Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

You are making no sense, you even said your self "there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool." plus you are only 50, you do not really have room to speak on the manner if something needs nerfing. WHM has the lowest mp regeneration and you want to hurt them more? that's just rofl worthy.



That is not an opinion, it is trolling, did you read his post carefully? that makes no sense what so ever.




Right there, he is fighting is own opinion so i called him a troll, I do not see the big deal. Also flare is like 1/2 the mp as holy ... **** (with current max mp of a blm and using mp like they should, anyway)

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Since we've resorted to name calling, I'm going to go ahead and say your reading comprehension and understanding is troll worthy. I really don't even feel like dumbing down what I have already said anymore for you. Just keep believing I'm a troll, I don't even care. I can appreciate bswpaytons tone and arguments but you aren't worth an effort.

Edit: I can see you took flare, I definitely should have stated blm fire aoe more clearly. I was talking about BLM Fire II with Astral Fire III up (2652 MP). That is my fault for not being clear enough there. That's all I'll allow myself to give you.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

on a side note and im not trolling Ive had more mp issues with astro dpsing like gravity spam than I ever had on whm , but Im fully aware that whm has the most issues with mp tho, but in my experience its been astro for some reason

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I can't stress how nigh broken it is to be able to ewer yourself, hit ASTshroud and extend both. If you're carrying the damage in a dungeon and spamming a lot more Gravities than you would like, don't be afraid to skip a balance and feed yourself instead. It's pretty much a guaranteed full MP bar from near nothing.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I can't stress how nigh broken it is to be able to ewer yourself, hit ASTshroud and extend both. If you're carrying the damage in a dungeon and spamming a lot more Gravities than you would like, don't be afraid to skip a balance and feed yourself instead. It's pretty much a guaranteed full MP bar from near nothing.

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I admit that I totally failed to realize the fact I could and should use ewer on myself haha I was just always burning them so this was def an issue I placed on myself haha. I guess I was just always lookin for the next spread are card buff forgettin to use ewer on myself if i ever ran into mp issues. So it def was a player error on my part ha totally slipped my mind

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Originally Posted by Taika

What you're suggesting is that instead of actively contributing, healer play would involve more of doing nothing at all (since they wouldn't have as much MP to DPS as much and they're already covering the healing requirement). How would that be any better? Or "strategic"?

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Certain spells could do less damage, but provide a decent debuff on the enemy to be considered worthwhile to keep on.
Think of the astrologian's Disable, a -10% action damage debuff - You reduce the effect down to 5%, but can be applied with a certain single target attack spell. The duration is somewhat about 15-18 seconds, but doesn't come with diminishing returns when reapplying it.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Still, it's not wise to suggest healers should be able to do something less (DPS in your suggestion of increasing MP costs), since that's not beneficial in anyway. If you wish to change healers to focus more on something else than DPS, then the suggestions should focus on that "something else" and how that can be increased in gameplay and battle design.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Another problem IMHO is that there is too many mechanics in this game that are simply dodge and win. There is not enough unavoidables that dish out damage forcing a healer to heal in this game. There could even be stages of avoidance, a spot where you take 100% dmg, 75% dmg, 50% dmg similar to meteors that scale depending how far away you are but will always hit you.

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There is tons of ways to increase healing but in terms of class and battle design I've already stated my opinion. There could even be a gloom debuff that drains hp slowly at first but gets stronger as the raid progresses up to enrage. More unavoidables, more player suffered DoTs, more low damage unavoidable AOEs similar to Nidhoggs scream. There's lots of things they could do, the question is when does it become too much, right now I honestly feel like its not enough but there are times in really bad groups that it does feel like enough but I assume thats mostly due to failure to dodge properly. We can't assume every party will have lots of dodge failures, there should be something else that is dishing out damage to keep healers doing what they should be doing the most "Healing".

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

There is tons of ways to increase healing but in terms of class and battle design I've already stated my opinion.

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Healers can heal for around 20% of a tanks max HP every GCD noncrit just spamming a single spell. That's 40% max HP every GCD in a full party. Around 20% of everyone's max HP every GCD by having both spam AoEs. A bit more to account for fairy/regen/CDs. Do you realize how insane it'd be to up the damage to match current healing levels? How insanely stressful healing would become? You can catch a glimpse of what you're asking for in PvP.

I find the very notion sooomewhat insane. But whatever it takes not to get nerfed or class complexity, huh?

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Since we've resorted to name calling, I'm going to go ahead and say your reading comprehension and understanding is troll worthy. I really don't even feel like dumbing down what I have already said anymore foryou. Just keep believing I'm a troll, I don't even care. I can appreciate bswpaytons tone and arguments but you aren't worth an effort.

Edit: I can see you took flare, I definitely should have stated blm fire aoe more clearly. I was talking about BLM Fire II with Astral Fire III up. That is my fault for not being clear enough there. That's all I'll allow myself to give you.

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My reading comprehension is fine, tyvm, you are the issue:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I'm still of the opinion that DPS spells on healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less. Single target spells should use 10% or more MP, especially stone III. DoT spells should be very low cause those are perfect for downtimes healing.

Another problem IMHO is that there is too many mechanics in this game that are simply dodge and win. There is not enough unavoidables that dish out damage forcing a healer to heal in this game. There could even be stages of avoidance, a spot where you take 100% dmg, 75% dmg, 50% dmg similar to meteors that scale depending how far away you are but will always hit you.

I really think though, that dps spells should cost alot more mp cause this will not only bring more skill into play but more strategy cause a healer has to decide whether or not DPSing is going to make or break their MP pool and cause a wipe. Other people in the party will probably stop blasting healers as much for not DPSing for anything other than DoTs.

Also: Get rid of clerics stance, there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool. This lets a healer time manage their spare MP and more freely toss out a DPS spell or DoTs when they feel confident their MP can spare it.

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You can't just say "oh WHM DPS spells need to cost more mp, then give an arguments of "Get rid of clerics stance because (right now) because WHM DPS spells cost too much mp.

Also Mp costs are not treated equal, BLM gets mp back like water. WHM has a hard time getting mp back, on top of the high mp costs that you admit?

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

People are wanting to heal more, this would only be part of a solution. I already stated more damage should be coming out. More focus should be on Dots between heals and their high DPS spells should be for spare MP and if anything DPS clock mechanics that they can spare a larger section of their mp pool.

Edit: I don't expect people to agree with my opinion but at the same time, assumptions and trying to make me look like an idiot is unacceptable. I'm done here, I've already stated my two cents. My opinion on whm may not hold as much weight since I didn't play it for 3.0 but My thoughts are still the same even for scholar.

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We are not assume, it is clear you do not have the experience with what you are saying here, perpetually with WHM. For a scholar only player giving out suggestions and hurting the endgame WHM is rofl worthy. When you give an opinion, you should have some backing and explaining how you got there, not some half bake idea because you hate WHM because you only leveled SCH or whatever your issue is.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Why do people keep assuming my experience level. I have played all of the things you have mentioned on scholar and in every single one of those, I have literally just spammed DPS spells most of the time with side healing. If there was any MP management at all, it was because there was a horrendous amount of deaths from people who are too lazy to dodge or at the final phase of diabolos where everything is mostly a gigantic clustorfk of a mess.

There is alot of skepticism towards accuracy towards 4.0. Considering the future of accuracy I'm not sure if that even matters.

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You have no accuracy medls, you have NO ROOM, to speak on changes like this, you simply do not have the experience. You have not DPS in salvage because you do not have the accuracy for it. More so you have not done all those things as a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Flare is literally all your MP to cast what're you talking about, that's how the spell works.

Anyway. Dude has an opinion. You can disagree, but at least respect it, geez. Not everyone who disagrees is out to get the poor, persecuted healers and make them stay in the kitchen when they want to do more and more damage every patch.

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Talking about flare being used properly, the mp cost is going to change with how you use it.

Again, are you reading his post? It makes no sense. You can't say "WHM spells cost too little mp right now, then say , we need drop cleric stance because whm spells cost too much mp? That is not an opinion anymore. Meaning, he is contradicting himself for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Again, are you reading his post? It makes no sense. You can't say "WHM spells cost too little mp right now, then say , we need drop cleric stance because whm spells cost too much mp? That is not an opinion anymore. Meaning, he is contradicting himself for whatever reason.

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Because cleric stance becomes useless and skill bloat when you don't need to dps as much, annoying even when you are recasting DoTs between healing which I've stated numerous times. I never once implied that currently clerics stance is useless cause of mp costs. You are just reading into it differently apparently.
You continue to discredit my opinion of whm when back in 2.0 holy spam was about the same it is now. You continue to call me a troll because you are unable to see an opinion my way... You continue to have writing/reading deficits. I don't know where to start or to end with you. I feel like I'm talking to a potato. I'll just agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Healers can heal for around 20% of a tanks max HP every GCD noncrit just spamming a single spell. That's 40% max HP every GCD in a full party. Around 20% of everyone's max HP every GCD by having both spam AoEs. A bit more to account for fairy/regen/CDs. Do you realize how insane it'd be to up the damage to match current healing levels? How insanely stressful healing would become? You can catch a glimpse of what you're asking for in PvP.

I find the very notion sooomewhat insane. But whatever it takes not to get nerfed or class complexity, huh?

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So what, you want to lower their healing capability instead to make content more variable with healing? I thought making healing more stressful was the idea, so they would heal more and dps less. There's obviously a point at which it becomes to stressful but are we really that close right now? I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

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That's a lot of silliness over there. Flare being all MP aside, and factoring in "X amount of BLM MP" when their MP is functionally infinite, is on a different scale.

But more than that you're still insisting this person is a troll and contradicting themselves when they're articulating their argument in a polite and concise way, and explaining thoroughly why their idea works how it does. It's functionally "They say Clerics is too hard to toggle, just make it harder to DPS in a different way by making the mana bar what they juggle instead of Clerics". You're just shooting everything down that's not "Give healers more DPS we want more DPS" and discrediting the person you're arguing with because they're not a level 60 healer like you, like it's a prerequisite to present any sort of idea. It reminds me of how children will hold their breath until they pass out when they get angry.

There's no reason to create a method for more healers. There's actually too many already.

I leveled in HW as a WHM, but as I got closer and closer and eventually got to 60, I quickly realized there was no spots open for the. Sure you get a 1-3 minute queue in DF. But what do you do once you've got all 260 gear? You roll a DPS and not Tank because they're even worse off than healers.

The only thing that needs to happen is making the DPS queues shorter by allowing more into the duties to reduce their queue times. Its ridiculous that 4man content requires only half the group to be DPS when 24 man stuff requires 5/8's