[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Tri-Disaster, remove bind add contagion effect.

Retool Garuda to AoE pet
Retool Ifrit to Single Target pet
Retool Titan to a better emergency tank mainly add a provoke type attack.

Mikeylikesit idea

Add Shiva Egi as a cinematic type spell where her Diamond Dust causes a bind effect with damage.
Add Leviathan Egi as a cinematic type spell where it's Tidal Wave cause a push back with damage.
Add Ramuh Egi as a cinematic type spell where his Judgement Bolt cause paralyze with damage.

Summoner specific Limit Break; LB1 - Odin Egi (Gungnir), LB2 - Alexander Egi (Judgement), LB3 - Bahamut Egi (Mega-Flare)

Remove stun and silence from all pets!

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we were starting to get somewhere and then you come with this. Disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

we were starting to get somewhere and then you come with this. Disappointed.

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http://media1.giphy.com/media/ANbD1CCdA3iI8/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Einheri

SE needs to fix bonus traits all around. They are all pretty useless besides crit. Det it just crappy atk/spl power may as well just have a few more main stat. "No one" wanst skill/spell speed. Does any one seek piety? It sorta just taken as it comes right? Parry is mediocre at best.

Get rid of the stat bonus allocation and add a trait line to specialize in.
Recast- chance for a weaker second attack/heal
Splash- Chance for a small damage/heal to effect those near target
Crit- More Crits
Crit Power- Bigger crits
Determination- +Mitigation Tank stat!
Avoidance- What I just said. Mc Hammer Tank stat!
Regenerate-Hastens Mana/Tp regen

Dungeons/Raids can drop armor with your main stats + Materia slots how many based on ilvl that a crafter can creat using PVE content drops or soul binding, so every one can have fun! Now you can customize your play style! S T Y L E!

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Can players only choose one or multiple?Maybe you can add DOT duration to that list, yes your version of tri-disaster saves times as is but it would help with rotation if DOTing multiple targets and allow more chances casting other spells like your recast and splash traits do.

Do not think the tanking stats for pets would mean much unless they were very potent. Also why would people pick it over other stats for end game when pets probably never be used as tanks unless they were relegated to taking care of adds.Maybe you can combine both determination and avoidance into one trait, just like you did with regenerate.I would also suggest the same for both of your criticals. The less redundant categories the better. Since players would pick the absolute best instead of second best like 90% of the time. Gotta try to make each category equally worth it over the other.

@Delicious
I was just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

I meant the traits to for every class, a whole rework instead of the 30 pts you get to put into say INT.

My idea would be gear would have materia slots instead of the seemingly random bonuses we have today. This way you can continue to improve yourself. I would allocate it like the 30 PTS now so you can stack all crit or go recast. On gear you choose what to put in so you can spread yourself out with 4 stats or stack 2. Really what you like and works for your class. There will be people who min and max who say SMN stacks this and that and there will be the people who like the feel or utility of another.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

@Delicious
I was just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

I meant the traits to for every class, a whole rework instead of the 30 pts you get to put into say INT.

My idea would be gear would have materia slots instead of the seemingly random bonuses we have today. This way you can continue to improve yourself. I would allocate it like the 30 PTS now so you can stack all crit or go recast. On gear you choose what to put in so you can spread yourself out with 4 stats or stack 2. Really what you like and works for your class. There will be people who min and max who say SMN stacks this and that and there will be the people who like the feel or utility of another.

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Seems like having this system instead of point allocation would be more specific in what you wanted to increase, however i think it would be better if we got these more specific increases in a FFXI style merit system so each class could have even more specific stats catered to their different abilities or roles. Such as having paladin able to cast their utility spells easier or to take less dmg(split up into more than just 2 of course) or to have cnj being able to use it's stone/aero/water abilities to more effect but you are sacrificing the ability to heal as efficiently since you didn't increase those instead.

However this system would makes jobs a lot less predictable even with your version and you would end up wondering what stats each player has(in the case of recast or splash) so it would need to be something that players could increase but not such be an overpowering increase that players would totally miss out on not leveling them up.Yes materia could make up for anything didn't level, and that's why the system could potentially work...however the normal stats would be completely neglected then if materia didn't increase those and only base gear did. Unless you plan to include a category that covers every base stat...but what would be the point of changing it? You would just end up just adding a few extra categories for practically the same system we have now.

At best these categories would cover multiple stats like determination does instead of increasing stats individually allowing players to get a lot stronger with every increase allowing players to be more versatile. However this system can easily be overpowered when you have to increase multiple stats as a standard.

The Summoner's role without being attached to anything is AoE Spike Damage that's what defines the Summoner. What we have now is a merger of two types spell casters that don't go together the Summoner and Warlock(Sabatuer). Summoner is aligned with good and the Warlock is aligned with evil that's why as Damgae Dealers they have elemental spells as oppose to disease line.

Summoner role should be sustained Elemental DoTs while the Pets are AoE Spike Damage.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner's role without being attached to anything is AoE Spike Damage that's what defines the Summoner. What we have now is a merger of two types spell casters that don't go together the Summoner and Warlock(Sabatuer). Summoner is aligned with good and the Warlock is aligned with evil that's why as Damgae Dealers they have elemental spells as oppose to disease line.

Summoner role should be sustained Elemental DoTs while the Pets are AoE Spike Damage.

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How many times have you jumped from conclusion to conclusion now? I've lost count.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner's role without being attached to anything is AoE Spike Damage that's what defines the Summoner. What we have now is a merger of two types spell casters that don't go together the Summoner and Warlock(Sabatuer). Summoner is aligned with good andthe Warlock is aligned with evil that's why as Damgae Dealers they have elemental spells as oppose to disease line.

Summoner role should be sustained Elemental DoTs while the Pets are AoE Spike Damage.

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What defines a summoner is the ability to summon creatures and bind them to his will. Hence the name, summoner. Hence the theme that's been present in a few games where characters have had to fight something before being able to summon it. Hence the whole part of the game where we have to call forth the egis and fight them before we can summon them. Your attempts to compare and contrast a warlock with a summoner are misguided, since you (conveniently) leave out the other 2 specs, demonology and destruction, neither of which are about diseases. The whole concept that warlocks are about "DoT and debuffs" was created in response to 2.0 and the release of Unstable Affliction, and not really based on the lore of the class. The class's design is fine. Clearly, you don't like it. Go play another class or game.

What do summons do they come and rain down AoE Spike Damage. The Summoner should get Summoning Magic and be able to Transform into the Primals as well as compel Primnal Powers to aide in battle. SE should adapt the Demonology Warlock for the Summoner since it's closer to an MMORPG Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

What do summons do they come and rain down AoE Spike Damage. The Summoner should get Summoning Magic and be able to Transform into the Primals as well as compel Primnal Powers to aide in battle. SE should adapt the Demonology Warlock for the Summoner since it's closer to an MMORPG Summoner.

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I don't recall a summoner ever transforming into a summon. I also don't recall Yuna's or Lightning's summons raining down death and destruction when summoned. I don't necessarily disagree with the view summoners should be more like Demonology warlocks, provided you realize that that spec now revolves more on Metamorphisis and less on the pets. The pets are still secondary to the player, and still mostly on autopilot.

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Originally Posted by Delily

I don't recall a summoner ever transforming into a summon. I also don't recall Yuna's or Lightning's summons raining down death and destruction when summoned. I don't necessarily disagree with the view summoners should be more like Demonology warlocks, provided you realize that that spec now revolves more on Metamorphisis and less on the pets. The pets are still secondary to the player, and still mostly on autopilot.

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The Summoner wouldn't transform into Primal it would summon the Primal by getting absorbed by the Egi. I realize the Summoner would revolve around Summoning Magic instead of Pets if they adapted the Demonology Warlock.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner wouldn't transform into Primal it would summon the Primal by getting absorbed by the Egi. I realize the Summoner would revolve around Summoning Magic instead of Pets if they adapted the Demonology Warlock.

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you literally said the summoner would "be able to Transform into the Primals as well as compel Primnal Powers to aid in battle".

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

you literally said the summoner would "be able to Transform into the Primals as well as compel Primnal Powers to aid in battle".

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• Akiza
• Having a clue about the topic at hand

Pick one.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

• Akiza
• Having a clue about the topic at hand

Pick one.

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This thread was starting to get back on track two pages ago...so close. :(

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner wouldn't transform into Primal it would summon the Primal by getting absorbed by the Egi. I realize the Summoner would revolve around Summoning Magic instead of Pets if they adapted the Demonology Warlock.

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Again, Summoners can't summon the actual Primal because Primals are cray-cray. They can only summon Egis, which are a small fragment of the Primals power, so small that they won't go crazy and start absorbing/corrupting aether and tempering mortals.

I think what akiza meant was if your character wanted to summon primals instead of lesser pets like egi, that your summoner would temporarily disappear to offset the fact that you had a more powerful pet and you would have to control the pet directly.

The only problem with this idea is that if primals were to powerful that they would be used all the time instead of normal summoner. However this can be offset if they had a long cooldown timer so you would play normal summoner for long periods before using a special ability that allows you to transform for a period of time like 1 or 2 mins?

Otherwise you would play summoner like normal if you decided to use the lesser pet.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Again, Summoners can't summon the actual Primal because Primals are cray-cray. They can only summon Egis, which are a small fragment of the Primals power, so small that they won't go crazy and start absorbing/corrupting aether and tempering mortals.

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I discussed this with dragonfire earlier in this thread that lore reasons are silly to consider half the time.While it seems like SE would never do it for this reason....SE could easily just make up some quest dialogue that explains some miraculous plan to allow that to happen.

"We finnally figured out after all these years on how to turn the tide on the primals!You can attach your soul to the primal limiting it's influence only to you. Therefore the summoner himself can absorb the corruption and embody the primals full form and use it battle! Only you, warrior of light, can resist it's wily charms!"

Something along those lines just better written :P. Not really keen on the idea of becoming primals or whatever just saying if SE wanted to add it in then no past statement saying otherwise or lore reason would probably stop them.

What if summoners pet's can be sacrifice with a 60 second cool down and gets 1 free instant summon on the next pet for 5 seconds.

Ifrit will explode dealing massive aoe damage and dots
Titan will jump on one target and reduce their damage dealt by 10%
Garuda will cast slow/haste in the raid for 5 seconds =p

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Originally Posted by Ojikuh

What if summoners pet's can be sacrifice with a 60 second cool down and gets 1 free instant summon on the next pet for 5 seconds.

Ifrit will explode dealing massive aoe damage and dots
Titan will jump on one target and reduce their damage dealt by 10%
Garuda will cast slow/haste in the raid for 5 seconds =p

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This is a step above quick-summon idea that was mentioned earlier. It kind of reminds me of necromancers corpse explosion from diablo games but instead of just doing damage it adds various powerful abilities to use your pet for, a skilled summoner would use this ability just before it died and it wouldn't require any 6 second recast cool down.

I like it.

Edit:To further advance this idea, there should be a small burst of damage that is worth multiple auto attacks so players would not complain that their overall DPS is being lowered by missing out on them because it still would take a second to resummon...then autto attack again even if the casting time was instant.Ifrit already has dmg however so i don't think it would apply to him.

yes
Please make the summoner feel like a summoner from every other Final Fantasy game. Our pets should be doing most of our damage, and they should look like primals and not egis.

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Originally Posted by Rarkon

yesPlease make the summoner feel like a summoner from every other Final Fantasy game. Our pets should be doing most of our damage, and they should look like primals and not egis.

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No, the designers want the player to be doing most of the damage, not simply be a proxy to a pet.

I would say "yes" BUT ... I have a feeling everyone has a different "vision" on HOW the Job needs to be rework. ><

Edit: Oh, give me back my Carbuncles. WHY YOU TAKE AWAY?! ;_;

Yes.

This job has just about nothing to do with the Summoner we know from every other Final Fantasy game. Also, Tri-Disaster is just that. A disaster.

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Originally Posted by Mindcl0ud

No. I certainly hope not. One of the only problems with the class is Bane's AoE range. Other then that at late game the class is unique the rotation is good and fun. They do pretty darn good DPS too, but get a few utility spells ( in combat res? )

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lol

The only way to change the Summoner is to over haul the class system. Hate to say this but take WoW's class system for example every class has 3-4 specializations which allows them to have hybrid classes like the Summoner, Scholar, Red Mage, Blue Mage and Paladin. SE should either expand the current class system by adding 3-4 specializations to every class or remove the Base Classes from the Jobs to bring it into 3.0.

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Originally Posted by ZanaAmariyo

Yes.

This job has just about nothing to do with the Summoner we know from every other Final Fantasy game. Also, Tri-Disaster is just that. A disaster.


lol

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this game=/= those games. dont know why people keep using that logic.

How i'm starting to feel about this post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXzlw-_vbjU

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...fficespace.gif

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

this game=/= those games. dont know why people keep using that logic.

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Because its a logic that will eventually convince SE to change their minds, that is why people on this thread keep feeling it necessary to act ignorant towards each other and actively trying to censor others despite their insistence that this thread is a waste of time.

If these ideas are a waste of time...then by all means feel free to choose to stop posting negative reactions to people wanting to discuss their ideas. However, there are many others who wish to see change. Maybe it won't happen....but it shouldn't matter to others if we discuss it. It is silly that people take it upon themselves to try to actively stop discussion that they don't approve of from happening...it's like they are afraid that SE might listen.

The problem with the Summoner is it's Arcanist 2.0 there is no real difference between the Arcanist and Summoner beside the Egi. SE needs to add polarity between the Classes and Jobs treating the Jobs like a separate specialized tree rather like WoW where every class has 3-4 specializations. Summoner should get it's own separate specialization from the Arcanist and the same with Scholar.

Vote:Yes

The problem I have is that summoner is a cabalist/warlock archetype, which does not in itself make it bad, the archetype has been around mmos for a good long while. Summoner was never really this aspect of a job before they have in one way or another have always been pet focused, I'm not saying that this job needs to be like 11 or any of the console type summoners. I would personally just like to see the summoner go 50/50 damage with his pet where a lot of the skills focus on amplifying or altering the pet moves. Give us situations where swapping between multiple pets through out a battle can be beneficial not forced to use garuda 90% of the content for one skill.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Because its a logic that will eventually convince SE to change their minds, that is why people on this thread keep feeling it necessary to act ignorant towards each other and actively trying to censor others despite their insistence that this thread is a waste of time.

If these ideas are a waste of time...then by all means feel free to choose to stop posting negative reactions to people wanting to discuss their ideas. However, there are many others who wish to see change. Maybe it won't happen....but it shouldn't matter to others if we discuss it. It is silly that people take it upon themselves to try to actively stop discussion that they don't approve of from happening...it's like they are afraid that SE might listen.

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You're giving these threads a bit too much credit in terms of how influential they are. Also, it's not fear of change, it's the repetitive nature of the posts, given that the developers have responded.

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Originally Posted by Delily

You're giving these threads a bit too much credit in terms of how influential they are. Also, it's not fear of change, it's the repetitive nature of the posts, given that the developers have responded.

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If they see enough of these threads across multiple languages and forums then i think you are maybe the one who is giving too little credit in how these forum can be influential. MMO's always emphasized importance on community and change. Community helps pay the bills and keep people playing and change is what allow those communities not to get bored. Therefore they release new jobs,level caps,expansions, and content. As long as they follow this formula their will come a point where they will need to up the power behind summoner to still be balanced to other jobs in order for them to stay relevant, maybe they won't add new summons or anything like that...however it wouldn't be the first time this game has made radical changes.

Let the developers respond again, keep these threads fresh in their minds next time they decide to add something new to each job for an expansion in order to bring those subscriber numbers back up.

Just because developers don't have any current plans to change it, doesn't mean they won't change their minds in the future. A lot developers claimed lots of things wouldn't happen in their games. Hell i thought FFXIV was going to be shut down and never succeed...but it did succeed. Each time people tell me it's a waste of time...each time i am convinced that we are on the right track since you care enough to respond in the first place.Why do you care if we are wasting our time? It just seems to me that you are worried that the developers will eventually change their minds. If you are not then none of you would be trying so hard to lambaste people for their opinions.

It is not your place to moderate the forums, let the mods decide if our threads are too repetitive or not.

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Originally Posted by Hells

PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE SMN due to the QQ of the folks that can't learn to play it correctly.

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I see this response a lot when people request changes to "core" game play. This has nothing to do with the "ability" to play correctly. I agree with OP that the summoner class is not a "summoner", its a DoT class with a dinky pet. Should have just made it a "warlock" type caster who focuses on DoT damage and introduce the real summoner class later.

With all that said, no one can deny that it IS GOOD, but for a lot of players it's a huge disappointment how the summoner job turned out.

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Originally Posted by Levis

I see this response a lot when people request changes to "core" game play. This has nothing to do with the "ability" to play correctly. I agree with OP that the summoner class is not a "summoner", its a DoT class with a dinky pet. Should have just made it a "warlock" type caster who focuses on DoT damage and introduce the real summoner class later.

With all that said, no one can deny that it IS GOOD, but for a lot of players it's a huge disappointment how the summoner job turned out.

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Not a single person in this thread has demonstrated what a "real" summoner is.

You also quoted someone from 9-13-2013.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

If they see enough of these threads across multiple languages and forums then i think you are maybe the one who is giving too little credit in how these forum can be influential.

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You're absolutely right. However this issue, as far as I know, is only happening on English forums (Japanese forums don't have any complaints). So that's 25% of the playerbase who even cares, and then there's the even smaller percentage of that 25% who even play ACN/SMN/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Not a single person in this thread has demonstrated what a "real" summoner is.

You also quoted someone from 9-13-2013.



You're absolutely right. However this issue, as far as I know, is only happening on English forums (Japanese forums don't have any complaints). So that's 25% of the playerbase who even cares, and then there's the even smaller percentage of that 25% who even play ACN/SMN/SCH.

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There is a factor you are not considering. How many people WANT to play a more badass summoner.

Clearly SE knows that new jobs will entice players to return or start playing. It's why they added jobs that people never thought they would have added in FFXI:Blue mage,Gambler(corsair), geomancer,etc.

SE is a business and they DO have personal pride in making this project succeed. They will do things for pure fan service, they know their fan-base. How many fights,minions, references in game are just pure fan service? How many people join FFXIV because of ninja or dark knight? How many people will subscribe any number of months to try out the new and improved summoner? You do not look at things from their perspective, you are only looking at the here and now and only thinking that the 25% you mention are the only people that matter.

There are countless people who do not play summoner at all because it's not interesting enough to warrant their attention. I lost count after 30 something in the past month alone me discussing things with others who do not even post on forums on how summoner is hugely disappointing,boring, or just plain not "cool enough". SE can't just look at the players they already have, they also are a business and have to either find ways to keep players subscribed by changing/adding new abilities to jobs through expansions or add new jobs so they continue to compound the time spent on this new job as long with playing other jobs. Hence the cross class abilities and experience bonuses for leveling other jobs in that category.They want you to level horizontally and vertically. Changing and adding new abilities to summoner that significantly changes the job is a real possibility in the future because it will entice more players play for longer and get new subscribers who weren't interested because their favorite job of past final fantasy's was never done justice in their minds.

As for what people on other forums think i do not know. Maybe you speak Japanese/German/etc. but i do not. However who is to say that these people would not enjoy these changes? Should only level 50 arcanists be able to talk what they want out of summoner? What about all the others who do not play arcanists but due to differences in culture or ways of thinking they rather play a different job rather than speaking up and wasting time on a forum?

I guarantee that if summoner became new and improved a lot of people, maybe even you would enjoy a new summoner that had some ingenious ideas on how to make the job more fun to play and be more pet focused. Some people in this thread even complained that too many people would play summoner instead of the 25% balance they have now if the job became a lot more powerful.(however their assumption was based on SE's inability to be able to balance the job properly)

I mean look at rogue/ninja, even though a lot of base abilities mirror lancer...in the end they feel the job is more "fun" to play due to a simple thing as class style or aesthetics in general.It's cool to play as a ninja, or to roleplay as a thief type.Its fun to them. SE does not just worry about already existing players they also worry about potential players as well.It is why they add new jobs. It is why they add new content. It's to keep players playing AND get new players to play.That means enticing people to play summoner where they haven't before.

If anything they don't care as much about the 25% that already played summoner to death, because those people are more interested potentially in playing new jobs...and only new content for their job in a expansion will make them want to play a job they already played to death again. People who already played summoner more often than not have a shorter lifespan than those who haven't because they are tired of the monotony. It's part of their business model for you to try new things so you keep yourself subscribed.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

There is a factor you are not considering. How many people WANT to play a more badass summoner.

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I'm not going to quote your entire post, but it's all well said :)

I got my summoner to 50 just in case it does change for the better, right now it's sort of a pipe dream I'm putting on the backburner.

I think it's right to want things to change for the sake of creativity and pure fun. I think that White Mage, Warrior, Ninja, Black Mage and Monk are fantastic Jobs, of course they aren't perfect, but they are fun and feel right. I think compared to those jobs the Summoner, paladin, Dragoon, bard and Scholar could use some more work.

Disclaimer: In my opinion :)

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

*snip*

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Telling SE how to run their business model, is not more apt to make them listen to you. Particularly not when you do it as a wall of text. You want to talk business, do you think it makes sense to spend time translating massive posts?

If you truly want them to listen, the first step is learn to condense. Writing a non-English based company an long essay in English is unlikely to grab their attention, due to the resources they will need to expend to even interact with it.

On the forums here, all you're doing is inviting the scrutiny and criticism of other forums goers. You want to catch the developer's interest. In a short, and to the point manner, submit it to the Live Letter questions. There it has a much better chance of actually getting seen by the Devs.

And there was me happy in thinking that this thread had died...

Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

z

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I agree that forums can be influential. That's only if there is an outcry of enough of a magnitude (pre 2-1 WAR). That's what I replied to. I can only read English and a fair amount of Japanese, and out of the 2 languages only the English forum has constant complaints about Summoner and it's always by the same few people.

The one Summoner thread was created by the same person on the English forums (Spellbinder) and that's the only thread the Japanese people even looked at. A little note is that Japanese don't create 2000 new threads for the same topic, they find the old topic and upvote it if they like it. So, as interesting as your post is, it didn't really relate to what I said.

On a side note; how many people would you turn off by changing the dynamic of Summoner? There's no way to know. It's a gamble. Make Summoner more pet based (50/50) and gain some people, lose time, lose other people or leave Summoner as is and devote time into a different pet class?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

The one Summoner thread was created by the same person on the English forums (Spellbinder) and that's the only thread the Japanese people even looked at. A little note is that Japanese don't create 2000 new threads for the same topic, they find the old topic and upvote it if they like it. So, as interesting as your post is, it didn't really relate to what I said.

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Just thought I'd chime in here and say this is, in my opinion, what greatly sets us apart from our JP counterparts when it comes to supplying feedback to the developers. Granted there are also threads dedicated to the discussion of Summoner spellspeed and Tridisaster on the JP forum now, the thread I created there a year ago is still on the first page, with posts as recent as 11/13 where people come in to contribute their thoughts and ideas on the job. I tried the same here, but the thread sadly fell into disuse after about 50-60 pages.

There are possible adjustments (mostly quality of life fixes) that I think would address a lot of problems with Summoner (e.g. gear itemization, mana issues, Egi balance in light of future Egi). I'd love nothing more than to start a new feedback thread and discuss issues and possible changes within reason that would not significantly alter the way Summoner plays, because I think it's fine for the most part.

Sadly, it would probably be taken as more rambling and clutter in the DPS forum.

I liked your thread, in both languages, because it addressed something reasonable. It's simply too bad there are too many people who want ridiculous, sweeping changes instead of trying to work within the framework of what we already have. It's a crying shame.

Peolple want sweeping and dynamic changes to the way Summoner plays because 3.0 is coming soon. An Expansion is a great time to separate and add polarity between Classes and Jobs.