The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They may have intended to, but Yoshi admitted that the DPS checks are too stringent for item levels alone to be enough, which suggests they mistuned the content.



Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Moving-Forward

If item levels aren't going to be enough for them, that means DPS from additional sources is necessary; i.e., healer and tank DPS.

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However, they've stated that they do not take Healer DPS in to consideration with their tuning. They do, however, consider Tank DPS.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

However, they've stated that they do not take Healer DPS in to consideration with their tuning. They do, however, consider Tank DPS.

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My point was that they screwed up. Yoshi-P admitted that they overtuned them, which means that sources of DPS they don't normally consider are required for Savage. That includes both STR-tank DPS (since they presumably balance around Fending accessories) and Healer DPS.

It's important to remember that Yoshi is not on the battle content design team: he oversees that team as producer, but the actual design and tuning of the content falls to other people. So when he states the general design philosophy, it's still entirely possible for the team to make mistakes that run counter to that philosophy, which seems to have happened with Savage.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They may have intended to, but Yoshi admitted that the DPS checks are too stringent for item levels alone to be enough, which suggests they mistuned the content.



Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Moving-Forward

If item levels aren't going to be enough for them, that means DPS from additional sources is necessary; i.e., healer and tank DPS.

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I see.
Now I'm really curious how they calculated the DPS needed when they made it in the first place.

All I see is crying, almost all of you want rewards without any work. Relic is too much grind, raiding is too hard. And you will get what you ask for, because of all the crying. But what it does for humanity and for you as a person, is it teaches you that you don't have to work hard to achieve something. You become lazy and spoiled. So thank god and SE that they made these difficult encounters and wanted people to work harder, communicate more, learn their class more, plan and prepare more, they were teaching players that they have to fight in order to win. But now the next tier will be easier because of all the cries so you achieved what you wanted. Enjoy your victory.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

However, they've stated that they do not take Healer DPS in to consideration with their tuning. They do, however, consider Tank DPS.

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Not sure if you've been paying attention to all the posts around the one you quoted or not. But the statement Yoshi made is not only linked, but quoted in full. Also the statement entirely modifies the bit you have cherry picked to say. It vastly changes it.

^ This is so true, im sick and tired of people who want everything without working for it. It seems like everything in this game is welfare.

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Originally Posted by hagare

I see.
Now I'm really curious how they calculated the DPS needed when they made it in the first place.

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I will use A3S as an example since so few have cleared it.

Using FFLogs as a reference for maximum class potential - it appears that they calculated A3S as a minimum ilvl of 203-205 without including healer DPS.

~ Max potential minus Healer DPS at at rate of 88% for gear.

This is with classes pushing their max potential, lining up buffs, pot usage, and Tank in DPS stance using as much DPS gear to meet HP limits. This will still just barely meet a win during Enrage cast.

- Without Tanks optimizing for as much DPS as possible I'd suspect that A3S was geared towards i206 at maximum play. Which is basically getting as much gear as you can get without beating A3S and still just barely meeting Enrage.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

My point was that they screwed up. Yoshi-P admitted that they overtuned them, which means that sources of DPS they don't normally consider are required for Savage.

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Just to give a little view:

We are a little 2 evenings a week group. We finished the coils before next tier. We finished A1S and A2S within the first 6 weeks.

Currently we are still working towards to finish A3S. DPS wise: A1S we finish around the second jump. A2S we are also finishing a good time before the enrage gets close. Gear wise there is not much more we can get better. But when I look into the A3S 7 man videos, our DPS players are around 30% behind their DPS players.

Do you really think ist about "sources of DPS they don't normally consider"?

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just to give a little view:

We are a little 2 evenings a week group. We finished the coils before next tier. We finished A1S and A2S within the first 6 weeks.

Currently we are still working towards to finish A3S. DPS wise: A1S we finish around the second jump. A2S we are also finishing a good time before the enrage gets close. Gear wise there is not much more we can get better. But when I look into the A3S 7 man videos, our DPS players are around 30% behind their DPS players.

Do you really think ist about "sources of DPS they don't normally consider"?

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Her statement directly says that it was overtuned. So that answers your last question. Also, it has been cleared with the gear currently available, so I'm not sure what "just to give you a little view..." from a struggling team adds.

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Originally Posted by Mizaeron

All I see is crying, almost all of you want rewards without any work. Relic is too much grind, raiding is too hard. And you will get what you ask for, because of all the crying. But what it does for humanity and for you as a person, is it teaches you that you don't have to work hard to achieve something. You become lazy and spoiled. So thank god and SE that they made these difficult encounters and wanted people to work harder, communicate more, learn their class more, plan and prepare more, they were teaching players that they have to fight in order to win. But now the next tier will be easier because of all the cries so you achieved what you wanted. Enjoy your victory.

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I feel that you are failing to capture the reasoning behind the people you are complaining about. For example, with the Relic, no one is asking for this to be handed over. They are simply complaining that the tasks for doing so, the quest design, and the overall implementation felt lazy, uninspired and uninteresting.

With balancing, sometimes things are just too difficult for a player, and it has little to do with them trying and more to do with them not being as skilled at that task as someone else. That, I believe, is the case with Savage. It was tuned too hard, but that doesn't mean people want it to be easy content.


Out of curiosity, why are we talking about Savage in this healer DPS discussion? Anyone who is doing Savage in a static has healers who DPS, that isn't really the question up for debate. I thought it was people found in Duty Finder - so places like Void Ark, RavEX, Expert Roulette etc?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Out of curiosity, why are we talking about Savage in this healer DPS discussion? Anyone who is doing Savage in a static has healers who DPS, that isn't really the question up for debate. I thought it was people found in Duty Finder - so places like Void Ark, RavEX, Expert Roulette etc?

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you know how it is with these topics xD
one thing leads to another and the topic gets derailed :p

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Out of curiosity, why are we talking about Savage in this healer DPS discussion? Anyone who is doing Savage in a static has healers who DPS, that isn't really the question up for debate. I thought it was people found in Duty Finder - so places like Void Ark, RavEX, Expert Roulette etc?

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Tangent due to people bringing up Yoshi's (somewhat out of context) quote about healer DPS not being required. It's all intertwined anyway, since the necessities of Savage naturally affect people's expectations for less challenging content.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Out of curiosity, why are we talking about Savage in this healer DPS discussion? Anyone who is doing Savage in a static has healers who DPS, that isn't really the question up for debate. I thought it was people found in Duty Finder - so places like Void Ark, RavEX, Expert Roulette etc?

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I think it's because there are many Raid groups with healers who don't DPS, or don't DPS to the extent that they should. I would not be surprised if there were many healers lurking this very thread because they would like to justify their choice not to DPS even in Raid Tier Content.

I believe it's that very reason that A3S broke so many statics and for the animosity in DF for healers that don't DPS. Because of how Alex was tuned there were so many DPS that were trying to push every ounce of DPS from their class for even just a 20 DPS gain, and as others have noted, it would be easier for a Healer to output a measly 200 DPS than for each of 4 DPS to push an additional 50 DPS when at the higher tier of their class.

So basically those who have cleared Alex have healers that DPS where those that don't are probably stuck on A3S, which causes this push for the Healer Meta of DPSing all over the game much more than it was for previous endgame with lower DPS checks.

It's all related in some manner as can be seen by how hard the idea is being pushed this Raid Tier. Where as before it was only the difference between those who clear content and those who sell it, now it's the different between those who clear content and those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I'm not sure what "just to give you a little view..." from a struggling team adds.

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Look a little bit closer what I exactly did quote and what I did mark bold. Your post did miss the point entirely.

Its a quite easy answer when you add 1 and 1: There is always room for improvement on the side of DPS players. To many teams got too comfortable to use healer DPS instead of improving the DPS on the side of the damage dealers. When the devs say they have calculated the fight without healer DPS at a specified iLvl, than it is possible to do this without healer DPS at this iLvl. Just look at the bunch of theards in this forum discussing about healer DPS.

Its not about "which means that sources of DPS they don't normally consider are required for Savage". Its about to recognice: DDs are not performing that good as they think.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I think it's because there are many Raid groups with healers who don't DPS, or don't DPS to the extent that they should. I would not be surprised if there were many healers lurking this very thread because they would like to justify their choice not to DPS even in Raid Tier Content.

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There are—many of them raided in ARR when healer DPS wasn't really required/expected to the degree that it is now. Healer DPS meant faster progression back then, but gearing up DPS members enough with tomestone weapons and the like was often enough to clear the content in a more relaxed way. Current Savage is a whole 'nother ballgame, though, and it's not particularly surprising to me that there are raid healers who don't like (or perhaps can't focus enough—I fall into this latter category myself, being able to DPS fine in 4-mans but not having the head to do so in 8-mans) to DPS in raids who are dissatisfied with the current difficulty and requirements of Savage.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Its not about "which means that sources of DPS they don't normally consider are required for Savage". Its about to recognice: DDs are not performing that good as they think.

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You're largely missing the context and point of my post, which was specifically in regard to players claiming that because Yoshi said they don't tune with healer DPS in mind that it must be the case that healer DPS is never needed for Savage.

DPS checks in Savage are tight even for groups with DPS that play at high levels. 7-man clear teams for AS3 are undoubtedly using i210 weapons and gear, much of which is only available if you've beaten AS3, so asking DPS to perform to those levels without having beaten AS3 is silly. As a result, the DPS has to come from somewhere else: STR-tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Okay buddy. You can take 45 minutes to finish a dungeon to get your tomes, while I run the dungeon twice and get double the tome/time spent ratio.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...45 minutes? If the DPS are halfway decent a dungeon doesn't take more then 20.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

It doesn't take 45 minutes to run a dungeon, if it does there more wrong with the group then a healer not wanting to dps. Even with below average dps should be able to get it done in 30 minutes.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

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Haha so true.

Though... Back in August/September, when I'd run expert roulette for Fractals/Neverreap, i quickly found out that I'd be better going with my SMN in a 10 min queue than tank or healer in an instant queue. I'm not being hyperbolic here.

Nearly every run of my SCH/PLD would take 35-45 minutes (and I'd be DPSing with my SCH :|). Then I'd pop on my SMN and enjoy a 14 minute run.

While I think a good healer will DPS, it really does matter more if your actual DPS are competent or not.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

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It feels like you're calling "20 min to finish a dungeon" hyperbole. If that's what you think, I don't want to play with you.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

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The reason I said 45 mins was because sometimes when I do solo quee expert as healer, both dps and the tank are so incompetent that even WITH my dps the dungeon takes 45 minutes. If I was a heal onry healer, that would have been even longer.

I judge and hate bad play in general, but this topic is about healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

It feels like you're calling "20 min to finish a dungeon" hyperbole. If that's what you think, I don't want to play with you.

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Well my advice is don't read with your feelings. I can't help but laugh that he was making a hyperbolic statement to make a point, and the conversation gets derailed by ppl flaming him for his choice of wording and time xD.

/welcome to the forums

P.s- don't worry, I wouldn't offer you a chance to play with me in the first place #redundancy ;D

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Originally Posted by Immut

yeah that's bullshit. you really haven't noticed they lie to make bad players feel less bad?

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Well, my bullshit detector just did a full scale deflection before melting, but only after I read the above sentence.

You need to back up any accusation of lying you throw against the developers and/or producer, otherwise you're shoveling steaming piles of bullshit yourself.

The fact is that the developers have explicitly stated how they balanced the content and it didn't include healer DPS. Sure, they assumed damn near perfect execution by the DPS and Tank, along with a very high gear level. So, if your group isn't geared and skilled as they assumed in their balancing of the content, you need healer DPS to make up the difference. That practical reality for under-geared and less than perfectly skilled groups, does not alter the way in which the content was actually balanced.

Finally found the quote I was looking for in which Yoshi explicitly states how they calculate raid damage and addresses the inclusion of healer DPS by world first groups and the like. Here it is;

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http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...ia-Event-5-19) Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set. Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans. This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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What some players don't realize (or try to overlook), is that if a run is taking 16~20 minutes without healers damage, it is because your DPS and maybe Tank are doing a great job, probably doing more than 75% of their potential. Meanwhile a "pure healer" is doing 40~50% of their potential in most situations, probably less.

Can you imagine if all DPS players suddenly adopt this "I'll do the bare minimum" mentality? How much time would take to complete a dungeon? Yes, thats the infamous 45 minutes run.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Then I'd pop on my SMN and enjoy a 14 minute run.
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14 minutes run independently of your party members? Probably can be done, but I think this only applies to SMN. (and the tank needs to do big pulls).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Nearly every run of my SCH/PLD would take 35-45 minutes (and I'd be DPSing with my SCH :|)..

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Different experience here. Most runs take around 20 minutes max (DPSing with my WHM) I never had a 45 minutes run with my healer in EX roulette. It's always around 30 minutes max if both DPS are bad. But without a doubt would take 45 min without my DPS.

In the rare occasions where both DPS are good, takes around 10~13 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

What some players don't realize (or try to overlook), is that if a run is taking 16~20 minutes without healers damage, it is because your DPS and maybe Tank are doing a great job, probably doing more than 75% of their potential. Meanwhile a "pure healer" is doing 40~50% of their potential in most situations, probably less.

Can you imagine if all DPS players suddenly adopt this "I'll do the bare minimum" mentality? How much time would take to complete a dungeon? Yes, thats the infamous 45 minutes run.



14 minutes run independently of your party members? Probably can be done, but I think this only applies to SMN. (and the tank needs to do big pulls).




Different experience here. Most runs take around 20 minutes max (DPSing with my WHM) I never had a 45 minutes run with my healer in EX roulette. It's always around 30 minutes max if both DPS are bad. But without a doubt would take 45 min without my DPS.

In the rare occasions where both DPS are good, takes around 10~13 minutes.

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I may have the date range wrong, this may have been in July? It's when most people had like 170-180 ilvl. 45 minutes was definitely the longest and 14 the shortest.

Back then:
I'd say average run on SMN = 16 or 17 minutes
I'd say average run with my SCH = 30-35 minutes
I'd say average run with my PLD = 35-40 minutes

It was really quite ridiculous.

Well, that can be taken in a few ways.
1. Healer dps is freebie dps.
2. Healers are part of the team and should help dps to overcome hurdles.
3. Healer dps is not included in dps check calculation, as they may be doing something else at this time. ie. Recovering MP, topping up and shielding team etc.

In the iend as I have said, the point is really moot as we don't know so many of the variables. Also this was in regards to how they tune dps checks in raids, not how classes, or instances are supposed to be played.

Nowhere does it really hint how they want roles played.

If one thought about it, you can tell dungeons are tuned much lower, so there is signifigantly more oppertunity for the healer to be contributing to dps. And that is what is being discussed.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Finally found the quote I was looking for in which Yoshi explicitly states how they calculate raid damage and addresses the inclusion of healer DPS by world first groups and the like. Here it is;

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As has been noted in previous posts (which also reference the quote you found, in full), while Yoshi did in fact state this, he also admitted that the DPS checks in Savage were tuned too highly, such that it's not simply a matter of item levels not being high enough for a wider majority of groups than the top echelon of raiders. That is, Yoshi admits the DPS requirements in Savage are currently overtuned such that groups are needing more than just better gear to clear the fights: they're needing additional DPS (one source of which is that "last resort" healer DPS he mentioned in your quote).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I may have the date range wrong, this may have been in July? It's when most people had like 170-180 ilvl. 45 minutes was definitely the longest and 14 the shortest.

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Oh my fault, I did not read the part of your post specifying date, it makes more sense now.

This is all that needs to be said about healer dps:

1) You can't objectively call healers bad for not dpsing because there are times where it might be okay for a healer to not dps.

a) For example, if their dps is not needed to clear the content.
b) And nobody cares that they aren't dpsing.
c) And they don't care to push their job to the limits of what it can do.

2) However, it is not likely that those situations arise. Generally people:

a) Want to clear the content, not bash their heads against it because the healer won't dps.
b) Want to clear content more quickly and won't be happy with a healer that makes things take longer.
c) Want to do their best and/or play with others who also want to do their best.

3) Furthermore, even if the dps were 90% (let's say) responsible for the speed of the run, it doesn't mean that the other 10% is irrelevant. It's a terrible outlook to say "because so-and-so is mediocre, I'm going to be mediocre too." Personal accountability means asking "what can I do right now to make this situation better?" Making a situation better, even by 10%, is not nothing.

4) It is selfish to neglect the rest of your team. Yes, you might be able to get away with watching Netflix while your faerie heals the whole dungeon. However, we are playing a team game and your team likely expects more from you.

5) The best players set the standard for everyone else. If a healer can heal and dps for Alexander Savage, you can heal and dps for Sastasha normal. You have a choice whether or not you want to try to emulate great play, but most groups will not thank you for emulating mediocre play.

In conclusion, I can think of no reason to support the decision to not dps as a healer (assuming it is safe to do so). Most groups will want or expect you to. It will make unbeatable content beatable and beatable content faster. The decision to not dps as a healer doesn't make you a bad player, but not caring about the rest of your team does.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This is all that needs to be said about healer dps:

1) You can't objectively call healers bad for not dpsing because there are times where it might be okay for a healer to not dps.

a) For example, if their dps is not needed to clear the content.
b) And nobody cares that they aren't dpsing.
c) And they don't care to push their job to the limits of what it can do.

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Your premise was OK, but your reasoning seems flawed. If you are stating that all 3 must be met, then if someone is saying that player is bad then B) automatically is not met. If you're saying that any of the 3 options need to be met then for part a&c), if I don't care to push my SMN DPS limits and put out a solid 200 DPS and we take 80 minutes to run a dungeon. Would you say I am bad? I think most people would.

Further, down below you mention that the "best player" will DPS for Savage and that DPSing in Sastasha emulates "great play". This further supports the idea that DPSing as a Healer is something a good player does.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

3) Furthermore, even if the dps were 90% (let's say) responsible for the speed of the run, it doesn't mean that the other 10% is irrelevant. It's a terrible outlook to say "because so-and-so is mediocre, I'm going to be mediocre too." Personal accountability means asking "what can I do right now to make this situation better?" Making a situation better, even by 10%, is not nothing.

4) It is selfish to neglect the rest of your team. Yes, you might be able to get away with watching Netflix while your faerie heals the whole dungeon. However, we are playing a team game and your team likely expects more from you.

5) The best players set the standard for everyone else. If a healer can heal and dps for Alexander Savage, you can heal and dps for Sastasha normal. You have a choice whether or not you want to try to emulate great play, but most groups will not thank you for emulating mediocre play.

In conclusion, I can think of no reason to support the decision to not dps as a healer (assuming it is safe to do so). Most groups will want or expect you to. It will make unbeatable content beatable and beatable content faster. The decision to not dps as a healer doesn't make you a bad player, but not caring about the rest of your team does.

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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by Alahra

As has been noted in previous posts (which also reference the quote you found, in full), while Yoshi did in fact state this, he also admitted that the DPS checks in Savage were tuned too highly, such that it's not simply a matter of item levels not being high enough for a wider majority of groups than the top echelon of raiders. That is, Yoshi admits the DPS requirements in Savage are currently overtuned such that groups are needing more than just better gear to clear the fights: they're needing additional DPS (one source of which is that "last resort" healer DPS he mentioned in your quote).

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I never said otherwise, and in fact he implies exactly that in the quote I had in my post - which you correctly referenced. The fact that they overtuned the raid this time doesn't say a single thing about healer DPS being included in their balance or not. It says that the 10-15% margin that they used in their planning was insufficient in reality because execution, gear and mechanical issues are more significant factors than the 10-15% margin of optimal tank & damage dealer total DPS - hence as he said, world first groups and others looking to down the content as quickly as possible supplement the party DPS with healer DPS.

However the poster I was responding to directly charged the developers with lying to the player base. Given the evidence to the contrary, and the baseless nature of the accusation, it seemed appropriate to call the player on it, and put up the relevant quote.

I'm not arguing that Healer DPS was not needed to clear Alex Savage as it was implemented, it's clear that although the design didn't include it, the actual reality of the content made it necessary. Yoshi's recognition of this reality speaks to the truth of his original statement and the flexibility he is actually showing by recognizing the gap between reality and the original design.

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Originally Posted by Eothas

What some players don't realize (or try to overlook), is that if a run is taking 16~20 minutes without healers damage, it is because your DPS and maybe Tank are doing a great job, probably doing more than 75% of their potential. Meanwhile a "pure healer" is doing 40~50% of their potential in most situations, probably less.

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I'd say that in practice that depends on whether or not the tank is being really aggressive, tanking in DPS stance, using a full STR build and paying more attention to optimizing their DPS than they are to using their cool-downs or dodging the avoidable damage. If they are overly damage focused, the healer will *need* to spend more time looking after the tank. In which case, unless the tank is a WAR, the question is, would it be better for the tank to go turtle and let the healer do more damage, or does the additional damage output (over and above that which is done anyway to maintain aggro) of the tank outweigh that of the healer? If not then the tank needs to put their numbers and ego aside and let the healer open up their box of tricks.

In Final Fantasy Healers are equipped with MND and not MAG...
Try to attack with your staff or use black magic that is based on MAG...
There is one element which is mainly for healer and meant to be a filler - holy - "dia" and such...
Square Enix messed up the whole element wheel and we have now a light DPS who can heal, the combat is designed based on the thinking that your group do not need healing! Healer DPS became the main part and not just a "filler". Needed or not it is a fact and direct result of that strict gamedesign, point!

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Your premise was OK, but your reasoning seems flawed. If you are stating that all 3 must be met, then if someone is saying that player is bad then B) automatically is not met. If you're saying that any of the 3 options need to be met then for part a&c), if I don't care to push my SMN DPS limits and put out a solid 200 DPS and we take 80 minutes to run a dungeon. Would you say I am bad? I think most people would.

Further, down below you mention that the "best player" will DPS for Savage and that DPSing in Sastasha emulates "great play". This further supports the idea that DPSing as a Healer is something a good player does.

Agreed!

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My argument was written in a really informal way. But I think it's obvious how I intended it. By someone not caring, I meant other players in that party. I don't think someone can be called bad for not trying when they don't need to try, no one cares that they're not trying, and they can do better in the scenarios where they do try.

As for your 2nd point, it's a false dichotomy because someone not being the best player doesn't automatically make them a bad player. Yes, I do think that healers that heal and dps the hardest content in the game are better than healers that don't do these things. However, that doesn't mean the healers that don't dps are below average, since average, by definition is based on what most other people are doing.

Now if healers feel that the average player IS healing and dpsing most content, then they should ask themselves why they aren't willing to play even at that level. If you won't come up to even an average level of play, then yes, you are bad, no way around that. But if most healers are just healing, don't let the haters hate, just know that there is a higher level of play that you're not part of.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

My argument was written in a really informal way. But I think it's obvious how I intended it. By someone not caring, I meant other players in that party. I don't think someone can be called bad for not trying when they don't need to try, no one cares that they're not trying, and they can do better in the scenarios where they do try.


As for your 2nd point, it's a false dichotomy because someone not being the best player doesn't automatically make them a bad player. Yes, I do think that healers that heal and dps the hardest content in the game are better than healers that don't do these things. However, that doesn't mean the healers that don't dps are below average, since average, by definition is based on what most other people are doing.

Now if healers feel that the average player IS healing and dpsing most content, then they should ask themselves why they aren't willing to play even at that level. If you won't come up to even an average level of play, then yes, you are bad, no way around that. But if most healers are just healing, don't let the haters hate, just know that there is a higher level of play that you're not part of.

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For your first part, that is directly what I was talking about. If you are in a party of 4, and one person complains that the healer is not DPSing then that meets that requirement.

For your dichotomy point, I can see where you are coming from - but we really have no evidence to support what the 'average' is. I consider not playing well to be playing bad. I consider DPSing as a healer to be playing well (or at least trying to), and thus if you aren't you are playing poorly. However, I can agree that we can say instead of bad/poor - the word is average. However, it's very unfortunate if that is the case. I see it like a math problem, say we are presented with the following question 20x20 = ? I'd say people who can't do this are bad at math, but let's say the average person can't do it. Is it the case that if they cannot do that question that they are not bad? I used a simple math question, because DPSing in a dungeon is simple. We could obviously make the question more difficult and say what is 543823 x 42342, and I imagine most people cannot do this - and I'd accept the premise that these people are average. So, I guess it all comes down to perspective. Do you view DPSing in a dungeon as a difficult task like my 2nd math problem, or one like the first?

Last part reiterates, we don't know what the average is :\ From personal experience, the average definitely DPSes.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

From personal experience, the average definitely DPSes.

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In my experience in the Duty Finder, I'm not so sure. When queuing without a healer (either myself healing or a friend doing so), I see far more healers that don't DPS than those that do—but that's something that's going to vary based on Data Center and a ton of other factors, too.

I have been loving this thread all week, following the back and forth(and sideways; a lot of derailment if you actually read through it) and had to share with my FC healer pool. I'm not a healer myself, but they brought up a great point that I know has been echoed across a lot of pages here. Any player that does not take full advantage of their tool kit is either a) still learning or b) has not learn enough about it yet. Not utilizing Cleric's Stance would be like myself, as a Warrior, not utilizing either Defiance or Deliverance. I know some people will say Defiance doesn't count but hear me out; With an i205 weapon, and my gear ilvl being 201, I can possibly still tank any roulette duty without Defiance. Does it make the pull easier? No. Does it help my team of 3-7 ppl? Definitely no, but it is possible. Why I would do such a thing and not utilize my tool kit properly is beyond the scope of reason, in the same line as a healer not utilizing their full tool kit for any encounter. Personal playing preference is not an argument in the strictest sense here; You have the abilities, and not using them properly is making you a "bad" player. Once you learn to utilize them properly, you're being a "good" player. It's really that simple.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'd say that in practice that depends on whether or not the tank is being really aggressive, tanking in DPS stance, using a full STR build and paying more attention to optimizing their DPS than they are to using their cool-downs or dodging the avoidable damage. If they are overly damage focused, the healer will *need* to spend more time looking after the tank. In which case, unless the tank is a WAR, the question is, would it be better for the tank to go turtle and let the healer do more damage, or does the additional damage output (over and above that which is done anyway to maintain aggro) of the tank outweigh that of the healer? If not then the tank needs to put their numbers and ego aside and let the healer open up their box of tricks.

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That really depends. Well, from my experience tanks that can push good numbers (800~1k+) are really rare in DF, more rare than good DPS jobs. Usually, if they could do great DPS, I wouldn't mind giving them more attention and healing. Most tanks that can reach this mark will use defensive CDs aswell, though, so there is still plenty of time to DPS as a healer. Usually when tanks are being really agressive and don't dodge any AoE, and barely use any defensive CDs, they should indeed put their ego aside, because I doubt they would be doing good DPS in the first place.

Healer's DPS without a doubt outweight tanks in big pulls, thats why I really like PLDs that know what they are doing, even if their DPS isnt great. My personal prefference is:

Big pulls: Tank stance, use your defensive CDs, mitigate damage. If you are a great tanker that knows how to use CDs and be agressive at same time, then go ahead and stance dance with me.
Small pulls/Bosses: Be agressive if you want, specially if you can push good DPS numbers.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

In my experience in the Duty Finder, I'm not so sure. When queuing without a healer (either myself healing or a friend doing so), I see far more healers that don't DPS than those that do—but that's something that's going to vary based on Data Center and a ton of other factors, too.

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Same, most the healers I run into in the Duty Finder do not DPS.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

I have been loving this thread all week, following the back and forth(and sideways; a lot of derailment if you actually read through it) and had to share with my FC healer pool. I'm not a healer myself, but they brought up a great point that I know has been echoed across a lot of pages here. Any player that does not take full advantage of their tool kit is either a) still learning or b) has not learn enough about it yet. Not utilizing Cleric's Stance would be like myself, as a Warrior, not utilizing either Defiance or Deliverance. I know some people will say Defiance doesn't count but hear me out; With an i205 weapon, and my gear ilvl being 201, I can possibly still tank any roulette duty without Defiance. Does it make the pull easier? No. Does it help my team of 3-7 ppl? Definitely no, but it is possible. Why I would do such a thing and not utilize my tool kit properly is beyond the scope of reason, in the same line as a healer not utilizing their full tool kit for any encounter. Personal playing preference is not an argument in the strictest sense here; You have the abilities, and not using them properly is making you a "bad" player. Once you learn to utilize them properly, you're being a "good" player. It's really that simple.

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Report this guy for voicing reason in this illogical cesspool of a forum!

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Report this guy for voicing reason in this illogical cesspool of a forum!

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Well, it sounds like reason, but then you get into the concept of bad and good players and how they should be treated.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Report this guy for voicing reason in this illogical cesspool of a forum!

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Reported. What was he thinking?! No room for logic in this circus!

/endthread

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

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No.

We need 4 more pages.