they're not. It is what it is. All you can do is to heed his last words and to remember.

https://i.imgur.com/L4mXVtSh.png

Good night, sweet prince. And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

So the only thing that matters is being powerful? There’s no end goal behind that? Might makes right and all?

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Might does not make right, but might doesnt give a damn about what is right because it does what it wants and cant be stopped by anything other than an equal force of often might.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

If the only thing preventing someone from being a monster is getting what he wants, then I’d say they are a child throwing a tantrum.

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I was referring to individuals who dont moan or cry about fate and simply find a way to get what they want, in any way possible, they are not limited by "morality" unlike some therefore they have more tools to get what they want.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I do remember the game going to the great lengths to show how difficult the change was so I’m not sure this is an accurate description.

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I wont disagree but it is limited by its medium as a video game, it needs to say a story, it cannot wait decades to show the end result and slow progress since well, not really possible.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

They would accept being Sundered?

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Accept losing their godlike powers? Accepting dying so early you barely discover a small of reality?
Again the objective value of such powers is enormous, it isnt like you lost a finger

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I would suggest telling the Ancients and the writers that then friend. They seem to disagree.

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Well yeah, they wanted to tell a somewhat satisfying story to most so of course they did, I wasnt a big fun of the unrealistic happy ending either though the journey was done quite well.
Still dont feel Emet was depicted like he should considering the SHB baseline.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Sure rebuilding is important. But so is remembering the event and trying your best to help others. The third sacrifice, as well as the statements of the Ancients through ShB and EW do not indicate that they were doing that.

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The goal is rebuilding, they arent gonna forget the final days obviously since it would be a subject worth researching.

Another issue I have with the writing, they took the ancients from an ultra honestly overpowered position and made them desperate and easily panicked people who suddenly stopped caring about everything and obsessed over zodiarc sacrifices, like going from a highly intelligent species to a highly emotional species.

Like I am not against what they were planning, but it did feel extremely rushed and emotional rather than carefully planned.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

I mean, eh? The Warrior of Light was able to battle Venat evenly in a friendly spar as well as triumph over several prototypes of Lahabrea's masterworks in Pandaemonium. The Warrior of Light (with of lots of help) also triumphs over multiple unsundered beings, including Emet-Selch and Hesperos. Saying that any unsundered could just "smite" a sundered being with a wave of their hand is overstating things a little.

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I mean let's be honest, it is a video game and the good guy has to win somehow no matter how impossible the odds.

And if we are to follow the lore it would be as Emet said, "we would be as leaves in the wind" compared to him power wise since he is unsundered even when he was emotional unbalanced due to you having the soul of Azem.

Though let's not forget hydaelin's blessing since she is a primal of ancient time she must have considerable power to give so that could possibly balance the scales a bit, even Venat says she sees her blessing on you so it is the only way I am choosing to believe we are able to contest against unsundered individuals.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

We don't know what life is like outside of Amaurot and we only have Emet's (heavily biased) narration to go by.

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This feels like the same argument before shb and sometimes even during Shb "Well we dont know, Zodiarc might be some l33t ultra evil literally the devil primal that has totally compelled Emet do and believe all the things he said" even though we knew Primals dont have a personal will, their will is the purpose they were created for.
At this point it is just extreme speculation to justify your position

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

After all, if they were really research focused they would have more curiosity about dynamis in the first place, instead of it being a random academic footnote, and Hermes wouldn't have been the only person ever involved in a space program.

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I would assume that is because at that current moment they knew very little about dynamis and they were busy researching things that are far more tangible and will lead to a breakthrough quicker.

In time though dynamis would get its turn when the more high priority subjects were researched.
And hermes definitely seemed to be a bit damaged considering he somehow decided that the view of species extremely different and in different situations or worlds matters to him, rather than having the ability to hold his own view he needed support from space...

[QUOTE=Lyth;5958070]This is an MMORPG, sure. But if you're 'role-playing' a character as the term suggests, then you act in accordance with what that character would do in that circumstance, not what you want said character to do.[quote]
The term roleplay does not mean you have to play somebody other than yourself, you can very easily "roleplay" yourself in that world/universe/environement etc

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Another issue I have with the writing, they took the ancients from an ultra honestly overpowered position and made them desperate and easily panicked people who suddenly stopped caring about everything and obsessed over zodiarc sacrifices, like going from a highly intelligent species to a highly emotional species.

Like I am not against what they were planning, but it did feel extremely rushed and emotional rather than carefully planned.

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But the ancients aren't robots. Emet-Selch's phantom Amaurot is explicitly his nostalgia-ridden intepretation of his people as infinitely benevolent, wise, and compassionate creatures. In truth, they had all the foibles of the "lesser" beings they reincarnated into including a very understandable fear of the skies turning red, meteors dropping out of the sky, and their creations turned into Lovecraftian abominations.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I was referring to individuals who dont moan or cry about fate and simply find a way to get what they want, in any way possible, they are not limited by "morality" unlike some therefore they have more tools to get what they want.

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So you're simultaneously referring to the ancients as morally and intellectually superior beings while also saying that they should resort to any sort of morally depraved means to get what they want? The ancients were constantly bemoaning their fate and could not fathom a way to get out of their predicament other than Zodiark. Venat's fear is that they would end up sacrificing themselves and producing a society not unlike the Plenty, which summarily offed itself once it ran out of things to do.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I mean let's be honest, it is a video game and the good guy has to win somehow no matter how impossible the odds.

And if we are to follow the lore it would be as Emet said, "we would be as leaves in the wind" compared to him power wise since he is unsundered even when he was emotional unbalanced due to you having the soul of Azem.

Though let's not forget hydaelin's blessing since she is a primal of ancient time she must have considerable power to give so that could possibly balance the scales a bit, even Venat says she sees her blessing on you so it is the only way I am choosing to believe we are able to contest against unsundered individuals.

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Yes, we had help, but we still won. Emet brought his full strength to bear against us in the final battle and we won. Barely, but a victory is a victory even if it was a collaborative effort.

Elidibus also freaks out upon seeing Zenos, a sundered being who should be swatted like a fly by your logic, and hightails it rather than fighting him despite possessing Zenos' superior body. So the Unsundered, while extremely powerful, are not insurmountable.

Besides, we've triumphed over other unsundered beings of godlike power before like Nidhogg and Omega (again with help, but we beat them, with Hraesvelgr noting that it was the WoL's skill that won the day, his eye just evened the power levels). Being unsundered is not an automatic, "I am always better than you."

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

This feels like the same argument before shb and sometimes even during Shb "Well we dont know, Zodiarc might be some l33t ultra evil literally the devil primal that has totally compelled Emet do and believe all the things he said" even though we knew Primals dont have a personal will, their will is the purpose they were created for.
At this point it is just extreme speculation to justify your position

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It's not even just speculation though. For as much as Emet-Selch calls Amaurot a paradise, there are clear and glaring problems with its society. The emphasis on conformity and working toward the benefit of the whole at the expense of the individual means that people who don't fit in feel they have nowhere to go. Hermes is tortured by how he seems to be the only one with empathy for the creations he and his researchers create and unmake on a regular basis. Erichthonios constantly feels overshadowed by his parents and Hesperos mocks him for being inept compared to them.

The ancients' extreme lack of empathy for "lesser" life is part of what set forth the Final Days in earnest, triggering Hermes' desperation to find answers and pushing him over the edge entirely when Emet-Selch asks, "Who are you to judge whether we live or die?" when the ancients did just that on a regular basis. One FATE chain has an Elpis researcher conjure life just for you to slaughter it as a means of deriving some entertainment and inspiration.

The ancients were also suffering from creative sterility and literally could not think of ways of solving their problems other than through their creation magics. In Elpis, WoL has to explain adaptations they've encountered in their travels to solve the issues with the Elpis' researchers creations that they could not themselves. One researcher even says that she's been holed up in Amaurot so long that she had no idea such things could exist. Emet-Selch is blindsided by G'raha's efforts to avert the 8UC because the idea of time travel and traveling across the rift without sacrificing your physical form were all beyond the Ascians.

Amaurot isn't perfect. Chances are the world outside of it is also just as flawed.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I would assume that is because at that current moment they knew very little about dynamis and they were busy researching things that are far more tangible and will lead to a breakthrough quicker.

In time though dynamis would get its turn when the more high priority subjects were researched.
And hermes definitely seemed to be a bit damaged considering he somehow decided that the view of species extremely different and in different situations or worlds matters to him, rather than having the ability to hold his own view he needed support from space...

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NO ONE was researching dynamis though. Hermes is literally the only man with a working understanding of it beyond the fact that it exists. Even Venat and Emet-Selch, two of the most accomplished and intelligent members of the Convocation, hadn't heard of it before Hermes explained it to them. Hermes abandoned his research in his grief over "Meteion's destruction". All of his efforts into facilitating Zodiark were looking into aether currents, not dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

NO ONE was researching dynamis though. Hermes is literally the only man with a working understanding of it beyond the fact that it exists. Even Venat and Emet-Selch, two of the most accomplished and intelligent members of the Convocation, hadn't heard of it before Hermes explained it to them. Hermes abandoned his research in his grief over "Meteion's destruction". All of his efforts into facilitating Zodiark were looking into aether currents, not dynamis.

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Venat says she has heard of it, but in the same way a real life person would be aware of the concept of "Dark Matter" IE without any real depth of knowledge regarding what it actually is and can do. Which makes sense, nobody in the real world has any actual idea of what Dark Matter actually is.

I really struggle to believe that the Ancients couldn't have figured out a way to combat the Endsinger if they had actually known what was going on and that dynamis was the element responsible for causing the Final Days.

Looking at the circumstances under which people were turning in the present time, many managed to overcome it simply through possessing a strong will to live, and if the Ancients hadn't already possessed such a will they would've all simply gone mad and died off before they summoned Zodiark. There is no indication that experiencing suffering and hardship was essential to overcoming despair, and in fact many of the people in the role quests ended up turning specifically because they couldn't get over the trauma they experienced previously, so it comes across as an outstandingly weak line of reasoning to me.

The more important aspect was being capable of manipulating dynamis through a lower aetherial density, and that could've been achieved by proxy with creations, having some bold Ancients like the current Azem volunteer to be sundered, and other unexplored avenues, but alas, they were never permitted such an opportunity.

We still don't really know the specific circumstances around the original Final Days, though. The Final Days didn't manifest in Thavnair until Khalzahl transformed. Only after did the skies burn and people started transforming en masse. We don't know anything about Amaurot's index case, aside from the recollection of a 'terrible cry from within the earth'. Without that critical bit of information, how could anyone put a stop to it? The Amaurotians didn't have space travel; Meteion was their first foray into space. Even had they known who the culprit was, their only choice would have been to weather the storm until the Ragnarok was invented.

What I'm especially curious to see is what the consequences are of Lahabrea's hemitheos research. If the timing is what I think it is, this is a powderkeg waiting to go off.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I really struggle to believe that the Ancients couldn't have figured out a way to combat the Endsinger if they had actually known what was going on and that dynamis was the element responsible for causing the Final Days.

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But that is something people underestimate, we are talking about IMMORTALS with the power of literal creation and thousands of years under Zodiarc's shield to find out what caused it, that means it would be almost a certainty that they could have dealt with the final days themselves. You dont even have to sunder Azem, just keep making creations with different levels of aether and observe the results, you got thousands of years to tinker with the right amount of stats etc

Sooner or later even if they didnt find anything(Which is extremely doubtful cuz people would want to research wtf caused the final days) they would send or go with their creation outside of the shield of Zodiarc for exploration purposes alone meaning they will instantly see how the song of oblivion affects their low in aether creations and instantly realize the problem remains.

Then you remember that the Ancients were not affected by the song due to how dense in aether they were, meaning they could literally just go to the source of the song themselves and slap the dumb bird out of existence or throw some enormous aether bomb in the general area that is the source of the song if it cant be found due to how the terrain changed due to dynamis.

Unlike the frail weak sundered people of the shards that live for only a tiny fraction of the ancient's existence, the ancients got the time and power to fix any problem.

If anything the only reason the sundered defeated the endsinger is because it is a video game and the good guys gotta win no matter how ridiculously impossible the odds are.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Then you remember that the Ancients were not affected by the song due to how dense in aether they were, meaning they could literally just go to the source of the song themselves and slap the dumb bird out of existence or throw some enormous aether bomb in the general area that is the source of the song if it cant be found due to how the terrain changed due to dynamis.

Unlike the frail weak sundered people of the shards that live for only a tiny fraction of the ancient's existence, the ancients got the time and power to fix any problem.

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They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

If anything the only reason the sundered defeated the endsinger is because it is a video game and the good guys gotta win no matter how ridiculously impossible the odds are.

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"Frail, weak beings" like Zenos scared Elidibus enough to make him abandon Zenos' own "frail" body rather than face Zenos himself. "Frail, weak beings" like WoL triumphed over multiple Unsundered beings like Nidhogg, Omega, Emet-Selch, Ultima, and Elidibus. The ancients' creation magics can be considered "godlike", but they're not truly perfect, immortal beings. The ancients were flawed people who often used their powers irresponsibly and were not insurmountable. The whole point of Elpis is to show that Emet-Selch's account is being filtered through his immense sentimentality for his people in a way that covers up their flaws. Hence why the phantom Amaurot has the ancients all be mature, wise, and kind when the actual ancients were often pompous, arrogant, forgetful, and suffering from their self-imposed isolation in a way that stifled their creativity.

If your response to everything the story tells you is "la la la la Protags have PLOT ARMOR la la la la" then I don't know what to tell you other than that you're purposefully not engaging with the narrative to satisfy your headcanon.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

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Their creations weren't any more susceptible to dynamis then the sundered themselves, so I still fail to see what would keep them from engineering something that could manipulate dynamis and fight back.

It really just comes across as an element that was introduced mostly for the sake of (Unconvincingly) creating a threat that they couldn't deal with due to the intrinsic nature of their being.

Creation magic cannot be used to make a person with a soul. Meteion could experience others' emotions, being an entelechy, but they were never her own. Like the Elpis blooms, she was only a reflection of the ambient emotion, so she just ended up being a conduit that. So I wonder if you actually can make a creation that's capable of acting against the prevailing emotion (i.e. something that can interact with dynamis that can also resist being influenced by it). A spark of joy in an ocean of despair.

I think the closest that you can get is to make a hemitheos, which I suspect became the basis for Zodiark/Elidibus' later design. But I suppose we'll find out whether that's a smart idea pretty soon.

Either way, Creation magic is just one tool out of many. Remember, the Loporrits can use it as well, so it's hardly a mark of omnipotence.

Do bear in mind that some of the creatures born of creation magicks did in fact gain souls, but it wasn't because of anything the ancients did. Sometimes the planet just spontaneously hooked them up.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

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So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Creation magic cannot be used to make a person with a soul. Meteion could experience others' emotions, being an entelechy, but they were never her own. Like the Elpis blooms, she was only a reflection of the ambient emotion, so she just ended up being a conduit that. So I wonder if you actually can make a creation that's capable of acting against the prevailing emotion (i.e. something that can interact with dynamis that can also resist being influenced by it). A spark of joy in an ocean of despair.

I think the closest that you can get is to make a hemitheos, which I suspect became the basis for Zodiark/Elidibus' later design. But I suppose we'll find out whether that's a smart idea pretty soon.

Either way, Creation magic is just one tool out of many. Remember, the Loporrits can use it as well, so it's hardly a mark of omnipotence.

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That's wrong. Lupins have souls and were made by creation magick. So were Arkasoa. Hell, we even created one through alchemical processes for the Anima weapon.
They mention that any lifeform may have a soul, but they don't control which one do: it's literally just the domain of nature, and if the creation is close enough to natural, it'll get a soul. It's the difference between arcane entities and living beings.

It was stated that entities that are "self-sustaining through the laws of nature" were capable of gaining souls.

I think that would entail them being alive in the sense of needing things like air, water, and food to exist, unlike arcane entities which seem to require naught but raw aether to sustain their being.

The fact that the star is so picky about the matter to begin with really makes me feel as though it's always had a "will" of its own.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

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Meteion was not imbued with the "hope" and "will" of the ancients. She was a space probe designed to possess exceedingly little aether (even less than ours) specifically to better respond to emotions and harness dynamis so she would not need sustenance on her long space voyages. And yes, she did succumb to despair and was consumed by the negative emotions she was forced to absorb due to her uncontrollable empathic powers, resulting in her becoming the source of the Final Days and transforming other creations into terminus beasts. The science of creating entelechies was also lost when Hermes abandoned his project after "Meteion's death".

Her final plan was to silence all of creation by preventing any new life from forming, thus sparing herself the agony of people succumbing to despair. The only way she'd be able to do that from Ultima Thule is if she's gathering dynamis from the entire universe to strengthen her Song of Despair.

Also, you plan to defeat Meteion is... to create more Meteions?

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Originally Posted by Alenore

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Lv. 86 'Lives Apart':

Hermes: 'Tell me─do you know the difference between living beings and arcane entities? It is the presence of a soul.

Yet the soul isn't something you can choose to have at will. No, it manifests only in those beings whose forms adhere to the laws of creation. That can endure on their own. Beings that do not fulfill this requirement, such as those spontaneously born of magic or natural phenomena, do not have souls. No matter how much it might resemble flora or fauna, if it lacks a soul, then it is considered an arcane entity.

So you see, it is not for mankind to decide what is living. That domain lies beyond our manipulation, and it is hubris to assume otherwise.'

There is, of course, a caveat to this:

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Originally Posted by Tales from the Shadows: Through His Eyes

'Hythlodaeus stretched out a hand to the enormous gate that stood before them. Soundlessly, the towering doors swung open... and Hades found himself wincing at the ear-rending cry that emanated from within. Furrowing his brow, he stepped across the threshold to be greeted with the sight of a magnificent bird, its plumes fairly afire, circling high in the vaulted hall. Having marked the creature's undeniable beauty, it took him but another moment to identify the problem ─ an unmistakable light shining in its heart. His breath caught in his throat.

"A soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth ─ anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it ─ a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."

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Creation magic can create only vessels, not souls. Souls without a vessel can latch to an available one, which underpins Ascian bodyswaps, Voidsent summoning, the hemitheos, and likely also Zodiark's construction.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

Meteion was not imbued with the "hope" and "will" of the ancients. She was a space probe designed to possess exceedingly little aether (even less than ours) specifically to better respond to emotions and harness dynamis so she would not need sustenance on her long space voyages. And yes, she did succumb to despair and was consumed by the negative emotions she was forced to absorb due to her uncontrollable empathic powers, resulting in her becoming the source of the Final Days and transforming other creations into terminus beasts. The science of creating entelechies was also lost when Hermes abandoned his project after "Meteion's death".

Her final plan was to silence all of creation by preventing any new life from forming, thus sparing herself the agony of people succumbing to despair. The only way she'd be able to do that from Ultima Thule is if she's gathering dynamis from the entire universe to strengthen her Song of Despair.

Also, you plan to defeat Meteion is... to create more Meteions?

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The science behind entelechies was not lost, Venat just assumed Hermes wouldn't be interested in making any more after he rewrote his memory to convince himself Meteion had self-terminated. I think he would change his mind if he had actually known that dynamis was the factor behind the Final Days.

Also, Meteion was specifically designed to exchange emotion so that she could communicate with alien races without need of words, which is the critical factor that led to her going haywire. There's nothing that seems to indicate that making a creation that can manipulate dynamis without that function would be impossible as it's simply a low aether density that is needed fundamentally.

Alenore's point was that maybe they could've made entelechy specifically imbued with positive emotions that could counteract the negative ones the Endsinger was turning against the world. Heck, they might've not even needed Zodiark judging from how strong of a force the collective wills of just the Scions was in the finale and could've made some kind of entelechy barrier instead.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The science behind entelechies was not lost, Venat just assumed Hermes wouldn't be interested in making any more after he rewrote his memory to convince himself Meteion had self-terminated. I think he would change his mind if he had actually known that dynamis was the factor behind the Final Days.

Also, Meteion was specifically designed to exchange emotion so that she could communicate with alien races without need of words, which is the critical factor that led to her going haywire. There's nothing that seems to indicate that making a creation that can manipulate dynamis without that function would be impossible as it's simply a low aether density that is needed fundamentally.

Alenore's point was that maybe they could've made entelechy specifically imbued with positive emotions that could counteract the negative ones the Endsinger was turning against the world. Heck, they might've not even needed Zodiark judging from how strong of a force the collective wills of just the Scions was in the finale and could've made some kind of entelechy barrier instead.

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The only one with the expertise to create entelechies is Hermes. And if Venat told Hermes it's highly likely that he'd leap off the deep end and start sabotaging humanity's efforts to combat the Final Days.

The Scions are also sundered beings with a much stronger attunement to dynamis than the unsundered ancients. There's no guarantee that they'd even be able to render Ultima Thule inhabitable long enough for them to defeat Meteion.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

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First the problem is that at least a Entelechy like Meteion cant just be infused with one kind of emotion and be done with that. Otherwise Meteion and her sisters would have not changed after all since they were sent out by a (naive) optimistic Hermes that hoped for better answers. So as soon as these beings are outside the reach of their creators they can be changed. This is after all what happened to Meteions sisters.

And second even if they were still full of hope when reaching Ultima Thule, they would need the experience to overcome the despair of each race there. It was important who confronted the being. Would a Entelechy who might have never really suffered much really be able to understand and overcome the sorrow of the dragons? Estinien could because he himself went through something similiar.

What about the Ea? How would a Entelechy react if they found out that even the universe was finite? Meteion is still alive after 12.000 years so I guess even familiars could possibly be immortal if they survive long enough. How would such a being react when they found out that all will be gone? The scions, especially Ysthola, were able to overcome that despair because they were mortals who knew perfectly well that they will not last long.

So imo there is more to it than just either sundering some Ancients and sending them there or creating more "Meteions". They would need the experience to be able to withstand and overcome these specific despairs. After all, even we would have perished right at the start if it was not for Thancred and his will.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Alenore's point was that maybe they could've made entelechy specifically imbued with positive emotions that could counteract the negative ones the Endsinger was turning against the world. Heck, they might've not even needed Zodiark judging from how strong of a force the collective wills of just the Scions was in the finale and could've made some kind of entelechy barrier instead.

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But these Entelechy would need a huuuuuge amount of positive energy to stand any chance at all. It took a big amount of the remaining Ancients and their near inifite aether reserves to bascially buy humanity time by summoning Zodiark. After all we are talking about a really big amount of destroyed worlds full of despair that Meteion gathered.

And even if somehow the Ancients were able to create beings that could shield their planet, what would be the long term solution? Meteion would still be out there gathering despair and the created Entelechy would just need one weakness and it would be over for them.

The scions were also not that strong because of just hope but because they bascially were able to overcome the different kind of despairs that Meteion was throwing at them. If Thancred had not been with us then we would have bascially died before even stepping on Ultima Thule. If we had not Estinien, none may have overcome the despair of the dragons and so on. Hope alone did not save us there, it was the luck of having the people with the right experiences with us. And if it was not for our crystal they too would have died.

What I find absolutely hilarious about these 'What if' scenarios is that the power is entirely in the hands of the writers. If they're not interested in you saving Amaurot, then you can't and you won't. They can come up with any number of reasons why it won't work, because they set down the rules for this in-game world. It's a bit like arguing with your DM. 'Oh, you reminded Hermes' about Meteion? Tsk, tsk, shouldn't have done that, now. He's gone and betrayed you, and his creation, Zodiark, is now a blasphemy, so Amaurot still falls. Tooo bad. Want to try again? We can go at this all day.'

Lore is about understanding the world that the writers are creating, not trying to control it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What I find absolutely hilarious about these 'What if' scenarios is that the power is entirely in the hands of the writers. If they're not interested in you saving Amaurot, then you can't and you won't. They can come up with any number of reasons why it won't work, because they set down the rules for this in-game world. It's a bit like arguing with your DM. 'Oh, you reminded Hermes' about Meteion? Tsk, tsk, shouldn't have done that, now. He's gone and betrayed you, and his creation, Zodiark, is now a blasphemy, so Amaurot still falls. Tooo bad. Want to try again? We can go at this all day.'

Lore is about understanding the world that the writers are creating, not trying to control it.

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I mean...that's kind of a given, but I'm still left feeling unconvinced there was really no better option then the Sundering just because "the writers said so"; particularly when it still took significant amounts of intervention both direct and indirect on the part of the Ancients for us to succeed in the first place. A story's lore shouldn't be leaving you with feelings like that in the first place if it's well written and cohesive.

They explained enough about the nature of dynamis that it came across as a force that could be reasonably harnessed in a variety of ways given proper understanding of it...and the Ancients had geniuses like Elidibus who was able to simulate the Crystal Tower's time travel functions though magick simply via analysis.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What I find absolutely hilarious about these 'What if' scenarios is that the power is entirely in the hands of the writers. If they're not interested in you saving Amaurot, then you can't and you won't. They can come up with any number of reasons why it won't work, because they set down the rules for this in-game world. It's a bit like arguing with your DM. 'Oh, you reminded Hermes' about Meteion? Tsk, tsk, shouldn't have done that, now. He's gone and betrayed you, and his creation, Zodiark, is now a blasphemy, so Amaurot still falls. Tooo bad. Want to try again? We can go at this all day.'

Lore is about understanding the world that the writers are creating, not trying to control it.

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It will never stop being strange to me that people interpret, or choose to interpret, criticism of the mechanical construction of stories as an attempt to usurp authority from the writers instead of what it is, which is commentary on the work. It's like the "why didn't they just fly the eagles to Mordor" question. It's not that people believe that by pointing out this apparent contradiction between the actions of the protagonists and the resources established as being at their disposal, they can somehow defeat Tolkien and force him to re-write the saga in a way where it ends two thirds into Fellowship and prevent Boromir from dying. Rather, they're illustrating that he forgot to wipe up some spit off the narrative windshield, and it took them out of the experience and made the struggles of the characters feel less meaningful. Because if it's never made clear why the eagles could not easily resolve the central conflict, Boromir's arc can feel less like the cathartic tragedy of a man's personal weakness and his noble attempt at redemption, and more like a senseless series of events caused by the characters being too stupid to have Gandalf talk to some giant birds.

That's a very hyperbolic example, and likewise, I think a lot of this conversation on the textual realism of the Ancients creating an anti-Meteion to beat Meteion is a little silly - of all the things that felt strange about Endwalker, I'm not sure the story never addressing the possibility even makes the list for me. It's basically fluff, you know? It doesn't have any connection to the actual themes of the story.

But regardless, neither criticism is an attempt to "control" the fictional world. It's judgement. Even if you're only interested in discussing the lore literally and not meta-critique on it as a product, that's clearly not the scope of the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

It will never stop being strange to me that people interpret, or choose to interpret, criticism of the mechanical construction of stories as an attempt to usurp authority from the writers instead of what it is, which is commentary on the work. It's like the "why didn't they just fly the eagles to Mordor" question. It's not that people believe that by pointing out this apparent contradiction between the actions of the protagonists and the resources established as being at their disposal, they can somehow defeat Tolkien and force him to re-write the saga in a way where it ends two thirds into Fellowship and prevent Boromir from dying. Rather, they're illustrating that he forgot to wipe up some spit off the narrative windshield, and it took them out of the experience and made the struggles of the characters feel less meaningful. Because if it's never made clear why the eagles could not easily resolve the central conflict, Boromir's arc can feel less like the cathartic tragedy of a man's personal weakness and his noble attempt at redemption, and more like a senseless series of events caused by the characters being too stupid to have Gandalf talk to some giant birds.

That's a very hyperbolic example, and likewise, I think a lot of this conversation on the textual realism of the Ancients creating an anti-Meteion to beat Meteion is a little silly - of all the things that felt strange about Endwalker, I'm not sure the story never addressing the possibility even makes the list for me. It's basically fluff, you know? It doesn't have any connection to the actual themes of the story.

But regardless, neither criticism is an attempt to "control" the fictional world. It's judgement. Even if you're only interested in discussing the lore literally and not meta-critique on it as a product, that's clearly not the scope of the conversation.

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Thanks for spelling that out better then I did.

I guess what really bugs me is that the story tries its hardest to hammer home that the Ancients were utterly hopeless in the face of despair when they were never even given a fair chance to fight back in the first place. Musing over ways they might've been able do that if they were given the chance comes as a natural extension of that.

While Emet-Selch does claim that "our methods would never have gotten us this far", I always took that as the Ascians' methods, not the Ancients and more just an admittance that they would've never addressed the actual cause of the Final Days had they succeeded in following their course.

It is frankly bizarre to me as well. The developers have gone on record in interviews now multiple times, stating they take player reception and feedback into account - Yoshi even commented on the fact that the way the ancients were received was different to what he (reasonably or not) expected. They also invite the player to think on how their character would react to various situations, no less through Azem, a character that whilst separate to the MC, has been tied to them. There are points within the lore that lead one to question the viewpoint that the ancients had no way of resolving the situation. Whatever their true intentions, they are there.

People are also perfectly within their rights, as consumers of a product, to say both 1) if this was the message, I did not like it and/or 2) the game did not do too good a job at conveying it... for xyz reasons. All the feedback offered is with the foregoing in mind. None of us can or hope to "control" the writers, but if they are listening to feedback, as any business awake to the commercial reality it operates within will be doing, then what is the issue with pointing out perceived writing inconsistencies in the product as presented? Even if it is not being presented as feedback, and is simply discussion for its own sake, it very much is a case of discussing whether the lore as presented supports a point or not, and it is very ambiguous as things stand, and that is regardless of whether the writers could've achieved it another way. I eagerly await some vague, badly ageing red herring to be offered up, about some posters telling them to change the story in the submissions for the lore Q&A, as if it makes the slightest bit of difference to the parties involved to this specific discussion or to the offering up of feedback more generally, as opposed to being little more than concern trolling.

We'll see how the writers address the feedback received in future writing, if they choose to.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Thanks for spelling that out better then I did.

I guess what really bugs me is that the story tries its hardest to hammer home that the Ancients were utterly hopeless in the face of despair when they were never even given a fair chance to fight back in the first place. Musing over ways they might've been able do that if they were given the chance comes as a natural extension of that.

While Emet-Selch does claim that "our methods would never have gotten us this far", I always took that as the Ascians' methods, not the Ancients and more just an admittance that they would've never addressed the actual cause of the Final Days had they succeeded in following their course.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Thanks for spelling that out better then I did.

I guess what really bugs me is that the story tries its hardest to hammer home that the Ancients were utterly hopeless in the face of despair when they were never even given a fair chance to fight back in the first place. Musing over ways they might've been able do that if they were given the chance comes as a natural extension of that.

While Emet-Selch does claim that "our methods would never have gotten us this far", I always took that as the Ascians' methods, not the Ancients and more just an admittance that they would've never addressed the actual cause of the Final Days had they succeeded in following their course.

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It doesn’t help when you play through past expansions and see things like characters specifically saying, even if they die or their cory dies they’re going to fight against whatever threat they’re facing(HW). Or then, you look at Dragonsong’s lyrics said to be from Hydaelyn’s perspective where one line is:”Tell me why break trust, why turn the pst to dust?” Talk about being tone deaf and hypocritical lol. She did both of those things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

"Frail, weak beings" like Zenos scared Elidibus enough to make him abandon Zenos' own "frail" body rather than face Zenos himself. "Frail, weak beings" like WoL triumphed over multiple Unsundered beings like Nidhogg, Omega, Emet-Selch, Ultima, and Elidibus. The ancients' creation magics can be considered "godlike", but they're not truly perfect, immortal beings. The ancients were flawed people who often used their powers irresponsibly and were not insurmountable. The whole point of Elpis is to show that Emet-Selch's account is being filtered through his immense sentimentality for his people in a way that covers up their flaws. Hence why the phantom Amaurot has the ancients all be mature, wise, and kind when the actual ancients were often pompous, arrogant, forgetful, and suffering from their self-imposed isolation in a way that stifled their creativity.

If your response to everything the story tells you is "la la la la Protags have PLOT ARMOR la la la la" then I don't know what to tell you other than that you're purposefully not engaging with the narrative to satisfy your headcanon.

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I'm sorry...but this is just so hilarious to me. Another person who has an immense ego with their WoL. I hate to inform you, but 99% of WoL's wins are the result of having higher up help. Nidhogg? We had the eye of another dragon. Omega? Hydaelyn's blessing and the help of Midgardsormr. Emet? 5 Light Wardens worth of aether and the only reason we even win is confirmed to have been because of his sentimentality. Ultima? The help of 3 other people and Hydaelyn's blessing. Elidibus? He literally would have killed us had Emet not intervened. Hell, even Lahabrea slaughters us in Prae now. We have to rely on our mommy to pick us up and re-temper us LOL.

Quoting one of Lurina's older posts: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get."

We never see Venat try anything else, in fact, when presented with the opportunity for a do over she decides that the future the WoL has described to her (which should horrify rather than fascinate her) is the way to go. We're also not presented with satisfactory evidence Hermes' inclusion was necessary based on what we learn from Elidibus. Add to this Venat says she has a "basic understanding" of dynamis though it's not her field of study, but this is apparently enough for her to make a judgment call that nobody would be capable of figuring out a means of dealing with it even with all the greatest minds and several millennia to do so.

The LL Q&A also emphasized these were Venat's beliefs. Her fear of The Plenty, her crisis of faith in her people. She's not Dr. Strange who viewed 14 million potential future outcomes and the WoL's is the only successful one. She's one woman who decided she knew better than anyone else and it didn't matter how many lives were lost in the process as long as no Plenty and no Meteion. Her ideology further falls apart when the Ancients as a whole are not depicted as she viewed them. It's quite telling that the "Zodiark cultist strawmen" in her cutscene is her perspective.

Venat's characterization is fully in line with multiple villains throughout the series ranging from Thordan, to Emet, to Hermes. Yoshi-P even compares her to the Ascians. It was going to take a lot more than gratuitous gaslighting to convince people like myself that she was not a "bad guy". Not only did the narrative fail to do it, but made hypocrites out of the main cast in doing so.

I'm glad someone brought up the old "why didn't Frodo ride the Eagles to Mount Doom" argument, since it's a great example of people thinking they found a plot hole without actually stopping to consider factors like:

1. The mission to destroy the ring was being undertaken in utmost secrecy, eagles are pretty conspicious

2. The victory of the Free Peoples was dependant on redirecting Sauron's gaze to Aragon by misleading him into beleiving the ring was with him. The eagles making a beeline for Mount Doom would have ruined that.

3. Sauron had Nine Ring-Wraiths on flying Fell Beasts that would have ripped any Eagle over the skies of Mordor to pieces.

4. The Eagles are a proud and independent creatures who are not going to risk thier lives as a taxi service.

5. The Eagles are a representation of divine providence, and bring deliverence to Sam and Frodo after they completed thier quest. There wouldn't have been a story if you had God take care of the conflict before it started.

Plenty of Tolkien scholars and Tolkien himself have made these points, but they are apparent from reading the text itself.

Similarly, there are plenty of reasons why "Venat didn't just tell people about Meteion" - a major one being that telling the convocation means telling Fandaniel, a character who at this point, we already know was willing to play an incredibly long game until he was able to get into a position where he could hijack Zodiark and try to kill everyone and everything, and that was without him knowing that his beloved creation agreed with him about the futility of life.

You can pick apart any fictional work that you like by questioning it. That's why Coleridge phrased it as 'that willing suspension of disbelief'. 'Willing' being the operative word. If you're unwilling to take the writers' statements about the story at face value because you choose not to believe them, well, there's no story in here for you. That's truly unfortunate, but I'm sure you'll get over it. That's not a lore problem.