Because the gameplay in FF14 encourages dpsing as a primary source of activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread
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06-02-2017, 08:22 AMBelhi
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06-02-2017, 08:25 AMJisKing98THATS F**KING LEGENDARY RIGHT THERE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada
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06-02-2017, 08:27 AMKDSilver
There were a lot of topic on the white mage changes.
I think the community has told his opinion and SE will definitly make some adjustments. Maybe not for the release, but soon after. -
06-02-2017, 08:28 AMSaraphinit was talked about in many of the Media Weekend Videos (look up Mister Happy's) and he also discussed it on his stream the first day the Embargo ended. it was a big disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by fantasticm
he discussed that he couldn't get lillies to Proc on someone at Full Health, no matter how much he tried. -
06-02-2017, 08:30 AMTaleraRistainAt the cost of ignoring the much-more-mana efficient abilities we got after those abilities? They gave us Regen and Medica II and Tetra for a reason. It's ass-backwards to now say "But we don't want you to use any of them! Just spam Cure and Cure II!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Feidam
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06-02-2017, 08:32 AMKisaiTenshiMillions of crafters cried out and were then repose'd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belhi
No, the primary source of activity in the game is playing whatever class/job you have, if you are in a party then teamwork is necessary.
The problem as evident by the hardcore raiders on the forum taking issue with the changes, is that their own complaints have been used against them. "Make WHM more interesting", Yoshi-P agrees and makes healing more interesting. "Use all the tools in the toolbox", So now you have to use Cure I and Cure II like Yoshi-P believes everyone should be doing, and if you're not, you're not using all the tools in your toolbox.
The healers did not ask for more DPS. They asked for more utility. Yoshi-P wants every job to have some kind of unique thing to it, and thus far the Unique thing to WHM is that it's a healer, while the other two healers have utility from cards and pets. Players should want to take the WHM into raids because they heal the hard hitting damage.
But RNG-based game play is not terribly fun unless the goal from Yoshi-P was to get people to stop using "rotations" for everything. Consider Proc's bonuses not must-wait-for's. -
06-02-2017, 08:34 AMFynlarAre you one of Those Guys who berates fighting-game players who pick the characters that aren't considered to be among the best?Quote:
The reason I say to delete WHM isn't for me. Sure, I can just drop it and never touch it again, and I plan to do so. What bothers me though is that people may pick it up expecting it to be a decent healer, only to find out later that it's objectively worse.
God forbid someone should play a job because they like it, or anything. -
06-02-2017, 08:41 AMfantasticmFirst off, are you seriously comparing crafting/gathering to combat? Please laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
I'm not sure how many times this needs to be said by so many different people for it to be understood. It is not only hardcore raiders that have issues with the changes. WHM's '''utility''' being able to heal "THE HARD HITTING DAMAGE" is NOT utility. Both SCH and AST both need to be able to heal The Hard Hitting Damage in order for SCH/AST combo to be viable. If SCH and AST couldn't keep up with damage as compared to WHM, then they wouldn't be viable! And they would be the ones on the forums calling bullshit. All three jobs can already do their jobs just fine, but only WHM is unable to bring anything more to the table. All they got were more heals, and RNG based heals at that. WHM already healed perfectly fine, why do they need more (crappier) healing spells? How is this so hard for you to understand? -
06-02-2017, 08:44 AMAyer2015
How about 3 lilies and you can use Holyaga.... 40yalm PBAOE w/ 680 potency
One can dream.... -
06-02-2017, 08:45 AMAlphaSonicHave you thought that if WHM has so much healing and it's mandatory to use it then AST/SCH combo won't be able to be used in raids? And if AST/SCH are able to heal raids then WHM becomes worthless because it doesn't bring anything that AST/SCH can?Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
Nice trolling btw. -
06-02-2017, 08:48 AMYallaidIf Yoshi-P believes this, WHY did he create Regen, Medica I, Medica II, Asylum, Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Cure III and Assize.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
Every one of those skills has a use that would make it preferable to Cure I or Cure II and now I'm asked to decide if one is worth casting instead of so many Cure spells and their potential Lily/Confession procs -
06-02-2017, 08:52 AMUrthdiggerNo, it's not like I was calling for people to drop WHM in HW when it was still unwanted for raids but had its own niche use in dungeons. I'm calling for it now because everything it does, another job does better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
I don't yell at people just for picking a low tier character in fighting games, but if someone picks a joke character assuming it's a real one? Damn straight I'll let them know what they're doing. -
06-02-2017, 08:52 AMKisaiTenshiConsidering how frequently the hardcore raiders are saying WHM's must DPS, you'd think that the content wasn't hard. All the healers have to heal at exactly the same rate otherwise one becomes the "best" that everyone uses, and the other two are discarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaSonic
If you take the time to read patch notes, you'll note that SE already penalizes lazy gameplay by having two of the same class/job in the party.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...d0980ac2b5a39c
There is always a penalty to not playing as Yoshi-P intended.Quote:
2.0][3.0] In keeping with balance changes for certain dungeons and trials, the rate at which the Limit Break Gauge fills has been adjusted as follows:
Dungeons and trials accessible solo via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will no longer fill more slowly when multiple members of the same class/job are in the party.
Dungeons and trials requiring a full party to register via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will fill more slowly under the following conditions:
Three or more party members are playing as tanks.
Five or more party members are playing as DPS.
Three or more party members are playing as healers.
Two or more party members are playing the same class or job.
Class/job roles are as follows:
Tank: Gladiator / Marauder / Paladin / Warrior / Dark Knight
DPS: Pugilist / Lancer / Rogue / Monk / Dragoon / Ninja / Archer / Thaumaturge / Arcanist / Bard / Black Mage / Summoner / Machinist
Healer: Conjurer / White Mage / Scholar / Astrologian
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06-02-2017, 08:54 AMfantasticmQuote:
Originally Posted by Yallaid
It's not really an answer, but an explanation. Maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
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06-02-2017, 09:01 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...lJokeCharacter Oh you poor simple mind. Donut underestimate the lethality of jokes, lest you become a goldmine of salt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
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06-02-2017, 09:06 AMUrthdiggerI said joke character, not lethal joke character. Ones that are just meant to suck, not ones that have some shining gimmick they can pull out to win :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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06-02-2017, 09:06 AMFynlarI don't think you understand what a joke character actually is.Quote:
No, it's not like I was calling for people to drop WHM in HW when it was still unwanted for raids but had its own niche use in dungeons. I'm calling for it now because everything it does, another job does better.
I don't yell at people just for picking a low tier character in fighting games, but if someone picks a joke character assuming it's a real one? Damn straight I'll let them know what they're doing.
For the majority of content in this game WHM will continue to be a perfectly functioning healer. That does not change regardless of how many shiny new toys they give to the other healers. -
06-02-2017, 09:15 AMmagnanimousCynicI think 100% Lily proc rate would need adjustments, such as 1 and 2 Lilies being 5/10% Recast Reduction, and you can only consume 2 Lilies at a time instead of all 3 (hell, a max of 4 Lilies with 100% proc doesn't sound too powerful). That way you don't have to worry about min-maxing your Lily Efficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitfox
100% proc rate for Confessions (I know you didn't mention Confessions, but it shares the same % as Lily) would be rather overpowered with the 15s Recast of Plenary Indulgence, as Confessions directly impact healing output while Lilies don't. An increase to PI's Recast, potency reduction, and/or Confession spreading via AoE healing would improve it vastly instead of being the Free Pseudo AoE heal people currently see it. -
06-02-2017, 09:15 AMBourne_EndeavorBecause Kisai is either a troll or so shockingly arrogant, she cannot even begin to process her concept of how healing works may be wrong. Keep in mind, this is someone decked out in ilvl 180 gear. She hasn't even seen the content she's been prattling on about, much less cleared it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fantasticm
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06-02-2017, 09:16 AMKeridwynIt changes when those other healers heal harder more consistantly while bringing even more to the table. Its like do you want this perfectly serviceable rifle or this perfectly serviceable rifle with a scope and larger calibur ammo? They will both get the job done but one is superior to the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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06-02-2017, 09:21 AMNixThis is beautiful hahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada
(~o_o)~ oooOOO000oooooo~! -
06-02-2017, 09:21 AMfantasticmI think I want to lean towards troll, as I started to have my suspicions when she said 'stoneskin is a skill no one ever uses because the tanks just run off or it falls off in one hit anyway.' Forget level 60 in i180 gear, a level 34 WHM would know that's not right...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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06-02-2017, 09:27 AMfantasticmHm, I couldn't find the exact quote but I'll take your word for it. Hopefully that's just a bug that gets fixed before release. Or who knows, maybe it's a feature? Don't think anyone would be surprised by that at this point. This whole lily system was a mistake. A tacked on, tragic mistake. WHM didn't need this. If they so badly wanted us to have a 'gauge' for a mechanic, why not give us a very visible display of how many healers are dead in other Alliances in 24-man content? I'd probably get more use out of that than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraphin
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06-02-2017, 09:30 AMSaraphini think he said it in his stream. it was one of the two, i was watching his stream and he talked about it a lot. WHM getting #Shafted seems to be what all the Media guys say. Even MerriQuote:
Originally Posted by fantasticm
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06-02-2017, 09:31 AMFynlarBy this sort of logic, in fighting games players would/should only ever play the statistically strongest character, and all the other characters should just be deleted. They don't, and they aren't.Quote:
It changes when those other healers heal harder more consistantly while bringing even more to the table. Its like do you want this perfectly serviceable rifle or this perfectly serviceable rifle with a scope and larger calibur ammo? They will both get the job done but one is superior to the others.
If they both "get the job done" that's all that really matters. You think every player in this game picks the class that they do because it's the strongest one? -
06-02-2017, 09:33 AMSpookyGhostAs much as I don't mind people playing WHM, this is a pretty poor comparison. Fighting games are competitive 1v1 games - by picking a character that isn't strong you're only potentially hurting yourself. In XIV (and MMOs in general) by picking a job that isn't strong you are affecting 7 other people's chance of killing the boss. The only real connection to the two is that you can use that weak character/job to beat any other character/kill the boss, but you'll be working significantly harder for the same reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Since we're bringing up fighting games, though, here's a fitting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk -
06-02-2017, 09:40 AMFynlarEh, not all of them. The example I actually had in mind when I wrote that was Smash Bros., which definitely isn't always 1v1 and is infamous for being picked apart and having its characters placed in "tiers"Quote:
As much as I don't mind people playing WHM, this is a pretty poor comparison. Fighting games are competitive 1v1 games - by picking a character that isn't strong you're only potentially hurting yourself. In XIV (and MMOs in general) by picking a job that isn't strong you are affecting 7 other people's chance of killing the boss.
If there is content that a class literally cannot complete, I'm sure it will be taken note of and corrected. In the meantime, player ability is going to account for way the hell more regarding whether or not a raid can be completed. -
06-02-2017, 09:46 AMYallaidnone of this accounts for the fact that the actual problem here is that the 4.0 WHM sounds miserable and unrewarding to play. People, who previously played WHM, through 2.x, through 3.x, will now NOT play WHM through 4.x. For the many and diverse reasons that so many people are going over and over here and elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
this is a problem for the entire game.
SCH also does not look to be in a good place btw -
06-02-2017, 09:48 AMKisaiTenshiThe fact that people have stated a few times that they never case Cure I at all, tells me that people are aren't playing it the way it's intended to be played. In other MMORPG games, you get a better spell, it replaces the older one, never to be used again. In FFXIV, you have to use spells of a certain level in content of that level in addition to the core role mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yallaid
The RNG aspect of WHM was always something of a dumb thing, and if it was based on playing accurately instead of blindly, it would make healing more interesting. eg, you're in a fight with one boss and a party flattener is coming up. The logical thing to cast is Medica II so it lands right after the boom. But what if one member of the party is going to die, regardless, because they ... maybe aren't as good as they think they are. Having to revive them constantly takes a lot of MP and Cast time. The usual reason for a wipe is because someone made a mistake, and trying to recover from that mistake can't be done.
If a WHM's opening move is to cast regen on the tank followed by Medica II and then DPS'ing for 21 seconds, that WHM is not playing the way Yoshi-P intended, and thus they will not have time to recover from mistakes due to CS.
Remove CS, that mistake recovery window is now instant instead of 5 seconds.
The intended gameplay is "what is the best thing to cast" not "what do I need to keep pressing" like a DPS.
Most of the content before Regen is even available is designed around Cure I/Cure II for WHM. If players are replacing Cure I/Cure II with Regen, then they do not get the freecure, which is like every second or third use.
If you have downtime as a healer, your party is either very good, or there is something else you can do. Casting more heals when none are needed obviously wastes the CD's of those skills, and the MP of skills that consume MP.
As it is, with the DF, there four kinds of parties:
A) The Party of newbies - Where you will have to use everything in the toolbox, and maybe still wipe if it's a party of DPS-Melee's who stand in the tank buster
B) The Party of farmers - Where they will try to speed run the dungeon by making as many mobs hit the tank at once, thus Cure I-Cure II progression is only possible after benediction. Medica II and Regen is too slow to use here when the tank is losing half it's health in every hit. By comparison the bosses are easy.
C) The Party of jerks - Where there is no teamwork, and everyone for themselves. Throw everything out there, regen, medica II, benediction, tetra, assize, asylum, even on trash.
D) The Party of Raiders - Where, if anyone makes a mistake, abandon instance. Not DPS'ing? Kick. Step in an AOE? Kick. Die? Kick. Mostly found in Raid and Primal fights.
All the healing magic designed to be used progressively as it gets more difficult. You can play the vast majority of content with that core Cure I and Cure II mechanic IF you are overgeared, and what I'm hearing on the forum is that is not the way the hardcore raiders want it to play. They want to heal as little as possible. Yoshi-P seems to think healers should heal as much as possible, and the tools given to date send a mixed message of how to do it.
With the Lily system Yoshi-P has bluntly pointed out the correctly way of playing WHM, and if you're not playing it this way, then you've picked the wrong Job and have been playing it incorrectly all this time.
Like in the suggestions for "fixing the lily" system, people don't get why Regen and Medica II HoT's are excluded, because if you're playing WHM as intended, you'd only use the regen players on the Tank or uncleanable debuffs. Otherwise you're taking time away from the Cure I-Cure II mechanic.
The most obvious way to play WHM is simply:
Who is bleeding? Nobody? Can you cast Stoneskin on someone? Can you throw up a DoT?
Tank is bleeding. Cast Cure I
Tank is still bleeding. Cast Cure I
Tank has lost half it's HP. Cast Cure II
Tank isn't recovering HP fast enough. Cast Cure II, then regen
If the tank is still loosing HP at this point, Benediction and Tetra are the last available options. If you've blown the CD's on them, then you're just going to have to use Cure II spam since you can't stack regen.
DPS is bleeding. Will they survive 5 seconds? If Yes, keep healing the tank
DPS is still bleeding. Cast Cure or Cure II whichever fits their damage
Party member is "poison" debuffed
Did everyone get whacked by the same damaging debuff? Medica II.
Is it just the Tank? Try Esuna
Did that work? No? Regen
Is it just a DPS? Try Esuna
Did that work? No? Regen
Is it you? Try Esuna
Did that work? No? Regen
Medica II is cast to time with party-smashers.
Medica is used when everyone is more than 15% damaged.
Cure III is pretty much useless in 4-man unless everyone is standing in one spot, so this is most useful in 8-man/24-man environments where people are standing in the same place.
Using Medica or Medica II outside of "entire party is damaged" isn't helpful.
99% of the time, the Tank is always bleeding once Stoneskin is dropped. If you are constantly blowing the CD's on everything, then you don't have those tools when you need them. The fact is that in most content everything with a CD is designed to compensate for minimum ilevel. If you're level and item synced, most of this content rarely calls for using everything in the toolbox at every possibility unless you panic heal all the time.
What I'm hearing from the raiders is "don't take my lazy healing away" when they've been the ones accusing WHM's of being lazy by not DPS'ing. So pretty much every complaint about changes to WHM stems from this lazy healing technique of casting only Medica II and Regen on everyone instead of Cure.
You all asked for changes, Yoshi-P delivered. Now everyone has to either adapt, keep playing the way they were playing before, or main a different job.
A lot of dungeons have specific mechanics that were designed to either use Medica II, Regen or Esuna on. Otherwise the debuffs could always be healed through or ignored. If you know the mechanics well enough to avoid getting the debuff, and avoid taking damage in the first place then it does feel like the Healer has little to do. There is rarely anyone outside the party that can be healed during a duty. -
06-02-2017, 09:48 AMUrthdiggerSo, it's ok for BLMs to only cast freeze right? It kills the mobs eventually, surely that's fine. They should be allowed to pick the weaker option if that's what they want!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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06-02-2017, 09:49 AMFynlarMatter of opinion. I'll still be playing it.Quote:
none of this accounts for the fact that the actual problem here is that the 4.0 WHM sounds miserable and unrewarding to play.
I'm not saying that no problem exists. I'm saying that berating a player for picking a job you don't like only says more about you than it does for them.
Your comparison sucks.Quote:
So, it's ok for BLMs to only cast freeze right? It kills the mobs eventually, surely that's fine. They should be allowed to pick the weaker option if that's what they want!
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06-02-2017, 09:53 AMYallaidthis right here is why you are wrong. There should not be a job in the game that does not have SOMETHING it should press every 2.5 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
There is currently no other job in the game, not even the other healers, that works that way and there should not be. The design of the game is that there should be something useful to accomplish with your gcd every time it comes available. -
06-02-2017, 09:54 AMAraminaQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
I think you took what Urthdigger said out of context. I don't think he was saying to berate people for picking the wrong job, but rather from the angle of a heads up "If your goal is savage level raiding then you would be better off choosing ast or sch as your main." -
06-02-2017, 09:55 AMYallaidI will be as well, just like i did 3.x BRD. because i am stubborn and because these are the jobs that I like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
But just like with 3.x BRD, I Want The Job To Function Properly -
06-02-2017, 09:59 AMBrill_What proof is there that whm won't be able to complete savage content?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramina
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06-02-2017, 10:03 AMBourne_EndeavorAramina didn't say White Mage couldn't clear Savage, just that you would be better off with Astro and Scholar. And she isn't wrong. Unless something changes between now and sometime late July when Omega Savage releases, White Mage isn't just sub-optimal, it borders on being a hindrance due to how powerful Astro and Scholar are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brill_
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06-02-2017, 10:03 AMNicodemus_MercyNone at all. WHM will absolutely be capable of completing savage content. But whether statics want bring them is questionable. I mean why bring a healer that just heals and does dps when you can bring a healer that heals, does dps, and buffs the whole groups dps as well? Without some sort of group dps buff utility, WHM has less to offer their groups than AST and SCH do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brill_
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06-02-2017, 10:08 AMAraminaWhat the other 2 said. I am not saying they won't be capable of it. I am saying you bring the best tool (or this case 2 tools) for the job and given the choice... WHM won't be one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brill_
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06-02-2017, 10:09 AMKaonisIt's like AST on 3.0 all over. It was possible to clear savage, but they were in every way weaker in any comp compared to just bringing a SCH/WHM, which translates to more of a burden on the rest of the group. Everyone has to do more DPS to make up for the DPS loss of bringing an AST back in those days, and the second healer has to make up for the loss of healing throughput with bringing an AST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brill_
But there is a world of difference between viable, and placing much more of the burden on the rest of the group, especially when there was nothing to justify it. -
06-02-2017, 10:12 AMFynlarI don't recall seeing "savage level raiding" anywhere in his post.Quote:
I think you took what Urthdigger said out of context. I don't think he was saying to berate people for picking the wrong job, but rather from the angle of a heads up "If your goal is savage level raiding then you would be better off choosing ast or sch as your main."
Also, when you say to outright delete a job, it's kinda implied that you think nobody should be playing it for any reason, even if *GASP* they happen to enjoy it, and regardless of whether they even intend to play it as a savage level raider.