The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Well, it sounds like reason, but then you get into the concept of bad and good players and how they should be treated.

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People are people regardless of anything, so treat everyone with kindness and respect is usually the go to whether they're terribad or super good at a game.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

No.

We need 4 more pages.

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4 More Pages.

I am I Against I, and I endorse this message.

This is no longer about healer dps. This is now about getting to 100 pages.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

This is no longer about healer dps. This is now about getting to 100 pages.

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i am working since page 36 or so on this goal xD 100 pages of useless discussion...

gogo, we are so close ^^/

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Originally Posted by Tint

i am working since page 36 or so on this goal xD 100 pages of useless discussion...

gogo, we are so close ^^/

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Heh interesting. In my opinion, this has been the most useful topic on the General Discussion in quite some time. The last most useful topic would have been on Parsers. Though, I also appreciate the topics on the Relic feedback and horizontal progression.

Like do you really find these other topics (all the topics on page 1 of General Discussion right now) have higher value?
I'm going to rate each from 1 to 5 (5 being useful discussion, 1 being not useful - obviously from my own opinion)

Red scrip Gear discussion? - 3 (I don't craft, but respect it's there - so neutral)
Can we please stop locking content out of DF? - 4
January 9, 2016 Active player census (and savage clear rates) - 2
Why is Housing even desired? - 2
Anima Weapon Gil Cost - 4
Retainers/inventory space - 2
How often do people use the player search - 1
Gil Spam - 1
Relic: Your progress on the Grind. - 2
Coffin Lid and wind up Echidna too rare? - 1
POST YOUR SELFIES - 1
Show your Miqo'te !! - 1
GIFs for those FFXIV moments - 1
What happens when you solo heal a Titan party from DF - 1
For the next expansion would you like a new race? More Faces or just sub-tribes? -1
Please, no more job restrictions for glamour. - 3
Let's talk about Hunts - a detailed rundown of their assumed mechanics - 3
Official ENTM-GD thread! 2.0 - 1
Marriage Partner Hookup Megathread! - 1

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

ooo

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IDK what you have against screenshots and fun threads... not every thread has to be a "let's evaluate the state of the game". What happened to talking with others about what you enjoy ingame?

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

IDK what you have against screenshots and fun threads... not every thread has to be a "let's evaluate the state of the game". What happened to talking with others about what you enjoy ingame?

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I have nothing against them, and I enjoy them. But they are hardly 'useful'

FORUM LIMIT -- EDITING POST TO REPLY (PS can this useless limit be removed, it prevents on-going thoughtful discussion more than it prevents spam)

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I think that fundamentally we agree.

Yes, if someone in your party thinks you should be dpsing and you don't want to (and your party needing only light heals makes it obvious that you can) then you are bad. I think players should use their whole tool kit but above all else I think players should care about doing their part to be a good teammate. Being a good teammate means being willing to adapt to your party's wishes. Also, your party should be willing to adapt to yours. For example, if you say you are new to healing and don't feel comfortable switching back and forth to dpsing, I can respect that.

As for the rest of what you are saying, I will further clarify something: I do personally think that healers that won't dps are bad and even if that was the average, I'd still think personally that it was bad. My argument is just that it is not an objective thing and needs some context. The context is the group one gets and whether most healers dps. As you say, most healers DO dps and most groups expect them to dps.

The whole gist of my original argument is this:

It would be acceptable if someone (as a healer) refused to dps if certain conditions were met (e.g. no one cares, the content can still be cleared, etc.). In reality, those conditions will rarely be met. Therefore, you should dps.

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100% agree, I don't think you can really say "objective" without first stating your unbiased criteria. As everyone's judgement has been made prior to creating any criteria, no judgement can be objective.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

I guess the point I'm trying to make is why does it matter if it's "useful" or not? I mean if we really think about it this thread isn't very useful; this exact same argument is happening over in the Healer forum, with the exact same circular logic going around and around. If anything this thread is redundant.

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He commented how it's useless discussion. I was making a statement that it is the most useful of discussion on the forums. I am not saying useless discussion (fun stuff) is bad, I am simply saying if he wants more useful discussion, he should look elsewhere.

As for the on topic discussion, I think that there has been a lot of good back and forth on whether healers should be expected to heal in a dungeon setting - or not. Further, I think the discussion evolved nicely to talk about if this should remain as an in-game design, or if they need (or should) to alter the design of the game to change the meta.

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Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Evil

Kaurie it's a troll.

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LOL but you are my favourite Troll

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I have nothing against them, and I enjoy them. But they are hardly 'useful'

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I guess the point I'm trying to make is why does it matter if it's "useful" or not? I mean if we really think about it this thread isn't very useful; this exact same argument is happening over in the Healer forum, with the exact same circular logic going around and around. If anything this thread is redundant.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

For your first part, that is directly what I was talking about. If you are in a party of 4, and one person complains that the healer is not DPSing then that meets that requirement.

For your dichotomy point, I can see where you are coming from - but we really have no evidence to support what the 'average' is. I consider not playing well to be playing bad. I consider DPSing as a healer to be playing well (or at least trying to), and thus if you aren't you are playing poorly. However, I can agree that we can say instead of bad/poor - the word is average. However, it's very unfortunate if that is the case. I see it like a math problem, say we are presented with the following question 20x20 = ? I'd say people who can't do this are bad at math, but let's say the average person can't do it. Is it the case that if they cannot do that question that they are not bad? I used a simple math question, because DPSing in a dungeon is simple. We could obviously make the question more difficult and say what is 543823 x 42342, and I imagine most people cannot do this - and I'd accept the premise that these people are average. So, I guess it all comes down to perspective. Do you view DPSing in a dungeon as a difficult task like my 2nd math problem, or one like the first?

Last part reiterates, we don't know what the average is :\ From personal experience, the average definitely DPSes.

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I think that fundamentally we agree.

Yes, if someone in your party thinks you should be dpsing and you don't want to (and your party needing only light heals makes it obvious that you can) then you are bad. I think players should use their whole tool kit but above all else I think players should care about doing their part to be a good teammate. Being a good teammate means being willing to adapt to your party's wishes. Also, your party should be willing to adapt to yours. For example, if you say you are new to healing and don't feel comfortable switching back and forth to dpsing, I can respect that.

As for the rest of what you are saying, I will further clarify something: I do personally think that healers that won't dps are bad and even if that was the average, I'd still think personally that it was bad. My argument is just that it is not an objective thing and needs some context. The context is the group one gets and whether most healers dps. As you say, most healers DO dps and most groups expect them to dps.

The whole gist of my original argument is this:

It would be acceptable if someone (as a healer) refused to dps if certain conditions were met (e.g. no one cares, the content can still be cleared, etc.). In reality, those conditions will rarely be met. Therefore, you should dps.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Well, it sounds like reason, but then you get into the concept of bad and good players and how they should be treated.

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It's fair to say that all players should be treated equally, that is a given. I believe the actual argument lies in the fact that the players who choose to play as a Healer and utilize their entire job's ability kit are considered good while players who don't are considered less so. The majority of the ornery attitude comes from them not wanting to be called poor players. It's barely about what they should and shouldn't do at this point. Also, I only replied ultimately to make this thread longer.

And to add onto the last post, I don't think actively choosing to play your job poorly is ever excusable. Flat out refusing to do something for any reason is nonsensical if it would be to the benefit of the other players in a group for you to do so. That's being both a poor teammate and a poor player.

Kaurie it's a troll.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

And to add onto the last post, I don't think actively choosing to play your job poorly is ever excusable. Flat out refusing to do something for any reason is nonsensical if it would be to the benefit of the other players in a group for you to do so. That's being both a poor teammate and a poor player.

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Does this explain why JP players can pug A3S and NA Statics are still wiping?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Does this explain why JP players can pug A3S and NA Statics are still wiping?

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You should check their reaction time when it comes to play action games!
They train for years to achieve that level of speed...
Look at e-sport turnaments and you see the difference, only a few NA/EU players can match their speed...

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Does this explain why JP players can pug A3S and NA Statics are still wiping?

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It's got more to do with the fact that NA DPS players aren't held to the same standard as JP DPS, so it's harder for healers to carry them. o3o

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/151...-popcorn-o.gif

Is this still going on??? If I'm healing and there's plenty of time between heals (and i don't mean 1-5 secs) I'd switch to cleric stance and cast a stone or two with a dot. If I'm healing heavily because my fellow healer decides to go full on dps, I'm not stopping healing and wasting mp that I may need for later.

If I'm by myself, I may just dps. Maybe. Doesn't mean I will, because I don't have to. If a dps has to ask a whm or other healer to pick up their slack then they're obviously not doing their job right and passing the blame for not being able to follow up on their role's requirements. Your dps people, do it. I'm a healer for a reason. You want a healer to dps? (passes controller) Here ya go, heal and dps while I nuke the boss with my blackmage. Be my guest. Easiest part for any boss if you ask me.

Healers are expected to throw dots?? If you needed more dps, the dev teams would've gave us more dps slots over healers or tanks. 4 dps is enough, you don't need 4 1/2. So what I say to every dps who asks me to attack a boss during a raid fight or dungeon, " Hey, do you want to heal while I dps. Sound good to you? No? Then let me do my job, and you do yours." And no, its not the healers job to dps, its to keep the tank and dps alive. Those skills I have are for when dps can't do their work right or if the tanks fall off an arena and the boss has little hp left. Cleric stance, Stone 3 away. That is all.

farkkk u guys are still going??? ya'll need to move on, seriously....

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

This is no longer about healer dps. This is now about getting to 100 pages.

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^ i will contribute towards the 100 pages

I'll put this here instead of the gif thread to help out page count:

Boss fight without healer helping with DPS.

http://www.benslock.com/images/boss.gif

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Originally Posted by Cromi_Jobly

I'll put this here instead of the gif thread to help out page count:

Boss fight without healer helping with DPS.

http://www.benslock.com/images/boss.gif

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Actually it just seems like they're lacking a tank. :/

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It's got more to do with the fact that NA DPS players aren't held to the same standard as JP DPS, so it's harder for healers to carry them. o3o

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/151...-popcorn-o.gif

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Healer carry? You're hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Healer carry? You're hilarious.

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Well, yeah, our average 400-600 DPS on single target makes up for lacking 900 as a pure DPS class. It's kinda ironic that healers can contribute with more than 1/3 of the whole damage of some DPS, while doing another job.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Well, yeah, our average 400-600 DPS on single target makes up for lacking 900 as a pure DPS class. It's kinda ironic that healers can contribute with more than 1/3 of the whole damage of some DPS, while doing another job.

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Wait wait wait......are you saying a Healer should DPS? Guys it's over, we won!

Kidding. If you're saying that a DPS in Raid content is doing 700ish then they need to not be in Raid content. The idea that Healer's are "carrying" those groups with their DPS is incorrect. The Healer DPS is there in order to overcome the extremely high DPS check, especially so at lower iLvls. A Healer is never carrying an Alexander Savage clear, they're helping meet the overall requirement of the content. Healer DPS at this point actually isn't even required due to the gear available, but it's always welcomed because why make things harder for everyone on purpose?

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Wait wait wait......are you saying a Healer should DPS? Guys it's over, we won!

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No, I'm saying the only reason we unfortunately need to DPS in some cases, is because of lacking DPS players. Expecting a healer to put up damage to cover your low numbers is more lazy than a healer that does not DPS.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

No, I'm saying the only reason we unfortunately need to DPS in some cases, is because of lacking DPS players. Expecting a healer to put up damage to cover your low numbers is more lazy than a healer that does not DPS.

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D......did you not even read the rest of my post?

Judah's last statement is debatable, you'll still be clutching to meet the Dps check more often than not if your healers don't pitch in at all. It's bad enough that even yoship said that Ilvl wasn't enough to supplement it for your typical group

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Judah's last statement is debatable, you'll still be clutching to meet the Dps check more often than not if your healers don't pitch in at all. It's bad enough that even yoship said that Ilvl wasn't enough to supplement it for your typical group

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I can agree with that assessment. They admitted to making the content curve exceedingly steep, and I would say the majority of parties attempting to clear at this point in time do in fact need to rely on some amount of DPS from the healer to supplement the Raid-wide requirement. I would still say that the breathing room is there, however, due to the large increase in availability of higher ilvl equipment, the Thordan's Ex weapons especially. If you have geared DPS with that weapon doing sub 1100 DPS that's a time when you need to be looking elsewhere for a new player, not relying on a healer to bridge the gap in skill.

For all intents and purposes though, you shouldn't need thordan weapons and i210 body, head and pants to meet the Dps check without healer dps

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Well, yeah, our average 400-600 DPS on single target makes up for lacking 900 as a pure DPS class. It's kinda ironic that healers can contribute with more than 1/3 of the whole damage of some DPS, while doing another job.

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TBH I fail to see the irony since healers have the tools to do so. I feel the word you were looking for is "AMAZING"

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

For all intents and purposes though, you shouldn't need thordan weapons and i210 body, head and pants to meet the Dps check without healer dps

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The Healer DPS was there so that groups could meet the DPS check at the lower ilvl, I said that the DPS check at this point shouldn't be a problem for players in that high gear, so I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I only dps once I meet the following criteria:

1. The tank doesn't suck or is undergeared, sorry but don't expect me to dps if you don't know how to use defensive cooldowns, I also won't dps if you do big pulls and your health is dropping quickly, if you can survive for more than 5-10 seconds without me needing to throw heals at you then I'll cleric stance and dps.

2. I know the fight well and it's not my first time clearing. I'm not going to dps if I don't know what to expect next if it's a boss fight.

Also if the dps are rude to me about my healing I let them die and berate them for being incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

D......did you not even read the rest of my post?

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I read the rest and you made it sound like healers are trolls for not dpsing during high end raids. Not our fault you don't meet requirements, place the blame where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Oh you must be referring to the part where I said that if the DPS player's numbers are low they need to not be in raid content? Yep. I can see how that could've been misconstrued as a shot at healers. Then later when I said that the healer DPS isn't necessary what with the higher ilvl items being available? Yep, definitely a shot at healers there. The part where I said that healers could help the group out by DPSing to make the fight less strenuous? Yeah, wow, what a dick I am.

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Uhh, actually it was this part.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Healer DPS at this point actually isn't even required due to the gear available, but it's always welcomed because why make things harder for everyone on purpose?

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It's not making it harder for everyone else. If its already hard for a dps to meet requirements for a raid then its their fault, not the healers. Healer dps in raids is a luxury, not a requirement.

100 pages we done it guys!

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

It's not required, so I'll not help, no matter what!11! It's never my fault!1111111!

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:\

That's what I understood reading your posts, after all the sugar coat ofc.

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Originally Posted by Remus

100 pages we done it guys!

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Finally. 200 is the new goal.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Insinuating that if the healer doesn't heal the group and everyone dies due to lack of heals then its never their fault.

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Think before you type, also why don't you study the other posts before spouting drivel you don't even understand?

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Actually I did, but you still made it seem like Healers make it harder for everyone else.



If you don't need us then why are we making it harder for you?

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If you state that Healer DPS is a luxury, it could be assumed that the reason you refer to it as a luxury is what? That it makes the DPS check easier to meet. Therefore the conclusion may be drawn that if a healer is actively choosing not to DPS when completely capable of doing so then they would, in fact, be making things more difficult for the other players as their margin of error decreases. Thus, the statement that you are actively making things more difficult for the group directly correlates with your capability to deal damage and heal actively as opposed to not utilizing the time available to you in order to do so. If you can't comprehend that, I don't know what else to say.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

TBH I fail to see the irony since healers have the tools to do so. I feel the word you were looking for is "AMAZING"

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Agreed! That's how I feel as a MT Warrior also xD

Gratz! This Thread hit 100!

Hmm, healer/tank dps was a requirement to clear savage on release as the dps check was higher than the total potential of the dps jobs at the ilvl (180-190 & Ravana/law weapons) at that point.

And while it's not required at this point, savage necessitates not only responsibility to your role, but maximizing your jobs potential. People who refuse to maximize their ability for no other reason than (I don't feel like it) aren't really going to make it very far in savage raids and there are many players available who are willing to replace those who are not.

All that being said, outside of savage it doesn't really matter that much as everything is passable without it.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Think before you type, also why don't you read the other posts before spouting drivel you don't even understand?

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Why don't you read the thread before trying to look smart? I already said 1000x that if you need to heal first, then you should do so. You are trying to justify your lack of DPS though, after reading your posts sounds like you don't DPS at all. Instead of helping your team, you hide behind a green icon. sad.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Why don't you read the thread before trying to look smart? I already said 1000x that if you need to heal first, then you should do so. You are trying to justify your lack of DPS though, after reading your posts sounds like you don't DPS at all. Instead of helping your team, you hide behind a green icon. sad.

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We're friends now.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Misconception

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Well that sounds better, but maybe you understood me wrong, again. If I state healer dps is a luxury, then that would mean you don't need it, it just makes things easier for others. Never means I won't do it, or that theirs no reason to which I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp that concept.

Thordan EX for example, if I have time to dps I would, like that one knight charging its attack and needs to be lowered to a certain amount of hp, yep, I'd help with that, massive time gap for me to attack and prep for oncoming attacks. As for in more intense moments I'd decide to take priorities. Healing above damage output. Period. What your assuming is healers "purposely make it harder", in which I can't speak for everyone, but if I'm saving mana for later heals then its for good reason, not "purposely making harder for others". From what you make it sound like is that if a dps can cast a heal spell to keep the tank alive, then that dps is lazy for not using their ability to heal when its available to them. Do you understand now?

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Originally Posted by Eothas

Why don't you read the thread before trying to look smart? I already said 1000x that if you need to heal first, then you should do so. You are trying to justify your lack of DPS though, after reading your posts sounds like you don't DPS at all. Instead of helping your team, you hide behind a green icon. sad.

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If I'm healing and there's plenty of time between heals (and i don't mean 1-5 secs) I'd switch to cleric stance and cast a stone or two with a dot.

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Uh, actually I do dps, I said like twice in my previous posts. ^ read above post too

You keep retreading your side of the conversation and backtracking on what you said. You just admitted that a healer DPSing makes things easier. I stated that if you have the option to do so, such as when I specifically said that when you are not utilizing the time available to you to do so, you are in fact actively choosing not to. Not making things easier by choice is equivalent to making things more difficult. They're literally two ways to say the same exact thing. At no point did I say that you had to make a choice between circumstances which would require you to heal or DPS. That is something you somehow construed out of thin air in order to pad your argument.

If you have time to deal damage, barring circumstances that would require you not to, and you choose not to then you are making things more difficult. Do not use small quotes followed by a bunch of misrepresentation as to what I actually said. It makes you seem foolish because you're taking everything out of context and applying it to what you just described as a completely different scenario. If you can't DPS, why would I say you're bad for it? I specifically stated that it only applies to the times where you can. You offering your own interpretation of what I said and representing it as what I said makes you look like a biased idiot.