SE better do something or the game will drop dead

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Here's the example of XIV. New release > major fail > Dev listens to complaint for reform --Time to input your opinion-- > release new patched up content > test drive.. rinse and repeat.

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That isn't going to work with the current roadmap timeframe. It may have been feasible when plans for 2.0 weren't set in motion yet, but as more content, especially content of this level, is getting put into the game, things become more hectic as the team can't take the time to just "sit down" and play footsie while they talk to the community and go back to the drawing board to whip up changes.

Without a test server I just don't see them being able to stay on schedule for the 2.0 release AND perform the inevitable MAJOR bugs they're going to encounter from not having a test server to use...

Really sucks.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i just have a question. i see one group telling someone to wait until something is put in to judge it and then say what they think, but when they do that the same group says well you should have said something sooner.

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I've never seen this -- Logic and common sense dictates you can't judge a book by it's cover, this is how things are more likely to end up a way you don't want if you preemptively complain about something because they could end up fixing what isn't broken but that wouldn't be known because a group of people complained just from the concept and not implementation.

It reminds me of when burger places started to introduce "weird" burger ideas and how people complained a hamburger shouldn't have x,y,z on it, yet it ended up becoming staples in most burger places because when they finally experienced it, it wasn't this sin against humanity they made it out to be just from hearing about it.

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they have to express concerns at one point or another.

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You express concerns after you have it in your hands, you can't say "this doesn't work" because of what you assume on how it works or will work or will affect things. It's fine to speak up about problems, but how can you consider something a problem when you can't even experience it? Don't people refer to that as complaining for the sake of it? Going back to the burger example, it's like complaining your burger was undercooked before you even see the damn thing let alone taste it lol.

@Jennestia

That sounds all fine a dandy if we were talking about something as complex as a new class, but these are cut and dry skills here with VERY basic functionality.

IDK, I think i'm starting to see that the average person here still paying to play doesn't give a shit what they get as long as they get something to play with...

So sad when such a first class game series only has a tiny group of informal devs with a limited amount of money and tools to rely on to prevent total destruction.

dysfunctionally functional somehow I guess.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i just have a question. i see one group telling someone to wait until something is put in to judge it and then say what they think, but when they do that the same group says well you should have said something sooner. which way do you want? do you want someone to bring up concerns before or after? you can't have it where they say nothing at all. they have to express concerns at one point or another. which time do you want it?

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This is the reason this game seriously needs a PTS. >.<

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Originally Posted by djjdiss

@Jennestia

That sounds all fine a dandy if we were talking about something as complex as a new class, but these are cut and dry skills here with VERY basic functionality.

IDK, I think i'm starting to see that the average person here still paying to play doesn't give a shit what they get as long as they get something to play with...

So sad when such a first class game series only has a tiny group of informal devs with a limited amount of money and tools to rely on to prevent total destruction.

dysfunctionally functional somehow I guess.

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Even the most basic skill can be a great unbalance of the classes in the game =)

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Originally Posted by djjdiss

Lol I don't think I could have been any clearer in post #203.

You shot yourself in post #84 by backing me up instead of what you thought was the correct way of interpreting that long list of content you quoted in the same post.

Apparently you missed the word "after" in the first sentence of that post from Yoshi.

Now on to the group inclusion issue.

I think the only time I ever intended to include you in a group was when you made post #54 and said this:



Since there were a few others sharing those same ideals, I rolled that into the "those saying that..." part of my OP as I totally disagree with the above statement due to it's subjectivity.

Other than that you were off the hook free and clear :D

Thanks love, for being a good sport and all :)

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lol ah ok now I see what you are saying. Ah well it's fine if you disagree with me, it's my opinion and that is the nice thing about opinions, everyone is allowed one and no one has to agree. I just like to go back and forth with opinions and have fun conversations, heehee. :)

I'm always a good sport lol just hope I didn't come off as mean. :P

...though I am mean... Grrr!!

...ok not really. >.>;

XD

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Because I know how much you love green.

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omg that's my favorite color! Green that is, and I'm being serious. XD

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Originally Posted by djjdiss

Seeing as how I wasn't referring to just you when I said "guys", I feel that I don't need to explain myself any further there as you weren't included in that little boat.

What you DID post was a quote from me saying that 2.0 is only a new GFX engine, lanscapes and UI and then followed it with the quoted post of the projected changes to take place AFTER 2.0 proving my statement about patch 2.0 only including the aforementioned changes.

So if I really need to spell it out, I made a post saying 2.0 isn't anything special and you replied in an attempt to say otherwise, but only ended up solidifying my original statement. ( the philosophical foot has been shot)

So with that said and all ASSuming aside

[SIZE="5"]NO[/SIZE]

2.0 isn't more than a launch of the new GFX engine and UI elements in a new rebuilt world.

2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 etc. etc. will include what's in that lengthy list of promises from Yoshi.

You're a fool if you think you're going to get that much content before or in patch 2.0.

That content will be spoon fed to you at the rate molasses bleeds from trees. This is true for any mmo. They want to keep you anticipating and paying that monthly fee as long as possible.

Since I played my fair share of MMO's, I can safely assure you that promises mean little in the mmo business.

Thank you though for posting that here, as I was too tired to look for it when I made my OP. It's just the proof I needed lol.

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I think it might be a bit to early to state what will all come with the release of 2.0 for both sides. Working on the game and 2.0 side by side gives them a year (not counting work they have already done before even announcing it) to not only overhaul the game but to also add 2.0 release content so who knows what all we will get. No point arguing it at this time.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

I've never seen this -- Logic and common sense dictates you can't judge a book by it's cover, this is how things are more likely to end up a way you don't want if you preemptively complain about something because they could end up fixing what isn't broken but that wouldn't be known because a group of people complained just from the concept and not implementation.

It reminds me of when burger places started to introduce "weird" burger ideas and how people complained a hamburger shouldn't have x,y,z on it, yet it ended up becoming staples in most burger places because when they finally experienced it, it wasn't this sin against humanity they made it out to be just from hearing about it.



You express concerns after you have it in your hands, you can't say "this doesn't work" because of what you assume on how it works or will work or will affect things. It's fine to speak up about problems, but how can you consider something a problem when you can't even experience it? Don't people refer to that as complaining for the sake of it? Going back to the burger example, it's like complaining your burger was undercooked before you even see the damn thing let alone taste it lol.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

thats what thread upon thread here demanded. There was tons of threads complaining about having too many spells. Threads of people complaining they didn't use 1/2 the spells. Thread upon thread of posters/players complaining that alot of spells didn't feel to them, to fit the class. All they did, was what they thought the people wanted.

This is why they changed stats, as well as how many we can control.

You mention that you do not like the idea of streamlining, well you should have posted during the hundereds of threads that debated this and the devs read. Now its a little late to look back and post complaints.

No offence, but when you wait till after the fact of the change, after not participating the the multitude of debates as they occured. It just comes off as alot of Johnny come lately whinning.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Storm's Path Replacement? We already have Storm's Path, and its effect is given to Whirlwind skill. The Warrior one has to be something different though.

I'm with Coglin about judging content before trying it. We can suggest anything we want, but at the end these suggestions go to Yoshida, and I don't believe that he vomits actions without thinking. Actions placed badly can be no good for a game, so you can bet he and his Battle Team are judging very firmly on the future actions. All we have to do is to try, and if we don't like something we just suggest on how to make that something even better.

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these 2 posts above is why i asked my question. one group arguing with him are doing so because he is talking about stuff that has already been changed so they say shut up because it's already been done so he should have spoken up sooner. the other post is telling him to shut up and wait until the new things are put into place and tries them out before stating them. if he listens to the correct method and tests it out then it comes to the problem with the first group telling him he should have stated concerns sooner. it's a no win situation if a concern is brought up no matter the timing.

if there was a test server the second group would be completely correct. something could be added there and people give feedback before it went into the game. some of it may be alot better than we had before just like some of the changes we have gotten so far has been. some of it may be alot worse just like some of the changes we have gotten so far. at least with a test server people would have a time frame to try something and decide whether it is good or bad. it would be a grace period where it was tested and not fully implemented.

right now you have 3 steps to bring up any concern

1. see patch notes
2. bring up concerns
3. be told to wait and try something

or

1. wait until you test something
2. state your concern
3. be told you should have said something sooner


at least with a test server you would actually give people a time frame to bring up concerns

1. see notes
2. test on test server
3. give concerns
4. concerns are taken care of
5. item put in game

my thing is neither method used with the way it is now will work because no matter if you bring up concerns before or after will the concerns be addressed because they get attacked for stating a concern. a test server would go quite a long way towards getting more bugs and issues handled before they went into the game.

I agree a test server for the public would be the best approach to iron bugs out and for players to see if their concerns are addressed. However as they are currently rebuilding the server and engine we most likely won't see it until 2.0 (I have hope that it will come). So for now we will just have to live with this sytem.

I think you are missing the point Coglin is trying to make with trying out the content first. I think the scenario is first the battle system didn't please the mass so they wanted change. The Dev's then made changes based on input. So now he's saying that we should test out this content first to see if it addresses the concerns before writing them up again. So his approach is more along the line of:

1. Voice concern.
2. See Patch Note.
3. Try Content.
4. Voice moar concern.

Of course this doesn't mean it's not a good idea to voice concern between 2 & 3. Of course the concern should be valid. In this case the Dev's are supposedly following the concerns in step 1. I then believe we should at least try the content before getting too worked up about it and telling them the step they took to address is bad. If we simply follow the voice concern > patch note > voice concern > fix patch note > voice concern, etc. I'm afraid we will not have anything tangible to try. Text on patch note and actual game play might be very different since there is a lot of things to factor in that we might not see just by reading.

To derail a bit. It could be argued that we are then paying to be the gunnies pig, but I would say what is wrong with that? Currently implementation of a test server isn't feasible so the 'testing' being pushed to live server isn't inconceivable. Most update/patches system are like this anyways right? Even if the Dev's feel it's perfect the problems won't really show up until the public get a go at it.

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Originally Posted by Douten

I agree a test server for the public would be the best approach to iron bugs out and for players to see if their concerns are addressed. However as they are currently rebuilding the server and engine we most likely won't see it until 2.0 (I have hope that it will come). So for now we will just have to live with this sytem.

I think you are missing the point Coglin is trying to make with trying out the content first. I think the scenario is first the battle system didn't please the mass so they wanted change. The Dev's then made changes based on input. So now he's saying that we should test out this content first to see if it addresses the concerns before writing them up again. So his approach is more along the line of:

1. Voice concern.
2. See Patch Note.
3. Try Content.
4. Voice moar concern.

Of course this doesn't mean it's not a good idea to voice concern between 2 & 3. Of course the concern should be valid. In this case the Dev's are supposedly following the concerns in step 1. I then believe we should at least try the content before getting too worked up about it and telling them the step they took to address is bad. If we simply follow the voice concern > patch note > voice concern > fix patch note > voice concern, etc. I'm afraid we will not have anything tangible to try. Text on patch note and actual game play might be very different since there is a lot of things to factor in that we might not see just by reading.

To derail a bit. It could be argued that we are then paying to be the gunnies pig, but I would say what is wrong with that? Currently implementation of a test server isn't feasible so the 'testing' being pushed to live server isn't inconceivable. Most update/patches system are like this anyways right? Even if the Dev's feel it's perfect the problems won't really show up until the public get a go at it.

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you may be correct. i don't recall any question related directly to the battle systems in place so to say the majority of people wanted it is misleading. there was no question on auto-attack, none on actions, none on cross class skills, and none on battle regimens. what you did see was the people on the forums complaining constantly about those issues. the forums originally were only used by people that hated what was in place. i hardly ever came onto the forums when i was enjoying the game because i was busy in game enjoying things.

remember on the forums the people that are the most vocal are the ones that are not happy about something.

you are wrong on what Coglin states though. here's exactly what is stated.

"No offence, but when you wait till after the fact of the change, after not participating the the multitude of debates as they occured. It just comes off as alot of Johnny come lately whinning."

in other words the people that didn't like something were complaining about it before and got the change we wanted to you have no right asking for it to be different than us. you should have complained before they went in. he is doing the opposite of what you are stating.

the people that liked the systems we had in place were not coming onto the forums so those voices were not heard, for the most part. they should get the same ability to speak their mind after the changes are made that the people did to cause the changes had. their opinions should be just as viable about what the players want as the people that complained the first time. the first group tried the original things and didn't like them so came in here and said so while the others were in game playing and now they are coming in to have their voices heard after trying and not liking what was put in.

i'm not saying either group is right or wrong on any issue, but it's strange to have the people bringing up issues now being labeled whiners or trolls for doing the exact same thing the people on here asking for changes originally were doing. if someone likes or dislikes a system in place now they should be welcome to post feedback as much as the people were when the forums first opened with the original systems in place.