Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

WoW raiding has been in decline partly because Mythic plus is harder content, but better rewards are obtainable from overland content. This has pushed a significant part of the raiding community away. Bragging rights are a part of it, but it's important there's a reward as an incentive.

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Wow has been in decline for me for over 6 years....

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Originally Posted by Avraym

This is true, raiders do love the bragging rights.

But I cling to the ideology that they'll always be more inclined to do whatever content will get them best in slot even more.

But that's purely an opinion.

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And this is what the truth of what is wanted - endgame raiding that only a small % of players can, and even will, do that provides them with better gear than anyone else... which will lead, as it always does in games that offer this, to elitism and lording it over the "casuals" who can't (due to lack of time, skill, effort, etc) obtain said gear.

As for the claim "Just give us a little, it's all we ask" - once they have that, it will never satisfy them... they will ask/demand more and more. History has shown in other games that have given to them... that they then start asking for more.

I remember in Guild Wars 2 for a long time raiders asked for 'hard content', raids, etc... and made the exact same claims as made by ppl in here - we just want the challenge, we just want a small bit to keep us going, we don't need best-gear, etc. They did get what they wanted eventually... ANet made in-game raids for them. What happened? Within a short time these same posters were complaining that it was not enough, that they were sad with how small the raids actually were... and demanding that more effort be made into providing even more raids, even more fights, even more content for them. They also demanded that the raids provide BiS gear that was significantly better than the current BiS Ascended gear was... as the time and effort put into raiding meant they should get the best of the best.

Sounds familiar right? It should, because if you go through this thread and look at the post's from those asking for more endgame focus and raids... you'll see all this.

Another point - about the popularity of raiding. Many people here will point to WoW as being the penultimate 'endgame raiding' game... from start to current. Funny fact is, back in WotLK days the dev's discussed the changes to raiding they'd made (moving Naxx from top-tier WoW to bottom-tier LK, LFR work, etc) - and the key point was the sheer LOW number of players who showed even an interest in raiding. They revealed that as of the end of BC only 6-7% of the player base had ever even set foot into any of the base or BC raids, only 4-5% had even cleared the 1st entry-level tier raid, and of the base raids only 1% had ever even managed to make it to Naxx... with less than 0.5% managing to clear it. The dev's who did all the work on the raids (story, art, fights, etc) were sad that so few ppl ever got to see their hard work 1st hand... this is why they moved Naxx to entry-level LK raid, why they worked on LFR, etc.

So "the raiding MMO' could not even get 10% of it's player base to even enter a raid. And this kind of low player-base who are interested in hard raids/dungeons/etc at endgame are supported by other games as well - when you look at say ESO, which has hard dungeons as a DLC... the 'veteran' (ie harder than hard version) version of the dungeons only have 3-5% clear rates on them.

Note - I stopped playing WoW just before Legion came out. The %'s of those entering raids can't be used as any reflection anymore, as the dev's have moved raiding from a purely endgame feature to something you have to do midway - 3/4 of the way through the main expansion story now. IE you used to only get LFR & normal raiding after the expansions story was done, but now you'll get to 50-75% or so mark of the expansion story and forced to do a LFR raid if you want to continue on with the base story. This shows just how desperate WoW dev's are to get #'s experiencing their raiding content... that they are now shoving it into the expansions main storyline, rather than just at the end.

And when you think of this - is there any surprise that FFXIV doesn't really change it's formulea? Works mostly on content that casual's can do, with a small amount done for hardcore savage/ultimate raiders. SE has shown it won't give YoshiP more budget so he could offer more hardcore content without effecting the vast majority of the playerbase, and YoshiP has shown he's not going to peeve off the majority just to try and please the minority... for good reason as other games have shown.

Good example - Guild Wars 2 listened to the 'hardcore' who acted like they were a huge amount... they demanded the base game was harder & more group focused. ANet listened and made the expansion Heart of Thorns harder to solo, more group focused, locked what would have previously been solo content behind a 'group only' requirement, etc just as the forum 'hardcore' players wanted.

ANet proceeded to suffer a 67% loss of revenue over the next 6 months as the majority of their paying customers left the game. This was the biggest loss that ANet has ever suffered with GW2 in a 6-month period by a huge margin. It was so bad that ANet made a public apology, said they had stuffed up... and nerfed the expansion area's heavily, changed the 'group only' stuff to stuff that could be done solo, etc all in an effort to stem the loss of players (and yes, it did stem the tide).

I'm sure YoshiP, and SE, have kept an eye on what's happening in other major MMO's and online games that they compete with for players (and yes, GW2 is a competitor to XIV)... and taken note of what works and what doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

And this is what the truth of what is wanted - endgame raiding that only a small % of players can, and even will, do that provides them with better gear than anyone else... which will lead, as it always does in games that offer this, to elitism and lording it over the "casuals" who can't (due to lack of time, skill, effort, etc) obtain said gear.

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While there are certain to be those out there who do try to “lord it over the casuals”, a lot of raiders also don’t care. I raid, and I don’t give two flying flips about what other players do in this game. I don’t care what their gear looks like—I don’t care if they have Savage BiS or not. The only time I ever speak of my own achievements is when someone is attempting to belittle me. Otherwise, I remain fairly humble. So please, don’t generalize all raiders.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

As for the claim "Just give us a little, it's all we ask" - once they have that, it will never satisfy them... they will ask/demand more and more. History has shown in other games that have given to them... that they then start asking for more.

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Most Ultimate raiders have only asked for a handful of things from the developers:
1. Keep making more Ultimate fights.
2. Keep the content synced/retain its challenge.
3. If they are ever unsynced in the future, remove the rewards.

And most are satisfied. I know I am. While I’d like for Savage or the Extremes to return to the glory days of Midas or Thordan Ex/Sephirot Ex, as long as there is still something challenging like Ultimate for me to have, I’m relatively content. And I stay pretty busy with content in this game, even if it’s not “endgame content” per the OP’s definition. I have multiple alts that I enjoy leveling, for example. So, again, please do not generalize all of us.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You directly contradicted yourself, and now you are trying to backpedal and change your argument. What deterred people from doing Ultimate compared to Neo-Exdeath is that Ultimate is significantly harder and players cannot do it. Increased stats on the weapons would not encourage more players to try Ultimate or push to complete it. It’s difficult to the point that most actually cannot do it, and that is the entire purpose of the content.

I don’t think you actually understand the design of Ultimate. You just think it’s another avenue for big boi strong gear, but that was never its intention. Its intention was to give the hardcore raiders a challenge because they were dissatisfied with the way Savage was getting progressively easier since Midas.

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I dont think I'm contradicting or back peddling at all. I even said that less players will also be inclined to do ultimate due to its difficulty alone.

But lets be real. A lot of players going into Ultimate Coil, would've had O4S weapons (or better).

What do you think their attitudes will be when they wipe over and over when they already have a reward of equal measure months ago.

I guarantee you, a lot players gave up, because the reward just wasn't worth the effort outside of bragging rights.

If ultimates are purely for bragging rights, it stands to reason why so few would strive to complete it - which is only reinforced by the statistics the dev's released.

Erm… if I make the first post on page 100 do I get some kind of prize? :)

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Erm… if I make the first post on page 100 do I get some kind of prize? :)

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Upvotes will be your prize.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I dont think I'm contradicting or back peddling at all. I even said that less players will also be inclined to do ultimate due to its difficulty alone.

But lets be real. A lot of players going into Ultimate Coil, would've had O4S weapons.

What do you think their attitudes will be when they wipe over and over when they already have a reward of equal measure months ago.

I guarantee you, a lot players gave up, because the reward just wasn't worth the effort outside of bragging rights.

If ultimates are purely for bragging rights, it stands to reason why so few would strive to complete it.

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People had those weapons because they literally had cleared Savage way before ultimate and it was all they had to do before the content came out, and beyond that, why wouldn't you have the best gear possible to challenge the hardest content in the game? Better gear means an ever so slightly larger margin for error.

I would know, I dipped my toes into Ultima after I had cleared Alphascape. You know why I did that? Its because I was bored. Savage didn't satisfy me anymore, I had capped all jobs, had bis on at least one job per role, and I was considering unsubbing until 5.0.

We wiped, a lot, and disbanded after only a few weeks, largely due to the looming expansion. But we had an absolute blast in the time we had, the vanity rewards weren't ever a concern, it was about bettering ourselves and doing something that felt good.

But I guess you're gonna gloss all over this like you have with literally every other post telling you the same thing in order to further your narrative that the only reason people do content is superior gear. Fact is, people don't do ultimate, not because the gear is out of date, but simply because they're not cut out for it.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I dont think I'm contradicting or back peddling at all. I even said that less players will also be inclined to do ultimate due to its difficulty alone.

But lets be real. A lot of players going into Ultimate Coil, would've had O4S weapons.

What do you think their attitudes will be when they wipe over and over when they already have a reward of equal measure months ago.

I guarantee you, a lot players gave up, because the reward just wasn't worth the effort outside of bragging rights.

If ultimates are purely for bragging rights, it stands to reason why so few would strive to complete it.

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The attitudes now in Ultimate are fairly positive unless you have members in a group making things particularly negative with their attitude—and not attitude caused by wipes, but by just bad personalities. Do groups get frustrated? Sure. My first UwU group had many nights of frustration when we were wiping to the primals. But I feel fairly confident in saying that most, if not every, group that clears UCoB and UwU have that victory screenshot at the end; the victory screenshot in front of Bahamut in T13 or Ultima Weapon in Ultima’s Bane; the victory nerd scream at the end of the VOD if people were streaming. Having a weapon that is essentially the same as Savage did not dull the clear for them. I didn’t give two hoots about the stats on the weapon when I cleared the first time. I just cared that I had done it.

The people that do Ultimate do it for the challenge. Not for the gear. They never did it for the gear (outside of glamour—certainly not for a BiS). And I don’t think Ultimates need some Ultimate Big Boi gear to drop from it for participation.

Gear is transient in this game. Raiders realize that. That’s why Ultimate-tier raiders don’t put stock in the weapon stats—they never did. They put the stock in the achievement of doing something that is challenging. It is enough for them.


And hey. The bragging rights from an Ultimate clear were enough for some to fork over $1200 for carries when the content first released. Too bad it becomes fairly obvious fairly quickly that their clear wasn’t earned by anyone other than their credit card. :rolleyes:

One of the biggest problems is that there is very little endgame content contained outside of instanced activities which, once completed, is ignored until the following week/day.

Other MMO's offer gear progression in the ways of loot drops with better stats. I don't see FFXIV ever embracing this but I wonder if it could have been a thing in Eureka. We've had stat management before with relic gear and even base stats could be assigned back in ARR so they "could" do this and lock it into an "alternative open world". This could then be transferred into our current world upon meeting a threshold.

Ultimately, it doesn't seem to matter how much gets added, there will always be a portion of the playerbase who will burn through it all and wonder what is next. Therefore we get the repeated suggestion of "playing another game", taking a break" and essentially, having a life and not a gaming addiction. I suspect the vast vast vast majority of the player base is satisfied.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The statistics match the developers design. It wasn’t designed for 10%, 20%, or 30% clear rates. It was designed for the 1%. And the clear rates match. Ultimate is the most successful piece of content this game has ever released. Ultimate brought FFXIV into the Top 10 on Twitch. FFXIV’s visibility shot up after UCoB came out. Same with UwU. They were repeatedly streamed well past when they were first released, and that has never happened with any other piece of content. No other piece of content has the longevity Ultimate does.

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This is what gets me...I've seen this to a lesser extent with Savage as well. So, casuals claim there is so little interest from other people in endgame and yet... as is said here, the twitch viewers shoot up about tenfold when Ultimate comes out. Why is that, if raiders are a vanishing minority? Why is raiding still a big thing in WoW, the MMO that, despite declining numbers from its prime, still holds the most subs? People here keep acting as if adding some raid content would somehow be detrimental, but can someone tell me where all those interested Twitch viewers come from then if there's not people wanting to participate in these raids and see more of them?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

This is what gets me...I've seen this to a lesser extent with Savage as well. So, casuals claim there is so little interest from other people in endgame and yet... as is said here, the twitch viewers shoot up about tenfold when Ultimate comes out. Why is that, if raiders are a vanishing minority? Why is raiding still a big thing in WoW, the MMO that, despite declining numbers from its prime, still holds the most subs? People here keep acting as if adding some raid content would somehow be detrimental, but can someone tell me where all those interested Twitch viewers come from then if there's not people wanting to participate in these raids and see more of them?

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Well, maybe because Twitch viewers are interested in watching a show? Fighting a raid boss is a show, a race for a World First is a show, no matter how many people in game are actually participating in said activity.
Doing the same trial x99 for a mount, farming 100500 resources to craft and make gil, decorating a house while 10 times rearranging the south wall - all these are not a show for the Twitch users, though still a very valuable activity for lots and lots FFXIV players.

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Originally Posted by PandaMonium

Well, maybe because Twitch viewers are interested in watching a show? Fighting a raid boss is a show, a race for a World First is a show, no matter how many people in game are actually participating in said activity.
Doing the same trial x99 for a mount, farming 100500 resources to craft and make gil, decorating a house while 10 times rearranging the south wall - all these are not a show for the Twitch users, though still a very valuable activity for lots and lots FFXIV players.

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And you don't think having a constant show on twitch with some interesting endgame activity to show could bring in more people to this game? Honestly, I think it could make this game more successful than it is. I don't know why casuals are so scared like using 5% more for raiding content is going to break their game.

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Originally Posted by PandaMonium

Well, maybe because Twitch viewers are interested in watching a show? Fighting a raid boss is a show, a race for a World First is a show, no matter how many people in game are actually participating in said activity.
Doing the same trial x99 for a mount, farming 100500 resources to craft and make gil, decorating a house while 10 times rearranging the south wall - all these are not a show for the Twitch users, though still a very valuable activity for lots and lots FFXIV players.

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This, I sub to quite a few YouTube channel keep watching their walkthrough, but never have the intention to buy or play that game.
Some people just have a very busy life and enjoy watching

No, I think they intend for casuals to cancel and the resub later when there is more content....

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

No, I think they intend for casuals to cancel and the resub later when there is more content....

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Casuals are not the ones running out of content. Game has tons of stuff for the casual crowd, more so then most mmos.

The 98 pages of threads have taught me one thing: The debate is not really "casuals" vs "hardcore." Since by their own admission, the "hardcore" people are the ones that run out of content first and either unsub or go play another game while they wait.

It's "raiders who only like challenging endgame battle content" vs "completionists who enjoy PvE timesinks."

I guarantee you that the PvE timesink people are the ones who generate more money for SE (due to constant Mogstation infusions and paying for 10 retainers to hold all their stuff), who have more hours logged (I apparently hit 700 days recently), and who probably have more accomplishments in the game, even if those accomplishments don't include UWU, a Feast ranking, or a world first savage win.

Once again, though: I think the raiders do deserve more content. Due to the nature of software development, adding that content is not easy because they cannot clone experienced battle content programmers, and sometimes they can't even hire them for any price. But if SE has to prioritize one thing, taking into account the iron triangle of software development, I'm okay with raiding being the one thing that gets some extra love. Twelve knows I've still got plenty of other things to do.

Just don't call me a "casual" as an insult because I choose to spend my 30 hours a week in this game fishing or leveling up alternative jobs or grinding out of date anima weapons for the achievements.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

And you don't think having a constant show on twitch with some interesting endgame activity to show could bring in more people to this game? Honestly, I think it could make this game more successful than it is. I don't know why casuals are so scared like using 5% more for raiding content is going to break their game.

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And there's your problem.

"Constant."

Devs are humans too, you know. There's only so much they can do at any given time. Not to mention the level of experience required. I believe Yoshida has mentioned that out of his entire battle design team, only 3 of them are even capable of making Ultimate-level fights? And of course, that's not for lack of trying to get more designers (they're constantly looking for more staff).

I wonder if we'll get three Ultimates for ShB. It sounds like Yoshida would be willing to try it, but of course, it's an eternal battle of resources.

As an aside out of curiosity, what would people prefer to have if given the choice: two more bosses added to Normal/Savage raid tiers, or one more Ultimate boss per expansion?

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Originally Posted by Catwho

The 98 pages of threads have taught me one thing: The debate is not really "casuals" vs "hardcore." Since by their own admission, the "hardcore" people are the ones that run out of content first and either unsub or go play another game while they wait.

It's "raiders who only like challenging endgame battle content" vs "completionists who enjoy PvE timesinks."

I guarantee you that the PvE timesink people are the ones who generate more money for SE (due to constant Mogstation infusions and paying for 10 retainers to hold all their stuff), who have more hours logged (I apparently hit 700 days recently), and who probably have more accomplishments in the game, even if those accomplishments don't include UWU, a Feast ranking, or a world first savage win.

Once again, though: I think the raiders do deserve more content. Due to the nature of software development, adding that content is not easy because they cannot clone experienced battle content programmers, and sometimes they can't even hire them for any price. But if SE has to prioritize one thing, taking into account the iron triangle of software development, I'm okay with raiding being the one thing that gets some extra love. Twelve knows I've still got plenty of other things to do.

Just don't call me a "casual" as an insult because I choose to spend my 30 hours a week in this game fishing or leveling up alternative jobs or grinding out of date anima weapons for the achievements.

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Standing ovation

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Originally Posted by Catwho

The 98 pages of threads have taught me one thing: The debate is not really "casuals" vs "hardcore." Since by their own admission, the "hardcore" people are the ones that run out of content first and either unsub or go play another game while they wait.

It's "raiders who only like challenging endgame battle content" vs "completionists who enjoy PvE timesinks."

I guarantee you that the PvE timesink people are the ones who generate more money for SE (due to constant Mogstation infusions and paying for 10 retainers to hold all their stuff), who have more hours logged (I apparently hit 700 days recently), and who probably have more accomplishments in the game, even if those accomplishments don't include UWU, a Feast ranking, or a world first savage win.

Once again, though: I think the raiders do deserve more content. Due to the nature of software development, adding that content is not easy because they cannot clone experienced battle content programmers, and sometimes they can't even hire them for any price. But if SE has to prioritize one thing, taking into account the iron triangle of software development, I'm okay with raiding being the one thing that gets some extra love. Twelve knows I've still got plenty of other things to do.

Just don't call me a "casual" as an insult because I choose to spend my 30 hours a week in this game fishing or leveling up alternative jobs or grinding out of date anima weapons for the achievements.

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I think your observation is fair. I don't understand elitist people using casual as an insult term either.

A lot of players, simply prefer less challenging, more time sink orientated gameplay and I think that's perfectly fine, especially given a lot of them only play "x" amount of hours a week.

But I personally consider myself a mixture of both a "raider who only like challenging endgame battle content" and a "completionist who enjoy PvE timesinks."

I'll usually unlock most/all side content, max all classes, make the most out of my dailies/weeklies.

I still enjoy it - but find myself quickly running out of reasons to do endgame battle content (given how little there is and how quickly you can achieve what you need with what we have).

The game certainly does a better job at sating the PvE timeskink rather than end game battle content.

Complete all the content in the game, with screenshots, then come back here, not before.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Complete all the content in the game, with screenshots, then come back here, not before.

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How many times are people going to repeat this tired argument? There's a difference between being a completionist and being someone who enjoys a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I think your observation is fair. I don't understand elitist people using casual as an insult term either.

A lot of players, simply prefer less challenging, more time sink orientated gameplay and I think that's perfectly fine, especially given a lot of them only play "x" amount of hours a week.

But I personally consider myself a mixture of both a "raider who only like challenging endgame battle content" and a "completionist who enjoy PvE timesinks."

I'll usually unlock most/all side content, max all classes, make the most out of my dailies/weeklies.

I still enjoy it - but find myself quickly running out of reasons to do endgame battle content (given how little there is and how quickly you can achieve what you need with what we have).

The game certainly does a better job at sating the PvE timeskink rather than end game battle content.

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I have always kinda found it an odd mix of both. The more time sink stuff for the shorter work days as it can usually be done in smaller time chunks without issue, and the bigger more challenging content on my days with more free time. As I expect to need more than a couple of hours for challenging content, either because its hard enough to take a few attempts to complete, or its just longer and takes a bit more time in general.

As to why I think we keep running into the lack of meaningful endgame content, it has to do with some of the discussion about dungeon design in that other thread I mentioned earlier. There is really no variation as we only got one tool to solve dungeons with, kill all the mobs. About the only new challenge in any content is new and unusual mechanics, and that lasts how long? After that its just a memory game and avoid the bad spots, unless they start doing unscripted bosses. Guess what that means for difficulty? It boils down to how consistently can you perform at a certain level. Maybe its not difficulty in the traditional Easy/Normal/Hard (aka Extreme, Savage, Ultimate) slider that we need more on the higher end, but the other Simple/Normal/Complex slider that some overlook that more is needed on the higher end, after all it is kinda rare for mechanics to get more involved than move to point A or B depending on a debuff.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

And you don't think having a constant show on twitch with some interesting endgame activity to show could bring in more people to this game? Honestly, I think it could make this game more successful than it is. I don't know why casuals are so scared like using 5% more for raiding content is going to break their game.

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See I'm not sure you aren't trolling and purposely being obtuse at this point. You see you keep ranting about being a raider even to the point that you keep acting as if you're speaking on all of their behalf. Well after a quick lookup I can say that you are most definitely not a raider you are simply someone who joins raids and may or may not even be part of a static but I sincerely doubt it. The reason I'm saying this is rather simple the difference between Raiders and People that Raid is Raiders will actually have their crafting and gathering jobs maxed alongside their chosen raiding job the reason for this is because raiders will spend the time gathering and crafting items that will specifically benefit them and their statics in the raid content that means, Potions, Food, etc.etc. and they do this on the weekly they don't just rely on 1 person in the static to provide all of that and they definitely don't get what they need off the market board, (Auction house, Galactic Trade Kiosk, Etc.) I may not have really raided last expansion (Hell just came back in April and goofed off before new expac) But I have raided in both WoW and SWToR and I do plan on Raiding here with the new expansion out. I'm patient enough to spend the weeks in between working on leveling my crafts and gathering so I have more to provide in addition to my playing my chosen jobs. if you cant find something to fill your time in between raid times then maybe you just arent planning on doing much more than joining raids.

Eh, I wouldn't go off of the crafting/gathering thing alone. My best friend has cleared both ultimates multiple times and still hasn't levelled up her crafters/gatherers because she's lazy. However, she does have a multitude of gatherers/crafters (who also raid) who do this, and thus make her gear/pots/food - whilst bullying her for being slack. Anyway, just saying that there's always a black sheep who just doesn't wanaa. And then we laugh and cry when said sheeps gear has broken so you have to leave the instance...


If the said person sees this, stop slacking.

Can't wait to wake up before the patch hits and cry as I remember all the stuff I have to craft in prep for eden savage.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

How many times are people going to repeat this tired argument? There's a difference between being a completionist and being someone who enjoys a challenge.

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To be fair, people have been telling the OP to go do Ultimate, which is the ultimate challenge that this game can offer. And his argument varies between “It’s not level 80 and therefore doesn’t count as endgame content” to “It’s not worth it because the weapons are irrelevant and don’t give good stats”.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, people have been telling the OP to go do Ultimate, which is the ultimate challenge that this game can offer. And his argument varies between “It’s not level 80 and therefore doesn’t count as endgame content” to “It’s not worth it because the weapons are irrelevant and don’t give good stats”.

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Oh, then this guy is trolling or he doesn't know what he wants. Any raider worth their salt and wanting to get better at this game would at least want to give ultimate a shot. Or have it set as a goal on the road to 'improvement'.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, people have been telling the OP to go do Ultimate, which is the ultimate challenge that this game can offer. And his argument varies between “It’s not level 80 and therefore doesn’t count as endgame content” to “It’s not worth it because the weapons are irrelevant and don’t give good stats”.

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I've already explained why Ultimate isn't feasible for me, but heres the list:
- I'm an Australian. This means, our default ping on an English speaking server is 200+. At best, we are forced to play on a JP Server for approx 150ping-180ping. The content is already difficult, being handicapped doesn't help.
- Finding 7 other english speaking players willing to do such difficult content, in the same timezone as me as against the odds.
- Ultimate content is almost 2 years old, its not current content that many raiders are interested in.
- I unsubbed when these were released. As a returning player for ShB, I'm more interested in doing current content, not content 2 years old.
- Synced content that doesn't allow me the full access of my classes play-ability is also a deterrent.
- The rewards are purely of aesthetic/bragging value. I do understand that it's mostly about the "bragging rights" but, I'd rather set my efforts towards Eden Savage.

End game isn't entirely Ultimate, and not all people who enjoy challenging content exclusively enjoy Ultimate. EX Trials / Savage still provides challenging content, with meaningful rewards. That's more of the end game I'm interested in.

Will I attempt this time to do Ultimate content if it was released by 5.11 and I'm still subbed? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Complete all the content in the game, with screenshots, then come back here, not before.

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Probably the silliest response in this thread so far

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

Probably the silliest response in this thread so far

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Right....didnt even bother responding to this one

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I've already explained why Ultimate isn't feasible for me, but heres the list:
- I'm an Australian. This means, our default ping on an English speaking server is 200+. At best, we are forced to play on a JP Server for approx 150ping-180ping. The content is already difficult, being handicapped doesn't help.

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Get a VPN if you’re concerned about your ping. That said, I’m sure other Australian and Oceanic players did Ultimate just fine.

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- Finding 7 other english speaking players willing to do such difficult content, in the same timezone as me as against the odds.

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You’re on Tonberry, which is the OCE server. I doubt it’s that hard, especially since I’ve seen advertisements posted on here and reddit for English speaking statics on your Data Center.

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- Ultimate content is almost 2 years old, its not current content that many raiders are interested in.

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I’ve already debunked this several times. There is plenty of interest in Ultimate. You’re just refusing to see it because it contradicts this argument. The Discord I’m in literally had someone posting an advertisement for UCoB set to start 2 weeks after Eden Savage drops. Another posted an advertisement looking for a weekend Ultimate static. Before Shadowbringers dropped, when people were posting recruitment ads in the Aether Savage discords I’m in, many of them expressed a desire to recruit members to go back and clear past Ultimates and future ones. Same for the looking for static players—they wanted a group interested in doing the old fights as well as the new ones when they release. If people weren’t interested, they wouldn’t be advertising for it.

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- I unsubbed when these were released. As a returning player for ShB, I'm more interested in doing current content, not content 2 years old.

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Ultimate is always current and always relevant because of its sync. UCoB will be 2 years old this fall and there are still people clearing it to this day. UwU will be 2 years old in June 2020, and there are people still clearing it to this day.

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- Synced content that doesn't allow me the full access of my classes play-ability is also a deterrent.

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Hardly a deterrent. Jobs did not change drastically enough from level 70 to level 80 to affect Ultimate clear rates. It’s not like we’re looking at jobs at level 50, where some have a handful of skills and other don’t even have a full rotation. The developers did a really good job of keeping jobs at 70 more playable and more like their level 80 evolvements than any other prior level cap. Missing 1 or 2 skills won’t be a game breaker or make it unclearable.

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- The rewards are purely of aesthetic/bragging value. I do understand that it's mostly about the "bragging rights" but, I'd rather set my efforts towards Eden Savage.

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That’s fine, but the new tier won’t have nearly as much longevity as Ultimate does. Your entire thread was made as a complaint about having nothing to do, and this is something to do that is challenging, end-game content (end-game does not automatically mean level 80 only—this content stomps all over any level 80 content that will be released this expansion with the sole exception of the new Ultimates that will release). You’re just being stubborn about doing it at this point because it’s not level 80 content.

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End game isn't entirely Ultimate, and not all people who enjoy challenging content exclusively enjoy Ultimate. EX Trials / Savage still provides challenging content, with meaningful rewards. That's more of the end game I'm interested in.

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Implying that an Ultimate achievement in and of itself isn’t meaningful? A lot of raiders that seek a challenge go after Ultimate because it is the ultimate test of skill as a raider. As for EX trials, those haven’t been challenging since Sephirot EX; and Savage has been watered down since Midas. Which, as I already explained, was why Ultimate was made. But, like I said, you’re just being stubborn at this point.

Dammit, missed being the first to post on page 100 :(

I'll try a different slope. if the game doesn't have enough content for you then why are you subbed ? the game has more content than most mmos put together, are all your crafters/ gatherers maxed ? have every relic weapon ? didn't think so.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I've already explained why Ultimate isn't feasible for me, but heres the list:
- I'm an Australian. This means, our default ping on an English speaking server is 200+. At best, we are forced to play on a JP Server for approx 150ping-180ping. The content is already difficult, being handicapped doesn't help.
- Finding 7 other english speaking players willing to do such difficult content, in the same timezone as me as against the odds.
- Ultimate content is almost 2 years old, its not current content that many raiders are interested in.
- I unsubbed when these were released. As a returning player for ShB, I'm more interested in doing current content, not content 2 years old.
- Synced content that doesn't allow me the full access of my classes play-ability is also a deterrent.
- The rewards are purely of aesthetic/bragging value. I do understand that it's mostly about the "bragging rights" but, I'd rather set my efforts towards Eden Savage.

End game isn't entirely Ultimate, and not all people who enjoy challenging content exclusively enjoy Ultimate. EX Trials / Savage still provides challenging content, with meaningful rewards. That's more of the end game I'm interested in.

Will I attempt this time to do Ultimate content if it was released by 5.11 and I'm still subbed? Absolutely.

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You could have started and stopped on Your Data Center. You could have gotten away with the fact your handicapped by your ping...
But Everything else is just an excuse to rationalize not doing it...

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

I'll try a different slope. if the game doesn't have enough content for you then why are you subbed ? the game has more content than most mmos put together, are all your crafters/ gatherers maxed ? have every relic weapon ? didn't think so.

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The thread is about the lack of max level content, not content in general. You keep wanting to talk about things unrelated to the topic.

Pick up a single player RPG with optional classes and you can complete the game without playing every class. If you have OCD then you can complete the game on every class if you wish, but it's not essential. Same with FFXIV, you can reach endgame without completing every job. The idea that you must be a completionist with OCD and complete every single achievement in the game before you can ask for more max level content is nonsensical, there is no logical link between the two.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

The thread is about the lack of max level content, not content in general. You keep wanting to talk about things unrelated to the topic.

Pick up a single player RPG with optional classes and you can complete the game without playing every class. If you have OCD then you can complete the game on every class if you wish, but it's not essential. Same with FFXIV, you can reach endgame without completing every job. The idea that you must be a completionist with OCD and complete every single achievement in the game before you can ask for more max level content is nonsensical, there is no logical link between the two.

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Thank you.....

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Originally Posted by Avraym

We all know Final Fantasy has a formula for each expansion. The question is, is it enough to keep max level players sated.

Scottzone breaks down his thoughts in the below and articulates it better than I can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPGDmkb-j8

In my opinion, Shadowbringers overall is a fantastic expansion, with rich story telling, awe inspiring visuals and songs that are pieces of art. Unfortunately, once you hit max level, have acquired your extreme and tome gears - one can find themselves asking, "Is that it?".

Eden Savage is a much needed and welcomed addition, but 4 fights don't feel like enough end game content to keep a player busy. The game feels like it needs content between Eden Normal and Eden Savage.

I know new tomes are coming out in 2 weeks, but farming old content for tomes doesn't feel like enough.

In every other MMORPG I played, I never ran out of content to do at max level within less than two weeks of an expansion. There was always plenty to keep my max level busy and challenged.

Am I alone in wishing that we had more to keep our max level classes busy? I feel like the game offers so much "along the way to 80", but it just stops there and wants to level something else.

The game has grown substantially over the years and has definitely attracted more like minded people who are used to having plenty of options of end game content in its competitors.

In the interests of the games longevity and continued support of its subscribers, its a conversation worth having.

I'm interested in knowing what other players think who have experienced other MMORPGS at max level. Do you find yourself running out of things to do at max level? Obviously this excludes things like, leveling, old content etc.

If not - please provide examples of the kind of content you play at level 80 that keeps you busy.

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Well, theres always hunts for 80 players, weekly raids, extremes. If your done with it, pickup another job and level. Thats what most do in FFXIV. I have all my combat jobs at 70 and i still have alot to do. Theres also crafting, gathering and housing or a ton of stuff in the gold saucer, like chocobo races. The real end game is getting every job to 80 including crafting and gathering, minus Blue mage that can only reach 50. If your done with that, then im not sure what else to do lol.

Just something to note, FFXIV does not only focus on a single job, you have many to work your way trough. Also, Square takes great care in making raids and dungeons, its better to have quality over quantity.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

We already asked for our content many times over, but the casuals came in here intensely fighting against us getting anything new. Telling us to leave this game and go to WoW if we want raiding. Telling us we shouldn't try to ask for content that is enjoyable to us, because this game is a casual paradise(ignoring the fact they changed it to be so by complaining until they got their way.) Bragging about their victory in telling us just how much content they have but still being unwilling to give us anything. What does it have to do with me? It intensely frustrating for me because of the reason stated in the previous sentence. I don't believe it would hurt them to allow us a bone.

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It looks to me like people are simply arguing about what it means by a "lack of endgame content." It is unfortunate, but if the thread starter had just framed the thread to be about asking for more difficult PVE content, it might have reduced some of the "unwanted" response. But when you simply say there is nothing to do and then ask if others feel the same way, then people are free to disagree and give their own opinion about what there is to do.

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And sorry but, by and large the majority of raiders want to raid. These other types of content are at the least, not their primary interest and in fact likely they have no interest in them whatsoever.

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I didn't say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by linay

It looks to me like people are simply arguing about what it means by a "lack of endgame content." It is unfortunate, but if the thread starter had just framed the thread to be about asking for more difficult PVE content, it might have reduced some of the "unwanted" response. But when you simply say there is nothing to do and then ask if others feel the same way, then people are free to disagree and give their own opinion about what there is to do.

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He defines endgame in his first post as content for max level players, which while a bit ambiguous tends to frame the discussion. He then continued to talk about max level content some more. The title literally has endgame in it, which has a specific meaning in the mmo community. If people don't read or want to try and dismiss the argument by talking about something completely different that's not the OP's problem.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

He defines endgame in his first post as content for max level players, which while a bit ambiguous tends to frame the discussion. He then continued to talk about max level content some more. The title literally has endgame in it, which has a specific meaning in the mmo community. If people don't read or want to try and dismiss the argument by talking about something completely different that's not the OP's problem.

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Endgame content is anything at max level, and he asked if people are satisfied and have enough things to do at max level. Things like expert roulette fits that definition for this game. And as has been established, everything is related, so anything that feeds into doing more max level content on a single character is a valid response as part of keeping people busy after reaching level cap on that character.

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Originally Posted by linay

Endgame content is anything at max level, and he asked if people are satisfied and have enough things to do at max level. Things like expert roulette fits that definition for this game. And as has been established, everything is related, so anything that feeds into doing more max level content on a single character is a valid response as part of keeping people busy after reaching level cap on that character.

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Anything that feeds into doing more max level content is not max level content and therefore is not part of the question. What is being asked is for more content once you reach max level, not for more content to unlock max level content. Therefore it's invalid as a response and doesn't address the question.